highaltitude.log.20190106

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[09:45] <PE2BZ> Heppie_2E0VTO tnx for the info. I cannot disable APRS completely but I can set it to transmit once every 100 rtty strings on an ISM frequency.
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[09:56] <fsphil> PE2BZ: a possible loophole would be to transmit on the ISM frequencies at <= 10mw
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[09:58] <PE2BZ> thanks. the output power is 8 mW so that´s ¨solved¨. But there is no APRS rx network in the ISM 70 cm band so it´s no use to tx a lot of aprs. It´s for the school project in the UKHAS group.
[09:59] <fsphil> that's your only option
[09:59] <fsphil> the rules don't let you transmit at all from the air on amateur bands in the uk
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[10:00] <fsphil> I don't expect there to be many 70cm aprs stations anyway
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[10:00] <fsphil> you'd get far more stations listening to the rtty if you announce it on the list :)
[10:01] <PE2BZ> It´s no problem to set the APRS to an ISM frequency, just have to choose something away from the RTTY frequency to not confuse fldigi
[10:01] <PE2BZ> Well, that´s going to be part of Daisy´s homework :-)
[10:02] <PE2BZ> I take care of the payload doc the RS41 tracker and parachute.
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[10:07] <PE-Ballon> test
[10:13] <Viproz_> fsphil, where is that list ?
[10:15] <fsphil> Viproz_: http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
[10:16] <PE-Ballon> tnx
[10:17] <Viproz_> Thanks, do they usually go further than normal RS ?
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[10:18] <Viproz_> Thanks, do they usually go further than normal RS ? (sorry unstable connection)
[10:18] Nick change: Viproz_ -> Viproz
[10:23] <PE2BZ> Viproz_ ¨further than normal RS¨ ? I am not shure I understand the question ?
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[10:33] <olaf_> hi how much helium gas should i need for a 600g balloon with a 1kg payload to launch to 18000m ? thanks
[10:34] <PE2BZ> olaf_ you know there are calculators on http://habhub.org/calc/ ?
[10:35] <Viproz> PE2BZ, we are talking about ham HAB launches right ? I should have say further than meteorological RS launched every day
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[10:37] <PE2BZ> Viproz indeed we are :-) Usually the range is about the same (travelled by air) but the rx range for RS-41 in meteorological use is larger because of the about 240 mW output measured on an unmodified RS41
[10:37] <olaf_> How much helium should i normally buy/pay? it says with the calculator that I need 9000L of helium, wont that cost 1000s of pounds? thanks
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[10:38] <Viproz> (the bottom of it is that I am in France but not on right on the top north so if they travel pretty far I'll be able to receive it otherwise I won't) (and deconnected again, if you sent something between this message and my last I didn't get it)
[10:38] <PE2BZ> olaf_ I do get for 1000 gram mass, a 600 gram Hwoyee and 5 m/s ascent rate a burst at 26 km and 2600 l HE
[10:39] <PE2BZ> Viprox you are familiair with the predictor page ?
[10:39] <olaf_> My target burst altitude is at the stratosphere, around 18000 m
[10:40] <Viproz> A bit yes
[10:40] <PE2BZ> olaf_ if you NEED to burst at 18000 meter you need a very high ascent rate which requires a lot (more) lifting gas.
[10:40] <PE2BZ> Viproz http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/herstmonceux/
[10:40] <olaf_> Yeah that makes sense
[10:41] <olaf_> The problem is I'm launching from Oxford, so if the ascent rate is too low, the winds will bring the balloon in the sea/other countries
[10:41] <PE2BZ> olaf_ so if you need to burst at 18000 m I would go for 300 gram balloon ans about 2000 l of HE
[10:42] <olaf_> OK thanks. How much does it cost for around 2000L of helium?
[10:43] <olaf_> I'm just trying to limit the cost here, I'm doing this project for a school experiment
[10:45] <PE2BZ> I am not from the UK, I live in the Netherlands, we ¨rent¨ a bottle with 30 l @ 200 bar pressure and fill a number of balloons.
[10:46] <Viproz> I didn't know about this feature, it's probably going to be hard for me to hear it, I'm in Troyes and it's going to be low near Paris I'll try with a Yagi tho
[10:46] <olaf_> The system is the same in the UK I think. How much ¬ do you usually pay for 1000L?
[10:48] <PE2BZ> olaf_ about 100 Euro for the content of the bottle.
[10:48] <PE2BZ> https://www.boconline.co.uk/shop/en/uk/balloon-gas-cylinder?_ga=2.196662884.933860174.1546771599-310473571.1546771599
[10:48] <olaf_> Right and with that bottle how much can you fill?
