highaltitude.log.20171129

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[00:30] <Laurenceb_> !whereis HIRFW-6
[00:30] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb_: 03HIRFW-6 was over 03Dyurtyulinsky District, Republic of Bashkortostan, Russia 10(55.48107,54.96215) at 0311999 meters about 0314 hours ago
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[01:43] <Bob_ZL1RS> ulfr^ HF is not so unreliable ... http://www.qsl.net/zl1rs/oceanfloater.html
[01:47] <Bob_ZL1RS> but sat com is the better way ... http://www.seacharger.com/
[01:55] <DL7AD1> ulfr^ fsphil: wooo hooo ! :D
[02:20] <ulfr^> heh
[02:20] <ulfr^> Bob_ZL1RS: thanks
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[02:39] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KG5IFR after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5IFR
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[06:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRF-6 after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRF-6
[06:39] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[06:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZL1AB1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZL1AB1
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[07:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03NEPTUN-4 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NEPTUN-4
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[07:52] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[08:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZL1AB0 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZL1AB0
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[10:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[10:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VA2RMG-11 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VA2RMG-11
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[11:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YMMLSONDE after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YMMLSONDE
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[11:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YPADSONDE after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YPADSONDE
[11:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NEPWUN-4 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NEPWUN-4
[11:32] <michal_f> !flights
[11:32] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: There are no flights currently :(
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[11:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[12:19] <Laurenceb> !whereis HIRFW-6
[12:19] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb: 03HIRFW-6 was over 03Nurimanovsky District, Republic of Bashkortostan, Russia 10(55.48107,56.96215) at 0311999 meters about 032 hours ago
[12:20] <fsphil> sheesh, still going
[13:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03L_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=L_chase
[13:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JOAL03 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JOAL03
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[13:46] <David-SM0ULC> amazing
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[14:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0303414070_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=03414070_chase
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[15:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5KMP-8 after 0316 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5KMP-8
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[15:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03car_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=car_chase
[16:01] <Laurenceb> https://www.eastcoastbund.org/
[16:02] <Laurenceb> everything about this :P
[16:02] <Laurenceb> >National Rubbish Processing Centre
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[16:14] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KG5IFR after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5IFR
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[16:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03B-26 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=B-26
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[16:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DK0LG - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DK0LG
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[17:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BB01 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BB01
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[20:01] <spaceman> I bought an NTX2B but did not specify a frequency, does it have to be 434.075Mhz or 434.650Mhz to work, mine is 434.200Mhz?
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[20:02] <Ian_> Where did you buy from - Upu ? And was if NTZ2B-FA?
[20:03] <spaceman> Yes Uputronics, and yes 2B-FA
[20:04] <spaceman> sorry it was NTX2B-FA
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[20:05] <mfa298> it's the original NTX2 that was fixed on .075 or .650, the 2B-FA comes with a random default frequency (although you might be able to ask for somethign specific)
[20:05] <Ian_> Good, so you can specify your own 434MHz frequency
[20:05] <Ian_> https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=60
[20:06] <Ian_> Upu came to our rescue about three years ago with the FA option.
[20:06] <mfa298> you should also be able to program the frequency if you wnt something different (but it's often seen as good to stay away from .650 and .075 as neither were that ideal)
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[20:07] <spaceman> brilliant thanks for that, I'll probably just keep it at 434.200 and tune into that
[20:08] <Ian_> Also consider 12.5kHz channelisation for PE2BZ and friends in the Netherlands as they have a lot of interference from crane activities on the standard 25kHz channels. They provide some useful tracking manpower as a rule. :)
[20:09] <mfa298> depending on where you are in the world some people have found it beneficial to set the frequency up or down by 12.5khz (so it's not on a 25khz multiple)
[20:09] <mfa298> or what he said ^^^
[20:09] <Ian_> Great minds of course!
[20:10] <Ian_> With the low hanging fruit, it's how fast you can type that wins the race :)
[20:10] <spaceman> haha thanks guys, I'm in the UK. I'm just starting my first HAB project and it seems a lot of the info online is a bit dated
[20:11] <Ian_> Go back four years and more and there was a lot less of it.
[20:12] <spaceman> Fair enough, I'll be grateful ;)
[20:12] <mfa298> if there's pages on the ukhas.org.uk wiki that are out of date you could try posting the links here and someone might update them
[20:13] <Ian_> It's a wonderful community and a few key people drive it forward and bring the technology to the rest of us. Then there are the unsung mfa298s who are a constant source of support, Adam who seems to be constantly on call on #habhub and others that fix what they make or broke earlier :)
[20:13] <mfa298> (or get a wiki account and fix yourself when you know the answers)
[20:14] <Ian_> You wouldn't be the first that thought about indexing them more logically, but the community ain't gonna hold it's breath that long . . .
[20:15] <mfa298> ... oh I've given up on the thought of ever seeign a well organised wiki, but at least making sure the content is current should be possible
[20:16] <Ian_> Daveake and others have brought us LoRa, which makes for a much cheaper entry level receiver solution, along with Dongle, and other, SDR solutions for standard RTTY. It's a real smorgasboard out there, enjoy as you dine at the horn of plenty!
