highaltitude.log.20190323

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[00:14] <TimMc_> VK3ZYC_AUTO_RX is picking up R0220098 from 150km away ^_^
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[03:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3S30 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3S30
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[06:33] <Guest80455> hi
[06:33] <Guest80455> is anyone here?
[06:34] <Guest80455> we are trying to make a HAB project in Baku, Azerbaijan
[06:35] <Guest80455> and we need some help with HABduino
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[07:49] <SA6BSS-Mike> Guest80455: just habg onand there will probably be some awnsering
[07:50] <SA6BSS-Mike> you can state you question and anyone that knows will pick up
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[08:00] <Guest80455> so my question is:
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[08:01] <Guest80455> 1. Can Habduino recieve signals or does it only transmit?
[08:03] <Guest80455> 2. How do we recieve information sent from our HAB? Before this project we launched our small sattelite 400 meters high and used XBee modules to send and recieve data
[08:05] <Guest80455> we recieved it on our ground control station and showed our analysed data on our computer right away. Can we do the same with Habduino with radiometrix MTX2?
[08:07] <Guest80455> 3. What is RTTY and how do we use it? we kind of get what it is but we do not understand it as we should be, so i would be very happy to hear some professional opinion
[08:14] <Guest80455> the biggest problem is what are the ways to recieve data transmited by Radiometrix mtx2 (on habduino). do we build our radio station or should we buy some other receiver
[08:24] <Darkside> have you read david ackermans blog post on this stuff?
[08:25] <Darkside> http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
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[08:28] <Guest80455> yes we have, but we still need some sort of summary
[08:29] <Darkside> 1 - Habduino is transmit only
[08:29] <Darkside> 2 - you need your own radio receiver. daves blog post links to guides on what you need for this
[08:29] <Darkside> 3. RTTY is a method of transmitting binary data via radio. it modulates data by shifting a radio signal between two frequencies
[08:30] <Darkside> dave's post has a section called 'UKHAS receiving station' which talks to the equipment you need
[08:30] <Guest80455> so we cannot send any commands in case something happens to our HAB?
[08:31] <Darkside> correct
[08:31] <Darkside> the RTTY downlink is likely to provide significantly longer ranges than your xbee module
[08:32] <Darkside> mainly because it runs at a much slower rate
[08:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> then a lora radio or a radio set up with a si446x series would work
[08:32] <Darkside> but you will still get position updates every 10-20 seconds
[08:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> for rx/tx
[08:32] <Darkside> SA6BSS-Mike: sure, if they want to go design their own system from scratch
[08:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes ofc
[08:32] <Darkside> given they are using a habduino, im not sure they're at that level
[08:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> but isnt there a lora pisky?
[08:32] <Darkside> yes
[08:33] <Darkside> i dont know if daves code does remote control stuff
[08:33] <Darkside> though i agree the lora modules would probably be the easiest way to go
[08:33] <Darkside> its what I use for my payloads..
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[08:35] <Darkside> Guest80455: dont try to get too complex on your first flight. keep it simple
[08:35] <Darkside> if you fill your balloon correctly, you can fairly reliably predict the burst altitude and know where the flight is goign to go
[08:36] <Darkside> save the remote command & control for after you have soem experience
[08:38] <Guest80455> so the thing is that we have a competition in Moscow called RosCanSat. Our goal is to launch our so called "sattelite" 30 km up.Then baloon explodes and the "sattelite" falls down until it reaches 12 km. after that the parachute opens and in falls down the rest. the sattelite must transmit data (temperature, humidity, gps and ect) with a pretty fast rate (3-4 times a second or even faster)
[08:39] <Guest80455> it must transmit data since the beggining of the flight
[08:39] <Darkside> all of this is possible, doing it all reliably on your first flight, not so much
[08:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> why 3-4 telemetry packets / sec?
[08:40] <Darkside> i mean, sure, you can transmit at that kind of rate, but it means you need much better radio equipment on the ground
[08:40] <Guest80455> so it is possible to send data at very high rates with habduino?
[08:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> isnt 1 packets / enough or even less?
