highaltitude.log.20180403

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[00:12] <Ian_> Hi drohan, I don't think that there would really be much in it and unfortunately those that make and sell these antennas all have marketing departments, which would make even Pinochio blush :)
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[00:12] <drohan> Fair enough
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[00:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N0320175 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N0320175
[00:15] <Ian_> Give it a few years and you will probably find that you have a collection of the things kicking about as you buy a new one every time you misplace the last.
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[00:17] <drohan> The new antenna isn't for me though, for a friend :)
[00:18] <drohan> I think I'll roll with the high gain one and then perhaps we can compare
[00:18] <drohan> If there's even a noticeable difference at all
[00:20] <Ian_> Probably the best idea if there are two of you, that way you get to gain first hand experience and maybe get to swap antennas to verify the results are more to do with the antennas than the receivers in your vehicles.
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[04:22] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[05:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4640297 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4640297
[06:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4820009 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4820009
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[06:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS13 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS13
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[08:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03QB765_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=QB765_chase
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[09:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3S23 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3S23
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[09:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4620160 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4620160
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[10:32] <hyde00001> so...
[10:35] <fsphil> indeed
[10:35] <hyde00001> I'm designing my next HAB payload box - can anyone gently remind me about antenna design... I've used 1/4 wave length for 434 before. But do the groundplane wires also have to be 1/4 wavelength or can they be any length? (Or perhaps any length greater than 1/4 wave)
[10:36] <fsphil> any length greater than
[10:36] <fsphil> tbh I've made them slightly smaller too and there was no noticable effect
[10:36] <hyde00001> that make sense - and is the answer I wanted...
[10:38] <fsphil> just do a range test to make sure though
[10:39] <hyde00001> I've wrapped mine around the payload box before rather than making them horizontal. This clearly works but do you know if there is a db penalty?
[10:40] <craag> hyde00001: a photo might clear things up, but putting tucking them up on the payload box edges has worked well for me.
[10:41] <hyde00001> I've wondered in the past how to design a meaningful range test on the ground... Hang payload in a tree? Out of upper floor window? The drive away with radio as if chasing?
[10:41] <craag> The theoretically ideal angle is 120deg or so from the vertical antenna element, so it's a good approximation :)
[10:42] <craag> Yeah stick it anywhere you can get to with reasonable line-of-sight, such as tree on a hill or upstairs window
[10:42] <craag> drive >2km (more is better) away from it, see if you can still pick it up
[10:43] <hyde00001> Oooh - so wrapping around the box might actually be better than horizontal then...?
[10:43] <craag> heh maybe, but it won't make any noticable difference to be honest :)
[10:44] <craag> the box swinging around causes far more fluctuation than anything but the worst antennas, and the link budget of rtty is such that it copes
[10:47] <fsphil> it can be handy to have a local mountain or big hill for range tests
[10:48] <fsphil> I'm fortunate to have a 10km path I can test over
[10:48] <craag> ideally move your house to the top of it ;)
[10:49] <hyde00001> I'll work on that!
[10:50] <hyde00001> where i work is essentially on top of biggest hill around, so might be able to leave hanging out of a window...
[10:58] <russss> apparently the spacex fairing recovery parafoils are made by http://www.mmist.ca/ - hadn't seen them before
[11:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9HFJ-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9HFJ-11
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[11:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N0810317 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N0810317
[11:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2610543 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2610543
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[11:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2340303 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2340303
[11:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2010240 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2010240
[11:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N1253049 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N1253049
[11:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4810426 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4810426
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[12:10] <hyde00001> russss - interesting... The Sherpa looks exactly what daveake has been talking about doing with a HAB...
[12:12] <daveake> I should get my arse into gear
[12:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N0320177 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N0320177
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[13:02] <hyde00001> daveake - once you have nailed RTLS you could make your project more SpaceX like by having your HAB guide itself to the nearest lake and land on top of a remote controlled boat... can't be too much more difficult ;-)
[13:03] <daveake> Hehe, don't give me ideas :p
[13:03] <fsphil> SpaceAKE
[13:07] <cm13g09> daveake: But.... it'd be so cool :)
[13:12] <daveake> Yeah, would need something better than GPS for the landing
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[13:13] <craag> I was looking at rtk gps the other day, wondered if we could set up a ukhas base station network and correct in habitat in realtime :P
[13:15] <hyde00001> Or.... maybe Elon would lend you Mr Steven... Pretty big target to hit then... https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/02/spacexs-mr-steven-fsv-fairing-catcher/
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[13:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PILOTS-GR after 0311 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PILOTS-GR
[13:22] <cm13g09> craag: lol
[13:23] <craag> I'll note it down for habitat 3.0 ;)
[13:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4620143 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4620143
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[13:51] <g8fjg> craag hyde00001 just been reading the back log re 1/4wave and the radials
[13:52] <g8fjg> last year I used my VNA to test radials @0 deg and 45deg
[13:52] <g8fjg> for what its worth the following smith charts show what happens
[13:53] <g8fjg> in the real world I have no idea how it effects the polar plot , but the 45deg results are quite good
[13:54] <g8fjg> implementing it under a pay load might be a nightmare :-)
[13:54] <g8fjg> https://i.imgur.com/Vx8guBA.png
[13:55] <g8fjg> https://i.imgur.com/Y2gIJdR.png
[13:57] <hyde00001> Pretty pictures - and they also made that whooshing sound I hear when complicated things go over my head...
