highaltitude.log.20190203

[00:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5PET_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5PET_chase
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[01:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Foxx01_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Foxx01_chase
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[01:21] <TimMc_> hey
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[01:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK3FTMC_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK3FTMC_chase
[01:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03IanAndChris_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IanAndChris_chase
[01:43] <TimMc__> battery pulled? :p
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[09:18] <Darkside> TimMc_: evening!
[09:18] <Darkside> TimMc_: i saw you were out chasing today
[09:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HG8LXL after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HG8LXL
[09:19] <TimMc_> hey
[09:19] <TimMc_> yeah, ran into Callum
[09:19] <Darkside> Ahh Callum = Fox?
[09:20] <TimMc_> I figured out the chaser button while I was 4km from the balloon lol
[09:20] <TimMc_> Yeah
[09:20] <TimMc_> I think that's his name
[09:20] <Darkside> ahh you used chasemapper?
[09:20] <Darkside> or the online tracker
[09:21] <TimMc_> I was using sondehub.org on my phone and ran auto rx on my laptop
[09:21] <Darkside> ah ok
[09:21] <Darkside> go take a look at chasemapper when you get a chance: https://github.com/projecthorus/chasemapper
[09:21] <TimMc_> had no cell coverage near the scout camp so i drove back and the prediction had placed the sonde further away
[09:21] <Darkside> its like sondehub, but works 'offline'
[09:22] <Darkside> or can work offline
[09:22] <Darkside> i run it on the same pi as runs auto_rx in my car
[09:22] <TimMc_> is auto rx configured to work with chasemapper out of the box?
[09:22] <Darkside> not out of the box, but its just a config option
[09:23] <Darkside> the chasemapper readme has information about data ources
[09:23] <Darkside> sources*
[09:23] <TimMc_> installed both
[09:23] <TimMc_> enabled UDP from auto rx I think
[09:23] <Darkside> ok
[09:24] <Darkside> anyway, the predictions from chasemapper will be somewhat more up to date than those on sodehub
[09:24] <TimMc_> I'll try again next weekend :p
[09:24] <Darkside> sondehub*
[09:24] <Darkside> hehe
[09:24] <Darkside> if the predictions are good anyway!
[09:24] <Darkside> i need to poke VK3FUR to setup one of these for melb: http://rfhead.net/sondes/adelaide/
[09:24] <TimMc_> i looked at predict on habhub and it seems off
[09:25] <TimMc_> Melbourne Airport coordinates, 5m/s, 30km burst
[09:25] <Darkside> i usually go with 27km burst, and 6m/s descent
[09:26] <TimMc_> do you use Virtual Private Server for IRC?
[09:26] <Darkside> though i see that melbs flight today got ot 30km
[09:26] <Darkside> i run irssi on a VPS, yes
[09:26] <TimMc_> i tend to login occasionally because if i leave my mobile connected i get kicked for annoying people with netsplits
[09:29] <TimMc_> thw sonde landed in someone's backyard hard today
[09:29] <TimMc_> powered off when it crash landed :p
[09:31] <Darkside> yeah that happens quote a lot
[09:31] <Darkside> quite*
[09:31] <Darkside> helps to be nearby when it comes down
[09:32] <Darkside> my aim is to be close enough to watch it land
[09:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kc3fxx_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kc3fxx_chase
[09:40] <TimMc_> looks like they mind land around Cranbourne VIC later in the week
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[10:01] <Lahti> Darkside: see now the Finnish tampere
[10:01] <Darkside> yeah, looks recoverable!
[10:02] <Darkside> very close to OH3LMN!
[10:03] <Lahti> is just on someone's plot
[10:04] <Lahti> I don't know OH3LMN but other Finnish stations I know
[10:06] <Lahti> in summer also dropped close to me and stayed hanging on high tree, I got 10km from the end of the batteries
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[11:06] <PE2BZ> ping Upu are the GPS modules from Ublox ¨on purpose¨ only findable in the Search window ? Expected to find them somehwere over the ¨GPS Modules ¨ section ?
[11:07] <daveake> That may indeed be deliberate :)
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[11:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HG8LXL-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HG8LXL-12
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[11:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ATB-HAB-1 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ATB-HAB-1
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[12:17] <PB0AHX-Herman> !flights
[12:17] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX-Herman: Current flights: 03HG8LXL 10(0f2b)
[12:22] <PB0AHX-Herman> some body know frequentie for ATB
[12:22] <PB0AHX-Herman> to late
[12:22] <PB0AHX-Herman> burst
[13:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC3HHV_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC3HHV_chase
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[14:35] <Thomac_AT> hello
[14:36] <PE2BZ> Hi!
