highaltitude.log.20181203

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[05:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03YO4SJI - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YO4SJI
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[08:19] <Bozzy> !flights
[08:19] <SpacenearUS> 03Bozzy: There are no flights currently :(
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[11:00] <Crashjuh> en Done
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[11:11] <Darkside> VK2GPL: are you involved with the recent launches in VK2?
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[11:12] <Darkside> righto
[11:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[11:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4020340 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4020340
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[14:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BERKOHAB - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BERKOHAB
[14:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC1DHP - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC1DHP
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[16:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AC6MH-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AC6MH-11
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[16:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03tracker3 after 0320 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tracker3
[16:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03tracker1 after 0321 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tracker1
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[21:08] <garc> hello
[21:23] <garc> is anyone here?
[21:25] <bertrik> hi garc I'm mostly just listening/reading on this channel
[21:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KM6GRC-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KM6GRC-11
[21:33] <bertrik> but I do know a little bit about HABs
[21:45] <garc> thank you bertrik
[21:46] <garc> I would like to ask you
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[21:46] <garc> about tracking methods
[21:47] <garc> I have made 3 flights and I lost 1 flight with all the systems (it dropped into the sea and we lost the signal)
[21:47] <garc> so I want to know if I will have a problem
[21:48] <garc> if I use an Aprs tracking device without amateur radio license...
[21:48] <Darkside> uhm yes
[21:48] <Darkside> as thats not legal
[21:49] <Darkside> you need an amateur radio license to be able to transmit on the APRS frequency
[21:50] <garc> yes but you think that they will be interested? I mean why I will have a problem if I use illegal the aprs frequency
[21:50] <garc> ?
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[21:52] <garc> ?
[21:52] <Darkside> you need a callsign to use APRS
[21:52] <Darkside> for one
[21:52] <Darkside> and please dont do illegal things.
[21:53] <Darkside> thats all i have to say on it
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[21:54] <garc> yes but is an unimportant offense...
[21:54] <Darkside> fuck it
[21:54] <Darkside> im out
[21:55] <Darkside> time to go to to work...
[21:55] <garc> so you want to tell me that eveyone here has an amauteur radio license to do habbing?
[21:56] <craag> a lot of us don't use aprs
[21:56] <craag> but a lot of us do have amateur radio licenses anyway
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[21:56] <garc> ok so if I dont use aprs the next safe tracking method which is it?
[21:57] <craag> in the UK, where airborne amateur radio isn't legal, we use RTTY on license-exempt 434MHz
[21:57] <craag> at 10mW power limit
[21:57] <craag> where are you based garc ?
[21:57] <garc> I am from greece
[21:57] <garc> and you can watch my video
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[21:58] <garc> also you can subscribe
[21:58] <garc> here is my video
[21:58] <craag> There's a good explanation of the tracking systems we use here: http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[21:59] <garc> in 2 hours I will upload and a new video if you like
[21:59] <craag> often referred to as the 'UKHAS' tracking system
[21:59] <garc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ublv30qYfZA&lc=
[21:59] <craag> I think I remember a team in greece using it a couple of years ago
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[22:02] <garc> which team in greece used this method?
[22:02] <garc> and you are talking about rtty method?
[22:03] <craag> Sorry I can't remember any details. You might find mention of it on the mailing list
[22:03] <craag> and yes the rtty method.
[22:03] <craag> It's proved very reliable for us
[22:04] <garc> and how it's working? I mean they aren't repeaters...
[22:04] <garc> how you take the coordinates and the signal?
[22:04] <craag> You should read the article I linked.
[22:04] <craag> You'll need to run your own receiver
[22:04] <garc> 10mw is a very weak voltage
[22:05] <craag> But others nearby with suitable ham radio / sdr receivers can help you
[22:05] <craag> Yes but it is legal to fly in most european countries without a license :)
[22:05] <craag> And we encourage you to enjoy the hobby legally :)
[22:05] <garc> can I order a ready one rtty tracker from ebay or ali express?
[22:05] <craag> No, please read the article.
[22:06] <garc> can you resent me the link because i got disconnected before a little while?
[22:06] <garc> :)
[22:06] <craag> http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[22:07] <craag> also:
[22:07] <craag> !wiki tracking
[22:07] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Found 0312 results for you query - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/start?do=search&id=tracking
[22:07] <craag> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[22:08] <garc> great...
[22:08] <garc> also I would like to ask
[22:08] <garc> as I said i have made 3 successfull flights!
