highaltitude.log.20180225

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[01:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4820808 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4820808
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[05:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M4433134 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M4433134
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[06:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0300000000 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=00000000
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[07:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03FOOL1 after 038 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=FOOL1
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[08:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EA2DVJ-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EA2DVJ-11
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[10:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3S22 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3S22
[11:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9HFJ-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9HFJ-11
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[11:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M4543339 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M4543339
[11:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M4433150 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M4433150
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[11:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UT3UKP_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UT3UKP_chase
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[12:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4250744 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4250744
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[13:23] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HAB2-T after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HAB2-T
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[15:07] <fsphil> https://ssdv.habhub.org/AQUILA
[15:07] <fsphil> woo, range test working well
[15:07] <fsphil> well, some dropped packets but not bad for a first go over 10km
[15:07] <fsphil> this is with 10kbit/s wenet
[15:07] <craag> :D
[15:09] <chris_99> cool :) wenet == https://github.com/projecthorus/wenet ?
[15:09] <fsphil> yeah. though I've modified it to run a bit slower
[15:10] <fsphil> to make it work a bit better within ISM rules
[15:10] <chris_99> 10kbps seems pretty high still, that's cool you can get that kind of data rate, is it possible to get that with straight FSK too?
[15:10] <fsphil> that's basically what this is
[15:10] <chris_99> oh i thought it was using LoRa
[15:10] <fsphil> 10kbit/s fsk with LDPC error correction
[15:10] <fsphil> nah
[15:11] <chris_99> ah cool
[15:11] <fsphil> this is all open and (somewhat) documented
[15:11] <chris_99> nice
[15:12] <fsphil> it's still going to be a challange over longer ranges
[15:13] <fsphil> I doubt my x-50 will be getting 600km range with this
[15:13] <fsphil> but I'll be using rtty alongside it
[15:18] <fsphil> ah, bumped up the gain on the rtlsdr at home and it's working better
[15:18] <fsphil> no packet loss at all
[15:20] <dbrooke> nice, handy to have a nearby hill
[15:21] <fsphil> yeah!
[15:21] <fsphil> though it's freezing today
[15:24] <dbrooke> almost 2 fpm 8-)
[15:29] <fsphil> lol
[15:30] <fsphil> "vide"
[15:30] <fsphil> er
[15:30] <fsphil> "video"
[15:30] <fsphil> https://i.imgur.com/EpbOgFO.png
[15:42] <dbrooke> are the images assembled external to the server and then sent in one burst?
[15:47] <fsphil> they are in this version
[15:48] <fsphil> I'll probably change it so that it buffers any packets for up to 5 seconds
[15:48] <fsphil> then send them in a batch
[15:48] <fsphil> rather than per-image which it seems to do now
[15:50] <dbrooke> it would be a more pleasing visual effect to see it build up but I wasn't sure if the FEC method allowed it
[15:50] <fsphil> indeed
[15:50] <fsphil> esp. for larger images
[15:51] <fsphil> right, getting very cold here. heading back down
[15:53] <dbrooke> hadn't realised you were still up there ...
[15:57] <Ian_> Braver than me, for sure . . . Brrrr :)
[16:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-15 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-15
[16:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-11
[16:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-1
[16:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE0SS-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE0SS-12
[16:10] Nick change: gonzo__ -> gonzo_
[16:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M4433165 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M4433165
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[16:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BALTS1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BALTS1
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[16:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03C0D-1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=C0D-1
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[18:00] <chris_99> what influences the maximum data rate out of curiosity, is it mainly a factor of carrier frequency?
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[18:28] <fsphil> your curiosity, or the mars rover? :)
[18:29] <fsphil> the faster it is the less the range or the more power and/or gain required
[18:30] <daveake> and faster requires more bandwidth
[18:30] <chris_99> heh, my curiousity. i'm rather confused, about symbol rate and bandwidth, as say with 2-fsk, isn't the bandwidth defined by the spacing of the two frequencies? so is the bandwidth you'd see on an FFT output, the same regardless of the symbol rate?
[18:30] <daveake> and everything is limited :/
[18:31] <adamgreig> chris_99: switching between the two frequencies takes bandwidth beyond just the separation of the two frequencies
[18:31] <chris_99> ohhh
[18:31] <adamgreig> for a simpler model, consider cw (or 1fsk if you like)
[18:31] <chris_99> i didn't realise that
[18:31] <adamgreig> turning a carrier on/off a million times a second needs bandwidth beyond the zero bandwidth of the carrier itself
[18:32] <adamgreig> same deal with 2fsk, you have two carriers being turned on/off and that on/off edge needs bandwidth
[18:33] <chris_99> hmm, so you mean, on the FFT you'd actually notice the signal get 'wider' if you increase the symbol rate
[18:33] <adamgreig> yes precisely
[18:33] <adamgreig> if it was just constantly on you'd see a single peak that was very narrow
[18:34] <adamgreig> but if you started modulating that carrier on/off, you'd see it turn into a wider shape
[18:34] <chris_99> ah cool
[18:35] <adamgreig> the bandwidth required actually depends on how quickly you turn on/off (or how quickly you change between the two frequencies etc)
[18:35] <adamgreig> if you change very quickly you'll use huge amounts of bandwidth
[18:36] <chris_99> ah gotcha, and that also depends on the modulation scheme used too?
