highaltitude.log.20201028

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[02:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK3XIN-2 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK3XIN-2
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[06:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LUX - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LUX
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[10:09] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SITS-2 after 0313 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS-2
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[11:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-80 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-80
[11:14] <agg> bit late now, but we really chose the wrong crc16 for ukhas telemetry
[11:15] <Darkside> oh?
[11:15] <Darkside> i know theres other CRC16s, but what makes CCITT particularly bad?
[11:15] Nick change: fl__0 -> fl_0
[11:16] <Darkside> i dont think we see many false-positives, if any at all?
[11:16] <agg> we've definitely seen a few false positives over the years, but given the extremely low data rate it's not so surprising
[11:16] <agg> there's a bunch of problems with ccitt but a big issue here is actually not an inherent problem but one from us using it
[11:17] <Darkside> oh?
[11:17] <agg> "crc16-ccitt-false" as what we use is called processes bits of the bytes MSbit first
[11:17] <agg> but we transmit bytes LSbit first
[11:17] <agg> one property of a 16-bit crc is it should be able to detect _any_ burst error up to 16 bits long
[11:18] <agg> (which means: any error where the first and last bits in error are at most 16 bits apart, with any number of other errors in between them)
[11:18] <Darkside> so this is more of an issue with it being used with RTTY
[11:18] <agg> almost all our errors are burst errors*, so having a long burst detection is great
[11:18] <agg> unfortunately by processing the bits the wrong way around to how they're sent, the burst is split up, and a 16 bit burst on the wire turns into a 24 bit burst in the crc, which might not be detected
[11:19] <agg> if we'd used "crc16-ccitt" instead of "crc16-ccitt-false", for the exact same computational cost, we'd be able to detect all 16 bit bursts 100%
[11:19] <Darkside> ahh :P
[11:19] <Darkside> oh well, not an issue for me > _ >
[11:19] <Darkside> (plus i'm actually using FEC)
[11:19] <agg> separately if we'd used a better polynomial than ccitt, we'd have up to a few orders of magnitude better undetected error rate, though for our message lengths it's not clear if we'd get a better hamming distance
[11:19] <agg> but the main error is getting the bits the wrong way around
[11:20] <agg> leaving a lot of error detecting ability on the table
[11:21] <Darkside> so, yay RS232
[11:22] <agg> i mean, rs232's least-significant-bit-first is not really a problem and is super widely used
[11:22] <agg> just you need to also do your crc lsbit first
[11:22] <agg> so long as they match you're ok
[11:22] <agg> (but we should probably also have picked a better polynomial anyway)
[11:22] <Darkside> or maybe use a modem that doesnt use RS232
[11:23] <Darkside> and has FEC
[11:23] <agg> eh
[11:23] <Darkside> i mean, doesnt use that framing
[11:23] <agg> there are definitely some reasons to use a byte-framed protocol like rs232, much as i have railed against the 20% inefficiency in the past
[11:23] <agg> is your thing synchronous?
[11:23] <Darkside> sychronous?
[11:24] <agg> as in, all the bits just stream after the start of the frame
[11:24] <Darkside> it has a sync word at the start, then the frame yes
[11:24] <agg> rs232 is "asynchronous" in that each character is resynchronised by a start bit
[11:24] <Darkside> yes, but if you drop that start bit you are in trouble
[11:24] <agg> most modern protocols are "synchronous" in that they sync once for the start of frame (if that) and then clock all the frame bits out thereafter
[11:24] <Darkside> ok, so thats a yes
[11:25] <agg> so you usually need some sort of clock recovery, whereas you don't really need clock recovery for rs232 because you can tolerate quite wide frequency skew because you resync every byte
[11:25] <Darkside> this is just making excuses for poor transmitters
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[11:25] <Darkside> when its not exactly difficult to get a good stable symbol rate out of a micro
[11:25] <agg> and poor receivers really
[11:25] <Darkside> we have these things called interrupts
[11:25] <Darkside> and timers
[11:25] <agg> sure, if your micro also has a tcxo
[11:26] <Darkside> fsk_demod will tolerate a fair bit of symbol rate offset
[11:26] <agg> no help if you're running off the internal osc or an external 50ppm xo that's at -40c
[11:26] <Darkside> uhh
[11:26] <agg> do you do anything to guarantee transitions in your data stream?
[11:26] <Darkside> ive had no issues wiht that, and the micro on the RS41 isnt running off a TCXO
[11:26] <Darkside> yes, scrambling + interleaving
[11:26] <agg> does that actually guarantee transitions or just make them likely?
[11:27] <Darkside> makes the more likely, doesnt guarantee them
[11:27] <agg> interleaving is more about spreading out burst errors iirc, does it help with transitions?
[11:27] <Darkside> no, but the scrambing does help
[11:27] <agg> so long as you don't transmit the scramble pattern :p
[11:28] <Darkside> and yeah, the modem will freewheel over a few symbols that are the same
[11:28] <Darkside> cant rmember how much
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[11:29] <Darkside> anyway, it works. modem performs pretty much on incoherent FSK theory
[11:29] <agg> do you use a checksum as well as fec or just fec coding?
