highaltitude.log.20190102

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[03:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5LJG-9_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5LJG-9_chase
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[14:29] <ogmaster> Hello guys, I was looking at the HAB android app tutorial and I have a question
[14:30] <ogmaster> can I not use a headphone jack splitter instead of that makeshift cable?
[14:31] <ogmaster> link to the page https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:hab_modem#decoding_data if you dont know what i mean
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[14:50] <PE2BZ> You mean ¨cut a headphone cable¨ and connect the other side to the radio with the resistors ?
[14:54] <PE2BZ> That should work also
[15:16] <ogmaster> I was referring to this: https://www.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_1040390.html?wid=1433363&currency=GBP&vip=15545346&gclid=Cj0KCQiA37HhBRC8ARIsAPWoO0ydLlIse3xagOoRH2hlkdS4LQk9g-MQs7njpLbgoqDnCYTYlXvC6vkaAhPdEALw_wcB
[15:17] <ogmaster> I dont see why I would need to connect to my radio with resistors if i can split the audio from the mic using that adapter shown above
[15:18] <ogmaster> radio comes with 3.5mm jack in it too so wouldnt it be a simple aux cable between both devices?
[15:18] <ogmaster> works that way for me when using dl-fldigi on windows
[15:19] <ogmaster> I am clearly misunderstanding something somwhere :/
[15:21] <craag> "The resistors form a potential divider as the radio output is typically designed to drive headphones, and so the resistors reduce the amplitude to something expected by a mic input."
[15:22] <chris_99> out of interest, with mic inputs, does the mic input also supply voltage, unlike line in?
[15:23] <craag> laptop inputs are most-often designed to cope with line-level audio, when that article was written - most phones weren't.
[15:23] <craag> no, most device microphone inputs will not supply voltage.
[15:23] <chris_99> ah
[15:26] <craag> nearly all microphones nowadays are dynamic, where the diaphragm vibrates a coil over a microphone, and so produces a voltage by itself.
[15:26] <craag> *over a magnet
[15:29] <chris_99> i recently bought a mini electret mic, they did say the mic port should power it i think, but maybe that's with fancy soundcards heh
[15:32] <craag> Huh, I didn't think it was a thing any more, but a little googling tells I'm probably wrong.
[15:32] <chris_99> sorry you mean you didn't think electrets where a thing or..?
[15:33] <russss> huh weird, I didn't know that either.
[15:33] <craag> I thought most pc microphones were dynamic now, turns out I'm wrong! They need about 3V.
[15:34] <chris_99> oh
[15:34] <chris_99> thats exactly what this electret
[15:34] <chris_99> needs
[15:34] <chris_99> i think
[15:34] <craag> yep
[15:34] <chris_99> annoyingly i'm having a hard time finding a soundcard for it though
[15:34] <chris_99> as i'm trying to record ultrasound
[15:34] <chris_99> so need one without filters
[15:34] <craag> makes sense why you can pick them up so cheap :P
[15:34] <craag> ah..
[15:35] <chris_99> i might end up using an adc board
[15:35] <chris_99> instead
[15:35] <russss> I'd have thought if you got a 96kHz sound card then it wouldn't be filtered any lower than 48kHz.
[15:36] <russss> I could, of course, be wrong.
[15:36] <chris_99> i was planning on trying to record to 96 or so kHz alas
[15:36] <russss> ah right yes
[15:37] <russss> at that point even "audiophiles" can't hear it ;)
[15:37] <chris_99> haha
[15:37] <chris_99> been eyeing these someone told me about - https://wiki.analog.com/resources/eval/user-guides/circuits-from-the-lab/pulsar-adc-pmods
[15:37] <chris_99> which look nice, but they need 'odd' voltage
[15:37] <chris_99> so i need either a nicer bench psu
[15:38] <chris_99> or get some smps's and linear regulators i think
[15:41] <russss> or you could upconvert the audio signal and use an SDR ;)
[15:41] <chris_99> heh, i do have an sdr too
[15:42] <chris_99> that's an interesting idea
[15:42] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> thats a coll gps you linked to last evening, cm precision but wow was it power hungry!!
