highaltitude.log.20181205

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[07:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03tracker1 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tracker1
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[09:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS18 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS18
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[11:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[18:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WA3ITR-7 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WA3ITR-7
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[19:06] <jbras> Hello.
[19:08] <jbras> I am interested in the possibility of using high altitude ballons to watch for incipient fires in California.
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[19:09] <Bozzy> !flights
[19:09] <SpacenearUS> 03Bozzy: There are no flights currently :(
[19:10] <jbras> I am new to this subject. How long can they stay aloft?
[19:11] <edmoore> the latex weather balloons used commonly tend to stay aloft for only a few hours
[19:11] <edmoore> maybe 2-3 hours ascent
[19:12] <edmoore> amateurs have built small 'superpressure' balloons that can stay aloft for weeks, but only really with a payload of the order of 10g
[19:13] <jbras> So a large number of balloons would have to be used in order to watch day and night throughout the months of October and November.
[19:13] <edmoore> i regularly see talk now of people using small sats for wildfire spotting - probably a better option because they can fairly reliably and regularly scan over the same spot on earth, yeah round
[19:14] <edmoore> whereas balloons would not stay up long and almost all get blown north-east or just east into nevada
[19:15] <edmoore> unless you could launch them out at sea so that they're fully aloft by the time they get over wherever it happens to be - los padres, say
[19:16] <jbras> Yes, that has been considered, but a geostationary balloon satellite(s) would be a lot less expensive than a constellation of cubesats, I think.
[19:17] <edmoore> yes, but you must first invent the (as yet non-existant) geostationary balloon!
[19:18] <edmoore> you can go to large, more expensive balloons called super-pressure balloons (the ones nasa use that look like pumpkins) that can stay aloft for weeks, but you've still to solve the wind issue
[19:19] <jbras> Ahah! There is talk of them, but with "could be" and "theoretically" sprinkled in.
[19:19] <edmoore> yes
[19:20] <edmoore> so one solution to this fairly fundamental problem is, as you say, just keep chucking them up by the hundred so there is always one in the sky with line of site to whichever area you're interested in. this is very much like the approach Google have taken with their Loon internet platform
[19:21] <edmoore> but that's had several years and google-level funding and is yet to prove itself, albeit that it probably has to be commercial viable in their case
[19:23] <edmoore> given i know many more people who have been involved in successful imaging cubesats than balloons, and many of them being ex-balloon people, i would seriously consider the cubesat option
[19:24] <jbras> Ideally one could rent time on a constellation that had an orbit over the length of California.
[19:24] <edmoore> yes
[19:24] <edmoore> have you looked at someone like Planet?
[19:25] <edmoore> infact they seem to have something related on their site https://www.planet.com/insights/sonoma-napa-fires/
[19:27] <jbras> Yes. They are next on my list after Spire. Can you divulge any names or organizations that I could communicate with?
[19:28] <edmoore> i'm not really up to date on all the imagine constellations now, i'm afraid, it's moving so fast
[19:28] <edmoore> i just know some of the early employees at planet
[19:30] <jbras> The issue will be getting government bodies and aerospace companies talking to each other.
[19:30] <edmoore> _potentially_ another interesting technology is very high altitude winged drones
[19:31] <edmoore> that can just do circles at 50,000ft, flying on solar + battery
[19:31] <SIbot> In real units: 50,000 ft = 15.2 km
[19:31] <edmoore> jbras: that's always the issue. at least these smaller companies like Planet are more approchable than, say, a lockheed
[19:33] <jbras> The drones sounds like a good option. I would like to present workable solutions so the government doesn't have to think about it too much.
[19:35] <jbras> About the drones; how high can they fly before running out of atmosphere?
[19:35] <edmoore> i would say planet then (or similar) you get images of california a few times a day, every day, for $XYZ
[19:35] <edmoore> i believe it's of the order of 50,000ft
[19:35] <SIbot> In real units: 50,000 ft = 15.2 km
[19:35] <edmoore> these are still experimental - e.g. Zephyr in the UK
[19:36] <edmoore> but unless you want an engineering project yourself, sats are infrustructure that's already up there
[19:36] <jbras> Problem is, I need continuous images. A small fire becomes raging in a matter of minutes.
[19:37] <edmoore> hmmm, that probably eliminates sats then
[19:37] <edmoore> have a look at this: https://www.airbus.com/defence/uav/zephyr.html
[19:38] <edmoore> it's really designed to solve your problem - a continuous pseudo-geostrationary sat
[19:39] <jbras> Planet has a constellation of 104 satellites, which would allow maybe 4 satellites over a 450 mile area all the time. The trick would be having them orbit directly over the length of California.
[19:39] <edmoore> they are stuck in the orbits that they're stuck in
[19:42] <edmoore> but i believe they are arranged to get several passes over one spot in fairly short succession, though more than minutes
[19:43] <jbras> Right, but 2 cubesats at any given time would do the job. Need a new fleet of 50 geostationary cubesats orbiting directly over California. Someone has told me that this approach won't work, but failed to explain why. Any thoughts?
