highaltitude.log.20181227

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[02:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RIA-20 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RIA-20
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[09:16] <Viproz> Darkside, here ?
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[10:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-6 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-6
[11:02] <Darkside> Viproz: i am now
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[11:05] <Viproz> sent you a PM with the email exchange with the dev of dxlARPS, the ID they use is just a mashup meant to be unique
[11:06] <Viproz> also he talks about FEC (forward error correction) on the other RS, you know how it works on the others ?
[11:06] <Darkside> nup
[11:07] <Darkside> well
[11:07] <Darkside> i thought the RS repo was doing some FEC work
[11:07] <Darkside> as in, theres some reed-solomon decoding going on
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[11:10] <Viproz> hum okay I'll take a look, I guess I am doing some error correction with the fact that the rawbits must be 01 or 10
[11:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GAS-10 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GAS-10
[11:10] <Darkside> mmk
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[11:12] <Viproz> mmh maybe I'll do MEXXXXXXX for ptu sondes and something more meaningfull for gtops which are not decoded by dxlARPS
[11:12] <Viproz> wouldn't make much sens tho
[11:15] <Darkside> hmm, i think rs41dm_dft might only be using the RS stuff for checking for errors, not correcting them
[11:15] <Darkside> oh wait
[11:15] <Darkside> maybe not
[11:18] <Darkside> https://github.com/projecthorus/radiosonde_auto_rx/blob/master/demod/rs41dm_dft.c#L938
[11:18] <Darkside> note thats only with --ecc2, which we are not currently using
[11:18] <Darkside> i think with just the --ecc option, it just checks for errors
[11:19] <Darkside> what i really should do is get a test corpus of signals together, with known SNRs
[11:20] <Darkside> then we can run the decoders over that corpus of data and work out what performs best
[11:22] <Darkside> his comment about users not updating is an important one :-)
[11:22] <Darkside> its a problem i face around here
[11:41] <Viproz> Yeah and from what I gathered they buy premade sd cards so even if they know that they should upload they probably have no clue how to do it and they might now know ssh or cmd line
[11:42] <Viproz> I did some benchmark for the M10 and my conclusion was basically what the hell let's just do both methods we're waay above realtime anyway :D
[11:42] <Viproz> (it's what the -b arg does to my program)
[11:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LZ1SVI_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LZ1SVI_chase
[11:50] <Darkside> what got me about the KXY tracker stuff was you have to use their disk image
[11:51] <Darkside> and one of the caveats is that they can log in at any time to do stuff
[11:51] <Darkside> no way did i want that
[11:56] Action: dbrooke boggles
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[12:03] <Darkside> dbrooke: oh ello
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[12:06] <dbrooke> hello 8-)
[12:10] <Darkside> "This Raspberry image contains tools for remote control and
[12:10] <Darkside> monitoring its resources! If you do not agree to monitor your
[12:10] <Darkside> device and make remote modifications - it is not recommended to
[12:10] <Darkside> generate and run this image.
[12:10] <Darkside> Access to the device statistics page is only available to the owner of
[12:10] <Darkside> this device and the site administrator."
[12:10] <Darkside> yeah no thanks
[12:10] <cm13g09> Darkside: wat image is that?!
[12:11] <Darkside> this is the SQ6KXY radiosonde tracker rpi image
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[12:12] <cm13g09> oooft
[12:13] <Darkside> https://www.dropbox.com/s/w1t7rf4tco1g0t5/kxyTrack_manual_en.pdf?dl=0
[12:13] <Darkside> right at the end of that document
[12:16] <Darkside> i get wanting to make it easier to update and admin
[12:16] <Darkside> but i dont like the remote access thing
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[12:19] <dbrooke> if there was no viable alternative to something like that it would only get on an isolated/heavily firewalled subnetwork, luckily I can just run something else ...
[12:20] <Darkside> yes...
[12:26] <PE2BZ> Viproz good afternoon would you know if / who dropped M10 like sondes from the sky about 1 week ago ?
[12:28] <Viproz> PE2BZ, hey, where at ?
[12:30] <cm13g09> Darkside: yeah
[12:30] <cm13g09> that's not nice
[12:31] <PE2BZ> The 19th of december https://www.dropbox.com/s/z09qptyzgyo5pv5/2018-12-19-drop_m10.JPG?dl=0
[12:31] <PE2BZ> 401.400 MHz
[12:32] <PE2BZ> Did not decode with SM and a bit with RS M10 dekoder, around 49 N 5 E and around 8900 m altitude.