[22:09] <garc> the system i used is a cheap cell phone with google tracking (you know if you lost your android phone)
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[22:10] <garc> and also I run in background an apllication that sends the coordinates and the altitude and so on via email every minute!
[22:10] <bertrik> didn't know that could work
[22:10] <garc> yes it worked
[22:11] <bertrik> so you still have reception 30km up?
[22:11] <garc> but because there is no signal in such altitudes
[22:11] <garc> you may lost the signal
[22:11] <craag> it'll work when it has network reception, which is not at altitude, and not in a ditch.
[22:11] <garc> so you have to wait until the bursting time of the balloon
[22:12] <garc> just to lower the altitude and connect to gsm tower again to sent back the coordinates!
[22:12] <garc> exactly!
[22:12] <garc> for the moment
[22:13] <garc> I use only balloons 90 cm!
[22:13] <garc> BUT!
[22:13] <garc> THE LAST FLIGHT
[22:14] <garc> MAX ALTITUDE WAS 10000!
[22:14] <garc> with just 4 90cm latex balloons!
[22:14] <garc> and it travelled 100km!!!
[22:14] <garc> with a speed of 240 km at a time!
[22:14] <garc> 240 km/h*
[22:15] Nick change: nickjohnson_ -> nickjohnson
[22:15] <garc> here is my new page!
[22:16] <bertrik> cool
[22:16] <garc> sent me a message if you want to cooperate with us and discuss about this wonderfull project :)
[22:16] <garc> https://www.facebook.com/Thegarcproject
[22:17] <garc> garc means Greek Atmosphere Research Club
[22:17] <bertrik> I think it's fairly typical of latex balloons to reach 20-25 km though, but those are probably larger than 90 cm though
[22:18] <garc> i have next to me a balloon of 1,80 meters!
[22:18] <garc> i am not joking!
[22:18] <garc> in the next flight I am gonna use it
[22:19] <garc> I am quite sure that it would reach stratosphere
[22:19] <garc> also its impossible to tie it due to it's rubber end...
[22:20] <garc> you have to use tie raps and tape in order to tie it...
[22:20] <Darkside> which is normal...
[22:20] <bertrik> the UKHAS radio tracking system with RTTY works pretty well and it's been tested very often, people have a lot of experience with it now etc
[22:20] <bertrik> but I don't know how many receivers are usually available in Greece
[22:21] <garc> you mean that rtty connects to repeaters just like aprs system?
[22:23] <bertrik> the transmitter on the balloon broadcasts a signal, which is received by stations tuned to the balloon frequency and running dl-fldigi and forwarding it back to the central location for presentation at tracker.habhub.org
[22:25] <garc> yes but this seems to be a non accurate method because as you now hab is not very related here in Greece...
[22:25] <bertrik> the RTTY radio connection is unidirectional from balloon to receiver stations I mean
[22:26] <garc> yes but how I know that greece will have rtty repeaters installed?
[22:27] <bertrik> you'll just have to ask on the mailing list I think
[22:27] <Ian_> If you were to identify Greek Amateur Radio operators or clubs and get them interested, the they may be able to help you.
[22:28] <bertrik> the map shows 1 receiver, but usually you only start seeing receivers on the map if they actively connect using dl-fldigi in HAB mode
[22:29] <garc> how you see that they have 1 receiver?
[22:29] <garc> how can i see it?
[22:30] <Ian_> I take it that you are aware of the HCAA permissions required and NOTAMs for HAB flights?
[22:31] <garc> I know that I need licence for hab takeoff
[22:32] <bertrik> garc: go to https://tracker.habhub.org and scroll the map to greece, I see a SV3CIX station in Greece
[22:32] <garc> but because for the moment i use giant party balloons i don't think that it will take a grate altitude...
[22:32] <garc> great*
[22:34] <garc> oh yes...
[22:35] <garc> but how much distance covers?
[22:36] <garc> I mean if I made a take off in greece from a place much more aware than the repeater?
[22:37] <bertrik> if the receiving station is configured properly (good antenna, good location, low noise radio) it can receive over hundred of kilometers, the range is limited mostly by the radio horizon, i.e. if it has line-of-sight to the balloon
[22:38] <bertrik> the radio horizon range (in km) is about 3 times the square root of the balloon altitude in meters
[22:39] <bertrik> so a balloon at 10 km altitude can be received at a range of about 300 km with a good receiver setup
[22:40] <bertrik> this is just rule-of-thumb, not guaranteed range, ofcourse
[22:41] <bertrik> this is approximately the radius of the blue circle on the map I think
[22:41] <garc> 300 km?
