highaltitude.log.20190603

[00:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VE5AA-15 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE5AA-15
[01:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WB9SKY-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB9SKY-11
[01:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9LIG-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9LIG-11
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[08:10] <hairgoneJohn> Good morning folks. Just wondering if there are better insulation/weight materials than polystyrene for payloads?
[08:10] <hairgoneJohn> We are getting down to about -30C and the clone pi cameras shut down at that temp.
[08:11] <Darkside> interesting
[08:11] <Darkside> the regular pi cameras seem to survive
[08:11] <hairgoneJohn> The official pi cameras are fine but the clone oscillators don't like the cold. We've tested both with freezer spray.
[08:12] <Darkside> suggest you use the real ones then
[08:12] <hairgoneJohn> We're trying to pare the cost to the minimum.
[08:12] <Darkside> better to do that and get the reliability than try and figure out an insulation solution that may or may not work
[08:13] <Darkside> don't skimp on this kind of stuff if you want your payload to work reliabily
[08:14] <hairgoneJohn> Well the batteries aren't keen on v low temps either. Just asking.
[08:14] <Darkside> Energizer Lithium AAs should be fine
[08:15] <Darkside> they are the only battery type we can recommend for these flights - anything else is risky
[08:15] <daveake> Even non-Energizer lithiums
[08:16] <Darkside> most battery chemistries will result in a rising internal resistance with a decrease in temperature, resulting in no power being supplied to your payload
[08:16] <Darkside> the energizer lithium iron disulphate chemistry (and in particular Energizer's variant of it) works great down to -40 degrees C and even below
[08:16] <hairgoneJohn> Ok. I understand all of the battery issues but was asking about better insulation materials.
[08:17] <Darkside> no matter what you are still going to need a hole in your payload for the camera lens
[08:17] <Darkside> so the camera is going to get cold
[08:17] <hairgoneJohn> Our experience is that at -40C the energisers still struggle.
[08:17] <daveake> But you're powering the Pi directly from those ?
[08:18] <Darkside> their internal resistance will increase somewhat, but they still have enough capacity to power payloads
[08:18] <Darkside> have been using them for 10 years
[08:18] <Darkside> and polystyrene foam is going to be your best bet for insulation
[08:19] <Darkside> definitely the lightest option
[08:21] <Robert_mja> Maybe this is interesting too: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32862054281.html
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[08:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MAGNU - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MAGNU
[09:00] <hairgoneJohn> Thanks for the insulation link. That material is about 3x better insulator but 20x weight. Apparently EPS is about 97% air so difficult to beat.
[09:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9FKC-10 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FKC-10
[09:01] <hairgoneJohn> We use energiser lithium and power pi directly from three AAAs. The battery temp is usually fine. We are using a clone camera as we want to create a very low cost payload.
[09:02] <hairgoneJohn> We have been getting some great pictures from a clone but the chinese oscillators appear to be the weak link.
[09:04] <hairgoneJohn> So that is the motivation for the insulation question. However we appreciate that the hole in the box for the lens will always be a heat loss corridor.
[09:05] <Darkside> so powering off 3x AAAs does work, for a while - but one you hit the dropout voltage of the pis 3.3v regulator that'll be the end of it
[09:05] <Darkside> i've run a Pi zero W + Picam off 3x AAs for maybe 8-9 hours i think
[09:06] <hairgoneJohn> Our experience is that dropout is around 3.0v
[09:06] <Darkside> but yes, unless you are willing to risk failed flights, i'd use the real picams
[09:06] <hairgoneJohn> Our flights only last two hours at most.
[09:06] <Darkside> well its a switchmode buck regulator, so at 3.0V its going to be in passthrough mode, and you're down to what the 3.3V rail devices can hande
[09:07] <Darkside> handle*
[09:07] <Darkside> but anyway, go fly your cheap chinesium camera and see how you go
[09:08] <Darkside> my guess is they are using a cheaper crystal instead of a TCXO
[09:08] <Darkside> so yeah, if you can insulate it reliably and keep it within whatever operating range it will work in, fine
[09:08] <Darkside> but if you want it to reliably work, just go with the better picam.
[09:08] <Darkside> why the driver for keeping costs so low?