[10:48] <PE2BZ> the one from the url is 9 m3
[10:49] <PE2BZ> that depends also. We fly from 30 gr foil balloon to 600 gr Hwoyee so it´s not an exact figure. Usually we have 1 or 2 party balloon tanks as reserve if we just did not have enough ;-)
[10:50] <PE2BZ> https://balloonhelium.co.uk/main/pricing
[10:50] <olaf_> So with a 1.81m3 cylinder, would i be able to fill a 300g 2000L balloon?
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[10:52] <PE2BZ> Someone can correct me but with the cylinder from the bocoonline url I assume you get a total of 9000 liter of HE
[10:52] <PE2BZ> so you could fill 4 of those with 2000 l
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[10:52] <PE2BZ> No I am wrong.
[10:53] <PE2BZ> I correct myself
[10:53] <olaf_> Ohhhh thanks so much. It's because the He is pressurized right? So I don't get the volume of the cylinder in the balloon, I can get much more right?
[10:54] <olaf_> So with a 1.81m3 cylinder, how many 2000L balloons can I fill?
[10:54] <Viproz> olaf_, yeah it's the equivalent volume, you can probably get it with the perfect gas formula
[10:54] Action: PE2BZ is confused about the numbers on that webpage
[10:55] <PE2BZ> V (small) size cylinder fills 250 x 9 inch balloons or 125 x 18 inch foil balloons
[10:55] <olaf_> Correct me if I'm wrong: 1.81m3 of pressurized He DOESN'T give you 1.81m3 of He in the Balloon, because it is pressurized?
[10:55] <PE2BZ> That´s not right indeed !
[10:56] <PE2BZ> The 1.81 m3 is the content of HE so that´s about 1810 liter HE
[10:56] <PE2BZ> but they state V (small) size cylinder fills 250 x 9 inch balloons or 125 x 18 inch foil balloons
[10:56] <olaf_> Yes, but i can fill more than 1810 liter because its pressurized
[10:56] <olaf_> thanks
[10:56] <Viproz> the biggest cylinder is 0.062734969625 m³ in pressurized volume so the number they give must be the number in the ballon at 1 bar of pressure (atmospheric pressure)
[10:57] <olaf_> Yes
[10:57] <Viproz> no 1810 liter is already at normal pressure
[10:57] <PE2BZ> No you can not fill more as one balloon ! The 1810 liter is at normal pressure
[10:58] <olaf_> Wait so with a 1.81m3 cylinder, how many 2000L balloons can I fill? Less than one because 1.81m3=1810L ?
[10:58] <PE2BZ> indeed !
[10:58] <olaf_> OK so the volume of the cylinder gives me the volume of He I can fill a balloon with
[10:58] <olaf_> right?
[10:59] <PE2BZ> Right !
[11:00] <PE2BZ> HE is about twice the price in the UK ?
[11:00] <olaf_> Thanks for everything guys
[11:01] <olaf_> So 1.81m3 costs 67£
[11:01] <olaf_> https://balloonhelium.co.uk/main/pricing
[11:01] <olaf_> That website seems cheaper
[11:02] <Viproz> Is hydrogen often used for ham launches ?
[11:02] <PE2BZ> olaf_ you don´t count the VAT ?
[11:03] <olaf_> Oh youre right
[11:03] <olaf_> Forgot
[11:04] <olaf_> So it's 80£ now
[11:04] <olaf_> Where do you recommend buying weather balloons in UK/EU?
[11:04] <olaf_> I've checked eBay but I'm not sure if it's good
[11:05] <PE2BZ> Viporx over here not because of the risks. We do mostly fly from a location at our job, at 27 m asl which is a room with technical air conditioner installations. We fill indoor with HE, open the overhead door, walk outside and ¨let it go¨ . We are allowed to use hydrogen but we have to fill outside, and have to store the bottle(s) in a special container on the outer part of our terrain.
[11:05] <PE2BZ> olaf_ http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[11:05] <olaf_> Thanks
[11:05] <PE2BZ> That´s our most favourite supplier
[11:07] <olaf_> Kaymont or Hwoyee? What do you recommend?
[11:07] <PE2BZ> We flew Pawan and Hwoyee
[11:07] <PE2BZ> but I think it´s not a big difference
[11:08] <PE2BZ> Viproz monday around 12 UTC http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/uccle/
[11:08] <Viproz> Okay yeah I forgot that they had to be filled inside for the wind
[11:08] <PE2BZ> @ 403.500 MHz RS41 with Ozon sonde data as extra
[11:08] <olaf_> Thank you so much for everything
[11:08] <PE2BZ> Your welcome
[11:08] <olaf_> this helped me a lot
[11:09] <PE2BZ> Now I am going to find a way to measure a power RF mosfet, dual type.....
