highaltitude.log.20190114

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[06:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03IanAndChris_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IanAndChris_chase
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[09:45] <Medad> Hello everybody, I am Medad from the Imperial college space society. I have a question. We intend to launch a pico balloon, a 32" qualatex balloon with a sub 30g payload from London, England. Specifically, Wormwood Scrubs(51.522315, -0.239699)
[09:47] <Medad> From a legal point of view, we will not be getting any CAA permission because it is small. And the launch site is more than 5km from the airport, Heathrow Airport. Do you think there could be any other legal obstacles?
[09:48] <cm13g09> Medad: I think you *probably* still need CAA permission for that.... but I'm not an expert in such things
[09:48] <craag> [disclaimer: I am not a lawyer] As long as the balloon + payload is within a 2m sphere, there aren't any explicit legal obstacles.
[09:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> provided your within the 2m diameter limit then nothing else needed
[09:49] <craag> [disclaimer: I am not a lawyer] However, common sense is called for in the regulations. So I would avoid predicted flights that land in built-up areas (ie anywhere in london), or that go into flight corridors (especially approach and takeoff).
[09:50] <craag> This indicates why we very rarely launch anything inside the M25 ;)
[09:50] <fsphil> especially at the moment given they're so jittery about small things flying around airports :)
[09:50] <cm13g09> craag: Or.... indeed... along the M4
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[09:51] <Medad> well, the objective is to send the balloon as far as possible. I think the common sense thing would be to ensure the flight predictions send the balloon FAR from the heathrow flight path.
[09:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Humm, the only sure direction would be North then, you don't want to fly over the prison and into the flight paths.
[09:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> that close to the prison might attract attention anyway!
[09:54] <craag> That means you'll be aiming for minimum lift, which runs the danger of underfilling and it descending slowly over built-up areas - In the current climate, I'd avoid this, it'd be mistaken for a drone and on the news within the hour I reckon.
[09:55] <craag> (As someone who's underfilled picos on more than one occasion..)
[09:56] <Medad> and there is the dense network of train rails just to the North..An unexpected decent may not be a great idea!
[09:57] <Medad> Has anyone had a go at using Lora for a round the world pico balloon attempt? Now that Lora has become quite widespread, it might be worth doing
[09:57] <Medad> I think most of Europe is covered
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[09:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> The straight Lora protocol is not that well covered outside the UK, I think your thinking of the networed version ?
[10:00] <Medad> yes, using LoraWan
[10:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Hardly used in the UK so far, and only seen the Dutch using it once or twice on a HAB.
[10:01] <craag> I'd suggest emailing the mailing list, there's a few dutch members who are very keen on it and would be able to give more insight.
[10:02] <craag> I'm unsure if the frequencies used are the same worldwide
[10:02] <craag> iirc USA doesn't have 868MHz?
[10:02] <craag> (as a license-exempt band)
[10:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Also I suspect contention when hitting all Nodes from a HAB might cause concern ?
[10:03] <craag> It may have been bertrik who did a lorawan flight? (sorry if not)
[10:04] <Medad> https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/article/ground-breaking-world-record-lorawan-packet-received-at-702-km-436-miles-distance
[10:04] <Medad> I was recently made aware of this record
[10:04] <craag> Yes that's bertrik :)
[10:05] <daveake> USA uses 915 rather than 868
[10:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Getting range really isn't a problem, its how the network handles the same packet coming from mutipile nodes is the problem!
[10:06] <daveake> You could switch frequency depending on location; 915 is close enough to 868 that it should work well enough
[10:06] <Medad> are there any other frequencies at other parts of the world?
[10:07] <Medad> Or do we only have to deal with 2 frequencies worldwide?
[10:07] <daveake> Is that a problem Geoff-G8DHE-Lap ? Sounds like something the protocol/gateways should easily handle
[10:07] <daveake> AFAIK it's just those 2 bands
[10:08] <daveake> We need a bertrik to join in here :D
[10:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> I don't know, depends if it was allowed for when the WAN protocol was designed, remember the fun that GSM had/has with multi access
[10:08] <daveake> heh
[10:08] <daveake> Does it have a wide mode setting? :D
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[10:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS18 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS18
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[10:30] <Medad> The South Koreans do HAB launches regularly! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhj4rH13eoc
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[10:32] <chris_99> interesting! they're using hydrogen i assume? since it mentions about not smoking
[10:35] <chris_99> they don't seem to have an automagic cut down?