[14:37] <Thomac_AT> he trackeris overloaded for a long time
[14:38] <Thomac_AT> there are many commercial radiosondes that do not belong here
[14:38] <PE2BZ> You have the HG8LXL flying ?
[14:40] <Thomac_AT> yes but I do not send data
[14:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> just set !RS_*; in search box top left
[14:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> and they all dissapear
[14:41] <PE2BZ> It´s floating nicely. Was that planned ?
[14:41] <Thomac_AT> does anyone have contact with admin?
[14:41] <Thomac_AT> best email contact
[14:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> they are in #habhub channel
[14:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> but id you dont want the sondes on the map just !RS_*;
[14:43] <Thomac_AT> Mike thanks
[14:44] <Thomac_AT> bye
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[14:59] <PE0SAT> Dwingeloo SDR, great talk, Always a challenge to keep up with Paul ;-)
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[15:22] <maria28> Im launching my first pico balloon in a few days. I use a calculator to know how much helium do I need to put.
[15:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> whats the balloons material? foil?
[15:23] <maria28> However in the past I saw people using Qualatex balloons and those have a size in inch, e.g. 20, 36 etc which you put in a calculator to check how much net lift etc you need.
[15:23] <maria28> Foil, yes.
[15:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> theres no need for a calculator, and probably is none around
[15:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> aim for 2gram of free lift, thats it
[15:24] <maria28> Ohh, ok. So how to make sure a balloon like that would fly in and stay around a jet stream?
[15:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> it will take a very light payload to get over 10000m
[15:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> on one of those balloons
[15:25] <maria28> Yes, my payload is 20 grams.
[15:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> that will get you up to around 6000m
[15:26] <maria28> Wow, how do you know this number out of your mind???? Impressive!!!
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[15:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> I have been around for some time and ofc sent of loas of picos (around 25-30)
[15:27] <maria28> I thought it depends on the size of a balloon, isnt it? So if I have 50 balloon than my payload can be slightly heavier in compare to e.g. 20 balloon...
[15:28] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes ofc, but to my knowledege there is no "party" balloons around in that size, or did you find any?
[15:28] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is a comersila balloon manufacturer, but kind of pricy
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[15:29] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://www.scientificballoonsolutions.com/products/
[15:32] <maria28> So what size were you talking about? :)
[15:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> the 36" / 90cm
[15:33] <maria28> Right, exactly
[15:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> I have started using this https://www.aliexpress.com/item/24-Inch-1pcs-Clear-Foil-Balloons-Transparent-Aluminum-Balloon-Wedding-Birthday-Party-Decorations-Balon-Globos/32699218436.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dQUylih
[15:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> cheaper and stays up longer
[15:34] <maria28> So how to calculate the altitude & necessary weight to put it in a jet stream ( I have a few specific targets: 9-12km )?
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[15:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is a calc here https://richardeoin.github.io/sp/
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[15:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> dont ask me how to use it :)
[15:35] <maria28> Great. I used the same calculator. All good.
[15:36] <maria28> If we have 36 balloon, what where should I paste this parameter into the calculator? Thats my struggle.
[15:39] <maria28> :)
[15:39] <PE2BZ> Is the balloon an original Qulatex foil balloon ? For that the answer is given behind the field
[15:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> here is some flight with weight and altitude data https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data
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[15:40] <PE2BZ> That makes Flightweight ;-)
[15:42] <maria28> Yes it can be.
[15:42] <maria28> ...original Qualatex.
[15:44] <maria28> I understand theres no option to calculate the weight of the payload, balloons size / helium to get the desired altitude. :(
[15:48] <maria28> Mike, At that UKhas micro data page people say they filled their balloon in 30%, 45-50% etc. How to measure this?
[15:48] <maria28> Sorry so many questions, but my launch is on Tuesday.
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[15:56] <SA6BSS-Mike> just fill so you have 2 gram of free lift
[15:57] <SA6BSS-Mike> fill any more and it will busrst
[15:57] <SA6BSS-Mike> burst
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[15:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> you can prestreach the envelope , get iy up to 0,700 - 0.750 psi and keep it there for a coiple of hours and you will gain a coupl of hundred meters
[15:59] <PE2BZ> Keep a balloon at spare
[15:59] <maria28> Yes, but how about the payload? You said 20 grams payload is too much... so whats the goal to put a payload & balloon at 10km?
[16:00] <SA6BSS-Mike> about 10 gram
[16:00] <maria28> Omg
[16:00] <PE2BZ> Would it make sense to go for 2 balloons Mike ?