[11:10] <olaf_> Last question: do you know if there's an alternative to the Pi in the Sky chip? https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=62&product_id=52
[11:10] <Viproz> Wow this one looks great, might even be able to catch it depending on where it lands, how do you know that they are going to launch one ?
[11:10] <olaf_> I'm looking for live transmission of data form a raspberry pi
[11:12] <PE2BZ> Viproz on ¨not common holidays¨ Uccle launches every monday, wednesday and friday with one RS41 and Ozon sensor.
[11:13] <PE2BZ> In this image http://websdr.pe2bz.nl:8080/2019-01-04_15-26-26_waterfall.png (which is removed after one day ) you can see the launch time from last friday
[11:18] <Viproz> PE2BZ, thanks a lot for all the info, I need to switch train , bbl
[11:21] <olaf_> What parachutes do you recommend?
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[11:24] <PE2BZ> for 1000 gram payload?
[11:24] <PE2BZ> I guess there are rules which tell you what would be the max descend rate.
[11:25] <PE2BZ> and 1000 gram could need a ¨serious chute¨ like 100 cm diameter
[11:28] <olaf_> Yeah 1000g payload
[11:31] <PE2BZ> the parachute links also has a calculator http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[11:31] <ulfr^> iirc we had 6m/s descent on our payloads
[11:31] <ulfr^> which was fine
[11:35] <PE2BZ> olaf_ any chance you can get a hold of a recovered chute from a radiosonde ?
[11:36] <PE2BZ> Or, as school project, make a parachute yourself with garbage can bags and glue ? Has been done before with good results
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[11:48] <olaf_> Thanks
[11:50] <olaf_> PE2BZ: luckily the balloon is only 20£ so thats fine for us.
[11:52] <PE2BZ> Ok, what´s the schools name if I may ask ?
[11:53] <olaf_> Lycee Francais Charles de Gaulle
[11:53] <PE2BZ> Oui oui :-)
[11:53] <olaf_> haha
[11:53] <PE2BZ> I have a conversation about a school flight from London also on the ukhas groups
[11:53] <olaf_> With the calculator i got a descent rate of 6.8 m/s with a 30 inch spherachute, seems good no?
[11:54] <PE2BZ> I just wanted to know if they where 2 different projects
[11:54] <olaf_> oh right
[11:54] <olaf_> this is the first time i'm talking about it online
[11:54] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[11:54] <PE2BZ> The rules over here say if the payload weighs more as 35 gram we should aim for descent rate < 5 m/s
[11:55] <PE2BZ> But the pro is we can fly without asking for a permit in most circumstances :-)
[11:55] <olaf_> Ah that's good
[11:56] <olaf_> I have to file a permit 28 days early
[11:56] <PE2BZ> But I would say 7 m/s for a box of 1 kg is quite high.
[11:56] <PE2BZ> But someone with experience from the UK may answer that also
[11:57] <olaf_> ill try maybe around 6m/s
[11:57] <olaf_> to be safe
[11:57] <PE2BZ> What´s in it for the 1 kg ?
[11:59] <olaf_> Not sure yet
[11:59] <olaf_> 1kg is in case we need that much
[12:00] <olaf_> but we're just going to use a GPS, Raspberry Pi, Sensor hat, GoPro, and maybe other thigns
[12:00] <olaf_> Should all be less than 1kg
[12:03] <PE2BZ> You knwo what batteries to use ?
[12:03] <olaf_> Lithium Ion most probably
[12:04] <olaf_> I might add a portable Li-Ion charger to charge the RBP and the camera
[12:07] <PE2BZ> the Li-Ion need good isolation. Energizer Lithium is mostly used
[12:09] <chris_99> they're none rechargeable right?