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[10:37] <Medad_> I think they indeed use Hydrogen
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[10:39] <Medad_> https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1379.html
[10:39] <Medad_> Here is a very detailed look at what they do with the propoganda balloons
[10:40] <chris_99> coo, cheers
[10:40] <chris_99> *cool
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[10:43] <chris_99> oh they do have a timer that drops the leaflet part
[10:43] <chris_99> according to that pdf
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[10:45] <chris_99> "Both mechanical timers and chemical timers (such as a glue that dissolves after a given time) are said to be employed to drop the payload after three to four hours"
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[11:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03NLS1 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NLS1
[11:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WLN2 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WLN2
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[12:31] <AndyEsser> afternoon all
[12:32] <fsphil> o/
[12:35] <daveake> \o
[12:36] <AndyEsser> any developments in the world of HAB since I last popped my head up?
[12:37] <fsphil> I keep missing deadlines to launch something
[12:37] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:37] <AndyEsser> I would _very_ much like to finally launch something this year
[12:37] <AndyEsser> and maybe finally get back to tracking :(
[12:37] <AndyEsser> when I somehow have time between 3 contracts and family :(
[12:37] <AndyEsser> o yea and OU Degree stuff
[12:46] <cm13g09> Random, possibly useful info: HannsG HT161HNB touchscreens may be useful for in-car... they seem to cope with car batteries!
[13:18] <michal_f> AndyEsser: https://github.com/ogre/habdec if you were away for a month or so ...
[13:19] <daveake> Yes try this :) ^^
[13:19] <daveake> When I get time - maybe end of this week - I'll have a play with that Python client
[13:23] <AndyEsser> michal_f: ooo cheers
[13:24] <AndyEsser> I was working on my own RTTY decode last year, but haven't had the time to play any more on it
[13:26] <michal_f> test this one! If you join, my user base will be of 2 ! (with daveake ) :)
[13:27] <daveake> :)
[13:29] <fsphil> needs moar ssdv :)
[13:29] <fsphil> probably wouldn't be too hard adding that
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[13:31] <daveake> michal_f said he'd do that :)
[13:33] <michal_f> fortunatelly I did not agree any deadline ;]
[13:33] <michal_f> but I want it too
[13:34] <daveake> heh :D
[13:35] <michal_f> 1.5 stop-bit support is missing too
[13:35] <michal_f> and 5bit baudot, but this is rarely used, right ?
[13:35] <fsphil> yeah. I think the half stop bit is rare too these days
[13:36] <daveake> I don't recall either being used on any flights
[13:36] <michal_f> guys who repurpose Vaisala's use it from time to time
[13:37] <fsphil> I used it for some flights to get around a bug in fldigi
[13:37] <daveake> heh
[13:46] <Ian_> 1.5 stop bits was traditional 5bit Murray Code (ITA2) and has no real place at all in 7 or 8 bit ASCII operations.
[13:47] <michal_f> so maybe I just ignore it
[13:47] <michal_f> in favour of SSDV implementation
[13:49] <Ian_> Ham RTTY still uses 5bit, but you have to ask if it's at all relevant for the purpose you have in mind. Telemetry rather than general communications back haul.
[13:50] <michal_f> This is just for HABbers, not HAMs in general
[13:56] <fsphil> I only remember 5-bit being used once
[13:56] <fsphil> and it had to have a hack due to the lack of a character
[13:56] <fsphil> the * I think
[13:57] <fsphil> worth adding but only if you want to be comprehensive :)
[13:58] <fsphil> -bit
[13:58] <fsphil> -but
[13:58] <fsphil> arg
[13:59] <michal_f> live's too short to support somethng as weird as half-bit
[14:00] <daveake> It was nearly used on my first flight because when I looked up RTTY the definition mentioned Baudot so I coded that up :/
[14:00] <fsphil> true wizards use 1.75 stop bits
[14:01] <michal_f> heresy
[14:01] Action: daveake awaits darkside to pop up and tell us that true wizards don't need stop bits :D
[14:01] <craag> gonzo_ used baudot, I believe just so he could receive it on his teleprinter
[14:01] <daveake> heh sounds fair :)
[14:02] <daveake> Has he printed SSDV using it yet ?
