highaltitude.log.20180423

[00:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3420695 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3420695
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[00:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2110072 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2110072
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[04:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[04:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3650462 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3650462
[04:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS13 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS13
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[04:20] Nick change: day__ -> day
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[04:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4130516 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4130516
[05:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DK3SB-2 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DK3SB-2
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[05:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4630027 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4630027
[05:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2110068 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2110068
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[07:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SQ2ODE-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ2ODE-11
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[07:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3730140 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3730140
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[07:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3B-15 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3B-15
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[08:28] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[09:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PILOTS-GR after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PILOTS-GR
[09:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CHANGEME - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CHANGEME
[09:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SQ7ACP-11 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ7ACP-11
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[09:35] Nick change: dbrooke_ -> dbrooke
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[09:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N5140564 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N5140564
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[10:13] <Ian_> .whereis HIRFW-6
[10:13] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: 03HIRFW-6 was over 03Svalbard, Svalbard and Jan Mayen 10(75.48107,20.96215) at 0311999 meters about 0317 minutes ago
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[10:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PL_02 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PL_02
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[11:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4130525 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4130525
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[11:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3640586 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3640586
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[11:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3730142 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3730142
[11:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2440737 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2440737
[11:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[12:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2140358 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2140358
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[12:16] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F6KFI-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F6KFI-11
[12:21] <arjunnaha> Any feasibility of using any of Ubiquiti's radio stuff to TX/RX airborne? https://www.ubnt.com/products/#default specifically, the NanoStation AC.
[12:21] <Darkside> you'd have to run the link budgets
[12:22] <Darkside> i suspect it would require a fairly large dish on the ground, accurately tracked
[12:22] <Darkside> remembering the antenna on the payload would have to have a pretty much hemispherical radiation pattern, so not a lot of gain
[12:22] <Darkside> distance wise, i've heard of ubiquiti gear being used for 50 km links, so with a ground station in the right place, it *might* be ok
[12:22] <arjunnaha> Sounds like a possibility with a lot of research
[12:23] <arjunnaha> Also, I imagine los will make it a lot easier
[12:23] <Darkside> well the long distance links are all line of sight
[12:23] <Darkside> usually big hill to big hill, or tall building to anotehr tall building
[12:23] <arjunnaha> Ah
[12:23] <fsphil> or mountain to mountain for the really long links
[12:23] <Darkside> yeah
[12:24] <Darkside> i have heard of someone running somethign like a rocket M2 on a balloon and using a large tracked dish on the ground
[12:24] <Darkside> i think they tried to downlink video, not sure how well it worked
[12:24] <arjunnaha> That would be interesting to see how that worked out
[12:25] <arjunnaha> I mean, using that equipment you should be able to get a pretty high bandwidth
[12:25] <Darkside> perhaps
[12:25] <Darkside> a few megabits should certainly be possible
[12:25] <Darkside> but yes, i expect you would need a rather large dish on the ground to make up for the lack of gain on the payload
[12:25] <russss> your FSPL at 100km on 5.5GHz is about -150dB
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> 2.4m dishes are moderately inexpensive.
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> But the increase is only linear.
[12:26] <Darkside> remember that all these long links are goign to be using *big* dishes on *each end*
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> So a 2.4m dish does only 48 or so times better than a 5cm 'omni'
[12:26] <Darkside> so if you want to acheive the same gain with a dish on one end, that dish needs to be big
[12:26] <arjunnaha> Even the slightly bigger Ubiquiti antennas are quite heavy
[12:27] <russss> so you've got +25dBm to start with, +3dB payload antenna gain, +20dB ground antenna gain (say) gives you about -102dBm.
[12:27] <russss> the max sensitivity of those ubiquiti modules is -96dBm
[12:27] <Darkside> russss: what about running on 2.4 ghz?
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> (48 times range)
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8M-Satellite-Dish-Panelled-European-Satellite-Spain-Italy-Bulgaria/152906185889
[12:28] <russss> 2.4 saves you 7dB of FSPL but you'll probably lose that from ground interference. Which is the other problem.
[12:29] <russss> and all these wifi transceivers need a bidirectional link to work of course.
[12:29] <arjunnaha> Yes, I did worry about that
[12:29] <arjunnaha> That the signal was strong enough one way but not strong enough to go the other way
[12:30] <russss> the limiting factor is likely how high the payload's receiver noise floor is given that everyone and their dog is using things in this band on the ground
[12:30] <russss> (and on 5GHz you may also have weather radar to contend with)
[12:32] <arjunnaha> Would that be mitigated in the slightest by launching in a more rural area?