[19:43] <edmoore> oh gosh
[19:43] <edmoore> right
[19:43] <edmoore> yes, cubesats are almost all LEO
[19:44] <jbras> LEO is good.
[19:44] <edmoore> yes, but you just said they need to be geostationary
[19:44] <edmoore> that means they have to orbit at 36000km instead of 600km altitude
[19:44] <jbras> Sorry, I meant geocentric.
[19:45] <edmoore> so suddenly your shoebox cubesat with digital-camera style lens needs to become more like a car-sized hubble to get the same resolution
[19:45] <jbras> Geocentric.
[19:46] <edmoore> geocentric orbits are just orbits around the earth
[19:46] <edmoore> which covers basically every satellite ever launched except the odd nasa probe sent to mars or whatever
[19:47] <edmoore> the only way a satellite can orbit 'directly over california' is if it's geosynchronous (or geostationary, which means the same thing)
[19:47] <jbras> Right. a LEO orbit around the earth with a path over the length of California. Am I missing something key?
[19:49] <edmoore> right, so a sat with a broadly south-to-north (or north-to-south) path over a given patch of ground would be called polar orbit
[19:49] <edmoore> i believe, but don't know, because they tend to catch whichever launches they can, that a number of planet's sats are in polar orbit
[19:49] <jbras> Can a satellite not have any direction around the earth, as long as it is around the circumference?
[19:50] <edmoore> yep correct
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[19:51] <edmoore> but given california is broadly long and thin, and aligned north-south, in its case you'd want a polar orbit, most probably, which happens to be a common orbit anyway because it means you eventually see all of earth from your orbit
[19:51] <edmoore> so it's popular with earth-observation sats
[19:52] <jbras> So next is to find out what Planet has. Thanks for the conversation!
[19:52] <edmoore> yes, tell them what you're after and they'll probably tell you what they can do as things stand
[19:53] <jbras> Signing off.
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[20:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP4JLT-14 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP4JLT-14
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[20:21] <Viproz> Hey guys, is there someone from the radiosonde auto rx project here ?
[20:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> ping Darkside
[20:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> heath the creator of that
[20:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> let see whats the time in Australia?
[20:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> 7,34 in Sidney, he probaly be in here shortly
[20:28] <Viproz> okay thanks
[20:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3S26 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3S26
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[20:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03tracker2 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tracker2
[21:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03tracher4 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tracher4
[21:01] <Darkside> Viproz yo
[21:01] <russss> this is an extremely pleasing example of a control system recovering from a failure imo https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1070399755526656000
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[21:06] <Viproz> Darkside, is there a particular reason you'e not supporting M10s or is it just that no one developed it yet ?
[21:10] <Viproz> I have been testing RS lately, it was really bad at decoding M10 gtop so I had a go at improvng it and now it's on par with SondeMonitor so I can do more with it
[21:11] <Darkside> Viproz: ooh interesting
[21:11] <Darkside> Viproz: how good is rs_detect at detecting them?
[21:11] <Darkside> i had noticed a lot of false M10 detections in the past
[21:12] <Darkside> and yes, its more about not having anything to test with - its all RS41s here in australia
[21:15] <Darkside> you're more than welcome to have a go adding support - there's a few places things need to be changed to add support for a new sonde type
[21:16] <Darkside> first thing to do would probably be to enable debug output (-v) and check the M10 sondes are being detected reliably
[21:16] <Viproz> Darkside, I didn't know about RS_detect, I'll check and I guess it's the exact opposite for me, I'm in France and we only have M10s, Paris just switched from using gtop to ptu
[21:17] <Darkside> and from there, modify the M10 decoder to output a line of JSON for each telemetry packet
[21:17] <Darkside> rt to start decoding M10s to the autorx.decode submodule
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[21:17] <Darkside> hrm, lost half that line!
[21:18] <Darkside> Viproz: have a go at running up radiosonde_auto_Rx, and run it in -v mode
[21:18] <Darkside> that should let you see if its detecting the M10s reliably
[21:18] <Darkside> if not, then rs_detect (in RS/scan/) might need tweaking
[21:22] <Viproz> Darkside, rs_detect is also using read_bits_fsk, I had some trouble with the implementation of this function when the audio is offset when there is some signal, I resolved the issue by summing the previous values constantly to have an average at 0
[21:22] <Darkside> yes, i've noticed this too
[21:23] <Darkside> performance can sometiems be improved by using a high-pass filter in the demodulator chain, but not always
[21:23] <Viproz> Did you notices issues like this with other sonde types ? (I have no clue how the others pass the data, seems that everybody is using fsk)
[21:23] <Darkside> and that especially doesnt work with the higher baud rate sondes
[21:23] <Darkside> if you're within ~1 khz it works on
[21:23] <Viproz> What's a high baudrate ? 9600 ?