[09:10] <hairgoneJohn> Its for schools and for them recovery is a big problem eg. time, transport, H &S risk assessment so we want to make it essentially disposable.
[09:10] <hairgoneJohn> and yes it is not environmentally optimal but neither are sondes.
[09:11] <Darkside> if theres no recovery then i would be suggesting you want to make it reliable so you get a higher chance of getting imagery downlinked
[09:11] <Darkside> how cheap are these clone camers anas anyway?
[09:13] <hairgoneJohn> That is our intention. If we need to use official picams we will but at £3.50 the chinese clones are ideal. Take a look at the pictures from yesterday's JOAL13 flight and I think you will be relatively impressed.
[09:17] <Darkside> so what cheap radio shield are you using?
[09:22] <hairgoneJohn> The RFM98W-433S2
[09:22] <Darkside> custom shield? or something off-the-shelf?
[09:23] <hairgoneJohn> off the shelf.
[09:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SITS-6 after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS-6
[09:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SITS-0 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS-0
[10:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03MWH01 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MWH01
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[10:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Phoenix1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Phoenix1
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[10:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BALYOLO - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BALYOLO
[10:52] <buzz53> Darkside: what John meant was RFM-96 and it's our own Pi-zero format shield
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[11:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EALoRa - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EALoRa
[11:14] <Darkside> buzz53: fair enough, a good way to make it cheap
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[11:31] <andrewh> Hi
[11:32] <andrewh> This is the first time I have joined the channel, can I ask a possibly silly question regarding launching a balloon in the UK and Insurance?
[11:32] <Darkside> you can ask - someone may answer!
[11:32] <Darkside> but possibly not immediately
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[11:33] <andrewh> Thanks, I'm looking to launch my first balloon next month and am going through the paperwork etc. I was wondering do you need insurance for the flight? I cant seem to find a definitive answer for launches in the UK.
[11:34] <russss> I believe most launches don't have insurance - you're not required to have it.
[11:34] <Ian_> andrewh if you can find an insurer, others would doubtless be interested. Someone seemed to take a brief interest around three years or so ago, but basically there is no one that can figure our how to make it a viable proposition.
[11:34] <russss> it's a bit tricky to find someone who'll insure balloon launches
[11:35] <Ian_> The Meteorological office don't carry insurance but keep stats and the figures suggest that the risk is relatively low.
[11:36] <andrewh> I think I saw that "brief" interest on a post whilst doing some research. I've called a few companies but they seem to not be able to distinguish a weather ballon launch from a hot air balloon launch.
[11:36] <russss> yeah, welcome to insurance
[11:36] <andrewh> I just didnt want to launch and then find myself in trouble retrospectively for not having it.
[11:37] <andrewh> hahaha
[11:37] <russss> well, as I said, it's not legally required so it's a question of risk really. Data indicates the risk is extremely low.
[11:38] <Ian_> The answer seems to lie in conducting proper due diligence prior to launch, with selection of launch site and projected landing zone.
[11:38] <russss> AFAIK the worst thing that's ever happened with a weather balloon is that it's broken someone's conservatory window or something
[11:39] <PE2BZ> Hairgonejohn has disappeared.... https://photos.app.goo.gl/Eq5DB3SjXAdwWCJHA that´s my chinese 160 degrees Pi Zero camera, mounted on the outside of an RS41 housing, totally unisolated, 3 Energizer batteries, powered it for 24 hours during flight landing and recovery.
[11:40] <andrewh> I'm using the sites form and have submitted the request for a launch https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:faq
[11:40] <andrewh> Do they normally get back to you much before the flight or is it a case of if there's issues etc. they get in touch?
[11:41] <PE2BZ> andrewh, I have flown a few payloads now, together with PB0AHX, and we rely on our liability insurance if anything should go wrong. it covers damage to other people / hardware when doing sports or hobbies. I do not sport ;-)
[11:41] <Ian_> Even stuck up a HV transmission line was handled with good humour, training exercise, by the appropriate utility. They were happy that they were called, rather than silly attempts to recover it. They phoned back to say that the package was nailed up on a pole beside the road awaiting collection. So all was well. Act responsibly and all should be well(ish). Seek permission before diving into crops etc.