[12:32] <PE2BZ> Sorry I did not save IQ data, there where 3 on air that day.
[12:35] <Viproz> hum 401.4 is weird, the position looks like one from Paris but they launch on 401 or 402 as backup
[12:36] <PE2BZ> Normally all M10´s I receive follow the radiosonde pattern, slowly up, burst, then down. These signals appeared on my SDR (westcoast of the Netherlands, 27 m ASL) in full strength. One day later the G-LUxe dropped an RD94 above the northsea
[12:37] <Viproz> PE2BZ, "lat": 49.11743, "lon": 4.61256 this is the last position of the one sent by Paris on the 19th on 401 MHz, they might have sent more than one
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[12:50] <PE2BZ> If you look here http://www.pe2bz.nl/hamradio/skymonitor/rtlTest_power.png at 401 Mhz you see one of my ¨normal¨ M10 sonde signals
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[13:03] <Viproz> PE2BZ, oh I hadn't noticed the timescale on the left, there would have been two different RS then, am I reading your waterfall right ?
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[13:04] <PE2BZ> Two different M10´s on the waterfall indeed and later that same day one rount 17:00 LT if I recall the time rights
[13:05] <PE2BZ> So on the dropbox link there is also one normal M10 at 401 MHz from around 13:00 LT
[13:08] <Viproz> it's really weird, did you hear them ? Do we know they are M10s or can they be something else ?
[13:09] <Viproz> I didn't have autorx running and working back then, that's too bad cause I was in Troyes
[13:11] <Viproz> and they must have been sent from the west, the wind was blowing east
[13:12] <PE2BZ> I did play them back from my radiosonde recorder. Tried to decode with both SM and the M10 decoder from Zilog. SM did fail completely (Wide FM in SDR Console, 24 - 38 kHz tried) and the M10 decoder from Zilog run from cygwin decoded some packets with the lat, long, altitude I mentioned above.
[13:12] <PE2BZ> But I forgot to save one as IQ data
[13:18] <Viproz> RS is less than ideal for M10s, it's not optimized
[13:18] <Viproz> was it a ptu or a gtop then ?
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[13:31] <PE2BZ> What´s the difference ? /me is clueless ;-)
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[13:33] <Viproz> they use a different type of gps apparently and they send different packets, if you ran m10ptu.c then it's ptu, if m10gtop.c then it's a gtop ^^
[13:34] <PE2BZ> I ran m10.exe and got PTU data I think. I also tried M12 but that did decode with most strange output.
[13:34] <PE2BZ> I am searching my data for any audio file but I guess they´re not there ....
[13:41] <Viproz> They are probably going to send others, I'll keep an eye out
[13:43] <Viproz> what are you using for your day to day decoding ?
[13:46] <PE2BZ> Sondemonitor, and for RD-94 dropsondes the dropsonde decoder from Zilog, and RS41 decoder for ¨fun¨
[13:46] <PE2BZ> Because it reports the max altitude so nicely ;-)
[13:49] <Viproz> everything manually then or do you have something with SM ?
[13:51] <PE2BZ> All manually when needed, and if I see nothing on the waterfall which looks special I do ¨shift end¨, ¨shift delete¨ and enter and all 3 TB of data is gone. Every once in a while I do ¨shift Enter¨ which hangs windows tryint to open hundreds of files of 2 Gig each :-(
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[14:00] <Nilkki> ?
[14:01] <Viproz> haha yeah I tried to open one IQ file by mistake once and it already took a while to open so I can imagine for hundreds of files :D
[14:02] <PE2BZ> And being 2 km away from my home....
[14:03] <PE2BZ> Nilkki whats on your mind ?
[14:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ILPICO_01 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ILPICO_01
[14:05] <Nilkki> Nothing, just came here to see what kind of chat You writing here
[14:05] <PE2BZ> Hi, it´s about the receiving / decoding of radiosondes at the moment
[14:10] <Nilkki> Yep, Are you monitoring amateur balloons or weather (403MHz) balloons? I have station which monitoring weather balloons
[14:11] <PE2BZ> I personally do both. We (PB0AHX and myself) even launch amateur balloons every now and then
[14:11] <Darkside> ^ same here
[14:16] <PE2BZ> Darkside I like the auto_rx webpage :-) Had not been running it for some time, but it looks really nice !
[14:18] <Darkside> oh, teh web gui?
[14:18] <Darkside> thanks
[14:19] <PE2BZ> Indeed !
