highaltitude.log.20200131

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[01:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03icspace16 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=icspace16
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[02:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LU7AA_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LU7AA_chase
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[05:07] <VE6AZX> a while ago someone asked me for a pic of the valve design we're using to make smaller latex balloons with payloads float at high altitudes. here is it =- https://imgur.com/a/W177xG5
[05:08] <VE6AZX> it uses one of the RFM98 LoRa radios and a servo powered by 2 CR2 lithium cells in series.
[05:10] <SpeedEvil> Thefoam is flexy enough at -30C?/
[05:11] <VE6AZX> yes
[05:11] <Darkside> very neat
[05:11] <VE6AZX> it is used for model railroad track bed
[05:11] <VE6AZX> put it in the thermal vac chamber and it works
[05:11] <Darkside> have you tried the entire thing when cold soaked?
[05:11] <VE6AZX> took me forever to find a decent gasket!
[05:11] <Darkside> i'd be worried about grease freezing up at -60 degrees or whatever
[05:12] <VE6AZX> yep, froze to -50 deg c in the chamber. it seems to work still.
[05:12] <Darkside> neat
[05:12] <Darkside> have always wanted to do something like that - that's a nice solution
[05:13] <VE6AZX> I want to put the entire project on github sopon
[05:13] <VE6AZX> *soon
[05:13] <VE6AZX> my idea is to make the thing cheap enough to be disposable - completely 3d printed, and using simple opensource firmware.
[05:14] <Darkside> sure
[05:14] <Darkside> using the lora radio is easy enough. i use them for my cutdown payloads...
[05:14] <VE6AZX> yes I learned about them from Dave Ackerman's site
[05:15] <VE6AZX> they're so good
[05:15] <Darkside> reliable over a loooong range, with teh right settings
[05:15] <VE6AZX> I figured out a hack to make the 70cm RFM98 transmit APRS frames on 144.390
[05:15] <VE6AZX> and it works!
[05:16] <SpeedEvil> Looks good.
[05:16] <Darkside> hrm
[05:17] <Darkside> VE6AZX: you will likely be transmitting APRS frames on 288 MHZ too :P
[05:17] <VE6AZX> I checked for harmonics with an SDR and it was clean
[05:17] <Darkside> hrmmmm
[05:17] <Darkside> i did testing with one on 2m and the harmonics were bad
[05:17] <Darkside> well, bad enough that i didnt want to fly it anyway
[05:17] <Darkside> i was using a spec-an..
[05:18] <VE6AZX> the semtech chip is actually spec'd across a wide range of frequencies. the front end filter reduces the amplitude outside of the RFM98W's spec'd range but other than that it seemed alright.
[05:18] <Darkside> given its a Class E amplifier and its using a low pass filter set for something like 480 mhz
[05:18] <VE6AZX> what kind of modulation were you using?
[05:18] <Darkside> the efficiency would also likely go to hell that far off the tuned frequency as well
[05:18] <Darkside> i was jut outputting CW
[05:19] <VE6AZX> I was outputting FM.
[05:19] <Darkside> as a test for harmonics
[05:19] <Darkside> doesnt matter what modulation you use
[05:19] <Darkside> if its going to produce harmonics, you'll see it regardless
[05:19] <VE6AZX> anyway, yeah it's not efficient but it doesn't need to be. I was getting received by igates and such.
[05:19] <Darkside> it just may be that you've spread out the signal over enough bandwidth that your receiver can't see it (which suggests the receiver is seriosuly limited)
[05:20] <Darkside> but yeah, CBF with flying APRS over here
[05:20] <Darkside> cant get a high enough update rate
[05:20] <Darkside> not enough infrastructure
[05:20] <Darkside> etc...
[05:20] <Darkside> makes sense for a floating flight though, which i guess is what you're going for
[05:20] <VE6AZX> yup
[05:21] <VE6AZX> aprs infrastructure around here is so-so
[05:21] <VE6AZX> it's more of a nice-to-have
[05:21] <VE6AZX> so I ping out only every 5 min or so then go back to my usual on 70cm
[05:21] <Darkside> still need to do a 8 or 16-FSK implementation of horus binary using the lora chip
[05:22] <VE6AZX> we need a modern version of aprs that uses better modulation, less power, cheaper hardware, and smaller antennas.