[08:40] <Guest80455> ok
[08:40] <Darkside> and if you dont have much experience with radio, then you will have trouble
[08:41] <Guest80455> that rate is given by rules
[08:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> easier to rx at lower rtty speeds
[08:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> ah, ok
[08:41] <Darkside> you are going to need to do a lot of development and testing on the ground
[08:41] <Darkside> so who sets these rules?
[08:41] <Darkside> have they done lots of high altitude balloon launches before?
[08:41] <Darkside> do they have a working system that does what they ask?
[08:42] <Darkside> because it'd be good to know what they consider a 'typical' system that does this to be
[08:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> Darkside: what do you get get at 300bd? 2 packs a sec?
[08:42] <Guest80455> the competitions are orgonised by RosCosmos and Moscow State university
[08:42] <Guest80455> the set the rules
[08:42] <Darkside> SA6BSS-Mike: maybe
[08:42] <Guest80455> they*
[08:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> 1 1/3
[08:42] <Darkside> more like1 packet a second
[08:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> yeah
[08:42] <Darkside> you can cut the packet right down ig you need to
[08:43] <Darkside> Guest80455: well, i suggest you start looking at radio opttions
[08:43] <Darkside> a LoRa modem running at a higher rate, with small packets might be suitable
[08:43] <Darkside> keep the packet as small as possible, and you may get that kidn of update rate
[08:43] <Guest80455> unfortunately we dont have any experiense with radio receiving
[08:43] <Darkside> but you're still going to need a good ground station
[08:44] <Darkside> this is a problem
[08:44] <Guest80455> but we hope to learn fast)
[08:44] <Darkside> because thats going to be the most critical part of your system
[08:44] <Darkside> when is the deadline?
[08:44] <Guest80455> it smmertime
[08:44] <Darkside> err
[08:44] <Darkside> date?
[08:44] <SA6BSS-Mike> yoi have a linc to the rules ? homapage of the test?
[08:44] <Guest80455> summertime* around august
[08:44] <Darkside> ok
[08:44] <Darkside> well you'd better get some hardware ASAP And start testing
[08:45] <Guest80455> rules are in russian, but yes i'll send it in a bit
[08:45] <Darkside> the pi in the sky system might be a good starting point
[08:45] <Guest80455> we have almost everything
[08:45] <Darkside> i suspect the lora modems could be made to run at a higher speed
[08:45] <Guest80455> exept radio station
[08:45] <Darkside> it sounds like you bought a lot of stuff without thinkint too much about your system requirements
[08:45] <Darkside> i.e. your habduino shield - the most youll be able to get with that is maybe 300 baud
[08:45] <Darkside> which given your data requirements, is likely not going to be enough
[08:46] <Guest80455> we didn't have anough time but the rest of equipment is ok
[08:47] <Guest80455> the only problem was transmitting data on such long distances
[08:47] <Darkside> this is all a system design problem
[08:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> its los most fof the time so just a few mW is enough
[08:47] <Darkside> how much data you need to send sets your data rate, which sets parameters for your radio system
[08:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> but at higher datarates you need power
[08:48] <Darkside> the whole deploy parachute on descent at 12km thing worried me a bit
[08:48] <Darkside> worries*
[08:48] <Darkside> get that wrong, and your payload is going to impact
[08:48] <Darkside> for the vast majority of HAB flights, the payload is pre-deployed in line, and will start to unfurl immediately after burst - this is the safety approach
[08:48] <Darkside> safest*
[08:49] <Darkside> having it deploy when the payload is falling potentially at high speed, and you risk something going very badly wrong
[08:50] <Guest80455> the apparatus is lifted with the help of a balloon and is produced at an altitude of 25-30 km;  machine dimensions: no more than 300x300x300 mm, taking into account the cable fastening system;  weight of the device 750 - 1000 grams;  devices are fixed in series, creating a single chain from the ball-probe, for this, each device must have a mount for the halyard (eyelet) at the top and bottom of the device;  the mount mu
[08:51] <Guest80455> sorry i'll try sending theese rules again
[08:51] <Guest80455> the apparatus is lifted with the help of a balloon and is produced at an altitude of 25-30 km;  machine dimensions: no more than 300x300x300 mm, taking into account the cable fastening system;  weight of the device 750 - 1000 grams;  devices are fixed in series, creating a single chain from the ball-probe, for this, each device must have a mount for the halyard (eyelet) at the top and bottom of the device;
[08:51] <Guest80455> the mount must withstand a rupture of at least 80kg, the length of the halyard between the devices is 5 m, the diameter of the hole for the halyard is at least 10mm;  the lifting speed of the device is 47 m / s, the speed at landing is 58 m / s;
[08:51] <Guest80455> the use of high-pressure elements and / or pyrotechnic devices in the apparatus is allowed, but a specific implementation may be prevented from flying by a decision of the Expert Commission for safety reasons;
[08:52] <Guest80455> the transmitter of telemetry of the device should operate at a frequency of 422.4 - 434.1 MHz, (L or S range);  There are no requirements for vibration load.