[15:42] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> not ideal for a hab :)
[15:42] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> *cool
[15:43] <chris_99> oh yeah i'm really curious about what res you get, without terestial correction
[15:43] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> lot of tbd in the datasheet
[15:43] <chris_99> ah
[15:44] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> not quite ready yet I suppose
[15:44] <chris_99> mm, i saw a board that comes out with it in jan sometime
[15:45] <chris_99> https://www.ardusimple.com/product/simplertk2b/#tab-description
[15:45] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> I guess they cant make all the data avlible as the whole system(s) of sat int launched yet
[15:45] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> *is not
[15:45] <chris_99> ahh, i didn't realise that
[15:45] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> if anyone knows but
[15:46] <russss> galileo is already working
[15:46] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> yeah, but how many sat is up, is it full set?
[15:46] <russss> multiband RTK is interesting. You can presumably compensate out some atmospheric effects, which makes survey-grade measurements much less annoying
[15:47] <chris_99> by using many sat constellations, does that also help cancel out atmospheric effects pretty well
[15:47] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> found a nice app that decodes all the gps system ofc you must have the right gps ship in your pgone but I
[15:47] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> could see all off them system show up in the phone
[15:47] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> p20
[15:47] <russss> SA6BSS-Mike|2: 18 sats operational currently, I think that gives you 4 or 5 visible on average.
[15:47] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> ok
[15:48] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> gps test, lets see if I can find it
[15:48] <russss> most modern smartphones will use them
[15:48] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.android.gpstest
[15:49] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> I guess
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[15:54] <russss> oh, actually the datasheet on that ublox module kind of quietly implies that centimetre precision is only possible with RTCM
[15:54] <russss> so the pesky atmosphere is still an issue
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[15:56] <russss> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/GEybPYKJ/image.png
[15:58] <chris_99> hmm, how come it's fixed at 1.5m for horz. even with all constellations?
[15:58] <russss> that's a bit weird isn't it
[15:58] <chris_99> yeah
[15:58] <russss> I mean 1.5m is pretty decent, but I think they might be under-selling it a bit there.
[15:59] <chris_99> id have thought the accuracy would increase at least somewhat when you add more
[16:02] <chris_99> check this - http://etn.fi/images/a/18/4/u-blox-F9---High-precision-GNSS-for-mass-market-2.pdf
[16:02] <chris_99> p9
[16:03] <chris_99> SBAS seems to be a satalite correction system? not sure what the rest are
[16:03] <russss> yeah you enter into acronym soup there quite rapidly
[16:04] <russss> SBAS (which is also known as WAAS if you're talking about GPS) is the existing correction system, where the GNSS satellites themselves broadcast some atmospheric correction data. Everything uses this these days, it's what gives you <20m position fixes
[16:06] <russss> but the new hotness is SSR which will hopefully give everyone RTK-level precision
[16:06] <russss> that is not live yet
[16:06] <chris_99> ah gotcha, i was reading https://www.trimble.com/OEM_ReceiverHelp/V4.44/en/PositionModes_SBAS.html so that says it takes information from ground and rebroadcasts from the satellite itself?
[16:07] <chris_99> does SSR also broadcast from the satelite?
[16:07] <russss> there are plans for that to happen yes, but from geosynchronous satellites I believe
[16:07] <russss> SSR will require more bandwidth as it's a lot more data
[16:07] <chris_99> ahhh
[16:08] <chris_99> could the gps sats not broadcast that? rather than geosynchronous ones? or do they not have much bandwidth
[16:08] <russss> GPS is pretty low bandwidth, the SNR is quite tight
[16:08] <chris_99> ah gotcha
[16:09] <russss> you can get this kind of data already over the internet, but you generally have to pay for it - that's what survey GPS systems use.
[16:11] <chris_99> oh neat, so you don't need any fancy RF tower you position yourself then, just download data for the day or whatnot?
[16:12] <craag> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-and-government/products/os-net/
[16:12] <russss> if you can deal with post-processing the data, in the UK you can download historical atmospheric correction data for free from OS: https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/os-net-rinex-data/
[16:13] <russss> snap
[16:13] <craag> ;)
[16:13] <chris_99> ooh interesting, thanks
[16:13] <russss> you need a GPS receiver which outputs carrier phase data - which most don't - although there are a few which do and aren't too expensive. Some phones also apparently support that.