[12:12] <chris_99> is that used, as it can cope with less than -20C
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[12:15] <PE2BZ> Non rechargeble, to -50 degrees
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[12:18] <chris_99> cool
[12:20] <PE2BZ> Just take care not to order the type with recycled parts. Same capacity, but more weight and higher ¨lowest temperature¨
[12:21] <chris_99> "the type with recycled parts" -- sorry what do you mean by that
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[12:38] <PE2BZ> https://earth911.com/business-policy/energizer-ecoadvanced-is-the-worlds-first-aa-battery-made-with-recycled-batteries/
[12:40] <chris_99> ahh, cheers
[12:41] <PE2BZ> about 24 gram each instead of 16 gram
[12:44] <PE2BZ> and -18 to 55 C https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1263846-REG/energizer_xr91bp_4_ecoadvanced_aa_batteries_4_pack.html
[12:49] <Ian_> ENERGIZER L92 ULTIMATE LITHIUM accept no substitutes :)
[12:50] <Ian_> If it's not L92, it's not fot you
[12:52] <Ian_> afk reeboot
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[12:55] <Ian_> And back
[13:04] <fsphil> phew
[13:10] <PE2BZ> no jupio lithium either. Almost not possible to solder and faster voltage drop on 2 different flights
[13:13] <chris_99> l92 is triple a?
[13:14] <chris_99> would l91 not be better?
[13:14] <PE2BZ> Good catch. Ian_ needed to reboot and reset
[13:14] <PE2BZ> I just have 120 L92 returned to the store to be replaced for L91
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[14:27] <Ian_> The L192 comes in AA and AAA sizes.
[14:29] <Ian_> No imagination needed. In 2017 (I think) there were a couple of flights which were lost because the user chose to use Alkaline or other technologies, because they had been watching the TV adverts . . . and more importantly . . . believing them :)
[14:30] <Ian_> Lots of HABbers have done the research for us already.
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[14:53] <SpeedEvil> You can insulate the electronics box well, but that raises other issues and overhating can become a real issue
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> (for several hour flights anyway)
[15:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BGS-HAB - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BGS-HAB
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[15:03] <PE2BZ> Did you switch the train to the right track ;-)
[15:06] <Viproz> Yeah with a bit of time to spare in Paris ^^
[15:12] <chris_99> oh cheers Ian_ sorry didn't realise that
[15:14] <chris_99> actually - http://data.energizer.com/europe/ seems to list l92 as only aaa?
[15:15] <PE2BZ> Well, the L92 ¨it´s not for you¨ is the AAA but he tried to save it with an L192 which I cannot find on the internet.
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[15:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Ve6014swl_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Ve6014swl_chase
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[17:20] <Ian_> Come on guys, I'm full of man flu. L91 and L92 (sorry) http://www.sbszoo.com/bear/construction/traker/RTrak/BestBattery.htm
[17:23] <chris_99> sorry heh, i was just confused
[17:23] <chris_99> nice link too
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[17:33] <Ian_> No probs. I honestly thought that you had been around here for a few years chris_99 and would have known. I bought some a while ago and expect that they will be used . . . eventually.
[17:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6STS-13 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6STS-13
[17:34] <chris_99> cool. i'm just contemplating getting an antenna, i've only once picked up a ballon once, using a rather naff, old antenna, which i've no idea what freq. it was for. this time i'm thinking of trying to put my SDR to some use
[17:36] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PEPER-1 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PEPER-1
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[17:40] <Viproz> chris_99, it is very simple to make an antenna for 403MHz and it yield really good results even with a not so great one
[17:40] <chris_99> the groundplane type people where talking about the other day?
[17:41] <Ian_> I have a couple or LoRa receivers but not many flights come near the West Midlands. Yes exactly those.
[17:41] <chris_99> would a groundplane be better than a colinear type? or would you use a groundplane only when the balloon is very high
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[17:47] <Ian_> Colinear for a ground station (greater gain, but flatter radiation pattern) for distant HABs. GP (less gain, higher radiation angle) costs almost pennies to make and is smaller. Similarly a 1/4 wave GP magmount for mobile chase operations. Colinear Diamond X30, Watson W50(?) or better or a Moonraker special
[17:47] <Viproz> with my GP (the 3D printed one, a bit fancy but unnecessary) I can receive and decode a M10 that is about 150km away when it is 7km high
[17:54] <Ian_> Collinears: the trade off is generally size and cost against gain. I have a W300 with 6.5dB/9dB gain (2m/70cm). The W30 is 3dB/6dB. The cost is £99 v £49.
[17:54] <Ian_> Diamond was the original and Watson came along a couple of years later with the same job at a slightly lesser price.
[17:55] <chris_99> ah, would you recommend the w30 over the diamond 30?
[17:55] <Ian_> Where there is an option between VHF(SO239)/PL259 connectors or N-Type, got for the N-Type where possible.
[17:56] <chris_99> ah gotcha
[17:56] <chris_99> my sdr takes sma, so i then get a convert to sma -> n i guess
[17:56] <Ian_> Reason: much about 100-150MHz the PL259 impedance begins to depart from the ideal 50 Ohms.