[16:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> you gain about 500m with an extra balloon
[16:01] <maria28> I was going to ask about the same, 2 36 balloons - 1 payload. :)
[16:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> use Hydrogen and you gain about 8% altitude compared to He
[16:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/
[16:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is alot of good data on weight / altitude
[16:02] <PE2BZ> maria28 solar powered I guess ?
[16:02] <maria28> PE2BZ, you mean no battery?
[16:03] <PE2BZ> indeed, or do you only have batery (ries)
[16:04] <maria28> I dont have solar panels ( where should I buy it? ) - and I use 1 AAA battery...
[16:04] <PE2BZ> Did you test the payload for battery life ?
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[16:06] <michal_f> !flights
[16:06] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: Current flights: 03HG8LXL 10(0f2b)
[16:07] <michal_f> HG8LXL seems to not update time for each rtty sentence ?
[16:07] <SA6BSS-Mike> maria28: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Arrival-100pcs-Solar-Panel-Solars-Cell-0-5V-320mA-Color-Crystal-Solars-Module-DIY-Solar/32757770261.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.15.15205a662sGMkH&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10068_319_10059_10884_317_10887_10696_321_322_453_10084_454_10083_10103_10618_10307_10820_10301_10821_10303_537_536_10902,searchweb201603_56,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expi
[16:08] <maria28> Pe2bz, yes I tested it. 14 hours. Why?
[16:08] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://imgur.com/a/Qss1j3j different sizes after you power demands
[16:09] <PE2BZ> You want to launch a payload, get into a jet stream, which could bring it far away, but the battery is empty in 14 hours. Where do you launch from, where does is fly to, where are ¨the receivers´ ?
[16:10] <PE2BZ> Your payload at 10 km altitude could fly around the world several times
[16:10] <maria28> These panels seem to be quite big. :) Isnt that a problem? :)))
[16:11] <SA6BSS-Mike> Im using 6 of the smalles , they are 1.8 gram in total
[16:11] <PE2BZ> I see no flight announced for next tuesday so listeners are not informed of launch location and radio setup
[16:11] <PE2BZ> To use 6, the first time, I needed 20. They break easy or I am to rough ;-)
[16:12] <maria28> Haha
[16:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> hehe, yeah, they are quite fragile
[16:12] <maria28> So youre using solar panels and NO battery at all?
[16:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> me? yes
[16:12] Action: PE2BZ is humming a song from Sting
[16:12] <PE2BZ> me? no
[16:13] <PE2BZ> I flew one solar only, which landed in a tree at 30 m altitude and told me where it was the next 5 days after sunset....
[16:14] <PE2BZ> Then I prepared a solar where minutes before launch another ham wanted to take a close look how I soldered them and his sunglasses fell of on the panels.
[16:14] <SA6BSS-Mike> that sucks!
[16:14] <PE2BZ> maria28 but is 6 km not an option for a first flight ? Still missing info about listeners and launch location
[16:15] <PE2BZ> Indeed Mike. Soldered an CR123A to the PCB and enjoyed a 12 hour flight :-(
[16:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> start small, and then lern what you want to work on on the next flight
[16:15] <maria28> Mike, youre using 6 of the smalles - do you mean this exact size: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Arrival-100pcs-Solar-Panel-Solars-Cell-0-5V-320mA-Color-Crystal-Solars-Module-DIY-Solar/32757770261.html ?
[16:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> my first balloon had a small gas leak and landed in Poland, it was recovered 3 days later and relaunched by a polish ham
[16:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is a 39x19 as well
[16:17] <SA6BSS-Mike> look at the picture I posted
[16:19] <maria28> PE2BZ, 6km is okay but whats the point when I need to ( university project ) get telemetry data from 10km altitude? :) I will launch from oxford, UK.
[16:19] <SA6BSS-Mike> you could then use a latex balloon and aim for float
[16:20] <PE2BZ> Then there is no point. But do ALL the data have to be from 10 km ? Or can you launch, fly through 10 km altitude, burst, descend through 10 km altitude and only use that data ?
[16:24] <maria28> Mike, 39x19 - ok, I will buy it now because it takes forever to ship it from China to the UK. :) Could you possibly explain why its better to use 6 of the smallest size instead of lets say 1-2 big ones?
[16:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> its just a mather of you power demands, many uses 2 larger cells a spv1050 and a supercap
[16:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> but it will complicate the pcb and you realy not gaining mutch if any weight
[16:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> with 6 cells just fit a LDO
[16:28] <maria28> Mike & PE2BZ, no latex. :) :) .... and yes only data from a jet stream matters, thats the requirement. On top of that, Im concerned that if I use a solar panel and no battery than I will be able to receive Data only from the daylight... and nights ( no sun; no power from solar panels ) are interesting for me as well.
