highaltitude.log.20181110

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[01:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5PW_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5PW_chase
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[06:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS18 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS18
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[08:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> here is a relay easy gps/aprs project , 2 cheap boards and 3 passive components and ofc a handheld 2m radio http://www.f4huy.fr/?p=1464
[08:35] <SA6BSS-Mike> if to use it on a hab, flight mode have to be aded for the chosen gps
[09:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP9UOB after 0318 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9UOB
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[10:57] <forfengeligfaen> Hi, I'm new here. Would a ground station for habhub.org near Oslo be useful?
[10:58] <Darkside> you're welcome to track any flight you can hear
[10:59] <forfengeligfaen> I can't see any stations in Norway so I guess it would add coverage?
[11:00] <Darkside> not sure how many flights go that way
[11:00] <forfengeligfaen> ok
[11:00] <Darkside> remember that there's a fair bit of manual involvement to track these flights
[11:00] <Darkside> its not realyl a set-and-forget system
[11:00] <forfengeligfaen> ok
[11:01] <Darkside> definitely have a go tracking any flights if they come into your area
[11:01] <Darkside> but im not sure what flights will do that
[11:02] <forfengeligfaen> Maybe I can try to get a signal from BSS18
[11:02] <Darkside> !whereis BSS18
[11:02] <SpacenearUS> 03Darkside: 03BSS18 was over 0358.10416,13.54166 at 038940 meters about 0336 minutes ago
[11:02] <Darkside> hmm
[11:03] <Darkside> !dial BSS18
[11:03] <SpacenearUS> 03Darkside: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[11:03] <Darkside> bah
[11:04] <forfengeligfaen> Can I see on tracker.habhub.org what frequency / modulation any given flight is using?
[11:04] <Darkside> yeah no idea
[11:06] <Darkside> its only there if they create a 'flight document' which im guessing wasnt done for this flight
[11:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
[11:08] <forfengeligfaen> OK thanks :)
[11:14] <forfengeligfaen> Do you know if anybody has flown a FS1000A transmitter in a balloon? I'm wondering how the range compares to the NTX2
[11:15] <Darkside> oh those things are howwible
[11:15] <Darkside> horrible*
[11:15] <Darkside> their frequency stability is shit
[11:15] <forfengeligfaen> It's a much cheaper unit
[11:15] <Darkside> and im fairly sure that you wouldnt be able to modulate them to produce RTTY
[11:16] <Darkside> frequency stability with temperature matters a *lot* on a balloon flight
[11:17] <Darkside> ahh, those modules are OOK modulation too (on-off keying), so not that useful
[11:17] <forfengeligfaen> Seems like the trend is moving towards LoRa though?
[11:18] <Darkside> in europe it is..
[11:18] <Darkside> its certainly easier to get going, especially with daveake's pi-in-the-sky and ground station software
[11:21] <forfengeligfaen> But you're using the LoRa chip in an FSK mode? http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=2350
[11:21] <forfengeligfaen> So not the LoRa protocol?
[11:21] <Darkside> most of the time its the LoRA modulation scheme
[11:21] <Darkside> dave's just working on ways to do RTTY using them
[11:22] <Darkside> i mean, its possible right now with the correct wiring, his way is just a bit cleaner
[11:23] <forfengeligfaen> But what kind of range can you get using vanilla LoRa?
[11:24] <Darkside> a lot
[11:24] <Darkside> more than enough for a hab flight
[11:24] <forfengeligfaen> and it's two way?
[11:24] <Darkside> a lot of it comes down to selecting the appropriate settings
[11:24] <Darkside> most flights are only using it in one direction
[11:25] <Darkside> but yes, its possible to do two-way communication, for example to command the payload to do something
[11:25] <Darkside> i use lora for my 'cutdown' payload
[11:25] <Darkside> where i trigger a cutdown device via a command from the ground
[11:26] <forfengeligfaen> That's great
[11:26] <forfengeligfaen> And the range is comparable to the FS1000A?
[11:27] <Darkside> a lot better i would expect
[11:27] <Darkside> you need to remember that range is not just a function of what module you are using
[11:27] <forfengeligfaen> I read that the FS1000A got several hundred English miles
[11:27] <Darkside> it's a function of transmit power, antenna gains, modulation settings, etc
[11:27] <Darkside> got a source for that?