[11:30] <Darkside> yeah, its currently a golay code. theres a CRC16 (yes...) on the data frame
[11:30] <agg> wonder if the golay codewords alone have enough hamming distance to make the crc sort of superfluous
[11:30] <agg> i am currently fully in the weeds of crcs (again)
[11:30] <Darkside> looking at moving towards a LDPC code (i think we discussed this a while ago), but at such short frame lengths im not really sure if the little bit of improvement is worth it
[11:31] <Darkside> yeah im not sure
[11:31] <Darkside> i have a few LDPC codes i want to try that dont have an error floor, so can probably be used safely without a CRC
[11:31] <agg> it transpires a lot of things are basically broken due to poor crc choices, lol
[11:31] <agg> like CAN....
[11:31] <agg> and then CAN FD before they changed the packet format to fix it halfway through standardisation.....
[11:31] <Darkside> hitting this at work a little bit too
[11:32] <Darkside> libCSP and its weird use of different endianness everywhere
[11:32] <agg> oh the endianness is also very important if you do have multi-byte values
[11:32] <Darkside> so cant just go through and calculate the CRC as each byte coms in
[11:32] <agg> at least on ukhas telem we don't
[11:32] <agg> need to match the endianness to the transmission order too so that bits go through the crc register in the same order they are transmitted
[11:32] <Darkside> oh its not that
[11:32] <Darkside> its that the CRC is stored in the frame endian swapped
[11:33] <agg> it's also very important that that is the case (or not)
[11:33] <Darkside> so you cant do the trick where you calculte the CRC over the CRC itself and just check the check value
[11:33] <agg> hmm, yes you can (or should)
[11:33] <Darkside> they store the crc backwards
[11:33] <agg> unless it's been done incorrectly, in which case not only can you not do that, but you have lose significant burst error detection
[11:33] <Darkside> the developers didnt realise
[11:33] <Darkside> they do now
[11:33] <agg> you need to store the crc with the endianness that maps its shift register bits to transmission bit order
[11:34] <Darkside> yes, they didnt
[11:34] <agg> otherwise a burst error on the crc checkword boundary will again not be detected
[11:34] <agg> wow that sucks
[11:34] <Darkside> i mean, i think its fixed now
[11:34] <Darkside> or will be in the next version
[11:34] <agg> basically a misunderstanding of crcs is widespread everywhere, i think because people don't consider the physical transmission at all
[11:34] <agg> maybe check the fix is actually correct rather than just "can now be computed more easily"
[11:34] <Darkside> true
[11:35] <Darkside> for our purposes its kind of meh, since we're using CSP under another layer anyway
[11:35] <Darkside> *above
[11:36] <Darkside> other factors at play there
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[13:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03F4igg_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F4igg_chase
[13:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03LU1ESY-11 after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LU1ESY-11
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[14:01] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03AIRCOR-3 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AIRCOR-3
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[14:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03YO4ESC-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YO4ESC-12
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[15:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SSTAR0403 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SSTAR0403
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[18:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GSM - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GSM
[18:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Villanelle_Chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Villanelle_Chase
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[18:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03icspace22 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=icspace22
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[20:23] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3XIN-2 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK3XIN-2
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[21:28] chris_99 (uid26561@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jlkywwtbgyrujfvh) left irc:
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[21:44] GyroW (~GyroW@ptr-48ujrfd1ztq5fjywfw3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) left irc: Changing host
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[21:47] OZ7EMA (~emanuel_@2001:b07:ad4:b747:a852:8afb:b670:3cd1) left irc: Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[21:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PA1SDB-4FSK after 039 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PA1SDB-4FSK
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[21:59] rgp (~rgp@unaffiliated/rgp) got netsplit.
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[22:00] Tegu (~tegu@156.ip-151-80-145.eu) returned to #highaltitude.
[22:00] matb (~matb@192.3.163.17) returned to #highaltitude.
[22:00] Hiena_away (~boreger@81-93-195-181.ipv4.datatrans.hu) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[22:00] rgp (~rgp@unaffiliated/rgp) returned to #highaltitude.
[22:00] ETE (~quassel@a80-101-233-106.adsl.xs4all.nl) returned to #highaltitude.
[22:01] Axone (~Axone@lfbn-idf1-1-638-2.w86-242.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
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[22:10] nv1d (~chris@198.15.109.54) got lost in the net-split.
[22:10] jscob (~jscob@culley.me) got lost in the net-split.
[22:11] MedadRufus29 (~kvirc@host86-145-232-177.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/
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[23:02] RocketBoy (05432e49@05432e49.skybroadband.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:08] Kodar (~Kodar@93-142-48-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[23:14] Lahti (~Lahti@dyvymjdylqdfrbq8xz3lt-4.rev.dnainternet.fi) left irc: Quit: Lähdössä
[23:37] kedidie (~kedidie@ptr-4inhh22xns2cft2ro3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[00:00] --- Thu Oct 29 2020