[16:30] <PE2BZ> maria28 if you launch next tuesday, from Oxford, at 09:30 UTC and ascend with 0.8 m/s (which is the max to get a possible floater) the altitude is about 10 km at 12:50 UTC that is 3.5 hours later and your payload will fly above the northsea by that time. There you need listeners from the Netherlands and Belgium to obtain your data. Battery will be empty 22:00 UTC a bit near Luxembourg....
[16:31] <PE2BZ> So with batterie(s) you never receive data from night....
[16:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> on a couple of my early rtty only used a aaa lithium and on top of that I soldered in 3 cells to power it during daylight, that way I could get +30h continius runtime and after that is till worked in daylight
[16:31] <PE2BZ> But no worries about me, I ordered Pizza just 10 minutes ago. Children agreed ;-)
[16:32] <maria28> PE2BZ, I will launch later I think. I have 20 grams payload right now... can you guys show me any photo of your precious pico balloons with solar panels?
[16:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> not so precious , we send them of never to be sseen again :) hang on...
[16:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://imgur.com/a/yNTdckH
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[16:35] <chris_99> cool, that's the whole payload?
[16:35] <PE2BZ> My 22 gram https://photos.app.goo.gl/phnLk9LyDHj17JbX9
[16:36] <maria28> 4,9 grams? WHAT!?! :)))
[16:36] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes, with a 144mhz antrenna its 5.1gram
[16:36] <SA6BSS-Mike> have a new pcb, hopefully arriving tomorrow it will be under 4
[16:36] <chris_99> are you in the UK? if so, didn't realise 144MHz was used
[16:36] <PE2BZ> My sunglasses experience https://photos.app.goo.gl/gWEPaaqERQ2kXQ4F6
[16:36] <SA6BSS-Mike> im not
[16:37] <chris_99> aha
[16:37] <chris_99> what's the microcontroller you're using?
[16:37] <PE2BZ> My ¨hanging in a tree¨ only 16 gram https://photos.app.goo.gl/DzYhLSwjD4bofHfD9
[16:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> pic18f26k22
[16:38] <PE2BZ> and find the bobo balloon https://photos.app.goo.gl/DzYhLSwjD4bofHfD9
[16:38] <PE2BZ> and find the bobo balloon https://photos.app.goo.gl/59hi6ZTDW8f4rep78
[16:39] <PE2BZ> the latest one is the right one
[16:39] <Viproz> hey guys, SA6BSS-Mike the image you sent with the different solar panels is home tested or advertised ? Do we really get this power output when using them in normal sun ?
[16:39] <maria28> Are you guys using wooden sticks to keep it stay and stiff together? :))) what kind of?
[16:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> I did some mesurment on them as I wanted to see the power out during low angles.
[16:40] <PE2BZ> From ¨sate¨ I use them or straws
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[16:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://docs.zoho.eu/sheet/open/0gfj501d9f66e2aca48b4ad2dc8ac6968f6c7/sheets/Ark1/ranges/Q7
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[16:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> thats short circiut current
[16:41] <PE2BZ> That requires an account to log in ?
[16:42] <maria28> Yes it does.
[16:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> im soldering them with wirese taken from multi stranded wires
[16:42] <maria28> PE2BZ, sure I can receive data from night as I planned to launch around 5-7pm to target night . :) again, Aaa Battery stays 14 hours in my case.
[16:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> aha
[16:43] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://imgur.com/a/DRH9nR6
[16:43] <YO3ICT> Mike, any chance that you can share that 18lf26k22 code?
[16:43] <PE2BZ> Yes, but how would you know there are receiving stations around ? My experience is in the UK and the Netherlands (that´s me) there are a lot of amateurs listening if informed in time, in BE there are 2, in LX i have seen none and Germany only 2 or 3
[16:44] <maria28> That sucks
[16:44] <PE2BZ> Mike you are missing 52x52 which gave me 660 mA short circuit current :-) In spring that was...
[16:44] <SA6BSS-Mike> its not mine and its not open source but all the info is here http://www.om3bc.com/docs/payload/payload_en.html
[16:45] <PE2BZ> maria28 sorry...
[16:45] <maria28> Cant we use stronger antennas? My uni has tons of crazy stuff in that matter & budget to buy new antennas.
[16:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> you have to find the non english section to get the latest hex and info
[16:46] <PE2BZ> with tons of budget you could set up a worldwide receiver network ;-)
[16:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> PE2BZ: :) dont have anything that big !