[16:13] <chris_99> ahh
[16:14] <chris_99> i wonder if any of the SDR GPS programs would be useful then for that?
[16:14] <chris_99> (i've never used one)
[16:14] <russss> if you want that data processed in realtime then you have to subscribe to a commercial service, which is expensive because it's mostly focused at surveyors
[16:15] <russss> one other option is to set up your own base station, wait for it to get a reasonable fix, and then have that base station transmit its correction data to your roving GPS
[16:16] <russss> tbh the SDR stuff is mostly a curiosity, I don't think it really adds anything.
[16:16] <chris_99> would it not be useful to get the phase data though?
[16:16] <russss> yeah but you can literally get that out of a £40 GPS module for way less hassle than an SDR ;)
[16:16] <chris_99> oh heh
[16:16] <chris_99> what module gives that out of interest
[16:18] <craag> some of the old ubloxes used to
[16:18] <craag> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UbloxRAW
[16:18] <russss> I think the expensive ubloxes do
[16:18] <craag> ah those yes
[16:18] <craag> the LEA-Ts and such
[16:19] <russss> the format is called RTCM, if I don't have my acronyms wrong
[16:19] <russss> this one does it https://uk.farnell.com/nvs-technologies/nv08c-csm/mod-gps-glonass-galileo-m2m/dp/1902504
[16:20] <russss> I have one but I got bored making the breakout for it.
[16:21] <chris_99> cool thanks ,just reading https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/what-is-gps-rtk/all which sounds like with rtcm you can get around 25cm or so
[16:21] <chris_99> precision
[16:22] <chris_99> it looks like the data is ~1 hour out, if i'm reading right on the ftp server
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[16:26] <craag> chris_99: yep, you pay them for access to it realtime ;)
[16:27] <chris_99> heh, i wonder if you can 'predict' future correction data, based on previous ones somehow (i assume not?)
[16:27] <craag> The previous ones may provide you some correction, but of course no guarantee that the atmospherics haven't totally switched around since then.
[16:28] <craag> I don't know how variable it is over time
[16:28] <craag> I'm guessing the hour period is specifically chosen to make it not very useful ;)
[16:28] <chris_99> yeah heh
[16:30] <chris_99> i guess that data would be useful if you're surveying stuff though
[16:57] <chris_99> russss: out of interest, i was looking at mixers to upconvert audio, but how come say the ones on - https://ww2.minicircuits.com/WebStore/Mixers.html they don't seem to have DC input on the RF/LO ports? whereas some seem to have DC - X MHz IF output? (unless im missing something)
[17:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6STS-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6STS-11
[17:06] <russss> depending on the mixer architecture I think generally you want to have AC coupling to prevent clipping if there's a DC bias. Who knows what goes on inside of those things though.
[17:10] <russss> probably overkill for that frequency range tbh, maybe you can just make a mixer with a mosfet.
[17:12] <chris_99> cool, i didn't know you could make them that simply
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[17:47] <russss> although now I've lost half an hour looking through the mini circuits website
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[17:48] <chris_99> heh, sorry
[17:51] <russss> my new year's resolution is to finally get some radio stuff installed on my roof
[17:52] <chris_99> nice :) , what kind of antennas are you thinking
[17:53] <russss> I've got a broadband discone up there already although I fear it may have fallen down
[17:53] <russss> and one of those little mini-whip HF things
[17:53] <russss> also thinking about some sat stuff
[17:54] <chris_99> neat, what kind of sats would you receive? like maybe weather sats?
[17:54] <bertrik> at our local hackerspace, we had some fun receiving telemetry from cube sats
[17:56] <russss> I think I would like to give Es'Hail 2 a try
[17:57] <russss> the main thing which makes it more difficult is that I can't really run any coax down from my roof so the setup needs remotely operating over ethernet
[17:59] <chris_99> what kind of reciever will you use?
[18:00] <russss> I have some various SDRs and stuff. I need a fairly large cabinet, it seems.
