highaltitude.log.20181112

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[08:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI4Zhab after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI4Zhab
[08:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP9UOB after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9UOB
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[10:44] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DG6XXL-5 after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DG6XXL-5
[10:44] <chris_99> http://www.m2lasers.com/quantum_compass_could_allow_navigation_without_relying_on_satellites.html - now to tether one of those to a balloon ;)
[10:45] <chris_99> it sounds a really neat project, i think it sounds like it only detects acceleration in one direction at the mo though?
[10:45] <craag> yep
[10:45] <craag> also a little heavier than a max-6 ;)
[10:46] <chris_99> hehe
[10:46] <chris_99> i'm very curious how error builds up over time
[10:47] <craag> it's basically a very accurate inertial navigation system
[10:47] <craag> there's plenty of literature around about them
[10:47] <chris_99> but say over hours of running
[10:47] <chris_99> it must become less accurate?
[10:47] <craag> yes
[10:48] <russss> there is tons of literature about this because inertial navigation is not a particularly new thing
[10:48] <chris_99> but is there literature about this, is what i mean
[10:48] <chris_99> about the error from that
[10:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP5NVX - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5NVX
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[10:53] <chris_99> i thought dead reckoning doesn't work very well at all with a mems accelerometer currently?
[10:54] <chris_99> what other systems give decent accuracy out of interest
[10:54] <russss> it really depends on how you define "very well"
[10:54] <chris_99> mm heh
[10:55] <chris_99> i found this a while ago, which is quite interesting - https://medium.com/@gregorymfoster/how-any-app-could-track-the-indoor-location-of-everyone-magnetic-localization-acf3707716de
[10:55] <russss> if you're navigating a ship at sea then a few miles drift after a few hours is perfectly acceptable
[10:56] <chris_99> true, i guess i'm thinking of something you could use in a car
[10:56] <russss> but if you're navigating a self-driving car then, less so.
[10:56] <chris_99> mm
[10:56] <russss> but you're also not going to be navigating a self-driving car using an accelerometer alone
[10:58] <chris_99> i guess a submarine would be a key use of this device
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[11:02] <russss> submarines and ships (especially military) have used inertial navigation for many years, initially with old-school mechanical gyroscopes
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[11:03] <sp5nvx> hi all!
[11:03] <russss> I think (but I can't be bothered to check) that modern MEMS accelerometers have better accuracy than mechanical gyros
[11:03] <chris_99> cool i didn't know they used gyroscopes. i recall submarines also using gravimeters for some navigation
[11:04] <russss> yeah I bet there are a lot of tricks you can use to navigate submarines
[11:04] <edmoore> russss: no
[11:04] <edmoore> quite the opposite, by at least an order of magnitude
[11:04] <russss> I stand corrected
[11:04] <chris_99> mechanical gyros are more accurate?
[11:04] <russss> anyway I can't seem to find any accuracy data on this quantum thing
[11:04] <chris_99> do you mean Ring laser gyroscope?
[11:05] <chris_99> oh sorry they apparently dont have mechanical stuff
[11:05] <chris_99> in
[11:05] <sp5nvx> join habhub
[11:06] <sp5nvx> join/habhub
[11:06] <edmoore> ring laser gyros are the easiest best gyroscope if you're a military person
[11:06] <sp5nvx> join/#habhub
[11:06] <chris_99> you need the slash at the start ;)
[11:06] <edmoore> sp5nvx: /join #habhub
[11:06] <sp5nvx> tnx
[11:06] <chris_99> edmoore: is a ring laser gyro a type of accelerometer or is it kind of different
[11:07] <edmoore> nope it's a kind of gyroscope
[11:07] <edmoore> it measures rotation
[11:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
[11:07] <edmoore> you really need both 3 gyroscopes and 3 acceleroemeters to determine your position and orientation, if you're measuring in one place
[11:08] <chris_99> oh i didn't realise that, you can't use one or the other then?
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[11:08] <edmoore> no
[11:09] <edmoore> imagine you had just three accelerometers in a box, each at 90 degrees to each other
[11:09] <edmoore> they can measure where you go if you move the box around, keeping its faces parallel to the starting position
[11:09] <edmoore> but if you start to rotate the box aswell, the accelerometers can't track that
[11:10] <chris_99> ah interesting
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[11:10] <chris_99> yeah that makes sense
[11:10] <edmoore> so you have to add gyroscopes that can only measure the rotations, to complemenent the accelerometers that can only measure accelerations
[11:10] <edmoore> and between those two you can calculate your position and your orientation
[11:10] <edmoore> and that's how subs/icbms/whatever do it
[11:11] <chris_99> but if you only cared about 'position' of a car for example you could do without the gyros? assuming the accelerometer was super accurate?