[08:52] <Guest80455> so it is google translated so i hope you understand it
[08:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> cool so you can rocket out the parashute at 12000m :)
[08:53] <Darkside> jeez
[08:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> dont see anything about the datarates
[08:54] <Guest80455> we told them that we are going to make data rate 1 pac/sec
[08:55] <Guest80455> but they disareed
[08:55] <Darkside> do they provide any guidance on data modems?
[08:56] <SA6BSS-Mike> is there pricemoney or just the fame and glory of succeding :) ?
[08:56] <Guest80455> and told us to make it faster. because they need an accureta graph of the temperature and other stuff compared to altitude. the sattalite is falling too fast for the first 18 km so we need a lot of packages to "capture the moment"
[08:57] <Guest80455> no the dont provide guidence, it is Russia, what are you even talking about))
[08:57] <Darkside> hah
[08:57] <SA6BSS-Mike> hehe :)
[08:57] <Darkside> well, a lora modem running at a higher rate might be suitable
[08:57] <Guest80455> only hardcore stuff
[08:57] <Darkside> but you are goign to need decent gain tracking antennas
[08:58] <Darkside> or at least ones you can manually point
[08:58] <Darkside> else its not going to be reliable
[08:58] <Guest80455> can you give more information on these Lora modems and antennas
[08:59] <Guest80455> i suppose we need to build our own antenna
[08:59] <Darkside> i think you need to go find someone local to ask
[08:59] <Darkside> at least on the antenna side of things
[08:59] <Darkside> maybe find some local amateur radio operators
[09:00] <Guest80455> i would really appreciate some links too. we live in baku, so we dont have anyone who could help us with any advise, that is why im writing here))
[09:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> the upper band is regular hema radio so that would be easy to find antennas, dont know the regulation of tx lora over 70cm in Rus.
[09:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> *hema = ham
[09:02] <Guest80455> do you have any advises on how should we keep normal temperature on board
[09:02] <Guest80455> so our payload won't shut down from overheating or freezing
[09:02] <Darkside> in many cases you dont need to bother
[09:02] <Darkside> im guess you are starting with a foam box?
[09:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> the lora modules are both tx and rx so if I have understod things right you have a lora tx on the balloon and a lora module as a rx on ground
[09:03] <Darkside> because that usually provides enough insulation
[09:03] <Guest80455> should the payload be absolutely sealed?
[09:04] <SA6BSS-Mike> over 15000m the airpressure / densety is realy low so even though the air is -50 its not cooling the electronic as it should at ground level
[09:05] <Darkside> Guest80455: no
[09:05] <SA6BSS-Mike> I would say more habs overheat rather then frezze
[09:05] <Guest80455> but high up in the air there is no air and heat does not go away. so sometimes payload shuts doun because of the overheat
[09:05] <Darkside> Guest80455: you dont need to airtight seal the payload
[09:05] <Darkside> if can overheat if you have too much power dissipation, yes
[09:06] <Darkside> however a payload like an arduino, or evern a raspberry pi is usually fine
[09:06] <Guest80455> what is raserry pi used for by the way?