[20:16] <Ian_> That's a +1 mfa298
[20:19] <spaceman> Yes it seems like a large and helpful community. One question while we're here, if I buy a RTL2832U R820T SDR e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-DVB-T-DAB-FM-Radio-Realtek-RTL2832U-R820T-software-defined-SDR-HDTV-/382265038218 it comes with an antenna. Would this work or would I need a different antenna?
[20:19] <Ian_> Best to use a separate antenna.
[20:20] <spaceman> Ok I thought so cheers
[20:20] <Ian_> For mobile work a 70cm magmount for a vehicle is good. For home/static use a Diamond X50 is the standard antenna to use.
[20:21] <mfa298> ideally you want an antenna designed for the band your receiving. The things Ian_ said are good, or you could try making a slightly more sturdy version of the payload antenna on the wiki for the ground station
[20:22] <mfa298> Its well worth trying to track other peoples flights as well to see how well your setup works and get used to the software
[20:22] <Ian_> Watson and others also make the same sort of Colinear antenna. The price varies with manufacturer for comparable antennas. Gain and size tend to be related of course.
[20:24] <Ian_> They tend to be dual band 2m/70cm (amateur bands 145MHz/434MHz). I use a Watson W300 for amateur radio and am very happy with it.
[20:24] <spaceman> Right, I'll probably want one to use on a vehicle when tracking my flight. Are you saying that I need a separate antenna for testing at home? And yes I have seen others practising by tracking other flights
[20:25] <mfa298> for testing on the bench you could use the one the dongle comes with or the magmount (or possibly no antenna on the dongle to reduce the signal strength)
[20:26] <mfa298> magmount might work for trackign other flights but they normally want to be on a metal surface.
[20:26] <Ian_> A 1/4 wave ground plane (same as the payload) is indeed a very good option. Make it slightly (somewhat) more rugged so that you can leave it outside and what it loses in basic gain, can pretty much be compensated for by lofting it up a few metres higher into the air and in the clear away from buildings.
[20:27] <Ian_> It is also a very cheap option when compared to a commercially bought Colinear.
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[20:29] <Ian_> For 434MHz on the top of a 20ft to 30ft fibreglass perch pole, with RG58 coax being fed up the centre is a totally economical, if non-permanent, solution.
[20:29] <SIbot2> In real units: 20 ft = 6.10 m
[20:29] <Ian_> 30ft
[20:29] <SIbot2> In real units: 30 ft = 9.14 m
[20:29] <Ian_> Thank you SIbot :)
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[20:30] <spaceman> Ah I see, thanks. So would the magmount be on top of the car while driving?
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[20:31] <Ian_> Radials can be made from a steel tape measure bought at the likes of PoundLand . . .
[20:31] <spaceman> Is this perch pole solution for static use? I understand it as creating the same 1/4 wave ground plane on the payload and as a ground station
[20:31] <Ian_> Yes.
[20:32] <Ian_> Yes to that question as well
[20:34] <Ian_> The radiation pattern of a 1/4 wave groundplane antenna is at a slightly higher angle than of a Colinear - think shallow cone, so the package is radiating downwards and the ground station radiation (reception) pattern is upwards. Ideal unless the package is directly overhead, when the MkI eyeballs might be useful :)
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[20:34] <spaceman> Nice, I think for reliability I will buy an antenna for testing and tracking, and make the ground plane antenna for the payload. I am trying to keep costs down also.
[20:34] <Ian_> Less useful when you are sat at a desk perhaps (eyeballs).
[20:35] <spaceman> Is this a suitable one? https://www.hamradio.co.uk/aerials-antenna-manufacturers-diamond-antennas/diamond/diamond-mr-77-pd-2566.php
[20:35] <spaceman> I have not come across MkI eyeballs I'll look into it thanks
[20:36] <Ian_> :)
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[20:38] <Ian_> That's not a bad magmount. Most 2m (145MHz) magmounts are good for 434MHz as the relationship is x3 (3rd harmonic)
[20:39] <mfa298> some people have tried the wsm270 which is fairly small and cheap as a magmout (and apparently survives motorway driving)
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[20:41] <spaceman> Aha that's good to know
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[20:44] <Ian_> For extremely low cost, with a base station, your antenna can essentially be made from a square bulkhead mounting N-type SO239 (socket for PL259 plug), a steel tape measure, four M3 nuts and bolts. And not a lot else. So under £7 and if it doesn't work as well as you feel it should, then you won't have lost much and learned a little. A Colinear will require 2" aluminium poles to stick it into the air, so that's not necessarily g
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[20:45] <Ian_> A telescopic fibreglass perch pole on the other hand should cost somewhere between £20 - £30.
[20:46] <Ian_> A slightly cheaper option is likely to be http://farnham-sdr.com/
[20:47] <mfa298> I've got an antenna I use sometiems made with a bit of wooden dowel from B&Q/Wickes and off cuts from twin+earth for the element/radials, another one is made from 34mm pipe and threaded rod.