[11:11] <chris_99> like you could infer the direction the car is moving
[11:11] <chris_99> from multiple points
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[11:12] <edmoore> if you have accelerometers in the corners of the car, for example, you could in theory measure going around the corner
[11:12] <edmoore> because the outer ones will see a higher acceleration than the inner ones
[11:12] <russss> for cars you have tons of other signals too, I suspect the hardest part is combining them in a sensible way
[11:12] <edmoore> (in the direction of the turn)
[11:12] <chris_99> gotcha. can a gyro tell you if rotation is acclerating too i guess?
[11:13] <edmoore> however they would then be confused by things like camber, because they would also detect the component of gravity that's now in their plane, because the car is tilted, and not be able to tell it's gravity vs just going round the corner faster or tighter
[11:13] <chris_99> ahhh
[11:13] <edmoore> chris_99: no, but between the gyros and the accels you can back out everything (in theory)
[11:13] <edmoore> in practice as russ says you use other sources of information too, to make it easier
[11:13] <chris_99> ah, so it can only measure constant velocity then?
[11:13] <edmoore> no
[11:13] Nick change: fl__0 -> fl_0
[11:14] <edmoore> constant velocity is zero acceleration, by definition
[11:14] <edmoore> and they measure acceleration
[11:14] <russss> you can generally assume that a car is sitting level on a road, which does simplify the position solution somewhat.
[11:14] <chris_99> edmoore: sorry was refering to gyro
[11:14] <edmoore> chris_99: gyros don't know or car about velocity or acceleration
[11:14] <edmoore> they just merasure rotation (again in theory)
[11:15] <chris_99> ok so dumb question, what does a gyro give you in units? i'm a bit confused, degrees?
[11:15] <edmoore> you can be sat on a table doing 10 degrees per second rotation, or you can be on a missile boosting out of the atmosphere doing 10 degrees per second, the gyros doesn't care, it just measures the 10 degrees per second
[11:15] <russss> degrees/sec
[11:15] <edmoore> degrees/second
[11:15] <chris_99> ahh
[11:15] <chris_99> thanks
[11:15] <edmoore> that's what we call a rate gyroscope, strictly
[11:16] <edmoore> so if you measure 10 degrees/sec for say 9 secs, you know you're now pointed 90 degrees from where you were before
[11:16] <russss> cars also know their velocity pretty accurately because they know how fast the wheels are turning.
[11:16] <chris_99> ah i got you now, thanks
[11:20] <chris_99> so out of interest, what may be the most accurate type of accelerometer, that doesn't use quantum effects?
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[11:22] <edmoore> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGA_accelerometer
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[11:22] <chris_99> wow cheers
[11:22] <chris_99> 8.5m seems pretty good per hour
[11:23] <edmoore> if you have a budget, you can make almost arbitrarily good mechanical accel and gyros, which was is what they did for the early ICBMs, apoloo etc
[11:23] <chris_99> interesting, im kind of suprised the best ones are mechanical
[11:23] <edmoore> i mean arbitrarily good within reason, without doing lab-grade laser cooling of atoms and things
[11:23] <chris_99> mm
[11:24] <chris_99> i wonder if you can get one from a surplus place heh
[11:25] <edmoore> well modern versions of that principle probably don't use bearings and lumps of lead
[11:25] <edmoore> e.g. your average military grade imu will use quartz resonating beams
[11:25] <edmoore> but it's a mechanical principle, rather than a quantum one
[11:25] <chris_99> aha
[11:25] <chris_99> ive seen some ring laser gyros on ebay before actualyl
[11:26] <edmoore> they are very lovely
[11:26] <chris_99> mm they look really neat
[11:26] <russss> well, strictly MEMS accelerometers use the same principle as well
[11:26] <russss> but I guess heavier masses imply lower noise
[11:29] <edmoore> this is probably the most accurate one i know about http://www3.ogs.trieste.it/bgta/pdf/bgta40.3.4_TOUBOUL.pdf
[11:30] <chris_99> thanks, will have a read of that later
[11:31] <edmoore> it's the same principle
[11:31] <edmoore> just made to be very accurate
[11:31] <chris_99> cool
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[11:34] <chris_99> this may be me misunderstanding, but i think i've heard with an IMU, they combine the data from the gyro + accelerometer somehow? if so why do they do that
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[11:35] <edmoore> start by asking what you want to come out of an IMU
[11:36] <edmoore> e.g. you're making an autopilot to land a plane - what do you need to know?
[11:36] <chris_99> position and orientation?