[13:58] <craag> under an industry-standard tracker enclosure: https://www.flickr.com/photos/104821768@N06/14347740987/in/album-72157645014547298/
[13:58] <hyde00001> can you explain... more... for the uninitiated?
[13:59] <g8fjg> sorry ...look at point 2 on the scans...
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[14:00] <g8fjg> set to 434.5....on the 0 deg radial pretty picture the antenna presents 22ohms to the transmitter and a high swr ...2:1
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[14:01] <craag> hyde00001: Look at the red line, at the '2' marker, in relation to '<Ref 3 1' on the right axis.
[14:02] <craag> First image is pretty much spot on.
[14:02] <g8fjg> on the 45 deg set radials its 50ohm and swr 1;1 ... a perfect match... all your 10mw gets to the people
[14:02] <craag> Anyway, this is way more analysis than is really needed, just following the guides will do you well :)
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[14:03] <g8fjg> just saying
[14:03] <hyde00001> I'm going to have to take your (wise) words for that...
[14:04] <craag> your range test will be the proof. feel free to post photos too for further validation, but they're no substitute for actually checking that range..
[14:04] <g8fjg> craag yep first scan is spot on...
[14:05] <g8fjg> just seen the industry standard enclosure :-)) perfect for 45deg radials
[14:06] <hyde00001> I'm currently reading "Development of a replication-competent lentivirus assay for dendritic cell-targeting lentiviral vectors" and was thinking it was quite complicated... Though I can at least describe each of the axes on all of the graphs...
[14:06] <hyde00001> unlike on those two lovely pictures...
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[14:07] <g8fjg> everyone to their own...must have done 30,000 scans ....you tend to read them like the written word..... after the first 1000 or so
[14:08] <hyde00001> Is there a primer on such graphs you could point me at?
[14:08] <craag> hyde00001: There's actually 2 graphs overlaid here
[14:08] <craag> the purple-pink trace and circular background is a smith chart
[14:10] <hyde00001> I get two of the three Y axes - db, ohms...the third I'm strufggling with...
[14:10] <g8fjg> the round bit is smith...the square overlay is the purple line mathed?? out for real people
[14:10] <hyde00001> reads Wikipedia for hints... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_chart
[14:10] <craag> SWR is the ratio of impedance magnitude to 50ohms, against frequency on bottom axis
[14:11] <craag> impedance is complex (x+yi), 'Real Z' is the real component, again against freq
[14:12] <g8fjg> the red line just shows how close to "prefection" all your hard work turned out
[14:12] <craag> 'dB' is the ratio of power reflected from the antenna back towards the transmitter, against frequency
[14:12] <hyde00001> Oooh. That really was helpful.
[14:12] <russss> hah
[14:12] <craag> ie. -52dB is really good, -10dB not so much.
[14:12] <russss> when a smith chart isn't confusing enough
[14:12] <russss> why not overlay a return loss graph on top
[14:12] <g8fjg> good old wikipedia
[14:12] <hyde00001> (worried that might have sounded sarcastic when was being truthful..
[14:13] <craag> the blue trace russss ?
[14:13] <russss> honestly whoever thought that was a good idea
[14:13] <craag> Honestly the blue trace is the easiest to understand here, against freqency on bottom axis, lower is better :)
[14:13] <g8fjg> blue line ...return loss ... more negative the better
[14:13] <hyde00001> Ive always struggled with SWR. But seeing it on the graphs is a bit of a revelation for me. Splendid.