[16:46] <PE2BZ> Did you know about this https://www.faam.ac.uk/
[16:46] <PE2BZ> You can pay them to fly you with all equipment at 10 km altitude...
[16:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> sounds cheap !
[16:47] <PE2BZ> They even drop radiosondes on request. They descend with 12 m/s ....
[16:47] <PE2BZ> maria28 was mentioning budget ;-)
[16:47] <maria28> Pe2bz, network means many people around the world, right ?
[16:47] <PE2BZ> indeed !
[16:48] <chris_99> ooh that plane has fancy things on - https://www.faam.ac.uk/the-aircraft/capability/
[16:48] <PE2BZ> Like all universities ?
[16:48] <maria28> I mean, 1 location, lets say 10k budget for a radar or antenna...
[16:48] <YO3ICT> Mike, thanks!
[16:48] <PE2BZ> If they all set up a receiver which collects data...
[16:48] <PE2BZ> I am off to feed the children for a while... ( 14 and 17 YEARS old ;-) )
[16:50] <PE2BZ> No radar for this frequency use.
[16:50] <maria28> Pe2bz, they all? If its 1 receiver
[16:50] <maria28> ... what kind of to be able to get a data from... LX, Ukraine etc...?
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[16:50] <PE2BZ> Sorry, did you ever track any radio sonde on the tracker.habhub.org map to see the limited receiver range ?
[16:51] <PE2BZ> Take this for example https://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=5&qm=1_hour&f=HG8LXL&q=!RS_*;
[16:51] <maria28> Yes, Im aware about the radars it was just an example. :)
[16:51] <SA6BSS-Mike> aprs would liley be the way to go
[16:51] <maria28> Yes, I did.
[16:51] <PE2BZ> That one is floating at your requested altitude.... Look at the circle
[16:51] <maria28> Im aware its very limited.
[16:51] <maria28> The range is limited I mean.
[16:51] <PE2BZ> the blue line is the reception range in theory, the green lines are the receiving stations
[16:52] <maria28> Yes I know; But maybe with a very professional antenna or different kind of device theres a way to change it
[16:52] <maria28> ?
[16:52] <PE2BZ> You could not easy collect the information from all EU weathersondes for the night flight and day flights and collect the info from 10 km altitude ?
[16:53] <maria28> Change it - meaning increase the range.
[16:53] <chris_99> SA6BSS-Mike: you just geofence that sort of i guess? so that its not in use over the UK?
[16:53] <Viproz> maria28, if something is beyond the horizon it's beyond the horizon no matter which reciever you have
[16:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> dont know
[16:53] <PE2BZ> You are limited in transmitter power both by law and by power source. That defines your range, and so does your altitude
[16:53] <PE2BZ> And now I am serious afk :-)
[16:53] <maria28> Viproz, good point
[16:54] <chris_99> i've never used APRS also i'm wondering, is it easy to access data from that, over the internet somehow?
[16:54] <PE2BZ> aprs airborn is not allowed above the UK if I am right.
[16:54] <chris_99> mm
[16:54] <SA6BSS-Mike> aprs or lora network might be the way to go for automatic datacollection
[16:55] <PE2BZ> lora network might be a good idea !
[16:55] <maria28> Im using Lora...
[16:55] <Viproz> do you have some precise instrument you need to use or is it just for wind/temperature ?
[16:55] <PE2BZ> maria28 try if Bertrik is around
[16:56] <PE2BZ> maria28 lora as in ¨the things network¨ or lora as daveake his PITS tracker and or lora gateway ?
[16:56] <maria28> Viproz, wind temp for a start, no heavy data at the final stage...
[16:56] <maria28> Why Bertrik?
[16:57] <maria28> Lora communication module, right now its just one device. Later on I was told to build a network of those.
[16:58] <PE2BZ> He has experience with a LoRawan payload which was received by over 100 stations in the EU and that might be your goal also
[16:58] <chris_99> ooh there are internet things for APRS, just found this - https://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call= :)
[16:59] <PE2BZ> Most universities do have LoRa wan gateway receivers for that purpose. If I recall right the payload was received in Danmark over 600 km distance.
[17:01] <maria28> Yes they do have Lora wan gateway, mine has it as well.
[17:02] <maria28> I prefer Lora than APRS.
[17:04] <maria28> Ok, Lora will help but how would I collect data from all of the gateways in many countries? how does it work? Do I want to ask these Lora gateways operators FYI
[17:04] <maria28> * gateways operators to LISTEN, subscribe to my Lora tracker ?