[22:41] <michal_f> anyone experienced with open streetmap and vector tiles ?
[22:42] <garc> bertrik send me on facebook please! :)
[22:42] <garc> https://www.facebook.com/Thegarcproject/
[22:44] <SA6BSS-Mike> I have received a 10mW signal from +600 km so dont worry about the low power
[22:45] <michal_f> SA6BSS-Mike, nice
[22:45] <michal_f> what was antenna and radio ?
[22:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> it wsa tx:ing from over northen Poland
[22:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> 20 el and a sdr play
[22:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> + lna ofc
[22:47] <michal_f> I need good yagi. and rotor.
[22:48] <SA6BSS-Mike> it helps :)
[22:48] <bertrik> garc: the green circle around a balloon on the tracker page represents the range where the receiver sees the balloon at 5 degrees (or maybe it was 10 degrees?) above the horizon
[22:49] <SA6BSS-Mike> I have taken it down now and use a 10 el instaed, dayly hearing those wx sondes as realy strong as they come up over 25km, but they tx with abit more power I guess , 60mW ?
[22:50] <SA6BSS-Mike> grom N Pland and Germany
[22:50] <bertrik> garc: so if your receiver is within the blue circle, you should be able to "see" the RTTY signal if you have a good radio setup. If you're within the green circle you should be able to receive and decode it even with a not-so-optimal receiver.
[22:51] <garc> I understand... But how I can make it?
[22:52] <michal_f> I think it's 50mW in poland, but not 100% sure
[22:52] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok
[22:53] <garc> which is the best idea for your opinion? An rtty tracker or a cellphone tracker via gsm tower in roaming mode?
[22:54] <garc> and why?
[22:54] <michal_f> you can have both
[22:55] <garc> thats a good idea but I will increase the payload weight...
[22:59] <garc> guys like here if you want https://www.facebook.com/Thegarcproject
[22:59] <garc> I will try to contact you
[22:59] <garc> :)
[22:59] <garc> here is my page :)
[23:00] <bertrik> garc: I wrote a piece of bridge software that allows gateways from TheThingsNetwork to be used to receive telemetry using LoRa modulation over LoRaWAN protocol
[23:01] <bertrik> there are six receiver locations around Greece as far as I can tell
[23:01] <bertrik> https://ttnmapper.org/ shows where they are
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[23:03] <garc> oh
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[23:04] <garc> yes but rtty works on stratosphere only right?
[23:04] <garc> if i use giant party balloons 90 cm
[23:05] <garc> the max altititude will be 10000 - 12000 meters
[23:05] <garc> so I can't use rtty method right?
[23:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
[23:07] <michal_f> there's no alt limit for rtty
[23:07] <bertrik> any radio link at these frequencies has a limit given by the radio horizon formula, so approximately 300 km at 10 km altitude
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[23:09] <garc> how much possible is not to receive the signal? due to dead radio zone etc...?
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[23:13] <bertrik> I don't understand the question. You get about 100km range at 1km altitude, 300km range at 10km altitude, 500 km range at 30km, approximately.
[23:15] <garc> so you mean that the higher altitude the greater tracking?
[23:15] <bertrik> yes, exactly!
[23:16] <garc> so at 30 km altitude from a takeoff of greece
[23:16] <garc> in greece*
[23:16] <garc> it will be seen by radars and from other countries? :O
[23:18] <garc> Am i right?
[23:20] <bertrik> I don't know about radars, but yes it can be received by any station with the radio horizon range
[23:20] <garc> i mean repeater not radar...
[23:21] <garc> so it can be multiple tracked from many countries simultaniously if it has a great altitude right?
[23:21] <bertrik> yes
[23:23] <bertrik> if it's really close to the ground, the range dimishes quickly, so if you want to recover the payload box, you'll probably need a mobile receiver to keep receiving until just before it lands
[23:24] <garc> oh so I am right it cannot be tracked in all altitudes....
[23:24] <bertrik> so typically, people follow the balloon using car with a radio in it and a laptop to run the dl-fldigi software
[23:25] <garc> but how you will know which area I have to scan with the car and the antenna?