[12:32] <russss> (I just realised there are clearly a non-zero amount of dogs using 2.4GHz wifi)
[12:33] <russss> arjunnaha: the question is what the payload can see. It's going to receive everything which is within its line-of-sight.
[12:33] <Darkside> russss: bahahaha
[12:33] <Darkside> SSID: Woof.
[12:34] <russss> I guess one way to potentially mitigate this is to design the payload antenna with a big null going downwards which is where the strongest signals are coming from.
[12:35] <arjunnaha> Ill have to look into this a lot further, Im by no means an expert and a lot of the terminology is new to me :)
[12:36] <russss> what would likely work better is some kind of unidirectional fast downlink on 5GHz, and a slow, interference-resistant uplink on the usual channels
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[12:38] <arjunnaha> Would you be able to do that with WiFi or would another protocol be more suitable?
[12:38] <russss> you'd have to do your own protocol.
[12:39] <arjunnaha> Im not sure what the Ubiquiti gear even uses to communicate
[12:39] <russss> tis all WiFi
[12:39] <arjunnaha> Ah
[12:39] <russss> except I think their AirFiber which is proprietary and also *way* too heavy to stick on a balloon ;)
[12:40] <arjunnaha> Thats all the carrier grade stuff isnt it?
[12:40] <arjunnaha> I think even of the AirMax stuff, only the NanoStation is light enough to fly with other equipment
[12:40] <russss> yeah, well, depends who you ask. I love the Ubiquiti stuff, it's super good value for money.
[12:41] <arjunnaha> About 200g if I remember right?
[12:41] <arjunnaha> Ive got all the UniFi stuff at home, absolute dream to work with. It just works :)
[12:42] <arjunnaha> And theyre quite PR focused, Im sure they would be very interested
[12:42] <russss> these are also ~200g, without antenna. Could potentially be stripped down a bit. https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/bulletm/
[12:43] <arjunnaha> Oh nice, I didnt even see that before
[12:43] <arjunnaha> What type of antenna design would I be looking to use on the payload?
[12:43] <craag> Note that you can't transmit from a dish on the ground without winding down the power, due to the limit being on EIRP.
[12:44] <Darkside> so the cases of wifi-to-balloon that i know if, it was done under amateur licenses, and they used max power
[12:44] <Darkside> well and truly exceeding the EIRP limits
[12:44] <arjunnaha> Itll will have to be a downlink on the Ubiquiti and an uplink via LoRa
[12:44] <russss> huh of course, you could use the amateur allocation for the uplink.
[12:45] <Darkside> arjunnaha: the wifi link wouldnt work without the other direction working
[12:45] <Darkside> hrm not sure about sending traffic via UDP mind you
[12:45] <arjunnaha> TCP for sure
[12:45] <Darkside> but im not sure what the 802.11 layer would do
[12:45] <russss> still needs bidirectional traffic to associate.
[12:45] <Darkside> arjunnaha: no
[12:45] <Darkside> TCP would need a stable connection in both directions
[12:45] <craag> https://befinitiv.wordpress.com/wifibroadcast-analog-like-transmission-of-live-video-data/
[12:45] <arjunnaha> Oh, would it need something custom then?
[12:46] <Darkside> at least UDP means the ground-end isn't trying to send an ACK back on every packet
[12:46] <russss> yeah your main issue is with 802.11 here. Even if you could get it to work, it would affect your reliability
[12:46] <arjunnaha> Oh that looks interesting
[12:46] <Darkside> craag: oh thats cool
[12:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TT7L - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TT7L
[12:46] <russss> you want the payload to fire-and-forget and then you potentially request rebroadcast if necessary
[12:47] <Darkside> arjunnaha: noting that wouldn't work with any of the ubiquiti gear
[12:47] <arjunnaha> I think for video, it probably wouldnt even matter. Once the frames gone, its gone
[12:53] <Darkside> tbh im thinking if youwant live video, something like sending DVB-S2 would be more reliable
[12:53] <Darkside> i sure craag knows about that :P
[12:53] <Darkside> not sure how the link budgets work
[12:53] <russss> so I think if you have an intermediate or full UK amateur radio license you're theoretically good up to 50W or 400W transmit power on some of the 5GHz wifi channels...
[12:53] <Darkside> but you can't use that airborne
[12:54] <Darkside> so...
[12:54] <russss> yeah but the main link budget issue is on the uplink
[12:55] <russss> and you could use a big antenna on the ground without worrying about EIRP limits.