[09:06] <SA6BSS-Mike> yeah, iirc its the gopros that turns off of overheat
[09:07] <Darkside> Guest80455: err,
[09:07] <Darkside> controlling everything
[09:07] <Darkside> collecting data, etc
[09:07] <Darkside> what are you planning on using to collect sensor data and process it for transmit?
[09:07] <Guest80455> smt32
[09:07] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://www.dragino.com/products/module/item/106-lora-gps-hat.html
[09:08] <Darkside> ok, so you have people with good microcontroller experience?/
[09:08] <Guest80455> it an mculike arduino but more powerfull
[09:08] <Darkside> yes i am well aware what a STM32 is
[09:08] <Guest80455> yeah sure
[09:08] <Darkside> so if you have people who know microcontrollers, then interfacing to a LoRa module like a RFM98W shouldnt be too hard
[09:08] <Guest80455> we are all mathematicians and programmers
[09:09] <Ian_> Darkside SA6BSS-Mike http://www.cansatcompetition.com/mission.html may or may not be the one, but the CanSat is essentially an annual competition where the specs are layed, differently, down each year.
[09:09] <Guest80455> we just dont have experince with hab project, but we hope to manage these problems
[09:10] <Darkside> https://www.adafruit.com/product/3073
[09:10] <Guest80455> CanSat was envented in USa
[09:10] <Guest80455> but the did not have Hab projects included
[09:11] <Guest80455> russians included these type of projects for university students
[09:11] <Ian_> often the "satellite" payloads are lofted with a rocket, or in this case a balloon. High data rates and size/weight constraints (gotta fit in a soda can sized package) are the name of the game with a detachable "lander".
[09:11] <Guest80455> thank you for the links. where are you all fom by the way?
[09:11] <Darkside> <-- Australia
[09:12] <Guest80455> cool. we never hear any news from Australia
[09:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> <-- Sweden
[09:13] <Ian_> it seems that in this case the lofting by balloon may add a bit of down range excitement that could wrong foot a ZigBee solution.
[09:13] <Ian_> Google Cansat and be prepared to be swamped ... good luck guys, I have to go. orchestral rehearsals :)
[09:14] <Guest80455> ok, so i'll check the links
[09:14] <Guest80455> and then ill come back with more questions))
[09:14] <Guest80455> thank you
[09:14] <Darkside> Ian_: yes, the zigbee solution isnt going to go well with those kind of ranges
[09:15] <Ian_> Guest80455 do you have a link to the 2019 rules. Google translate can probably do a passably good job in that department.
[09:15] <Guest80455> http://roscansat.com/uchastnikam/polozhenie/
[09:15] <Guest80455> our paragraph is 4.4
[09:17] <Ian_> https://www.aviationpros.com/education-training/news/12439737/nasa-to-consider-application-of-azerbaijani-aviation-academy-for-intl-competition
[09:18] <SA6BSS-Mike> I like the guy to the left, thats a last minute mod :)
[09:19] <Guest80455> i could also give my facebook or whatsapp number because it is really unusual to use this messenger. or is it like some sort of anonymous group and you guys don't know each other in real life?
[09:19] <SA6BSS-Mike> Ive been foxhuntig ant its tiresome pointg even a small antenna for short times
[09:19] <Ian_> Rgr, your link translates good. I will read it later, but it seems that you are getting pushed for time to meet some of the design gates
[09:20] <Ian_> Some of us meet at an annual conference in the UK. the IRC format works well because the information is available to everyone to benefit from. I have been reading this channel for around six years now and don't really miss much at all.
[09:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> same here, works well, there is a log of the channel as well http://habhub.org/zeusbot/
[09:23] <Ian_> Batteries: use Ultimate Lithium and accept no alternatives for HAB use. L92(?)
[09:23] <Ian_> afk. I'll catch up later.
[09:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> ^^^True L92 is to recomend
[09:24] <Guest80455> oh
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[09:25] <Guest80455> we also wanted to use solar pannels to recharge batteries
[09:25] <Guest80455> is it nessesary?
[09:25] <Guest80455> or is it just useless idea?))