[11:36] <edmoore> yep
[11:36] <chris_99> but i thought you could get orientation from the gyro
[11:37] <edmoore> so if you have 3 gyro and 3 accels you have 6 numbers
[11:37] <chris_99> and position from the accel
[11:37] <edmoore> 3 things that are degrees per second
[11:37] <edmoore> and 3 things that are meters per second per second
[11:37] <edmoore> (the latter being the unit of acceleration)
[11:38] <edmoore> how do you turn that into latitude and longitude and how tilted your wings are relative to the horizon?
[11:39] <edmoore> you need a mathematical model to turn these numbers into a position and attitude
[11:40] <chris_99> ahh i think i sort of see
[11:40] <edmoore> e.g. in a plane, say you have 3 accels measuring up-down, left-right, and forward-back
[11:40] <edmoore> then say you turn the plane by banking hard
[11:40] <edmoore> that means the plane is now almost sideways, so your up-down accel is actually now measuring the 'left-right' movement
[11:41] <edmoore> so you need to use your gyros to keep track of the reference frame in which the accels are now measuring, and turn that back into the earth-relative (North/South, East/west, up/down) reference frame
[11:41] <chris_99> oh wow, gotcha, that sounds complex
[11:41] <edmoore> by the way, this is the easy bit because it assumes the accels just measure accel and gyros just meeasure rotation
[11:42] <edmoore> in reality, there are real-world affects that mess this all up for you
[11:42] <chris_99> aha
[11:42] <edmoore> both accels and gyros have biases and non-linearities
[11:43] <chris_99> that makes a lot of sense now, as to why you need a gyro too
[11:43] <edmoore> so for example, i buy a gyroscope from ebay, it says it does -5V output for -100 degrees/sec, 5V for 100 degrees/sec, 0V for 0 degrees per sec
[11:44] <edmoore> but actually it's not exactly 0V for 0 degrees, it might be that at 0 degrees/sec it might actually be 0.05V, or that voltage might drift around with temp
[11:45] <edmoore> so if you measure is sat still, but it's actually outputting 0.05V, according to the datasheet that's actually 1 degree per second
[11:45] <edmoore> so if you put it still on your table for 1 min, it actually things it's rotated 60 degrees
[11:45] <edmoore> so your IMU actually has to track and correct for this bias
[11:45] <edmoore> the same is true for accelerometers
[11:46] <edmoore> the have biases that mean that even if sat still on the desk they might think they've moved 50m away after being sat for a min
[11:46] <chris_99> wow
[11:46] <edmoore> so your IMU has to track gyro and accel bias, and other real affects like misalignment bewteen each of the gyros and accels and the plane they're mounted in, and and and
[11:46] <edmoore> and there is noise on the output from vibrating engines and so on
[11:46] <chris_99> is that bias constant, like if you measured it sitting still could you try to eraddicate that?
[11:47] <chris_99> oh you mention temp too
[11:47] <edmoore> so you build a huge probabilistic mathematical model of all of this stuff we've biscussed, and do a high-dimensional version of putting a line of best fir through all this data
[11:47] <edmoore> the algorithm that does this is a clever mathematical things called a Kalman Filter
[11:47] <russss> if you're using this in a critical application you also probably have 3 of each sensor which makes things easier/harder depending on your perspective.
[11:48] <edmoore> it's really just doing a line of best fit, but in a way that understands probability distributions of all this error, a little better
[11:49] <edmoore> there are other even more sophisticated algorithms, but kalman filters are by far the most common way, and used in the real world all the time. apollo program was one of the first uses
[11:50] <chris_99> cool, what's one of the more complex ones out of interest?
[11:50] <edmoore> so really, what an IMU is doing is taking in gyro and accel, and often barometric pressure and gps, and anything really, each of these sensors having advantages and inaccuracies, and doers its best to combine all these into a great big thing to spit out with your positions, orientations, velocities, rotation rates, etc
[11:50] <edmoore> but that thing is called a 'state estimate'
[11:50] <edmoore> because it really is just a best guess
[11:51] <chris_99> mm gotcha
[11:51] <edmoore> a mathematically principled buest guess, but still a guess
[11:51] <edmoore> more compelx ones are things like particle filters
[11:51] <edmoore> kalman filters assume your dyanmics are 'linear' and that all the noise on your sensors fits a bell curve
[11:51] <edmoore> particle filter assumes nothing
[11:52] <edmoore> at the cost of it being vastly more computationally expensive
[11:53] <chris_99> oh particle filtering rings a bell, that's what that thing i linked to earlier used apparently, i imagine both are very complex though?
[11:53] <chris_99> to use i mean
[11:53] <edmoore> yes, self driving cars are into particle filtering
[11:53] <edmoore> they're actually simpler to understand that a kalman filter, i think
[11:53] <chris_99> oh interesting
[11:53] <edmoore> they're more general
[11:55] <chris_99> it seems there's so many variables and sources of error!
[11:55] <edmoore> yep!