[23:25] <bertrik> maybe a small yagi to pinpoint the landing location
[23:26] <bertrik> the tracker page has a weather/wind model, which it uses to make a prediction where the balloon will land
[23:26] <SpeedEvil> it broadcasts GPS position, so you head there
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[23:28] <daveake> Have you read http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732 ?
[23:28] <daveake> Should answer a lot of your questions
[23:29] <garc> oh so i scan with the car the last coordinates before losing the signal right?
[23:29] <daveake> For chasing you pretty much follow the balloon through the flight so you're close by when it lands. Ideally anyway.
[23:29] <daveake> The live map will then show you a prediction of the actual landing spot - it should be pretty close to that
[23:30] <garc> which antenna shall i use?
[23:30] <daveake> It helps a lot of you can be online in the car, through a phone or whatever
[23:30] <SpeedEvil> And if you're lucky, the payload is still transmitting and has GPS lock, so you just walk to it
[23:30] <garc> which is the most powerfull antenna?
[23:31] <daveake> For the car, something that you can stick on the roof
[23:31] <daveake> You don't need power you just need something convenient
[23:31] <daveake> Also covered in the article I mentioned
[23:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4020341 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4020341
[23:32] <garc> ok if i use a triple yagi?
[23:33] <VK2GPL> Yagi on a car sounds terrible
[23:34] <garc> so which antenna type shall I use?
[23:34] <VK2GPL> quarter wave ground plane with LNA or a turnstile is probably better
[23:35] <VK2GPL> Something with less gain so you've got higher angles otherwise you will struggle at high altitude I suspect. But if that part is covered go high low angle gain then use a yagi once your stopped and can swing it around
[23:37] <garc> what do you mean that I will struggle at high altitude?
[23:37] <VK2GPL> Larger gain vertical antennas reduce vertical beamwidth
[23:38] <VK2GPL> So a quater wave ground plane magnet mount type antenna has high angles but low gain
[23:38] <VK2GPL> But a 5/8 wavelength is higher gain with lower angles
[23:38] <VK2GPL> A yagi is obviously the tightest so you need to actually point it at the transmitter
[23:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5NE_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5NE_chase
[23:38] <VK2GPL> Which sounds fairly crappy to do while driving a car :P
[23:39] <garc> I will have my colleagues to help
[23:39] <garc> :P
[23:39] <garc> for you which is the best antenna so?
[23:40] <garc> ground plane quarter
[23:40] <garc> or 5/8
[23:40] <VK2GPL> I've done no chasing, others will need to answer that :)
[23:40] <VK2GPL> But it's the same principle no matter what your dealing with
[23:40] <garc> I will need you
[23:41] <garc> please like my page to get in touch
[23:41] <garc> https://www.facebook.com/Thegarcproject
[23:41] <garc> :)
[23:41] <garc> also see the takeoff
[23:41] <garc> in a few minutes I will have redy for view the new video
[23:41] <bertrik> if there's a tree within 10 km of the predicted landing spot, it will land it that tree :D just kidding
[23:42] <garc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ublv30qYfZA
[23:42] <garc> hahaha in the 3rd takeoff
[23:43] <garc> the last minute after balloon burst
[23:43] <garc> the air changed it's way
[23:44] <garc> and for 50 meters +- it dropped to the sea
[23:44] <garc> we lost everything
[23:45] <garc> we brought a whole diving center school to the area to investigate
[23:45] <garc> but nothing :(
[23:46] <bertrik> the flights I've seen usually fly a kind of 'Z' pattern, one direction up to a certain altitude, then another direction, and the same pattern in reverse when it's coming down
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[23:49] <garc> why this happens?
[23:49] <garc> I havent seen it but i will make a look...
[23:51] <bertrik> I don't know, but wind at 10 km can be completely different from wind at the earth surface
[23:52] <bertrik> or sometimes there's a lot of wind at the surface but above some altitude it barely moves at all
[23:52] <garc> yes i know....
[23:52] <garc> there is a 1000% accurate wind predictor
[23:52] <garc> called www.windy.com
[23:54] <bertrik> the habhub tracker has a wind model that continuously updates the predicted position of burst and landing
[23:55] <bertrik> you can never really be sure at what altitude it bursts though
[23:57] <garc> that's really and in general with that hobby you cannot be sure for anything
[23:58] <bertrik> a rule-of-thumb I heard here (I think) is just to go in the general direction of the landing spot, but only start paying close attention to the landing position after the balloon has burst
[23:58] <garc> you can lost everything with in a minute is something goes down....
[00:00] --- Tue Dec 4 2018