[05:22] <VE6AZX> lora on 900mhz would rule if there was infrastructure.
[05:22] <Darkside> yeah, but good luck replacing all the infrastructure
[05:22] <Darkside> and plz no lora
[05:22] <VE6AZX> i know
[05:22] <VE6AZX> wait why
[05:22] <Darkside> because its a completely closed modulation
[05:22] <Darkside> and the chips arent even documented well enough to enable interoperability between chip models
[05:22] <Darkside> did you hear about fossasat-1?
[05:23] <VE6AZX> yeah
[05:23] <Darkside> picocube sat beaconing lora. but they changed a preamble setting, and it made it incompatible with a heap of other lora chips
[05:23] <Darkside> would only work with a specific model
[05:24] <Darkside> (plus there were other issues with the sat, but that was the most interesting one)
[05:24] <VE6AZX> are there any sensible alternatives?
[05:24] <Darkside> lora is patented and closed, so writing and selling your own implementation of it is not allowed
[05:24] <Darkside> depends
[05:24] <VE6AZX> the entire gnu radio chain for it is on github
[05:24] <Darkside> yeah no
[05:24] <Darkside> it only partially supports the modulation
[05:25] <Darkside> and the performance is crap
[05:25] <Darkside> been there tried that
[05:25] <Darkside> and its probably an infringement of the patent...
[05:25] <VE6AZX> tbh we came across this problem with D-STAR
[05:25] <Darkside> soooo
[05:25] <VE6AZX> and it still causes a civil war among ham people
[05:25] <Darkside> well D-STAR was an open protocol, right?
[05:25] <VE6AZX> nope
[05:25] <Darkside> the problem was the audio codec, which was patented
[05:25] <VE6AZX> that's splitting hairs imho
[05:25] <Darkside> the modem and protocol was a JARL Thing, but they chose to use AMBE because it was really the only codec they could get
[05:26] <VE6AZX> sure and it made sense
[05:26] <VE6AZX> I'm all for D-STAR
[05:26] <Darkside> anyway, open replacement for APRS? sure, it could be done
[05:26] <Darkside> low rate MFSK mode woudl do it
[05:26] <VE6AZX> on which band?
[05:26] <Darkside> whatever band you want i guess?
[05:27] <Darkside> generating MFSK is easy
[05:27] <Darkside> receiving it easy with SDR
[05:27] <Darkside> sticking to FSK modes is nice as it means you can use more efficient amplifiers
[05:28] <VE6AZX> I'd like it if we didn't need more than 100's of mW to transmit
[05:28] <Darkside> something like BPSK would be more bandwidth / SNR efficient though, but its more difficult to modulate
[05:28] <VE6AZX> rather than 50W
[05:28] <Darkside> i mean, going from AFSK to FSK gives you an immdiate ~8dB improvement
[05:28] <VE6AZX> sure that would be a start.
[05:28] <VE6AZX> but I guess it's all pie in the sky
[05:28] <Darkside> it just means you cant shove audio into and out of a regular FM rig and have it work
[05:28] <VE6AZX> nobody will ever agree to it.
[05:29] <Darkside> but yeah, we fly a 4FSK modem on our launches. 100 baud 4FSK, short binary packets
[05:29] <Darkside> works to very low SNRs, extremely reliable
[05:29] <Darkside> and one position update every 2-3 seconds
[05:29] <Darkside> generated on the payload by PLL-twiddling a SI4032 chip, and received using SDR
[05:30] <Darkside> have also done an implementation using crystal-pulling on a radiometrix nodule
[05:30] <Darkside> https://github.com/projecthorus/horusbinary
[05:30] <VE6AZX> what's your LOS range?