[17:58] <Ian_> Yes, but with small radios you might be better with a pigtail sma to N-Type adaptor for practical strain relief considerations.
[17:58] <chris_99> ah yeah
[17:58] <chris_99> good point
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[18:01] <Ian_> I never ever considered putting RG213 cable into the top of a hand help txcvr, but used a BNC to SO239 pigail made from RG58 and held that with the txcvr so that I didn't get the AE socket jacked off the top. I have seen too many 1/4" jack plugs mounted at thigh height get to rip apart the attendant socket when someone brushed by . . . ouch WTF!
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[19:32] <chris_99> out of interest, is there such a thing as a transistor based antenna switchert
[19:32] <chris_99> *switcher
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[19:48] <chris_99> oh just found - https://www.digikey.co.uk/en/articles/techzone/2016/dec/how-and-why-to-use-pin-diodes-for-rf-switching
[19:52] <russss> RF relays are generally more useful for antenna switching
[19:53] <chris_99> ah cheers. There's no such thing as something to 'combine' multiple antennas is there? rather than switching between them?
[19:58] <dbrooke> doing that won't give the result you probably expect, they'll tend to act as one antenna with a radiation pattern determined by the phase of the signal at the various elements
[19:59] <chris_99> ahh gotcha, thanks
[20:00] <chris_99> the rf relays look good though. Anyone use a prebuilt module for those?
[20:12] <dbrooke> I'm currently using one of these to switch an antenna between my weather sonde auto-rx and amateur HAB receiver https://www.thedxshop.com/tohtsu-cx-540d-coaxial-relay.html
[20:13] <dbrooke> costs more than another antenna though 8-)
[20:14] <chris_99> yeah heh, cheers
[20:15] <russss> you can get PCBs for it but a lot of them are inexplicably expensive
[20:15] <dbrooke> I already had it (got a few for rather less than than at a radio rally probably 30 years or so ago)
[20:17] <chris_99> i assume designing PCBs for rf requires line length matching and somehow dealing with skin effect?
[20:19] <dbrooke> re the earlier discussion these are some combiners/splitters https://www.thedxshop.com/power-combiners-splitters.html
[20:20] <dbrooke> re PCBs, yes, you ideally want an impedance matched transmission line
[20:20] <chris_99> cool. would you generally use those with the same type of antenna then, to boost the gain maybe? as you mentioned about it not giving the results yo'd expect?
[20:20] <chris_99> *you'd
[20:21] <dbrooke> yes, they're often used for stacking/baying multiple antennas but it's important to get feeder lengths and relative antenna position correct
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[20:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> chris_99: "is there such a thing as a transistor based antenna switchert" google SPDT ic
[20:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> moste are matched to 50 ohm and wotk dc-3Ghz
[20:32] <chris_99> ooh nice - https://www.mouser.co.uk/Semiconductors/Wireless-RF-Integrated-Circuits/RF-Switch-ICs/_/N-azi50?P=1yzxn0x just looking on there for spdt ic
[20:32] <chris_99> cheers
[20:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> :)
[20:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KN4IUD-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KN4IUD-11
[20:36] <Viproz> chris_99, from what I read impedance matching isn't critical for reception, something that's not too bad is going to have minimal effect on the received power
[20:37] <chris_99> ooh cool. i quite like the idea of an rf switch you could control with an MCU via USB
[20:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> gooing outside to ad a couple of radials to the groundstake to see if it makes any difference https://imgur.com/a/jQjP07C
[20:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> its a 30m unterminated "mini" beverage
[20:40] <chris_99> cool had to google that type of antenna, what freq. is that for receving then
[20:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> wideband, works best 20m aln lower
[20:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> *and
[20:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> some good info https://www.qsl.net/zl1rs/bev.html
[20:43] <chris_99> thanks
[20:47] <dbrooke> seems topical - https://twitter.com/jennyb61/status/1061194252951212032
[20:48] <SA6BSS-Mike> ... cool name, guess the favorite beverage is Baileys
[20:49] <dbrooke> 8-)
[20:49] <dbrooke> she does like cream
[20:52] <SA6BSS-Mike> lets not go there :) hmm, where did I put that cable...
[20:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> if I continue looking arround in the garden shedd the neighbouts gonna think theres a burgler loose or something
[21:04] <SA6BSS-Mike> found a 5m cable and fitted it to the ground stake, no obvius difference, will ad a couple of more tomorrow
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[00:00] --- Mon Jan 7 2019