highaltitude.log.20210205

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[00:11] <IF234> Has anyone tried balloon to balloon communication? Could there be any useful application?
[00:20] <Darkside> yeah its been done
[00:20] <Darkside> relaying of positions from a balloon over the horizon
[00:20] <Darkside> daveake: did that a while back using LoRa modules
[00:22] <IF234> Nice. what was the range, do you happen to know?
[00:22] <Darkside> dunno
[00:22] <Darkside> line of sight i guess?
[00:23] <Darkside> probably many hundreds of km
[00:23] <IF234> LoRa can do mesh networking too, right? You can have a not so large number of balloons in the air and form a mesh network.
[00:23] <IF234> maybe 100 balloons
[00:24] <bertrik> LoRa by itself is a modulation technique for digital data
[00:24] <bertrik> you have to add network stuff on top of it yourself, like LoRaWAN
[00:24] <IF234> I see
[00:26] <IF234> I was thinking maybe with 100 balloons or so, it might be possible to take pictures and then relay them to your launch location over the mesh network.
[00:28] <Darkside> dont forget that the overall bandwidth of such a system decreases the more nodes you add
[00:28] <daveake> I have a setup for relaying images from one balloon to another then to the ground. But got round to flying it yet.
[00:29] <IF234> [CIA enters the chat]
[00:29] <IF234> lol
[00:30] <IF234> that's what I was thinking. it might be possible to do this on a large scale.
[00:31] <IF234> if all the amateur pico balloons had this kind of LoRaWAN capabilities, and the mesh would expand with every launch somehow
[00:31] <daveake> As Darkside said, bandwidth decreases with network size. And we don't have much to start with.
[00:32] <Darkside> im not sur eyou realise just how slow LoRa is
[00:32] <Darkside> i think the maximum rate you can get out of it is maybe 8kbit/s
[00:32] <Darkside> and we generally run at far lower rates than this
[00:32] <Darkside> don't be fooled by the ridiculous bandwidth of LoRa... thats only there to deal with co-channel interference
[00:32] <daveake> And with 100 balloons you'd have a tiny fraction of that available.
[00:32] <IF234> why does it decrease? I was somehow thinking that each balloon will find the nearest one, and just send the packets to that particular balloon.
[00:33] <Darkside> you're all on the same radio channel
[00:33] <Darkside> so you have channel occupancy issues
[00:33] <IF234> but most of them won't even hear each other, they will be far away
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[00:36] <IF234> in fact you might even need to save the image on one node and wait for another balloon to get closer to be able to relay it
[00:37] <daveake> You can't send packets to the nearest one; you broadcast packets and all balloons in range hear it. Within that range that channel is fully occupied by that one balloon.
[00:37] <IF234> I mean with only 100 balloon. I can imagine one would need more for all the nodes to be reachable at any given time.
[00:38] <daveake> Hence the bandwidth is divided by the number of balloons within that area.
[00:38] <IF234> ok, I see. that makes sense.
[00:39] <IF234> another type of network is needed
[00:39] <IF234> back to the drawing board
[00:39] <IF234> haha
[00:41] <daveake> The best you could do, given a lot of balloons spread over a large area, with the aim say of relaying images across a large distance, is to have the balloons chat to each other to figure out the topology, and then come up with a suitable route, and then have the balloons in that route cooperate to pass packets as efficiently as possible asking that route.
[00:41] <daveake> It's complex
[00:41] <Darkside> .. or do what we do now, and develop a network of ground-stations
[00:41] <IF234> yes, that's more or less what I had in mind
[00:41] <Darkside> so you have spatial diversity
[00:42] <daveake> Indeed
[00:43] <daveake> I have thought of sending a train of balloons across Europe, sending images back to the UK balloon to balloon
[00:43] <IF234> in terms of ground stations, the most popular ones are aprs and wspr, right? with wspr you can't really send anything of that kind, and aprs doesn't have a lot coverage across the globe either.
[00:44] <daveake> But you have to have a dynamic network such as I described, to make the best use of bandwidth, as you can't guarantee which balloon will see which other. Some might go off in different directions, or burst early.
[00:46] <IF234> yes. you can even save the images on each node, and then send them when the next balloon is reachable.
[00:46] <IF234> and check for the times they were taken so you don't copy the same image over and over
[00:47] <IF234> I mean you don't need to receive them in real time
[00:50] <daveake> It's worse than that. Images are sent in packets. There's no guarantee that a packet will be received, so you need some way of requesting repeats. And that handshaking needs to be done between each pair of nodes. And the pairs can change over time.
[00:50] <IF234> there has been a lot of successful flights, multiple circumnavigations, they stayed up in the air for months. I am just wondering what is next for pico ballooning.
[00:51] <daveake> Picos tend not to have cameras. Or storage. Due to weight and power limitations.
[00:52] <IF234> yes, that's another issue. bigger balloons are of course needed.
[00:53] <daveake> Which means expensive plastic balloons, because latex ones aren't long term fliers.