[11:29] <forfengeligfaen> Sorry, I mean the NTX2 had a range of several hundred miles
[11:30] <Darkside> sure, running 50 baud RTTY
[11:30] <Darkside> LoRa will do similar
[11:30] <Darkside> the effective bit rate of the most commonly used lora mode is not that far off 50 baud RTTY
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[11:31] <Darkside> run it at a higher effective bit rate, and the achivable range will decrease
[11:32] <forfengeligfaen> Do you need to decide what settings to use before you launch or does it degrade dynamically?
[11:33] <Darkside> they are generally fixed
[11:33] <forfengeligfaen> What modules are people using?
[11:33] <Darkside> HopeRF RFM98W, for the most part
[11:34] <Darkside> Uputronics sells arduino and raspberry pi shields
[11:36] <mfa298> I think the record for 50bd rtty was something like 800km, but the receiver had a very good setup (steerable yagi etc.)
[11:37] <forfengeligfaen> That's pretty amazing
[11:37] <bertrik> isn't it mostly radio horizon that determines range
[11:37] <Darkside> we've had similar distances here in australia too
[11:37] <mfa298> for rtty (and other similar low bandwidth things) it's mostly been horizon that limits range (as bertrik says)
[11:38] <mfa298> I think the main reason daveake and others are playing at using the Lora modules to send occasional rtty packets is to keep those against lora happy.
[11:39] <forfengeligfaen> What are the downsides of LoRA?
[11:39] <Darkside> proprietary modulation scheme
[11:39] <mfa298> Lora has the benefit of being cheaper and making better use of the resources but is a closed thing so you can only do Lora with a Lora module (officially at least)
[11:40] <Darkside> mfa298: well... the bandwidth usage is pretty insane
[11:40] <daveake> Well, more to allow those without LoRa receivers to get involved in the flight.
[11:40] <Darkside> mfa298: given similar performance (at least in a single direction) is possible at a fraction of the bandwidth and the right modem
[11:40] <Darkside> but its sure as hell an easy solution for two-way comms with a payload
[11:41] <mfa298> Darkside: that's what I was trying to mean by saying better use of the resources
[11:41] <Darkside> mfa298: by insane, i mean its using a huge bandwidth
[11:41] <Darkside> i get the reasons why its doing it, and they make sense in an IoT scenario
[11:41] <Darkside> all about interferer rejection
[11:42] <mfa298> ah sorry, yes see what you mean
[11:42] <bertrik> one of the competing solutions to LoRa uses extreme *narrowband* :)
[11:43] <Darkside> bertrik: which one is that?
[11:43] <Darkside> our 4FSK modem is narrowband too, and gets probably better perforance than LoRa :P
[11:43] <Darkside> but its not available in a nice little radio module solution :-(
[11:43] <forfengeligfaen> Agree it's not good that LoRa proprietary. Balint 🇦🇺 did a deep dive into the protocol https://pubs.gnuradio.org/index.php/grcon/article/download/8/7
[11:44] <Darkside> hence why LoRa is going to stick around for a while for those wanting two-way comms
[11:44] <bertrik> Darkside: I think that was sigfox
[11:44] <Darkside> ahh
[11:44] <Darkside> another proprietary modem
[11:44] <bertrik> I played around with LoRa trying to reverse engineer and there is a patent describing how the principle works
[11:45] <Darkside> i thin sigfox is really more aimed at the IoT applications
[11:45] <Darkside> LoRa can be used for more than just that
[11:45] <bertrik> it's basically full sweeps over a fixed bandwidth , with the starting position of the sweep encoding for the symbol, a symbol can encode for multiple bits
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[11:46] <Darkside> bertrik: and there is gr-LoRa afaik...
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[11:46] <Darkside> would be nice to have a fully open source rx implementation for these balloon payloads
[11:46] <Darkside> should certainly be possible...
[11:46] <bertrik> any interferer that isn't sweeping at the same rate as the signal is basically spread out with their interference minimized
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[11:46] <forfengeligfaen> Can you have multiple receivers listening to a LoRa transmitter or is the transmitter and the receiver paired like bluetooth?
[11:47] <Darkside> forfengeligfaen: there are usually *many* receivers
[11:47] <Darkside> its not a paired thing
[11:47] <Darkside> its just sending a packet out into the ether...