[14:20] <PE2BZ> Had to edit the frequency range to EU standards ;-)
[14:21] <Nilkki> I like it also. I have raspberry pi where is auto_rx and I will use it as mobile station when I hunting sondes. That web page helps locate sonde from forest
[14:22] <Darkside> Nilkki: you should have a look at chasemapper
[14:22] <Nilkki> Where I can found it?
[14:23] <Darkside> https://github.com/projecthorus/chasemapper
[14:26] <Viproz> Did someone do a script to predict the landing position of a RS only with the data provided by the RS ? I had some good success using this approach on MATLAB
[14:26] <Viproz> the big assumption is that the wind where it lands is the same as where it went up
[14:29] <Darkside> i could probably inject that data into the models the predictor is using
[14:29] <Darkside> but you still need the model data for altitudes above where the balloon currently is
[14:30] <Darkside> it may help give a better descent prediction after burst, if you make the assumption as you say
[14:30] <Viproz> yeah my script would always assume that the balloon was going down and I matched he descent trajectory to one that we captured before
[14:31] <Darkside> i've found that using the gFS models works out pretty well
[14:31] <Viproz> I'll give it a shot
[14:31] <Darkside> plus its not like you're just running the prediction once
[14:32] <Darkside> you keep on recalculating based on where the balloon is, and its current ascent/descent rate
[14:32] <Darkside> so it fulfils the task of getting you into the right area
[14:32] <Darkside> the biggest error in the predictions i see is just the error in estimated burst altitude
[14:32] <Darkside> which is not something you can do much about - thats just variation in the balloons
[14:32] <Viproz> actually given how it went in the past few days I think I can predict pretty accurately where the next RS is going to land : in the water...
[14:35] <Viproz> Do all of the RS have similar parachute surface area vs weight ?
[14:35] <Viproz> the same descent trajectory then ?
[14:40] <Darkside> nope
[14:40] <Darkside> different stations will use different configurations of parachute, etc
[14:40] <Darkside> also depends on how much balloon is remaining
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[14:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3B-24 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3B-24
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[15:42] <Darkside> Viproz: so are you just going to leave the detection stuff alone, and just use the larger quantization valur?
[15:43] <Darkside> no wait, you needed to increase the bandwidth to be able to detect the M10s
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[15:44] <Darkside> hmm
[15:44] <Darkside> perhaps we add an M10 enable flag to start with which does these switches
[15:44] <Darkside> and then we get a few station sto run with that for a few weeks and check all is OK
[15:47] <Viproz> I'll try again at the previous value (was it 18k or 12k ?) to see if we can get away without changing it
[15:50] <Darkside> ok
[15:50] <Darkside> just putting some suggestions into the issue
[15:51] <Darkside> done...
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[16:54] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping?
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[19:01] <PE2BZ> Darkside is sleeping now ?
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[19:03] <Viproz> maybe I can help you ?
[19:05] <PE2BZ> Shure !
[19:05] <PE2BZ> 19:04:35,878 WARNING:Scanner #0 - RTLSDR produced no output... resetting and retrying.
[19:05] <PE2BZ> 2018-12-27 19:04:36,389 INFO:RTLSDR - Attempting to reset: Bus: 1 Device: 4
[19:05] <PE2BZ> I did install Kalibrate to find the right PPM setting after which I get this message ?
[19:06] <Viproz> you instaled something like lib-rtlsdrblabla in the process ?
[19:06] <PE2BZ> shure
[19:06] <PE2BZ> should I just delete and restart with your fork ;-)
[19:07] <Viproz> on the repo there is an older version of rtl_sdr which does not support all of the options we use, you probably need to reinstall it from source and remove the wrong packets
[19:07] <Viproz> no need :)
[19:07] <Viproz> https://github.com/projecthorus/radiosonde_auto_rx/wiki#32-rtl-sdr-from-source
[19:08] <Viproz> the note on the bottom, be sure you run this 'sudo apt-get remove rtl-sdr librtlsdr0 librtlsdr-dev' before doing sudo make install
[19:08] <jarod> it's: sure
[19:08] <jarod> :O
[19:09] <jarod> Shure = microphone brand :)
[19:10] <PE2BZ> yeah sure ;-)
[19:10] <PE2BZ> You´re right.... And I am aged ;-)
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[19:20] <PE2BZ> Viproz it works again but not near the rx quality from this afternoon.... six peaks each about 200 kHz wide ?
[19:20] <PE2BZ> shift delete....
[19:22] <Viproz> that's wierd, you did build it from source and make install it before right ?