[17:07] <maria28> :)
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[17:10] <maria28> Help help :)
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[17:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> there was a lora wan balloon flight last week, https://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=5&qm=All&f=tracher4&q=!RS_*;
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[17:21] <Viproz> stay around, people that know more about LoRa will show up at some point
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[17:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/labs/story/lora-module-test-with-a-stratospheric-balloon
[17:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/article/ground-breaking-world-record-lorawan-packet-received-at-702-km-436-miles-distance
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[17:36] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HA6SZT after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HA6SZT
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[17:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BAG02-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BAG02-12
[18:14] <PE2BZ> Ping bertrik could you be so kind to help maria28 a bit she needs to send a tracker at about 10 km altitude but needs it to be received over larger distance.
[18:15] <PE2BZ> maria28 I would first define what kind of data you need and take a look if there is a ready built sensor available for your purpose / aim.
[18:15] <chris_99> i think maria28 has left
[18:15] <PE2BZ> tnx Chris
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[18:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kc3fxx_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kc3fxx_chase
[18:30] Nick change: snakedtoo -> snaked
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[18:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 034Z7HKA-11 after 0317 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=4Z7HKA-11
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[18:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W3EAX-13 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W3EAX-13
[19:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC3HHV_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC3HHV_chase
[19:22] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PEPER-1 after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PEPER-1
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[20:23] <Ian_> [16:57] <maria28> Lora communication module, right now its just one device. Later on I was told to build a network of those. ;-) Networks for this stuff aren't built with $$ or ££ but enthusiasm, communication and lots of good will. Maybe this is what is known as degrees of separation . . . thesis v reality
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[20:29] <chris_99> can lora gateways connect to each other, either via RF or the internet?
[20:32] <bertrik> I'm not completely up to date w.r.t. specification, but as far as I know they operate independently from each other
[20:32] <chris_99> ahh
[20:32] <bertrik> so two gatewyas receiving the same packet will just send it both to the network server
[20:32] <bertrik> so deduplication has to be done upstream
[20:32] <chris_99> gotcha, cheers
[20:33] <chris_99> so now a similar question re. aprs, they do sort of act together i think, in that they can relay data between gateways?
[20:33] <bertrik> I have heard some talk about sending probe packets between gateways, to check the coverage, but it's not part of the original spec
[20:33] <bertrik> lorawan gateways are all connected directly to the internet
[20:34] <chris_99> oh i didn't realise that
[20:35] <chris_99> ok in that case, can a lora device send a message to a particular IP address then?
[20:35] <bertrik> no
[20:35] <bertrik> lora devices are connected to lora 'applications'
[20:35] <chris_99> ah, which the gateway defines i assume?
[20:36] <bertrik> so you can listen on the internet for traffic for a certain applicationj and you will receive all data from all nodes associated with that application
[20:36] <chris_99> hmm interesting
[20:38] <bertrik> so for example, habhub could define their 'application', so you would be able to receive all traffic from lorawan balloons/nodes registered under habhub
[20:39] <chris_99> gotcha, i don't understand what happens to the data though, from gateway ---> Internet, where does that data actually go?
[20:40] <bertrik> chris_99: the gateways are basically 'dumb', they just forward radio-signals to the network server, the network server does the smart stuff, like checking the signatures, deduplication and making sure the data ends up under the correct application
[20:40] <bertrik> the-things-network uses MQTT, a publish/subscribe message broker
[20:40] <chris_99> ok that makes sense, but what's a network server, and who is that owned by?
[20:41] <bertrik> the network server is owned by TheThingsNetwork
[20:41] <bertrik> you also register your application with them, and they usually generate the security stuff for you too, so in theory they can listen in on your traffic
[20:41] <chris_99> ahh, i think i get it now, so a % of lora gateways belong to that network right
[20:42] <bertrik> yes, there are a bunch of parallel networks now, TTN has a network of gateways, KPN (dutch telecom provider) has a lot of them in the netherlands, and there are more
[20:42] <bertrik> I don't know if they do any peering yet
[20:43] <bertrik> all of the networks use the same frequencies
[20:43] <chris_99> sounds pretty interest, i played with MQTT a bit recently
[20:43] <chris_99> *interesting
[20:43] <bertrik> so they receive each other's traffic but they can't decode it
[20:43] <chris_99> mm
[20:44] <chris_99> i'm gonna have to see if there's any open sdr tx/rx implmeentations
[20:44] <bertrik> there has been work on that, I think they work
[20:44] <chris_99> cool
[20:44] <russss> the protocol is patented though
[20:45] <chris_99> yeah that's a shame they did that :(
[20:45] <bertrik> the basic modulation is known, but there is some bit shuffling that is a bit fuzzy and the patent is vague enough to leave a lot of the details open
[20:45] <chris_99> are most lora messages encrypted
[20:45] <chris_99> out of interest
[20:46] <bertrik> how the bits are spread and how the error coding works
[20:46] <bertrik> LoRa is the modulation method, LoRaWAN is a kind of network specification using LoRa
[20:46] <bertrik> in LoRaWAN all messages are encrypted
[20:47] <chris_99> ahh
[20:47] <bertrik> encryption is in two layers, the first layer is more like a cryptographic checksum on the complete packet, the second is encryption of the payload data
[20:48] <chris_99> interesting thanks, and it's easy to create an 'application' with the things network?
