highaltitude.log.20181122

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[07:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS18 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS18
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[10:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SITS-5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS-5
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[11:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[12:11] <chris_99> re. that ion plane, eventually would it be possible to make it take off too? or is that impossible due to the velocity you need at take off?
[12:16] <AndyEsser> I imagine _eventually_ it might be possible
[12:16] <AndyEsser> I think the catapult is used to demonstrate the minimal amount of thrust needed to sustain flight, rather than start flight
[12:16] <AndyEsser> from a science POV I don't think it requires moving air to start
[12:17] <chris_99> ah i didn't think of that re. the catapult, so you think it might be using ions too at that point?
[12:19] <AndyEsser> no - (well I imagine it might be turned on) but the thrust from the "ion thruster" (term used loosely) won't have enough thrust for take off
[12:19] <AndyEsser> but what they're trying to demonstrate ATM is that it can sustain flight
[12:19] <AndyEsser> focussing efforts just on take off, to find it can't be used to sustain flight is pointless
[12:19] <chris_99> gotcha yeah
[12:20] <AndyEsser> so focus on the actual problem - then when/if it scales - then it might generate enough thrust for take off as well
[12:20] <chris_99> mm
[12:20] <russss> well, it's a question of wheel friction and/or the length of your runway
[12:20] <AndyEsser> and yea - it doesn't have any wheels :P
[12:20] <AndyEsser> to keep weight down
[12:20] <AndyEsser> so takeoff is less easy :P
[12:21] <chris_99> heh
[12:21] <fsphil> just need the entire runway charged
[12:22] <fsphil> do these ion things use a lot of power?
[12:22] <AndyEsser> wonder how easily I can generate +/- 20,000V in the office....
[12:23] <AndyEsser> fsphil: think I saw somewhere that it's like 600W?
[12:23] <AndyEsser> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/nov/21/first-ever-plane-with-no-moving-parts-takes-flight
[12:23] <fsphil> that's quite a lot
[12:23] <AndyEsser> according to this
[12:23] <chris_99> yeah i think i saw that figure too
[12:24] <chris_99> what kind of HV generator are they using out of interest with the batteries
[12:25] <russss> the paper does reveal all
[12:25] <chris_99> oh
[12:26] <chris_99> i didn't know there was a paper
[12:26] <russss> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/K1VZ8es9/image.png
[12:26] <chris_99> ooh thanks
[12:29] <russss> you can click through to the paper from that guardian article, not sure if I can link to it easily
[12:31] <AndyEsser> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0707-9
[12:32] <russss> if you don't click through from the Guardian it won't show you the full paper...
[12:32] <AndyEsser> really?!
[12:32] <AndyEsser> madness
[12:32] <chris_99> haha weird
[12:32] <russss> bleh. http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0707-9
[12:33] <chris_99> they're doing gods work :)
[12:34] <russss> > This level of performance suggested that steady-level flight of a fixed wing unmanned aircraft might be feasible, but at the limit of what is technologically possible using current materials and power electronics technology. It was therefore necessary to systematically search the possible design space for a feasible aircraft designif one were to exist.
[12:35] <fsphil> doesn't sound promising, but then the first aircraft designs where at the limits back then
[12:36] <russss> it's a pretty nice paper but basically their conclusion is that it's unlikely to be practically useful with current technology
[12:36] <fsphil> that doesn't make as good a headline :)
[12:37] <chris_99> heh
[12:38] <chris_99> is the main issue the weight of the batteries then at the moment, like i assume the HV converter part is ok?
[12:39] <chris_99> or power density even of the batteries
[12:39] <russss> well, it still only produced a 2.56% overall efficiency
[12:40] <russss> but that was limited by the wingspan they could fly indoors, they say it could be as high as 5% if you didn't constrain the wingspan!
[12:41] <AndyEsser> woo! 5 whole percent!
[12:41] <fsphil> make it slightly larger than the radius of the earth, it'll be 100% efficient
[12:42] <chris_99> i'm a little confused they say it has the same power to thrust ratio as a jet engine? why is the overall efficiency a lot lower then?
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[12:48] <Ian_> Van De Graaff generator from surgical tube, perspex and a couple of nylon rollers etc. And|Or diode capacitor ladder multiplier.
[12:48] <Ian_> And an apprentice to wind the handle . . . seen the price of electric motors! :)
[12:48] <chris_99> haha
[12:49] <chris_99> that'd be like a wacky races style plane :)
[12:49] <russss> chris_99: I think the difference is that the thrust-to-area (and consequently thrust-to-drag) ratio is massively lower than a jet engine
[12:49] <fsphil> wouldn't this plane fail as soon as it reached a cloud?
[12:49] <chris_99> ahh, interesting
[12:50] <chris_99> you mean the water would really screw it up?
[12:50] <Ian_> Reached a cloud; there is optimism for a start :)
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[12:50] <edmoore> yes it won't help
[12:51] <chris_99> interesting, because it'd 'short' the electrodes maybe? or..
[12:51] <edmoore> chris_99: the missing variable in your thrust/weight thing would be range
[12:51] <edmoore> chris_99: yes
[12:51] <russss> yeah and obviously, always, range
[12:51] <chris_99> good point
[12:52] <russss> ducted fan motors are more efficient but you still have to power them off heavy batteries so they suffer the same problems
[12:52] <edmoore> but this is really the worst way of turning electricty into thrust ever invented
[12:53] <edmoore> (purely from an efficiency pov)
[12:53] <russss> what about a plasma thruster
[12:55] <chris_99> what about the EmDrive
[12:56] <russss> hah
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[13:15] <AndyEsser> wasn't mentioning EmDrive cause for instabanning in here?
[13:18] <chris_99> heh
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[14:15] Nick change: gonzo_- -> gonzo_
[14:16] <gonzo_> next they will have hybrid planes. You know, with a standard engine for 'backup'
[14:16] <gonzo_> so they get some green blassing and tax breaks, but end up being less efficient than a standard design
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Very short hops I could see it working.
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Flights of some perhaps half an hour tops
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Unless of course beamed power kicks in.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Though I note that going from electricity -> methane is ~50% efficient, which also sets a cap on things in principle.
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> https://bioenergyinternational.com/technology-suppliers/hitachi-zosen-inova-acquires-assets-of-etogas-gmbh
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> (at 6MW)
[15:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PB0AHX - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PB0AHX
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[16:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AGHSS - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AGHSS
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[16:54] <eisvogel201> Can someone approve my flight document? Flight name: "QUEST-01". Launch is going to be on this weekend, probably on saturday :)
[16:54] <mfa298> eisvogel201: you should join #habhub and paste the flightdoc id (long string of letters and numbers) in there asking for approval
[16:55] <mfa298> a bot will then check it and hopefully an admin will then approve (if the checks look good)
[16:58] <eisvogel201> Alright, thanks for the information! It is my first launch so far, hopefully everything will work fine
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[19:02] <PE2BZ> The habdec decoder has been upgraded with a --ppm setting to support rtl dongles without txco https://github.com/ogre/habdec
[19:03] <PE2BZ> And AFC appears to work nice also
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[21:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DG2FS test_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DG2FS%20test_chase
[22:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS18 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS18
[22:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI4Z - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI4Z
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[23:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[00:00] --- Fri Nov 23 2018