[12:55] <craag> Personally I don't think uplink is technically legal either. But I do see that from an RF/interference point of view it's no different than talking to another legal station.
[12:56] <russss> meh, don't get me started about how unclear the radio license terms are
[12:56] <craag> :D
[12:57] <craag> If you're just wanting live video then you don't need uplink, just use something like that wifibroadcast
[12:57] <Darkside> craag: hmm now i'm wondering about a DVB-S balloon payload
[12:58] <craag> omni on the payload, big dish on the ground to receiving wifi card, 434MHz for tracking.
[12:58] <craag> need to point the dish, which gets harder as the dish gets bigger (more gain, smaller beamwidth)
[12:58] <arjunnaha> Sounds like a plan! Wifibroadcast looks good, as I just need live video
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[13:00] <russss> you'd almost certainly want to automate the dish pointing
[13:00] <arjunnaha> That sound like another project
[13:00] <Darkside> depends how much money you have
[13:01] <arjunnaha> But sounds like you could take the GPS data from LoRa/RTTY and have it automated
[13:01] <russss> yep
[13:01] <Darkside> you can buy a rotator suitable to point a reasonable size dish off the shelf for ~700 euro
[13:01] <russss> there's quite a lot of prior art on DIYing the hardware https://satnogs.org/documentation/projects/
[13:01] <Darkside> and software to point it using data from habitat already exists
[13:01] <Darkside> (i wrote some)
[13:01] <arjunnaha> How much money, roughly, are we talking?
[13:01] <arjunnaha> Ah, sorry, didnt see your previous message
[13:02] <Darkside> the satnogs design is not strong enough to handle a bigger dish
[13:02] <Darkside> http://www.rfhamdesign.com/products/spx-light-antenna-rotator/spx-01-az--el/index.php
[13:02] <Darkside> this would probably handle a 1m mesh dish
[13:02] <russss> yeah true
[13:02] <Darkside> you'll not the picture right at the bottm of that page
[13:02] <Darkside> note*
[13:03] <Darkside> that picture was taken by me whe i was out portable a few weeks ago :P
[13:03] <russss> you could probably sling together something DIY cheaper if you had access to some metalworking kit. Also, eBay.
[13:03] <arjunnaha> Ah nice :)
[13:04] <Darkside> but yes, the steps there would be to figure out what size antenna you need, and then from that figure out what size rotator you need
[13:04] <Darkside> and then either buy or build
[13:04] <arjunnaha> Ive got a whole metalworking shop at school
[13:04] <russss> that bit at least is not rocket science
[13:04] <arjunnaha> Probably buying sounds more reliable and a bit less hassle
[13:05] <Darkside> if you have the money to spend on it, for sure
[13:05] <Darkside> and pretty much all rotator controllers are supported by hamlib
[13:05] <Darkside> and my code will pull data off habitat and drive a rotator via hamlib
[13:06] <Darkside> (or pstRotator if you prefer)
[13:06] <Darkside> i'm sure there's other code out there to do similar too
[13:07] <arjunnaha> Oh nice, at least that bit seems established
[13:09] <Darkside> its not a particularly difficult problem to solve
[13:09] <Darkside> get latest position from habitat (or other source) -> calculate relative az/el -> send command to hamlib
[13:12] <arjunnaha> Sorry, was just moving between classes
[13:14] <arjunnaha> What brands/models would be suitable for the ground dish?
[13:18] <Darkside> figure out what size dish you need and then ask that question
[13:18] <arjunnaha> Righto! Off to do some research :)
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[13:28] <mfa298> arjunnaha: only scanned the scrollback but for the 5GHz wifi band you need to be aware that it's split into three parts, at least one is indoor use only and one of them (a different one, which is also the higher power part) requires a license from ofcom and (I think) registration of the devices and locations.
[13:29] <mfa298> you might also need to check the ISM regs carefully as I think wifi on 5GHz mandates DFS to mitigate interferrence with radar (which might just cause an airborne node to shutdown as it might not find a free channel).
[13:29] <arjunnaha> Ah, okay. I was looking at the Ofcom website earlier, and it was...fun...to find what I was looking for
[13:30] <arjunnaha> I'll have to go through the regs with a fine-toothed comb to make sure I'm all within the rules
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[13:37] <mfa298> looking at some of the stuff about wifi might also help, I think solwise had a reasonable summary of what's allowed where.