[20:48] <bertrik> if you use TTN, it can generate a set of device side keys for you that you program into your node, so then the network can decode the packets
[20:50] <bertrik> yes, it's easy to create an application
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[20:50] <bertrik> if you have a gateway in range, you can just play a bit with it:
[20:51] <chris_99> yeah i'm gonna find that out
[20:51] <bertrik> 1) generate an app 2) add a node on the app 3) program the keys into the node 4) send some packets 5) hope they arrive?
[20:51] <bertrik> :)
[20:51] <chris_99> nice :) i could also setup my own gateway right
[20:51] <chris_99> pretty easily i assume
[20:51] <bertrik> a gateway can be a bit expensive, like at least 500 euros or so
[20:52] <chris_99> oh, why so expensive?
[20:52] <bertrik> a gateway listens on 8 frequencies at the same time, at 8 different spreading factors
[20:52] <chris_99> oh wow, i thought lora just used mainly 868 or 433
[20:52] <bertrik> so it's not just a basic receiver, but really a bunch of receivers in parallel
[20:52] <chris_99> mm
[20:53] <bertrik> the lorawan stuff is on 868 MHz, at least in europe
[20:53] <chris_99> but it has lots of channels then you mean?
[20:53] <bertrik> chris_99: yes, about 8 channels
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[20:54] <chris_99> nice, what's the max power they're allowed to use out of interest?
[20:54] <bertrik> a node typically switches channels to avoid getting too much usage on any particular channel
[20:55] <bertrik> I think it was about 25 mW
[20:55] <bertrik> or maybe 100 mW
[20:56] <russss> it's 100mW if they observe the duty cycle restrictions, which I think they do
[20:57] <bertrik> afaik, the gateway has the same duty cycle limits as a node
[20:57] <chris_99> i just found this - https://www.tindie.com/products/will123321/sx1308-raspberry-pi-lora-gateway-board/
[20:57] <bertrik> so it can't practically send an ack back for each packet received
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[21:01] <bertrik> chris_99: just register at https://account.thethingsnetwork.org and play around a bit with it at https://console.thethingsnetwork.org/
[21:01] <Ian_> Hopefully a relevant question, what's the protocol or understanding about the frequency of messages? I understand that APRS users would go bananas if you generated packets every ten seconds or so.
[21:01] <chris_99> bertrik: cheers, good idea
[21:02] <bertrik> Ian_: there a duty cycle restriction on the radio side, and a recommendation (a bit stricter) from the the-things-network side on how much time you are allowed to use the frequencies
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[21:02] <bertrik> but it's not enforced as far as I know
[21:03] <bertrik> IIRC, TTN recommends fewer than 30 seconds of total transmission time per day
[21:04] <bertrik> if you use the slower modulation (higher spreading factor, more sensitive), a transmission takes longer so you get fewer packets per day
[21:04] <Ian_> bertrik, I understand the radio transmission duty cycle restriction. Ah, 30 seconds a day might be a bit of a limiting factor if it was enforced and any perceived abuse would bring about enforcement. So something to bear in mind I guess.
[21:06] <bertrik> it's pretty smart that they specify it in terms of transmission time actually
[21:07] <bertrik> so you get some control over it, e.g. by not using the highest SF and by limiting your packet size
[21:09] <chris_99> One thing i don't quite get, do the lora devices send 'ping' messages every so often, to say they're nearby and what app they're part of? so that when i send a push message to my app, it knows where to send the messages?
[21:11] <bertrik> downlink (network -> node) messages are typically sent in a time slot following a uplink (node -> network) message
[21:11] <chris_99> ah
[21:12] <bertrik> so one of the gateways receiving the uplink message will send the downlink message
[21:12] <chris_99> cheers, makes sense
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[21:12] <bertrik> something like 4 seconds after the uplink message
[21:13] <bertrik> so the node only needs to pay attention for a relatively short time, and the network gets a few seconds time to prepare the downlink message
[21:14] <bertrik> the gateway sending the downlink message is probably selected based on received signal strength a perhaps based on duty cycle limitation of the gateway
[21:23] <chris_99> can you buy an off the shelf 868MHz collinear antenna out of interest for lora?