[00:55] <IF234> yeah, it would probably get exponentially more expensive with size
[00:56] <IF234> but we probably don't need 10x bigger, maybe 3x - 5x
[00:56] <IF234> although the plastic itself also adds to the weight
[00:59] <daveake> Oh, and non-pico international flights above Europe are supposed to have permission in advance from each overflown country.
[00:59] <IF234> what's the size limitation?
[01:00] <daveake> 2m diameter sphere to enclose everything
[01:01] <IF234> I was actually just looking for that. Is that mentioned in the FAA regulations?
[01:02] <IF234> that would make all wspr balloons illegal
[01:02] <daveake> FAA has start(f-all) to do with European regulations
[01:02] <daveake> Sqrt()
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[01:05] <IF234> 2m is not much
[01:09] <IF234> so with all these limitations, what's next?
[01:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N1agv_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N1agv_chase
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[02:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K4UAH-4 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K4UAH-4
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[04:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3ZWI-3 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK3ZWI-3
[04:14] mcauser (cb845c0f@203-132-92-15.ip4.superloop.com) joined #highaltitude.
[04:14] <mcauser> Hello
[04:15] <mcauser> I stumbled upon this via tracker.sondehub.org
[04:16] <mcauser> I can receive daily RS41-SG radiosondes from my location.
[04:17] <mcauser> Was wondering if anyone has received their GFSK signal using a radio such as the CC1101, rather than the RTL-SDR
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[05:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ICT6 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ICT6
[06:31] <Darkside> mcarden: its been done using a lora chip in FSK mode... but i would expect superior demod performance on something like a SDR with a decent frontend
[06:31] <Darkside> oh wait, hes gone
[06:31] <Darkside> an australian too..
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[08:01] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HERA_THREE after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HERA_THREE
[08:01] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hera-three-test after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hera-three-test
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[09:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03AB5SS-12 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AB5SS-12
[09:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB6TOU-13 after 0318 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB6TOU-13
[09:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD2KDD-15 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2KDD-15
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[10:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SA6BSS-8 after 0316 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SA6BSS-8
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[10:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 034FSKTEST after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=4FSKTEST
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[11:42] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
[12:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3ZWI-3 after 037 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK3ZWI-3
[12:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SITS-JS3 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS-JS3
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[12:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD9PII_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD9PII_chase
[12:37] <daveake> SITS-JS3 seems to be flying. Did lockdown finish early?
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[13:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BANGBUS_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BANGBUS_chase
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[13:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03W3UAV-15 after 0320 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W3UAV-15
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[15:17] <SA6BSS-Mike> for whoms interested :) So I released a aprs boad today, standard 6 cell configuration
[15:17] <SA6BSS-Mike> normal solar startup and down is around 17° ,
[15:18] <SA6BSS-Mike> on this flight I put a slightly larger magnet (then last time) and tilted the cells more moderately, maby 20°
[15:18] <SA6BSS-Mike> the magnet is a 0,5gram 5mm x 2.5mm which points the board to the south on witch the cells are tiltes
[15:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> *tilted, this configuration made the board run down to 4.5° solar :)
[15:24] <PE2BZ> Nice! The last position was the 4.5 degrees ?
[15:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes
[15:28] <SA6BSS-Mike> 4.48°
[15:31] <PE2BZ> You sound sure about that ;-)
[15:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BZ-RTTY-5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BZ-RTTY-5
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[15:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N6RRY-11 after 0317 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N6RRY-11
[15:45] OZ1SKY_Brian (~OZ1SKY@5.186.79.28.dhcp.fibianet.dk) joined #highaltitude.
[15:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD2VGT-2 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2VGT-2
[16:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DH3SUP-4FSK - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DH3SUP-4FSK
[16:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD2VGT-1 after 0317 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2VGT-1
[16:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03wspttn1 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=wspttn1
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[18:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-80 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-80
[18:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> PE2BZ: sorry, I was wrong, its was 4.52° slurp
[18:17] <PE2BZ> How can I ever trust you again ;-)
[18:17] <PE2BZ> https://pasteboard.co/JMYWa6I.png
[18:17] <PE2BZ> somebody into FT24 ?
[18:17] <PE2BZ> That[ FT8 with triple bandwidth
[18:17] <SA6BSS-Mike> :)
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[19:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W5KUB-24 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W5KUB-24
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[20:12] <Jay13> Hi everyone newbie after advice with HAB Thanks.
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[20:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 034FSKTEST after 036 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=4FSKTEST
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[21:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K4UAH-4 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K4UAH-4
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[22:06] TIBS01 (~tibs-mobi@82-132-227-98.dab.02.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:06] <TIBS01> im backkk
[22:07] <TIBS01> the server is still up
[22:07] <TIBS01> http://doppy.ddns.net:5000
[22:07] <TIBS01> i was getting a ddos attack
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[23:00] <Darkside> TIBS01: yeahhhhh y'know i never really intended that web interface to be exposed to the iternet
[23:00] <Darkside> internet*
[23:01] <TIBS01> thats ok
[23:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[23:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N2NXZ_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N2NXZ_chase
[00:00] --- Sat Feb 6 2021