[14:02] <fsphil> haha, ascii art. er, baudot art
[14:03] <daveake> I did consider doing ASCII art from a payload but typical HAB images aren't that impressive when converted
[14:03] <Ian_> Back in the day being a 5unit tape ape and a wizard on the (then) green keys put bread on the table. Made a few teleprinter pictures in my time, before I realised that they were somewhat over rated and gobbled resources that could be better spent reading the newspaper.
[14:03] <daveake> I installed a converter on a PI to try it, iirc
[14:04] <daveake> I had a good market at Uni, printing out biorhythm charts on a line printer
[14:05] <daveake> Obviously all the customers were doing silly art degrees :p
[14:06] <Ian_> The same lot would be reading their 'horrorscopes' in the newspapers regularly too.
[14:06] <Ian_> Hoping for an alignment of planets.
[14:06] <daveake> Pluto really fecked up those calculations
[14:07] <fsphil> only if you're below a certain height
[14:36] <gonzo_> I was going to do a baudot flight, but it wouldn't go through fldigi
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[14:49] <AndyEsser> 5-bits is all you should need :P
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[14:58] <chris_99> daveake: interesting, what do you mean by biorhythm out of interest, is that ECG + other things?
[14:59] <daveake> hah no it's just a stupid idea that was popular back then, that the body has fixed-period cycles for different things; you just need a birthdate to tell determine the cycles.
[14:59] <chris_99> ah heh
[15:01] <daveake> One of the charts is "intellectual" which might effect when's best to study
[15:01] <daveake> Anyway load of shit but fun to code up :)
[15:02] <daveake> And I accepted payment in beer ....
[15:03] <chris_99> hehe
[15:08] <fsphil> that might affect the cycle a bit
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[16:01] <Ian_> Mostly weakly students, looking for hope or to explain away their current poor performance, I would imagine.
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[16:32] <Medad> question: what program do you use to get updates from this chat on your devices? Surely not keeping the internet browser on all the time right?
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[16:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BZ-TCXO - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BZ-TCXO
[16:38] <vaizki> Medad: there are numerous IRC clients available to use natively on windows, osx, linux, mobile devices etc.
[16:38] <Ian_> Cough, Internet 24/7 and the Zeusbot log for anything missed . . . Vaizki scowls at me now!
[16:38] <michal_f> medad on my checklist is this: https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge/blob/master/README.md
[16:39] <vaizki> I am no judge of anyone's personal perversions but browser-based irc is a bit pushing it!
[16:40] <vaizki> Medad: what operating system are you on?
[16:40] <Ian_> Judging people's personal perversions is probably more than half the fun :)
[16:41] <Medad> windows
[16:41] <Medad> preferably on android as well
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[16:45] <vaizki> Medad: I use Hexchat on Windows (https://hexchat.github.io/), android.. no idea
[16:47] <vaizki> some people subscribe to irccloud.com which is basically a cloud client that keeps you on the channel
[16:47] <vaizki> there are other solutions for that "being online" problem as well.. ZNC etc.. but something like hexchat will get you into IRC :)
[16:48] <chris_99> irccloud works on android too btw
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[16:49] <SpeedEvil> I like quassel. This is a two part client - one of which you run on a machine up all the time, and then connect to that on android/iphone/windows/linux/... clients.
[16:49] <vaizki> I'm such an old irc dog that I am not the best to advise on a start client..
[16:49] <vaizki> starter-client even
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> With a unified permenant scrollback
[16:50] <vaizki> I run ZNC and then my devices all connect to it and sync the history.. have to check out quassel
[16:50] <vaizki> oh the days of irchat.el and ircII :)
[16:51] <russss> the quassel clients never used to be terribly good
[16:51] <russss> fwiw irccloud will also act as a bouncer now
[16:53] <vaizki> quassel ios client looks non-inspiring to say the least
[16:54] <russss> with the irccloud bouncer you can use the irccloud mobile apps and whatever command-line client you want on desktop
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[16:54] <russss> (full disclosure here, I work for irccloud)
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[16:55] <edmoore> i use irccloud
[16:55] <edmoore> v happily
[16:56] <vaizki> russss: irc is one of the last things where my comms are not clouded ;)
[16:59] <craag> apart from... the irc server... ;)
[17:09] <vaizki> well true.. that runs on other people's computers aka cloud
[17:27] <Medad> thanks for the suggestions I will look at them
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[17:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Pu5pep-6_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Pu5pep-6_chase
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[18:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3S25 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3S25
[18:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0AWK-14 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-14
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[19:25] <bertrik> craag: daveake I helped in tracking that LoRa flight with a kind of software bridge between the TheThingsNetwork LoRa network and the habhub network
[19:25] <bertrik> I didn't actually launch the balloon
[19:26] <daveake> Ah right
[19:26] <bertrik> I think it was never really meant to be recovered, but it was nice to see it on the habhub.org map
[19:26] <daveake> But you have flown LoRawan trackers?