[11:55] <edmoore> so all of this is underpinned by the power of statistics
[11:55] <edmoore> we can work with all of these individually 'noisy' (error-prone) sources and combine them in a clever way to improve the estimate
[11:56] <edmoore> both kalman filtering and particle filter are both just specific examples of a general idea called bayesian filtering
[11:56] <chris_99> that's really neat, so by combining the gyro and accelerometer + ... , it becomes more accuraet?
[11:57] <edmoore> the bayesian refering to thomas bayes, who invented bayes rule, which is the beautiful single equation that underpins most of statistics and to an extent philosophy
[11:57] <edmoore> chris_99: yep
[11:57] <chris_99> i've only ever implemented a very poor spam filter, based on something of his, but that was a long time ago
[11:58] <chris_99> but that was quite fun
[11:58] <edmoore> this is really the same mathematical principle that your can intuitively understand in the following way:
[11:58] <edmoore> i have a coin and i flip it twice, and i get one head and one tail
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[11:58] <edmoore> and i say 'aha! i have proven that there's a 50/50 chance of heads and tails!!'
[11:59] <chris_99> heh
[11:59] <edmoore> and you intuitively thing 'mmmmm, well not really because it could just be luck and you could just as easily have got head-head, or tail-tail, or head+tail might mean it's really 55-45 rather than 50/50, or...'
[11:59] <edmoore> etc
[12:00] <edmoore> and so i do 4 flips, with 2 head and two tails, and that's a bit better, but still not mega convincing that it's not 60/40 or whatever
[12:01] <edmoore> anyway, if i do 1000 tests, with 503/497 heads and tails, you are far more confident in the statement that says 'the model that explains what i'm seeing is a 50/50 probability of heads of tails'
[12:02] <edmoore> and so by adding more 'observations' from different sensors, even if none of them are conclusive on their own, we can grown more confidence in saying 'everything the sensors are telling me is best explained by my being at this position and orientation'
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[12:03] <chris_99> gotcha, that makes sense
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[12:04] <edmoore> this maths also underpins error correcting codes (eg sending tv signals over the air and reconstructing them into a perfect picture, or writing stuff to a hard disc then reading it back later uncorrupted) and data compression, and so on. it's all to do with comparing what you're seeing with an internal mathematical model of what you're expecting
[12:04] <edmoore> it's all very beautiful and lovely
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[12:07] <chris_99> oh i didn't know that wrt ecc stuff
[12:08] <chris_99> is maths one of your fields? it's something i'd like to improve on, i don't even know basic calculus atm, but i've bought a book i plan to work through
[12:09] <edmoore> i'm an engineer, but my masters was in that field
[12:09] <chris_99> neat
[12:09] <edmoore> information theory, statistical signal processing, control theory etc
[12:10] <AndyEsser> that reminds me, I have an OU assignment due on Thursday regarding maths.....
[12:10] <chris_99> edmoore: nice!
[12:10] <chris_99> cool what degree are you doing AndyEsser?
[12:10] <AndyEsser> Masters of Engineering
[12:10] <chris_99> oh neat
[12:11] <edmoore> assuming you can differentiate and integrate, and have done a first course in statistics so you know what a mean, variance, binomial distribution etc is, then there's a really fantastic textbook on all of this
[12:11] <edmoore> one of the best i own about any topic
[12:11] <AndyEsser> (it's a combined bachelors + masters, as I don't have a degree)
[12:11] <edmoore> it's called 'Information Theory, Inference and Learning Algorithms' for David MacKay
[12:11] <AndyEsser> Ta :D
[12:11] <edmoore> it's free online but good enough that i have a couple of physical copies
[12:11] <chris_99> ooh
[12:12] <AndyEsser> much of the books on my bookshelf are purchased purely because of an edmoore recommendation :D
[12:12] <chris_99> heh nice
[12:12] <edmoore> and anyway it's a romp through information theory and it's applications (error correction, communication, compression, machine learning, neural networks) and you sort of see the matrix underpinning it all
[12:13] <chris_99> that sounds really good! i would like to understand the maths more behind a neural net etc.
[12:14] <edmoore> well as i say, assuming you have done some maths in the past and don't mind getting back up to speed, it's great
[12:14] <edmoore> it's designed for undergrad physicists
[12:14] <chris_99> https://www.amazon.co.uk/No-bullshit-guide-math-physics/dp/0992001005 is what i'm starting with ;)
[12:14] <chris_99> for a very basic intro
[12:15] <edmoore> brill
[12:15] <edmoore> ask here too
[12:15] <chris_99> cheers
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[17:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI4Zhab after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI4Zhab
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[18:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS18 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS18
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[21:36] <LBW> hello all!
[21:47] <fsphil> ahoy
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[00:00] --- Tue Nov 13 2018