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[18:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[19:05] <nigle> Working Es'Hail 2 looks to be rather challenging, I found an LNB/downconverter reference design that can probably be tweaked to handle the downlink but the IC that it is based on is on long leadtimes and minimum order quantity of 6,000 :(
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[19:18] <craag> nigle: The octagon PLL LNBs work
[19:18] <craag> join #es'hail-2 and ask for info
[19:19] <russss> ah there's an IRC channel
[19:20] <russss> yeah I already ordered one of those LNBs
[19:21] <craag> I spent xmas eve bending a cheap 1.3m dish into something parabola-like
[19:21] <craag> gained 4dB on the engineering beacon by doing so :)
[19:21] <russss> lol
[19:22] <russss> I'm also quite close to sorting out a GPSDO as well
[19:23] <nigle> That was something I was going to suggest the LHS radio club invested in :)
[19:24] <craag> nice, I'm starting with bare PLL, have got an eye on some 25M smd ocxos that I might try out though.
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[19:25] <russss> nigle: well we have that Nokia thing which exploded
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[19:25] <russss> I was like 80% of the way to getting that working
[19:26] <russss> but you can get a GPS thing with 10MHz out for £50 from China now
[19:26] <nigle> I am curious as to why a satellite dish wasn't the right shape in the first place! Nobody was bending them when I was involved in the satellite TV industry back in the days where it was normal to use a 1m or bigger dish.
[19:27] <russss> and I've been considering making a distribution board with one of the silabs clock chips
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[19:27] <craag> very flimsy (can't adjust it without flexing the reflector)
[19:28] <craag> and was bought in a bulk buy from a clearance sale, all of them seem to be bent, so someone probably stood on the stack :P
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[19:34] <craag> nigle: I've got the octagon 'quad green' OQSLG LNB
[19:35] <craag> It's got a 25MHz crystal reference which is easier to replace than some of the other 27MHz ones
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[19:36] <craag> I got the 4-port so I can feed a reference up another coax (in addition to V & H outputs) without messing with diplexers and whatnot.
[19:37] <craag> LO of 9.75GHz, puts the NB transponder out on ~740MHz
[19:39] <nigle> It would be interesting to see if it can be hacked to change the output frequency.
[19:39] <craag> Don't believe all the marketing, NF is actually about 1.5-2dB
[19:39] <russss> there's quite a bit of teardown info around
[19:39] <craag> yeah
[19:40] <russss> the frequency can be changed a bit by altering the bias tee voltage/frequency (standard LNB feature)
[19:40] <russss> ah that's input though
[19:40] <craag> well 22KHz tone to change it to 10.6G
[19:41] <nigle> Hadn't realised that tone was still a thing!
[19:41] <russss> I think the output frequency can be changed a bit by changing the clock but probably not too much
[19:42] <russss> it's just a specific chip which does all the LNB-stuff
[19:42] <russss> can't argue with the price though
[19:42] <nigle> It looks like the typical chips in these have a fixed divider in the PLL, so not easy to change the LO frequencies.
[19:43] <russss> I think you can also get C-band LNBs
[19:44] <nigle> The americans used that band instead of Ku, they probably still do.
[19:44] <russss> I think they use both now, to confuse things. but you also have to contend with polarisation
[19:45] <nigle> Yep, typically circular for Ku band but Eshail-2 needs H/V
[19:48] Nick change: BitEvil -> SpeedEvil
[19:48] <nigle> But circular for uplink, I will focus on downlink for now!
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[21:06] <Hoshen_4Z7HKA> Hi, maybe someone here knows a bit about the radiosonde_auto_rx?
[21:12] <daveake> ping Darkside ^^
[21:18] <dbrooke> Hoshen_4Z7HKA: whilst Darkside is the main developer there are several users in here so if you have a question just ask and maybe someone can help
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[21:33] <Darkside> Hoshen_4Z7HKA: i replied to your email
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[22:08] <Heppie> Hi all. Just bought a couple lots modules to play with including tracking. Does anyone bother to use directional antennas for hab tracking or do the standard rubber duck antennas work fine?
[22:08] <Heppie> Lora*
[22:24] <Viproz> Heppie, Depends on how far away you want to hear them and how noisy your capture system is
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[00:00] --- Thu Jan 3 2019