[19:22] <PE2BZ> Yes. Now trying if a reboot solved the problem
[19:23] <PE2BZ> https://imgur.com/a/lJ1woUj
[19:24] <Viproz> maybe it's just that there is no signal right now and I believe it uses automatic gain so the noise would be high
[19:24] <Viproz> I'll be back in a bit
[19:25] <PE2BZ> https://imgur.com/a/JeIkVzZ
[19:25] <PE2BZ> Improved after reboot
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[20:13] <Viproz> It's weird
[20:15] <Viproz> Also on this we can see that we use a crop % of 0, Darkside maybe we should consider using -c 40% or something similar to not have the dips on the side, don't know if it can hide a signal tho
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[20:46] <chris_99> has anyone heard of the 'golden gnat' gyro out of interest?
[20:49] <Ian_> http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=902 Bit of history there then :)
[20:49] <chris_99> cheers, i was just looking at this one - http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=428
[20:52] <chris_99> one thing i don't understand, i know that gyro is mechanical, the plane/missile would presumably also use an accelerometer too wouldn't it?
[20:54] <Ian_> Not sure that a lot of people would hang around long enough at the sharp end to find out :) You can bet that the legacy support that the USAF was getting for them didn't come cheap.
[20:55] <chris_99> heh. i can't believe how cheap those were sold for, $16 apparently
[20:58] <Ian_> Yes, I would hate to think of the original cost or that of the legacy support. Probably replaced by a chip or two with change over from the cost of a packet of cigarettes.
[20:58] <Ian_> AFK sked having.
[20:58] <Hiena> Well, it's basically a motor and a spinning weight inside two coil.
[20:58] <Ian_> Don't forget the string . . .
[20:58] <chris_99> haha
[20:59] <chris_99> oh, doesn't it spin in >1 axis though, or..?
[20:59] <chris_99> or do you have 1 per axis
[21:01] <edmoore> 1 per axis
[21:01] <chris_99> ahh
[21:01] <chris_99> cheers
[21:01] <Hiena> It's a single axis gyro. One motor spinning the disk inside a variable coupling transformer. The phase of the input and the output sinewave depends on the rotor position.
[21:02] <edmoore> my colleague james installed 3 in a model rocket avionics package
[21:02] <chris_99> wow
[21:02] <chris_99> nice :)
[21:02] <chris_99> did it work well
[21:02] <edmoore> needed a bit of driving and feedback electronica, but nothing too difficult
[21:02] <edmoore> they're 400Hz ac iirc
[21:02] <edmoore> it never flew! too easy to use mems now
[21:02] <chris_99> ah
[21:03] <chris_99> what did they use for the accelerometer?
[21:05] <edmoore> don't know
[21:05] <edmoore> would depend on the missile. maybe nothing at all
[21:05] <edmoore> not many of those missiles were dead-reckoning, i don't think
[21:06] <edmoore> they usually had ome other way of seeking a target
[21:06] <edmoore> heat, radar, whatever
[21:07] <chris_99> https://hackaday.com/2018/12/27/top-secret-teardown-reveals-soviet-missile-secrets/ was looking at that earlier, which is apparently a heat type sensor i think
[21:09] <edmoore> yes, the design of those is very clever
[21:09] <edmoore> you can do an awful lot with effectively a single pixel
[21:10] <chris_99> yeah i thought that was really neat, how its just one pixel
[21:10] <Hiena> The classic accelerometers involves springs and weights in a tube. The weight sometimes act as a core for a coil or a capacitor plate.
[21:12] <chris_99> cool, so the distortion of the weight, is sensed by capacitance/magnetism?
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[21:22] <Hiena> Movement of the weight. As the weight moves inside the tube the capacitance or the inductance change. The most simple is a plastic tube with a copper outer jacket, and a copper weight inserted to a half way. (The weight overlaps only the 50% of the total length of the tube.) The outer jacket and the weight forms a capacitor. When the acceleration change, the weight shifts, and the capacitance change too. Sometimes the whole setup
[21:23] <Hiena> dipped in some oil for mechanical damping.
[21:25] <chris_99> interesting cheers, i wonder how hard it would be to make a diy version
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[21:30] <edmoore> http://www.infiltec.com/seismo/
[21:30] <edmoore> that's a seismometer, but a seismometer is just an accelerometer
[21:31] <edmoore> but a good nerdy brain-dump of DIY stuff
[21:32] <chris_99> neat, will have a look through :)
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[22:17] <Ian_> Sounds a little like a capacitive version of a LVDT (Linear Variable Differential Transformer)
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 28 2018