[11:42] <PE2BZ> PC4L got his one recovered and delivered home from the river last week :-)
[11:43] <andrewh> Yeah I was thinking about if liability insurance would cover it, thanks for the info :-)
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[11:44] <andrewh> I'm planning on using http://astra-planner.soton.ac.uk/ for flight planning and suggested landing area.
[11:45] <PE2BZ> Over here we do not have to ask permission if the payload is less as 2 kg and balloon is less as 2 m at sea level. add a chute to have approx 5 m/s descend, and when < 35 gram no chute necessary.
[11:46] <daveake> re insurance, this was discussed in the mailing list earlier this year. I think it was a model flying org or something like that that offer HAB insurance
[11:46] <daveake> That's for amateur flights only; for commercial you need to speak to one or two insurers that cover those
[11:46] <daveake> Former cheap latter not
[11:46] <PE2BZ> SA6BSS-Mike, did you by any chance save the gif file from my trajectory ? the link only appears to work 2 days and now the image is gone.
[11:46] <andrewh> our payload is just shy of 700g's
[11:47] <daveake> Re CAA permission, they aren't know for staying in touch :). Suggest sending a reminder a few days prior to launch so your application doesn't get missed
[11:48] <daveake> It tends to come through the last business day before launch
[11:48] <andrewh> Ah thats good to know, I'll make a note of it and send them a reminder.
[11:48] <daveake> Sometimes worryingly late in the afternoon :)
[11:48] <daveake> And often it'll appear on notaminfo.com or the AIS site before you get the email
[11:50] <andrewh> Thats great, thanks for sharing I wasnt aware of the notaminfo site. I'll book mark it now
[11:51] <daveake> It can be a bit slow, so if in doubt use AIS, but that takes more work to use
[11:53] <andrewh> Thank you so much for your time and advice everyone I really appreciate.
[11:53] <andrewh> I'll book mark this IRC and definitely be back. Have a great day :-)
[11:54] <daveake> Aiming for @fsphil's head this week :) http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=5707fe57fe28a27be508a78476d87ac4f806a524
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[12:37] <Ian_> A D-Day landing :) Dunganon?
[12:37] <fsphil> neatly I'm helping a launch from dungannon tomorrow
[12:37] <Ian_> Notam looking :)
[12:38] <daveake> You could reccy the area and tell me exactly where you want my flight to land :)
[12:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> PE2BZ: https://imgur.com/a/0vOfhSq
[12:38] <daveake> Actual land will be an improvement on the previous attempt :)
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[12:52] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3S33 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3S33
[12:59] Nick change: Upu_ -> Upu
[13:04] <fsphil> daveake: there's a golf course near my house, 1e10 hab points if you land it there
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[13:04] <daveake> Heh
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[13:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AA1PJ-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AA1PJ-11
[13:30] <PE2BZ> SA6BSS-Mike, thanks !
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[13:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BMCK1R - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BMCK1R
[13:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL7AD-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL7AD-11
[14:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SANTAFE_Chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SANTAFE_Chase
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[16:52] <LW2DTZ> Hello
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[16:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03MWH01 after 037 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MWH01
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[19:33] <g00> hi, do you know any android apps for decoding signals from radiosondes?
[19:51] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://escursioni.altervista.org/Radiosonde/
[19:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> sorry, missed the android part
[19:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> quite sure there is none
[20:01] <Ian_> https://ukhas.org.uk/frontpage:software
[20:01] <Ian_> g00 you might like to have a look at ^^
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[20:13] <g00> Ian_: thanks, looks very nice, i'll try it out tomorrow
[20:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DL4AAS-2 after 038 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL4AAS-2
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[20:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5NTM_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5NTM_chase
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[21:00] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WB8YQK-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8YQK-11
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[21:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC1EAI - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC1EAI
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[22:05] <Cellectronic> Can anyone advise with a Lora RFM98 setup , I have a moteino mega with 433 tranceiver fitted and a spare Raspberry Pi 3. Just wondered if it possible to build a Lora gateway with my parts.
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[23:02] <Ian_> Gone away to brush up programming skills :)
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[00:00] --- Tue Jun 4 2019