[18:36] <adamgreig> so we filter the change to make it so it takes about one symbol period to change - so 100kb/s would be filtered so it takes about 1/100000=10┬Ás to transition
[18:36] <adamgreig> yea sure, though regardless of scheme we generally filter the transition between states
[18:36] <adamgreig> so that you go as slow as you can and still keep up
[18:36] <adamgreig> as that's what sets the data bandwidth
[18:38] <chris_99> sorry i'm not quite sure what you mean by 'filter the change', does that just mean limiting the symbol rate?
[18:39] <fsphil> random thought, it would quire an infinite amount of bandwidth to change a carrier level immediately
[18:39] <adamgreig> sorry
[18:39] <adamgreig> if you look at the fft over time, the carrier changes between the two fsk tones, for instance
[18:39] <adamgreig> it could jump between those two frequencies immediately, like a square wave
[18:39] <adamgreig> or it could slew between them slowly, like a triangle wave
[18:39] <adamgreig> the bandwidth requirement is inversely proportional to the time taken to change between the two frequencies
[18:40] <adamgreig> so if it changes very quickly between two frequencies, the bandwidth requirement is huge
[18:40] <adamgreig> if you think of that "demanded frequency" as an analogue signal coming out of the computer, it will just be some square wave, being fed in to an FSK modulator or something
[18:40] <adamgreig> if you put a low-pass filter before the FSK modulator, it would smooth out that square wave, so that the transition is slower, and thus takes less bandwidth
[18:41] <chris_99> ooh interesting!
[18:41] <adamgreig> (in reality you would likely do that smoothing on the computer anyway, but in the bad old days i'm told they would've had real filters :P)
[18:41] <adamgreig> but that's why we call it filtering, you can consider it as filtering the square wave that's what we wanted the frequencies to be (just based on the bits being transmitted), and the smooth version you want on the air, to limit bandwidth occupied
[18:42] <chris_99> gotcha, thanks for explaining that, makes a lot of sense now
[18:42] <adamgreig> cool
[18:43] <chris_99> i just ordered an SDR, so i'll definitely have to experimentally
[18:43] <adamgreig> if you are ever looking at a signal out of your own thing on an FFT, try changing the data rate with the same tone spacing and see the difference
[18:43] <chris_99> play with that
[18:43] <adamgreig> cool
[18:43] <adamgreig> yea definitely
[18:43] <adamgreig> note that this is also why you need at least the data rate worth of separation between the two tones
[18:44] <chris_99> ah, i never knew that either
[18:44] <adamgreig> each tone being turned on/off at, say, 100Hz requires 100Hz of bandwidth, 50Hz on each side, so if you had two tones that were less than 100Hz apart, they'd overlap
[18:45] <adamgreig> again we usually give a bit more slack than that to make the receiver's time easier (and reduce how well we need to filter the transitions) so HABs might be 500Hz apart for 50bd data, etc
[18:45] <chris_99> ah gotcha
[18:45] <adamgreig> (and there's a sneaky factor of 2 floating around because 100 bits/second is at worst a 50Hz square wave.. details)
[18:47] <chris_99> one silly question relating to SDRs, if it's full duplex, i can just use a single SDR, to transmit from one antenna to the other right?
[18:47] <chris_99> to test this kind of thing
[18:49] <adamgreig> yep you can
[18:49] <chris_99> awesome
[18:49] <adamgreig> don't plug a cable directly between them without carefully checking it's ok, as the tx power might well be more than the rx can handle
[18:49] <chris_99> oh yeah i ordered two antennas
[18:49] <adamgreig> but if you have e.g. two antennas, or to be honest nothing at all, etc, it should be fine
[18:49] <chris_99> cool
[18:49] <adamgreig> the other option for direct testing like that is an attenuator you can stick between them
[18:50] <chris_99> ah interesting
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[19:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03THEGOLDENPANTHE - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=THEGOLDENPANTHE
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[23:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M4533586 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M4533586
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[23:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N2010081 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N2010081
[23:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N1710182 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N1710182
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[23:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M4433182 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M4433182
[23:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N1650356 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N1650356
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[23:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[23:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4630075 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4630075
[00:00] --- Mon Feb 26 2018