[09:25] <Darkside> for a short flight, not necessary
[09:26] <Guest80455> flight is going to be aruon 3 - 4 max 5 hours
[09:26] <Guest80455> around*
[09:27] <Ian_> CanSat is typically a very short flight. What category (para 4 in the rules) are you competing at - Student League
[09:27] <Ian_> 4. Championship structure The championship consists of several competitions, differing in content and level of training of participants:
[09:28] <Guest80455> so just in case my facebook is "Timur Kalyayev". hope no one hacks me)) it is just more familiar to me
[09:28] <Guest80455> yes, student leage
[09:28] <Guest80455> league*
[09:29] <Guest80455> there are no trainings for us
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[09:29] <Ian_> Timur, if you can use a regular nickname on the channel rather than the Guest which will change, it will make life easier for all when you return to the channel.
[09:29] <Ian_> I'm late, but will return in a few hours.
[09:31] <Guest80455> yeah, i tried but i believe i missed somethig while entering the channel and it just changed my name)
[09:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> Are loging in via the web https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels%3Dhighaltitude ?
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[10:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3B-25 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3B-25
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[10:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HA3PL-11 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HA3PL-11
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[11:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 037N1XRM-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=7N1XRM-11
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[12:08] <Bozzy> !flights
[12:08] <SpacenearUS> 03Bozzy: Current flights: 03PICO-32 144.251 MHz CTSTIA32/1000 10(33b0)
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[13:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KN4KXY-11 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KN4KXY-11
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[14:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BAG12-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BAG12-12
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[14:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0VJI-4 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0VJI-4
[14:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W5ACM-10 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W5ACM-10
[15:15] es5nhc (~es5nhc@96-247-29-85.dyn.estpak.ee) left irc: Ping timeout: 250 seconds
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[16:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KITE1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KITE1
[16:14] YO9GJX (~YO9GJX@109.100.112.75) joined #highaltitude.
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[16:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0AWK-15 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-15
[17:03] Guest65024 (~anony@cpe-85-10-26-226.dynamic.amis.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[17:18] Viproz (~Viproz@unaffiliated/viproz) left irc: Ping timeout: 250 seconds
[17:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0AWK-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-12
[17:21] Ian_ (4d66af83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.102.175.131) joined #highaltitude.
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[18:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W5ACM-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W5ACM-11
[18:26] <Pit[m]> damn it 😁
[18:26] Action: Pit[m] uploaded an image: eaba52b1-44fc-4e53-8fcb-28802da61a14.jpg (3058KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/aiBjLIIaQnhwtSpERhtTlDmT >
[18:33] <PE2BZ> Seriously ? That´s not nice !
[18:38] PE2BZ (~pe2bz@091-123-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[18:41] PE2BZ (~pe2bz@091-123-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[18:51] <chris_99> bugger :(
[18:59] pe2bz_ (~pe2bz@091-123-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) joined #highaltitude.
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[19:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AC6MH-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AC6MH-11
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[20:28] xfce (~anony@cpe-85-10-26-226.dynamic.amis.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:28] Nick change: xfce -> Guest84000
[20:30] YO3ICT (547554ec@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.117.84.236) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[20:31] Lahti (~Lahti@84-253-217-40.bb.dnainternet.fi) left irc: Quit: Lähdössä
[20:37] g0hww (~g0hww@46.18.105.34) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
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[21:05] Kodar (~Kodar@93-139-176-249.adsl.net.t-com.hr) joined #highaltitude.
[21:11] Timur_ (59dbb094@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.219.176.148) joined #highaltitude.
[21:11] <Timur_> hello again
[21:30] michal_f (~mfratczak@91-145-163-242.internetia.net.pl) joined #highaltitude.
[21:55] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03GATTO1 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GATTO1
[21:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 034X6UB-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=4X6UB-11
[22:07] chris_99 (uid26561@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcovdqoonkaevnhk) left irc:
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[23:46] F5MVO (52e6b25d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.230.178.93) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[23:49] Lahti (~Lahti@213-216-243-159.bb.dnainternet.fi) left irc: Quit: Lähdössä
[00:00] --- Sun Mar 24 2019