[13:39] <arjunnaha> Just looking at their website. They've got a whole learning centre! Should be a good read to get a gist on things
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[14:02] <russss> yeah the bits over 5.7GHz are indoor-only (I think that's where most of the weather radar is)
[14:02] <russss> to avoid this happening https://twitter.com/stevebiddle/status/822190488505589760
[14:07] <russss> ah actually
[14:07] <russss> there is an issue here. I don't think any of the 5GHz band is license-exempt for airborne yse.
[14:07] <russss> use*
[14:08] <arjunnaha> Ill have to apply for a license in that case then
[14:09] <arjunnaha> I was having a look at the innovation and research licenses earlier, they might be suitable
[14:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N0MPM-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N0MPM-11
[14:09] <mfa298> The Band C license won't help much 'In the UK, the high band, 5725-5850 MHz (Band C), is a licensed band which can only be used for the Installation of Fixed Wireless Access (FWA) services between stationary points.'
[14:10] <russss> it's IR2030/8 in here https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/84970/ir-2030-july-2017.pdf
[14:10] <mfa298> Band A was the indoor only bit. (this is reading from https://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-5.htm)
[14:11] <russss> yeah, U-NII-2C is allowed outdoors with up to 1W EIRP, but "Aeronautical mobile use is not permitted."
[14:12] <arjunnaha> So Ill potentially have to get a bespoke research license approved
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[14:12] <arjunnaha> Which I have doubts I will be approved
[14:12] <russss> all these bands are a bit of a mess. The wikipedia list is...OK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels#5_GHz_(802.11a/h/j/n/ac/ax)
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[14:13] <russss> arjunnaha: yeah I'd say that's unlikely (although I'm not aware of anyone who's actually asked ofcom tbh...)
[14:13] <russss> the 2.4GHz band is allowed airborne
[14:13] <arjunnaha> Is it exempt for airborne use?
[14:13] <russss> yes
[14:13] <russss> that's IR2030/7/1
[14:14] <arjunnaha> Ah, that could be an option then
[14:14] <russss> (this document lists all the license-exempt radio frequencies - infuriatingly not in frequency order https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/84970/ir-2030-july-2017.pdf)
[14:14] <mfa298> there is an allowance at 5.7GHz under shortrange but that's a measily 25mW - so you'de probably be better with the existing 434 and 868 systems.
[14:15] <arjunnaha> Ah nice, the FAT is a bit confusing
[14:15] <russss> the FAT also doesn't have those license-exempt allocations in
[14:15] <arjunnaha> It lists lots of regs that all conflict with each other
[14:23] <mfa298> I'm not sure things necesarily conflict, but there are often different ways you can use the same frequency, eg. higher power but occasionally or lower power but continuous. Both are different ways to try and minimise interferrence.
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[14:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ice_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ice_chase
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[15:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SSTAR0226 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SSTAR0226
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[15:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRF-6 after 038 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRF-6
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[17:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3630086 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3630086
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[18:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2110067 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2110067
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[19:03] <M0NBA> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8W-auqg024 it's Steve
[19:04] <chris_99> haha
[19:04] <chris_99> don't have sound atm alas, hope it was still warm after its journey ;)
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[19:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KG5IFR after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5IFR
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[19:24] <mfa298> wooo, and early mention that it's not gone into space (only about 1/3 of the way)
[19:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KN4CZZ - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KN4CZZ
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[19:48] <M0NBA> mfa298 The title does say 'edge of space'
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[19:54] <mfa298> M0NBA: it was more the fact he says early on that its not space (as so many others try to claim) and explains why its not space near the beginning I liked.
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[20:08] <daveake> nice video. I especially like the closing box :)
[20:10] Jim__ (cc7473aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.116.115.170) joined #highaltitude.
[20:11] <Jim__> I am trying to request that my flight document be approved. It is called Viking HAB Test Flight and is scheduled for 24 April at 1530z.
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[20:17] <craag> Jim__: Post the flight doc id (long string) in #habhub and ask there.
[20:18] <Jim__> Thanks!
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[20:56] <M0NBA> mfa298: true true, wouldn't want to overstate it's capabilities. Hopefully the garlic bread wasn't poisened by some neo panspermia alien life.
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[21:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE0MNY - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE0MNY
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[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3730135 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3730135
[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3630089 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3630089
[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4640315 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4640315
[23:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3640267 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3640267
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[23:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_P0520549 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_P0520549
[23:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2440742 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2440742
[23:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03TT7L after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TT7L
[23:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[00:00] --- Tue Apr 24 2018