highaltitude.log.20191128

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[00:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Roman_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Roman_chase
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[01:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HCCS1_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HCCS1_chase
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[06:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD2KDD-15 after 0316 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2KDD-15
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[06:57] VE6AZX (4648c415@S0106bcd16565d9aa.cg.shawcable.net) joined #highaltitude.
[06:58] <VE6AZX> anyone got experience with RFM69HCW's? Can you get a lot of range out of the with the line-of-sight advantage a balloon has?
[07:09] xfce (~anony@cpe-85-10-26-226.dynamic.amis.net) joined #highaltitude.
[07:17] <Darkside> well, it looks like HCCS-1 launched without a NOTAM, and lost their payload
[07:17] <VE6AZX> whereabouts was this?
[07:17] <Darkside> here in south australia
[07:17] <Darkside> ive been trying to get in contact with the group for weeks to offer assistance
[07:17] <VE6AZX> I see.
[07:17] <VE6AZX> ... unfortunately, I'm no stranger to lost payloads.
[07:21] <VE6AZX> we don't have very good tracking in north america.
[07:21] <VE6AZX> aprs is the only real option.
[07:21] <VE6AZX> hardware for that is hard to build, especially to build inexpensively.
[07:21] <VE6AZX> (grumbles) AFSK 1200 baud....
[07:22] <Darkside> aprs is horrible
[07:24] <VE6AZX> agreed!
[07:24] <VE6AZX> finally! someone who agrees!
[07:28] <VE6AZX> I want to make a mesh network of RFM69's
[07:28] <VE6AZX> but I have no idea whether it will provide sufficient range for a balloon.
[07:28] <VE6AZX> reading the logs, 50 dollar sat used the rfm22b, which should be kind of similar?
[07:28] <VE6AZX> and that thing worked for hundreds of km.
[07:29] <Darkside> there was a project doing something like this, UKHASNet
[07:30] <Darkside> and theres a heap of LoRa receivers in the UK
[07:30] <Darkside> and that seems to work pretty well
[07:30] <VE6AZX> I've seen their work and want to duplicate it in NA
[07:30] <Darkside> around here i fly 100 baud MFSK, a custom mode we developed
[07:30] <Darkside> super robust
[07:30] <VE6AZX> do you know if they need to use lora for balloon range, or if the rfm69 fsk mode is good enough?
[07:33] <Darkside> i think it has better range
[07:33] <Darkside> but if you want just one-way comms, the MFSK mode is pretty hard to beat
[07:33] <Darkside> but you need to receive it with a SSB receiver (or a SDR)
[07:35] <VE6AZX> how do you implement your transmitter?
[07:35] <Darkside> in my case im reflashing a RS41
[07:35] <Darkside> but the MSFK modulation could be done on other radios
[07:35] <VE6AZX> did you buy the rs41or hunt it down haha
[07:36] <Darkside> hunt them down :-)
[07:36] <Darkside> https://github.com/projecthorus/horusbinary
[07:37] <VE6AZX> thanks!
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[07:38] <VE6AZX> well
[07:38] <VE6AZX> if I buy a handful of rfm69's and deploy little solar nodes all over the place, I wonder if it will solve our problem
[07:39] <Darkside> i wouldnt count the FSK rx on them as the best
[07:39] <Darkside> no idea really how well they work
[07:39] <Darkside> the way to improve performance is to drop the baud rate significantly,but im not sure they operate below maybe 500 baud
[07:40] <Darkside> for HAB, 100 baud with a well-packed payload is more than enough
[07:40] <Darkside> i think you'd be better off following the UK approach with the LoRa system
[07:40] <Darkside> that seems to work pretty damn well
[07:41] <Darkside> and theres already a lot of software out there for it
[07:41] <VE6AZX> I'm also trying to pull some faster data down for science
[07:41] <VE6AZX> but that may not be possible.
[07:41] <Darkside> the higher-rate LoRa modes may allow that
[07:41] <Darkside> what kind of rates do you mean?
[07:42] <VE6AZX> 9600 baud give or take
[07:42] <Darkside> yeah even the highest rate LoRa modes are only just approaching that
[07:42] <Darkside> you could take a look at my Wenet system, you can kind of throw arbitrary data into that
[07:43] <Darkside> https://github.com/projecthorus/wenet
[07:43] <Darkside> and can be run at lower rates than the default (115200 baud)
[07:43] <Darkside> transmit side is a RFM98W module, but running in direct FSK mode, hooked to a RPi
[07:43] <Darkside> RX is done using a RTLSDR (plus preamp and yagi...)
[07:44] <VE6AZX> wow!
[07:44] <Darkside> its designed for transmitting images, but i did add in some code last year to allow insertion of 'secondary' payload data into the downlink
[07:46] <VE6AZX> so that's using straight up FSK on a super high baud rate
[07:46] <Darkside> with interleaving and LDPC FEC
[07:47] <VE6AZX> does that make a big difference?
[07:47] <Darkside> yeah, gives maybe 6db of coding gain
[07:47] <VE6AZX> wow, very cool
[07:48] <Darkside> you can run it at lower baud rates too,but i havent flown it at those
[07:48] <Darkside> most of our launches now have a wenet imagery payload onboard, for pretty live imagery
[07:49] <VE6AZX> what kind of image rate are you getting?