[21:23] <Darkside> ok*
[21:23] <Darkside> well the RS41s run at 4800
[21:23] <Darkside> i dont know of anything higher than that? what does the M10 do?
[21:24] <Darkside> Viproz: anyway, rs_detect seems to detect sonde transmissions many db below where the otehr decoders will start to decode them
[21:24] <Viproz> They are at 9614 with two raw bits making one
[21:24] <Darkside> so it may still be useful in detecting M10s
[21:25] <Darkside> i think its just correlating the incoming bitstream with a known header, and looking for peaks
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[21:25] <Darkside> but i'd definitely be interested ot know if your mods to the M10 decoder can be used to improve performance in some of the other decoders!
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[21:26] <Viproz> yeah I'm just thinking that the method I used to decode and detect M10 signals might be used to decode the other ones too, you know if the performances of the others are on pair with SondeMonitor ?
[21:26] <Darkside> i havent had a deep look into improving th eperformance of the demodulator side, i've been more focused on all the middleware stuff, moving data about, and displaying it
[21:26] <Darkside> they seem siimlar
[21:27] <Darkside> it would be nice if the demodulators provided some estimate of SNR
[21:27] <Darkside> but im not sure if thats even possible when using FM-demodulated input to them
[21:34] <Viproz> activeSum = (activeSum+(double)v)*(double)((int)(samplePerBit*6.))/(double)((int)(samplePerBit*6.+1.));
[21:34] <Viproz> v = v - activeSum/(double)((int)(samplePerBit*6));
[21:36] <Viproz> That's what I'm using to do the average where v is the value returned by read signed value, I think this is the only part of my code that could apply to the other RS since the rest si based on the fact that for M10s you always have a 0 followed by a 1 or a 1 followed by a 0
[21:36] <Darkside> ok
[21:36] <Darkside> well, it's be good to add support for the M10s to radiosonde_auto_rx
[21:37] <Viproz> Yeah I'll look into it !
[21:37] <Darkside> just writing up some points into an issue on what would need to be done
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[21:44] <Darkside> Viproz: https://github.com/projecthorus/radiosonde_auto_rx/issues/94
[21:45] <Darkside> lots of links to various places in the code where things woul dneed to be changed to add support for a new sonde type
[21:49] <Viproz> Darkside, Okay thanks, I just tested with the audio I had laying around and it is detecting the M10 correctly, it does not detect which of the two type it is tho so I'll probably need to do that in the decode file and adapt behavior
[21:49] <Darkside> is the output significantly different?
[21:50] <Viproz> The sonde seems to be drifting and are usually not exactly on the right frequency you have something to correct that in the code ?
[21:50] <Darkside> urgh nope.
[21:50] <Darkside> thats a difficult one
[21:50] <Darkside> well
[21:50] <Viproz> No the main difference is that with the old ones you only have the day in the week only and not the date
[21:51] <Darkside> not starting on the right frequency isnt too hard to deal with, but drifting is more of a problem, as i have no way of adjusting the receive frequency while in the middle of decoding
[21:51] <Darkside> the RS41s, RS92s, and DFMs dont drift enough for it to be an issue
[21:51] <Viproz> I'll try to calibrate my sdr and recieve it while already hot to see how much it actually drifts
[21:52] <Darkside> in terms of detection, and picking the right frequency to receive on, there may need to be some tweaking of the various peak detection parameters for auto_rx to work well with M10s
[21:53] <Darkside> as at the moment i detect peaks, but i immediately quantise the detected peak frequencies to 10khz
[21:53] <Darkside> as this is what all the RS92/RS41/DFM sondes do
[21:53] <Viproz> What I observed in the past was a drift of around 1-2kHz between the start and the end and a center frequency of 400.977 instead of 401
[21:53] <Darkside> and it reduces the nuber of rs_detect runs requried to detect
[21:54] <Darkside> hmm
[21:54] <Darkside> thats a long way off!
[21:55] <Darkside> that may require some re-thinking of the way auto_rx handles scanning, or possible adding in a different mode to use in areas where primarily M10s or other sondes like it are launched..
[21:55] <Viproz> Some of it might be due to the fact that I didn't correct the ppm on my sdr
[21:55] <Darkside> ah
[21:55] <Darkside> yes i recommend the use of SDRs like the rtl-sdr.com blog V3
[21:55] <Darkside> with TCXOs
[21:56] <Darkside> you really need the stability for the RS41s, and it sounds like the M10s will be similar
[21:58] <Darkside> also their absolute PPM offset is usually <1ppm out of the box, so almost no need to calibrate them
[21:59] <Darkside> anyway, i need to get ready for work, good talking to you, and hopefully we can chat more about M10 support!
[22:00] <Viproz> Yeah for sure, thanks for the support !
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[00:00] --- Thu Dec 6 2018