[19:27] <bertrik> no, not personally
[19:27] <daveake> Ah ok
[19:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0AWK-15 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-15
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[19:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KDPAWK-15 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KDPAWK-15
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[21:40] <Viproz__> daveake, you guys are working on habdec ?
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[21:41] Nick change: Viproz__ -> Viproz
[21:42] <daveake> I'm using it.
[21:43] <daveake> I have a headless pi intended for the car, and another pi with touchscreen in a small case.
[21:44] <Viproz> Oh okay, I saw that it's using direct IQ data to decode the FSK so I was just wondering if it was decoding in FM before decoding the FSK or if it was doing it directly form IQ
[21:46] <daveake> michal_f wrote it; I'm just a user :)
[21:47] <Darkside> Viproz: if we switch to a different fsk demod, i'd beusing david rowe's one
[21:47] <Darkside> however it needs a bit of work to perform well with short packet bursts
[21:47] <Viproz> You know if it's better ?
[21:48] <Darkside> well its actually *tested*
[21:48] <Darkside> i.e. there's BER vs Eb/N0 results for it
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[21:48] <Darkside> and unit tests, etc...
[21:49] <Darkside> most RTTY decoders seem to just be thrown together without regard for performance
[21:49] <Darkside> however it would require a bit of work to make it useful for our purposes
[21:49] <Viproz_> choppy internet apparently, it's tested ? I didn't get the next sentense and the bot hasn't updated yet
[21:49] <Darkside> 08:21 < Darkside> i.e. there's BER vs Eb/N0 results for it
[21:50] <Darkside> http://svn.code.sf.net/p/freetel/code/codec2-dev/README_fsk.txt
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[21:53] <Darkside> david and i have used the fsk demodulator in a few projects for our high altitude balloon launches
[21:53] <Darkside> you can feed it either real samples or complex samples as an input, and it can produce either soft-bits or hard-bit output
[21:54] <Viproz_> So this demodulator uses direct signal ?
[21:54] <vaizki> soft bits as on floats between 0 and 1?
[21:55] <Darkside> vaizki: not sure
[21:56] <Darkside> Viproz_: the demod *can* take pretty much raw IQ in from a SDR, but thats not generally a good idea
[21:56] <Darkside> as the frequency estimation could get confused by the presence of other strong signals within the passband
[21:56] <Darkside> better to do some degree of filtering beforehand
[21:56] <Viproz_> I was googling just that vaizki seems that hard = 1 or 0 and soft just a value and the decision of calling it 1 or 0 hasn't been made yet
[21:57] Nick change: Viproz_ -> Viproz
[21:57] <Darkside> im not 100% sure what the format of the soft-bit output is, but its being used as an input to a LDPC error correction system in our wenet imagery system
[21:57] <Viproz> This opens many more layers of improvement of RS decoding then :p
[21:57] <Darkside> https://github.com/projecthorus/wenet/blob/master/start_rx.sh#L93
[21:58] <Darkside> theres an example of me running it
[21:58] <Darkside> Viproz: definitely, though i think there may be some improvement required to make it perform well with short packets
[21:59] <Darkside> will be fine as-is on sondes that transmit continuously, like the RS92/M10/others
[21:59] <Darkside> RS41 uses 1 second packets with gaps in between
[22:00] <Darkside> anyway, i need to get to work
[22:00] <Darkside> back later
[22:00] <Viproz> M10 also have gaps, more gaps than data actually I think
[22:00] <Viproz> Okay, I'll probably have questions !
[22:01] <Darkside> david rowe (modem author) is sometimes in #freedv
[22:02] <Darkside> he can answer detailed modem questions
[22:02] <Darkside> or e-mail him at david@rowetel.com
[22:03] <Darkside> ok cya
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[00:00] --- Tue Jan 15 2019