[07:49] <VE6AZX> sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm very glad I ran into you.
[07:49] <Darkside> i think we get one 1080p image down every maybe 30-50 seconds, depending on content
[07:49] <Darkside> its using SSDV still, so its JPEG compressed
[07:49] <VE6AZX> that's pretty cool
[07:49] <Darkside> and hence image size depends on content
[07:51] <VE6AZX> this does give me some hope that faster fsk downlinks can be practical
[07:52] <Darkside> for reliable reception from a stationary site you do need antenna gain and a preamp
[07:52] <VE6AZX> do you find the pre-amp makes a large difference?
[07:52] <VE6AZX> I wonder if I ought to try..
[07:52] <Darkside> we usually setup a 'primary' receive site somewhere well-placed around the flight path
[07:52] <Darkside> oh definitely
[07:53] <VE6AZX> does the pre-amp matter if the receiver chip is connected directly to the antenna?
[07:53] <Darkside> the noise figure of somethign liek a RTLSDR is 6-8 db at best
[07:53] <VE6AZX> or is the main function to reduce out of band noise
[07:53] <Darkside> at maximum gain
[07:53] <Darkside> the main function is to lower system noise figure
[07:53] <Darkside> however that does need to be traded off with IMD performance
[07:54] <Darkside> if you have a preamp in place, and lots of other strong signals, you may end up overloading or otherwise causing distortion in the receiver
[07:54] <VE6AZX> I see
[07:54] <Darkside> so filtering is useful in that regard (i.e. the habamp, which has a SAW filter in it)
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[08:04] Nick change: snakedGT -> snaked
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[08:08] <VE6AZX> would this kindof thing help?
[08:08] <VE6AZX> https://www.amazon.ca/50-4000MHz-Amplifier-SPF5189-Signal-Receiver/dp/B076ZQTY8S/ref=pd_sbs_201_3/143-9520889-8862659?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B076ZQTY8S&pd_rd_r=d29ce5c7-c7f9-403f-952e-e1122be912ea&pd_rd_w=fcMdp&pd_rd_wg=AZQGt&pf_rd_p=c7838c3c-6de6-46ad-946c-b7318af714fb&pf_rd_r=TZR3WWZ19326NVE5B1JT&psc=1&refRID=TZR3WWZ19326NVE5B1JT
[08:08] <Darkside> well that has no filter
[08:09] <VE6AZX> hmm, right.
[08:09] <Darkside> but yeah
[08:22] <VE6AZX> how do you know you've aimed the directional antenna correctly, if you only receive images every minute or so?
[08:25] <Darkside> do it absed on the other tracking telemetry
[08:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes, and I guess its liek 7-10 ele , its quite wide in it opening
[08:26] <VE6AZX> I see
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[08:37] <VE6AZX> I wonder if it would be crazy to ask one of the repeater operators here if I could send sstv over one of their machines
[08:39] <Darkside> sstv is horrible quality compared to wenet
[08:40] <Darkside> we did a SSTV flight earlier in the year, and it reallt was terrible compared to what we had become used to
[08:40] <VE6AZX> what kind of distances were you using wenet over?
[09:00] <Darkside> up to maybe 60-100km
[09:00] <Darkside> i think 100km line of sight is about its limit
[09:00] <Darkside> but its not hard to situate a rx station somewhere near the flight path to get good reception
[09:01] <VE6AZX> thanks!
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[09:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SQ9GOL/AM after 037 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ9GOL%2FAM
[10:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ9GOL-05 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ9GOL-05
[10:33] Nick change: pe2bz_ -> PE2BZ
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[11:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LetFik5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LetFik5
[11:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SITS-3 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS-3
[11:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BZ-mini after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BZ-mini
[12:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SCOUTHAB after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SCOUTHAB
[12:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KANGAROO after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KANGAROO
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[13:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BZ-maxi - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BZ-maxi
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[13:15] Pit[m] (pit711matr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ojipdulvmmsoygml) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[13:30] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03OAQ-PIS after 0318 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OAQ-PIS
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[14:12] PB0AHX-Herman (~PB0AHX@83-84-6-119.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[14:12] <PB0AHX-Herman> !flights
[14:12] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX-Herman: There are no flights currently :(
[14:20] nonlinear[m] (nonlineari@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hiilokpxzjjeuclh) joined #highaltitude.
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[15:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03michalf_test_car_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=michalf_test_car_chase
[15:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD2E-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2E-11
[15:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03michalf_test_car_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=michalf_test_car_chase
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[16:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03IT9YBG-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IT9YBG-11
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[18:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TORY_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TORY_chase
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[19:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Pavel_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Pavel_chase
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[19:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03LetFik5 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LetFik5
[20:45] Lahti (~Lahti@dywkmwfkbgr7rjt-d0cyt-4.rev.dnainternet.fi) left irc: Quit: Lähdössä
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[21:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kaklik_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kaklik_chase
[21:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Roman_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Roman_chase
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[23:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 033_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=3_chase
[00:00] --- Fri Nov 29 2019