[05:30] <Darkside> not necessarily a replacement for aprs, but its an example of designing and implementing a modem to suit a particular application
[05:30] <Darkside> horizon
[05:31] <Darkside> MDS on a receive system with a <1dB noise figure is somethign like -145 dBm
[05:31] <VE6AZX> yes I've heard 100 baud rtty and similar are that way.
[05:31] <Darkside> though thats really difficult to measure
[05:31] <Darkside> yeah we used to fly RTTY, but no FEC made me sad
[05:31] <Darkside> so we did this modem, which has r=1/2 FEC
[05:32] <VE6AZX> is your only problem with lora that it is closed?
[05:32] <Darkside> its also horrendously bandwidth inefficient
[05:32] <Darkside> though thats because they are trying to co-exist in a band with lots of other shit
[05:33] <Darkside> it makes sense to do the realyl wide bandwidth spreading when you are trying to deal with lots of in-band interference
[05:33] <Darkside> but it doesnt make as much sense when you have relatively clean spectrum
[05:34] <VE6AZX> I mean sure, but it seems to work well enough and it saves me a giant development cycle
[05:34] <Darkside> well sure
[05:34] <VE6AZX> mostly I use it because dave used it and documented how to do it
[05:34] <Darkside> dave picked it because it was what was available in a single-chip transceiver solution
[05:35] <Darkside> and thats fair enough
[05:35] <VE6AZX> yeah for the valve we really need low power and compact as well.
[05:35] <Darkside> sure
[05:35] <VE6AZX> our last prototypes were heavy and when they come crashing down they wreck the parachute
[05:35] <Darkside> and without access to a silicon fab house, any open source alternative is going to have trouble competing
[05:35] <VE6AZX> so we figured it had to be negligibly light not to do that
[05:36] <Darkside> i mean, you can design an open transceiver to do a decent modem. shrinking it down to a single chip takes a lot of money
[05:36] <VE6AZX> I imagine so, yes.
[05:37] <Darkside> im not saying i have a drop-in replacement for the lora chip, not at all
[05:38] <Darkside> i do have a replacement for the downlink part, which at least can be received with any hardware ;-)
[05:38] <VE6AZX> sure, and I can def. see that is valuable.
[05:38] <VE6AZX> someday it'd be nice to at least get aprs off of afsk and into fsk or similar.
[05:39] <VE6AZX> but I'm not sure it will ever happen
[05:39] <Darkside> and add FEC
[05:39] <VE6AZX> yes
[05:39] <VE6AZX> and possible channels for different rates?
[05:39] <Darkside> maybe
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[06:43] <SM0ULC-David> test
[06:43] <SM0ULC-David> hi guys!
[06:44] <VE6AZX> hi
[06:45] <SM0ULC-David> nice with some chatting on this channel, been pretty quiet for some time
[06:46] <VE6AZX> just wanted to post what I'd been working on
[06:53] <SM0ULC-David> cool to hear about other projects
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[09:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP1TMT_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP1TMT_chase
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[09:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BZ-RTTY-4 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BZ-RTTY-4
[09:44] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BZ-LORA-4 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BZ-LORA-4
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[11:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KI5GVH-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KI5GVH-11
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[12:02] <Celestial_Mech> Hello world, been having some trouble getting this system to work, is this now visible?
[12:07] <daveake> Yes that's working
[12:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Xpi4 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Xpi4
[12:41] <DK6OV> PE2BZ: Hi Ben
[12:42] <DK6OV> got the fist decodes in RTTY and LoRa!
[12:43] <PE2BZ> Hallo Dieter :-)
[12:43] <PE2BZ> Very nice !
[12:44] <PE2BZ> It´s yours for the next hours ;-)
[12:46] <DK6OV> I will test some different software. Next is the "LoRa serial Gateway" under WINE.
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[13:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP3TUT-13 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP3TUT-13
[13:22] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KM4EFW-12 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KM4EFW-12
[13:27] <DK6OV> PE2BZ: The LoRa-receiver is working quit fine.
[13:28] <DK6OV> But the frequency of the RTTY signal is not stable an difficultly to decode.