[21:25] <bertrik> I used a simple ground plane antenna for the gateway at work
[21:25] <bertrik> https://www.conrad.nl/p/antenne-aurel-gp-868-650200599-190123
[21:26] <chris_99> cool thanks
[21:26] <bertrik> attached to a antenna base, stabilized with 4 big tile bricks ...
[21:26] <chris_99> heh
[21:26] <chris_99> what gateway hardware do you use?
[21:27] <bertrik> this one https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/docs/gateways/multitech/
[21:28] <bertrik> and about 6 meters of aircell-5 cable iirc
[21:29] <chris_99> cool, looks fancy
[21:29] <bertrik> and I used a kind of inline lightning arrestor
[21:30] <chris_99> interesting , that goes between antenna and gateway?
[21:30] <bertrik> yes
[21:31] <bertrik> I don't think it's going to stop a direct strike, but perhaps at least lmit the damage on an indirect one
[21:32] <bertrik> it is a bit scary in the sense that the gateway is also an electrical connection between the 230V network and between the antenna and our LAN
[21:32] <chris_99> ah yeah!
[21:33] <chris_99> the antenna is outside then i assume
[21:33] <bertrik> yes, it's on the roof
[21:33] <chris_99> ahh
[21:34] <bertrik> we have a ground circuit around the edge of the roof and a bunch of poles on top of the roof
[21:34] <bertrik> like extending 3 meters up from the roof, with the lora antenna at less than 1m high from the top of the roof
[21:35] <bertrik> so most likely, I think lightning is going to strike the poles first
[21:36] <chris_99> ooh, that sounds interesting so the ground circuit is higher than the lora antenna you mean?
[21:37] <bertrik> there's the circuit around the edge, then maybe the lora antenna at 60 cm higher, then the poles at about 3 meter height above the roof
[21:37] <chris_99> ah gotcha
[21:38] <chris_99> so my antenna knowlege is very poor, does a ground plane antenna also have a gain, like a collinear antenna?
[21:40] <bertrik> yes, it has some gain towards the horizon I think, not sure how it compares to basic colinear
[21:42] <chris_99> gotcha ta, so you use lora on balloons i assume? if so what lora chip do you use for that?
[21:53] <craag> 1/4 wave groundplane has very little 'directivity' (aka. gain), however that makes it useful for balloons that are nearby (and so at a significant angle higher than the horizon)
[21:54] <chris_99> ahh cheers
[21:56] <craag> I recommend looking at some of the foundation ham radio license material, even if you don't want to take the exam it's got explanations of rf/antenna basics :)
[21:56] <chris_99> mm, i need to do that
[21:57] <craag> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Foundation-Licence-Now-Alan-Betts/dp/1872309801/
[21:58] <craag> (I believe you said you're uk based?)
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[21:59] <chris_99> yeah i am
[21:59] <chris_99> thanks , i'll order that now before i forget
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[22:22] <maria28> Im back. Reading chat log. :)
[22:24] <maria28> @ [18:15] <PE2BZ> maria28 I would first define what kind of data you need and take a look if there is a ready built sensor available for your purpose / aim.
[22:25] <maria28> Telemetry data such as temp, location. Nothing exceptional or heavy.
[22:26] <maria28> !flights
[22:26] <SpacenearUS> 03maria28: Current flights: 03HG8LXL 10(0f2b)
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[23:40] <samg3> I want to listen to all possible Cube sats. What Frequencies are used in or reserved for CUBE sats?
[23:40] <samg3> Those guys http://www.skcube.sk/skcube/first-slovak-satellite-skcube/ have Primary and Secondary channel. Do people always have 2 channels?
[23:40] <samg3> They use GMSK (Gaussian Minimum Shift Keying). GMSK is advantageous because it reduces sideband power or the power that frequencies directly above or below a given channel produce, which prevents interference from signal carriers on adjacent frequencies. This is mostly advantageous to cell phone companies, which must ensure that their signals do not pick up any interference from other companies.
[23:40] <samg3> Although GMSK reduces sideband power, it increases modulation memory in digital devices in which a previously received signal acts as interference for subsequently received signals.
[23:41] <samg3> This phenomenon can cause digital devices to confuse various signals with each other and prevent the device from performing the correct functions.
[23:41] <samg3> To correct this issue, signals that GMSK shapes must also be equalized with complex algorithms on the receiving device, requiring more hardware and more advanced software. Is GMSK Modulation always used or very popular in CubeSats? Why?
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[00:00] --- Mon Feb 4 2019