[11:47] <forfengeligfaen> so anybody can listen to the balloon then? That's good
[11:47] <Darkside> thats kind of the point
[11:47] <Darkside> well, anyone with a LoRa receiver
[11:48] <Darkside> bertrik: hrm balint's gr-lora repo doesnt handle the CRCs
[11:48] <Darkside> there might be a more developed fork
[11:49] <mfa298> you might be able to limit who can decode a lora transmission (I know other hoperf modules support encryption) but that's generally not wanted for HABs (although people using uplinks usually add some security)
[11:49] <forfengeligfaen> So potentially it would be possible to create set-and-forget listening network based on LoRa?
[11:49] <Darkside> it alreasy exists
[11:49] <Darkside> already*
[11:50] <Darkside> that's what dave's lora gateway code does
[11:50] <Darkside> https://github.com/PiInTheSky/lora-gateway
[11:50] <bertrik> forfengeligfaen: there is a LoRaWAN specification that adds a kind of network layer on top of LoRa
[11:51] <bertrik> The "TheThingsNetwork" uses it, potentially turning each of their gateways into a HAB receiver
[11:52] <forfengeligfaen> @Darkside, I though you said it was not a set-and-forget system, maybe that was rtty?
[11:52] <bertrik> LoRaWAN adds concept like device addresses, encryption keys, a frame format, DHCP-like over-the-air joining/activation procedure, etc.
[11:53] <Darkside> forfengeligfaen: yes, thats what i meant
[11:53] <forfengeligfaen> I'll look into the Habitat LoRa Gateway
[11:53] <forfengeligfaen> Thanks :)
[11:54] <mfa298> RTTY definetly isn't set and forget (lots of things need configuration) so far HAB Lora has needed some configuration but there's a plan for a Listening channel which has been used on a few flights making it set and forget
[11:54] <mfa298> Lora also has the benefit that the gateway runs in a terminal so you can manage it via ssh
[11:55] <bertrik> and LoRa isn't supersensitive to small frequency offsets
[11:59] <forfengeligfaen> Has anybody tried flying a RC plane / drone flight controller instead of a Raspberry Pi? (Very cheap, light weight, built in barometer, compass and accelerometer open source firmware)
[12:00] <forfengeligfaen> e.g. https://www.banggood.com/no/Upgrade-NAZE32-F3-Flight-Controller-Acro-6-DOF-Deluxe-10-DOF-for-Multirotor-Racing-p-1010232.html?gmcCountry=NO&currency=NOK&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_ods&utm_content=heath&utm_campaign=pla-ods-no-no&creative=297034554187&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1KzN4t3J3gIVSeaaCh0s6As9EAQYASABEgKnXvD_BwE&ID=519209&cur_warehouse=CN
[12:01] <Darkside> lots of payloads use AVRs or other micros
[12:01] <mfa298> plenty of people have made custom microcontroller based payloads
[12:02] <mfa298> some people still fly them alongside a Raspberry as a backup
[12:03] <mfa298> barometer based flight controllers aren't that good for tracking (unless your mexican) as they're not that accurate for altitude above a few km
[12:03] <Darkside> mfa298: haha
[12:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03OK1KZL after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OK1KZL
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[12:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5LJG-9_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5LJG-9_chase
[12:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9HFJ-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9HFJ-11
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[13:31] <PE2BZ> Good afternoon all :-) My yesterday flight had a GPS altitide stuck on 8131 m altitude (during ascend) and recovered at 5297 m (during descend)
[13:32] <PE2BZ> I used this GPS module https://www.banggood.com/GY-GPS-Module-Board-9600-Baud-Rate-With-Antenna-For-Arduino-p-1196661.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CN
[13:33] <PE2BZ> only this time the GPS module was not that good isolated. If the backup battery got -40 degrees (there was only 5 mm foam isolation on the GPS module) coud that ¨hang¨ the GPS ?
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[13:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OK1KZL-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OK1KZL-12
[13:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE0SS-9 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE0SS-9
[13:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-12
[13:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HABISRAEL after 0311 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HABISRAEL
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[14:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE0SS-13 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE0SS-13
[14:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-1
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[14:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI0-BZ - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI0-BZ
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[15:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6DWA-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6DWA-11
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[16:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Ok1KZL-chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Ok1KZL-chase
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[21:06] Nick change: qyx_ -> qyx
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[22:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK2PET-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK2PET-11
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[23:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[23:29] bertrik (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik) left irc: Quit: Lost terminal
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[00:00] --- Sun Nov 11 2018