[13:29] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KI5GVH-12 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KI5GVH-12
[13:30] <DK6OV> I have made a audio-record of the signal.
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[13:43] <PE2BZ> I have requested 5 RFM98w modules with tcxo mounted to prevent the rtty drift. You did not see the payload cover I guess ?
[13:52] <DK6OV> No, your payload is 140 km away from here. I really can not see it. ????
[13:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Karhdl_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Karhdl_chase
[13:54] <PE2BZ> Does the 140 km include the altitude ;-)
[13:56] <PE2BZ> https://imgur.com/hVuORwc
[13:56] <PE2BZ> That´s the envelope my gps modules arrived in yesterday
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[14:01] <DK6OV> I don't see any envelope in the picture but some bare electronic parts.
[14:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DK0LG - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DK0LG
[14:05] <PE2BZ> https://imgur.com/gallery/tYxpiyE
[14:06] <PE2BZ> second try :-)
[14:11] <DK6OV> Ok, now I see it. :-) That is not much against the temperature.
[14:13] <DK6OV> I ordered another smal lora-module for testing. Then I can work on the software without a balloon in range.
[14:14] <PE2BZ> It´s good to see you as receiver now PA3DJR is getting on the edge (or beyond...)
[14:15] <PE2BZ> I do not notice the rtty signal on the Nuremberg SDR, do you knwo any other ISM websdr in range ?
[14:17] <DK6OV> No, I don't know other.
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[14:21] <DK6OV> I mention, that lora sometimes transmits 2 times the same packet instead a new on.
[14:22] <PE2BZ> is that with about 1 minute in between, or does that second packet arrive within about 12 seconds ?
[14:23] <DK6OV> I see it with two different PC programs. But I am not sure, if it is a problem of the sonde or of the anduino software.
[14:24] <DK6OV> It is with 1 minute between.
[14:30] <PE2BZ> Can you send me those strings by mail please ?
[14:33] <DK6OV> No Problem, I have a Log-File with all packets.
[14:33] <DK6OV> The RTTY-Signal is now unreadable.
[14:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> even if you set the rtty paddles at 400hz
[14:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> ?
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[14:35] <SA6BSS-Mike> hmm, all spyserver network is down
[14:40] <DK6OV> PE2BZ: Mail is on the way.
[14:40] <PE2BZ> Do you Spy on the server network ?
[14:40] <PE2BZ> Danke Dieter !
[14:41] <PE2BZ> Are you able to try Mike´s advice about the RTTy receiving bandwidth in DL-Fldigi ? Mine was set to 400 Hz
[14:42] <DK6OV> The rtty signal has 150 Hz frequency drift during one package.
[14:42] Action: PE2BZ has to run some tests on the software to check the voltage indicator. Both RTTY and LORA appear to report non-logic and non-equal voltage. Might need to use an average from 5 measurements.
[14:43] <KD4BFP> Any admins available to please add the HYSPLIT button to KM4EFW-12 ?
[14:43] <PE2BZ> It does :-) but with 400 Hz receiving bandwidth is stays in side the mark and space spaces
[14:45] <DK6OV> My be, but my DL-FLDIG does not manage to catch that with the AFC.
[14:45] <PE2BZ> Disable AFC.
[14:48] <DK6OV> Does not help. First part is readable, last part is false.
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[14:49] <PE2BZ> Never mind, it´s all about LoRa today ;-)
[14:50] <DK6OV> And LoRa is working quit fine.
[14:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03icspace17 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=icspace17
[14:52] <PE2BZ> DK6OV, I requested the telemetry files from PA3DJR to check if he has doubles with the same line numbers. He also runs the serial gateway with a Maduino receiver board.
[14:53] <DK6OV> Good idea.
[15:00] <DK6OV> Elevation dropped to 0.8 deg. No signal readable anymore. I am away for some minutes.
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[15:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03NASD01 after 0312 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NASD01
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[16:01] <PE2BZ> Can we assume the altitude of KI5GVH-11 being in Feet and not in meters ?