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[14:14] <russss> realistically if you're just looking at how an antenna performs, 90% of the time you only need to look at the return loss
[14:15] <g8fjg> Think I may have muddied the water a ....bit ...45 is best.... I'll put my coat back on
[14:15] <craag> g8fjg: More axis labels, less axis types per chart next time ;)
[14:16] <g8fjg> long live vectors
[14:16] <hyde00001> crucially I'm taking from this excellent learning opportunity that (1) I can make groundplane wires any length I want over 1/4 wave and (2) bending them back over the "sides" of my payload box isn't a bad thing at all...
[14:17] <g8fjg> some times I have up to 10 lines ....just makes it quicker adjust the beast
[14:17] <craag> eh yes but more than 1/4 wave won't really get you anything, so it's a good length to aim for :)
[14:17] <craag> 2) you're correct :)
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[14:19] <hyde00001> Previously I was fussing with their length and they ended up being "in the way" of other things - having latitude to extend them would actually help me.
[14:19] <g8fjg> hyde00001... nearly ..best stick to 164mm bend them down relative to driven 1/4 wave
[14:19] <craag> lesson 3) never ask rf engineers how to make the best antenna.
[14:19] <g8fjg> can get abit ocd... being polite there
[14:20] <craag> It's a bit like this :) https://xkcd.com/309/
[14:20] <mfa298> hyde00001: to add extra confusion, you don't necessarily have to have 4 ground plane wires - but that't probably the best number of aim for (more won't gain you much, 3 might work instead 2 probably won't be that good), and similarly with 4 if they don't come out at exactly 90degrees to each other don't worry too mcuh.
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[14:23] <hyde00001> Amusingly, I'm currently asking my team of molecular biologists how to make the best RCL assay (the subject of the paper I blathered about earlier). It provokes a similar plethora of orthogonal ideas...
[14:23] <g8fjg> going now ...Sheldon Cooper fun with vnwa scans
[14:23] <hyde00001> So much better than flags
[14:24] <g8fjg> love xkcd its the real world
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[15:12] <cm13g09> $client just discovered that cheap chinese 240V-USB adaptors have interesting properties....
[15:12] <cm13g09> (one just exploded in their office!)
[15:13] <fsphil> safety feature, it was protecting the device
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[15:14] <cm13g09> fsphil: heh
[15:15] <fsphil> I've never had one explode, usually it's just weird voltages or totally dead
[15:15] <fsphil> or weird noises
[15:16] <mfa298> you would hope it's done to protect the device.
[15:16] <mfa298> aparently some cheap such things aren't too good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwqFkelUs_g
[15:16] <fsphil> was there bits left on the socket, live?
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[15:19] <Alf_> Not sure how to get my sent into space black box to work
[15:21] <cm13g09> fsphil: thankfully no.... but it blew the USB cable clean out of it....
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[16:59] <Mike-SA6BSS> cm13g09: all my chinese chargers jamed the whole hf freqincies to s9+ so tossed them all!!
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[17:05] <fsphil> same with CFL bulbs here. ended up dumping them all
[17:06] <fsphil> I think they put out more RF than light
[17:07] <craag> it's all illumination, you just need better low-freq response on those eyes of yours.
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[17:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N1033653 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N1033653
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[17:56] <PE2BZ> Good evening. Would anyone know how I could get the tracker to show an old flight from one of my pe2bz trackers ?
[17:59] <mfa298> I think you can stick the flightdoc id into the search box (maybe)
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[18:03] <PE2BZ> mfa298 you have an excellent memory :-)
[18:03] <Ian_> Best to let them be checked by Big Clive first :) although he does have some eclectic items . . . :)
[18:04] <Ian_> The USB stuff not the search boxes
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[18:05] <mfa298> PE2BZ: usually only for random facts that aren't often of much use
[18:05] <PE2BZ> I just received a phone call from Namur that she found an rtty transmitter with my name on it :-)
[18:05] <PE2BZ> https://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=8&mc=50.63754,4.38365&f=ef1f/PE2BZ&q=8d278942125194eba4771deb8141ef1f
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[18:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RCMGB_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RCMGB_chase
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[18:42] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PHILIS after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PHILIS
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[18:49] <Ian_> That has to be a win, experiencing the Upu effect . . . just can't lose them at all. :)
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[20:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GKCCANX - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GKCCANX
[20:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[20:37] number10 (6d9d6c03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.157.108.3) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[20:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 030380_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=0380_chase
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[21:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ2DMX - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ2DMX
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[22:07] Nick change: jarod2 -> jarod
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[23:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N2340641 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N2340641
[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_M4853197 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_M4853197
[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N1950098 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N1950098
[23:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N3640543 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N3640543
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[23:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N0750651 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N0750651
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[23:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N1253011 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N1253011
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[23:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RS_N4810490 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RS_N4810490
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 4 2018