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[17:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-74 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-74
[17:14] <SA6BSS-Mike> !dial BZ-RTTY-4
[17:14] <SpacenearUS> 03SA6BSS-Mike: Latest dials for 03BZ-RTTY-4 10(d41b): 03437.6 MHz, 7.07 MHz
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[18:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RJL97 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RJL97
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[19:23] <PE2BZ> SA6BSS-Mike, 434.660.6 at the moment
[19:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> tnx
[19:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> I see you quite a few tracking so all good :)
[19:29] <PE2BZ> Good receivee :-)
[19:29] <SA6BSS-Mike> Boboor foil?
[19:30] <PE2BZ> Cattex foil
[19:30] <PE2BZ> https://photos.app.goo.gl/VBwbLbqdgsqUq5TAA
[19:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> like this https://www.cattexballoons.nl/product-category/rond-onbedrukt-36/
[19:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> ?
[19:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> thats what I might have got as well, will try that on a floater by Sunday, it was 95cm across
[19:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://imgur.com/B0oZXtd
[19:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> did you take any messurments?
[19:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> of diamater
[19:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> they are like Qualatex but half the price and no label who make them
[19:35] <SA6BSS-Mike> 46 gram weight and a bit larger the the qulataex, streaches easy so will have to be carefull with free lift
[19:38] <PE2BZ> Looks quite the same indeed. You want the diameter laying flat ?
[19:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes
[19:38] <PE2BZ> 4 Euro each over here
[19:39] <SA6BSS-Mike> 5 here
[19:39] <SA6BSS-Mike> have made a couple of custom balloons that I will try soon https://imgur.com/B0DyghC
[19:39] <PE2BZ> Will do that tomorrow. Parents in law are stauing over so when the bed is made up there is space to put a balllon on top :-)
[19:39] <SA6BSS-Mike> rr
[19:40] <PE2BZ> All selfmade ? or from parts of the other balloon ?
[19:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> selfmade
[19:41] <PE2BZ> nice !
[19:41] <PE2BZ> <VE6AZX> I figured out a hack to make the 70cm RFM98 transmit APRS frames on 144.390
[19:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> got some foil snt over from a friens In US
[19:41] <PE2BZ> then VE6AZX magically appears ?
[19:41] <PE2BZ> https://photos.app.goo.gl/vwRw7bQQcrQqPkyr5
[19:42] <PE2BZ> add 3 gram to that for the clip holding the balloon. So 42 gram necklift for todays flight, 38 gram paylaod with wires in total.
[19:43] <SA6BSS-Mike> how many balloons
[19:43] <SA6BSS-Mike> ?
[19:43] <PE2BZ> For this payload ? only one.
[19:44] <SA6BSS-Mike> wow, good altitude with that weight !
[19:44] <PE2BZ> The other one was overfilled and it´s pita to get the HE back out....
[19:44] <SA6BSS-Mike> launching a 5.5 gram on similar balloon Sunday morning if all goes well
[19:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> just use a straw and suck it out, and then talk like a little girl :)
[19:47] <PE2BZ> Lol
[19:47] <PE2BZ> That could have saved me filling another one....
[19:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> make sure its not made of plastic, use a paper straw or it will stick to autoclosing nozzle
[19:49] <SA6BSS-Mike> you need two glued together as the nozzle is quite long
[19:49] <SA6BSS-Mike> if you remove it its 0,6 gram to save :)
[19:51] <SA6BSS-Mike> TV time here , enjoy your Parents in law :) l8r
[19:52] <PE2BZ> bye!
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[20:57] <bertrik> I think icspace17 has reached basically every TTN LoRaWAN receiver in the netherlands :)
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[21:07] <bertrik> the habhub.org website has several simple spelling errors
[21:07] <bertrik> "Chat with us #highaltitude on irc.freenode.net"
[21:07] <bertrik> -> Intrested in tracking?
[21:22] <Darkside> that can be fixed
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[21:23] <Darkside> ok fixed those two
[21:23] <Darkside> not sure how long the cache lasts for
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[00:00] --- Sat Feb 1 2020