[20:47] <Ian_> <end of advice bulletin>
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[20:48] <Ian_> I bet that compares well with your bayed and stacked beast :)
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[20:53] <spaceman> Ian, what did you mean by that website, is it just an alternative to downloading the software?
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[20:55] <spaceman> Do you recommend making a base station as well as having a car magmount
[20:55] <Ian_> It's an online SDR receiver which means that, in this case Craag (on here) and his mates provide the antennas and the receivers, which incidentally are slightly modifided SDR dongles.
[20:57] <Ian_> Most people will at some point want a base station receive facility. For chasing the car, a magmount and a friend to help is good.
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[21:00] <mfa298> if you want to track other peoples flights a base setup is likely to be easiest, although you can always try out with a magmount or home brew antenna first and see how it does
[21:00] <spaceman> Oh cool, so I would only need a payload antenna, which transmits position to the online Craag's receivers and shows me the location on the website.
[21:00] <mfa298> try something see how it works, then upgrade
[21:00] <Ian_> There are other online SDR receivers around the country and elsewhere, but not all of them are necessarily as well appointed as the SUWS one in terms of frequency bands available or antenna height etc.
[21:01] <spaceman> Yeah I'll give it a go mfa298
[21:01] <Ian_> Bear in mind that the SUWS receiver is located in Southampton however so may or may not be appropriate.
[21:02] <Ian_> Lots of options . . . decisions, decisions. Don't forget to keep some money for beer!
[21:02] <mfa298> the farnham sdr won't help for testing your own payload (unless you live very close to it) but it's certainly a way to see how other receivers work
[21:02] <spaceman> Right, what is the range then?
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[21:03] <Darkside> do not launch without your own working receiver.
[21:03] <Darkside> period.
[21:03] <spaceman> I have a upu preamp. I think this connects to the magmount the laptop but not sure how
[21:03] <Darkside> relying on the UKHAS network, as good as it may be, is never good idea
[21:03] <spaceman> Yes ok that seems sensible
[21:04] <Ian_> On the ground the range of an NTX2B tx is likely to be << 1km. At altitude the range is likely to be >> 50km. Also heed Darkside's sage advice.
[21:05] <Ian_> Antenna, preamp, main feeder, receiver.
[21:07] <Darkside> you *need* a receiver in your chase car if you want to have a chance of getting the landing location
[21:07] <Darkside> or at least tracking it low enough to be able to get close enough to hear it on the ground
[21:07] <mfa298> range is partly dependant on the transmitter altitude, the higher it is the longer the range - it's mostly down to line of sight.
[21:07] <Darkside> the higher in altitude the last received position, the larger the search area
[21:07] <spaceman> Oh so when the payload lands you have to be within about a km to be able to find it?
[21:07] <Ian_> The preamp is best in a loft perhaps or a wx proof box on the mast. The loft is an accessible, dry place for a base station.
[21:08] <Darkside> not necessarily
[21:08] <Darkside> spaceman: the idea is to get a position report as close to landing as possible
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[21:08] <spaceman> Ok
[21:08] <spaceman> And what would the main feeder and receiver be?
[21:09] <spaceman> so the preamp would not be used for the magmount
[21:09] <Ian_> Sometimes (always) being on high ground overlooking the landing site to hopefully receive the package on the ground is second best to being able to see it come down in a field very close to you.
[21:09] <Darkside> the preamp *probably* isnt necessary in a mobile RX situation
[21:09] <Darkside> but it shouldn't hurt
[21:10] <Darkside> if you're a mobile RX, you're likely to be closer to th epayload than most other receivers, so you may not need the extra gain
[21:10] <Ian_> With a magmount, the fact that the preamp has a filter is a big advantage and will prevent broadcast stations, for example, desensitising the receiver.
[21:10] <spaceman> and I've also seen the use of yagi antennas,would one be good
[21:10] <Darkside> hm thats a point
[21:10] <Darkside> a yagi antenna is good if you're a long way away from the payload when it lands
[21:11] <spaceman> Nice, I guess it wouldn't hurt to have one then
[21:11] <Darkside> it is also possible to use direction finding techniques to locate the payload with a yagi, however this is probably getting a bit too complicated for a first flight
[21:11] <Darkside> your aim should be to follow the payload as well as you can
[21:11] <Ian_> Shortish yagi as it has to be manageable.
[21:11] <Darkside> and try and be close to the landing area when it lands
[21:11] <Darkside> easier said than done mind you
[21:11] <mfa298> if you do a good job a yagi mgiht not be necessary, however it becomes very useful if there's a problem (weak signal from the payload, gps stops giving positions etc)
[21:12] <Ian_> So much to take in eh?
[21:12] <spaceman> Ok, maybe it would be good to do a flight path prediction and have someone waiting near the landing site from the start
[21:12] <Darkside> if its a long way away, tht is a good idea yes
[21:13] <Darkside> we have had to do that a few times
[21:13] <Darkside> i guess use google maps and get a travel time estimate, and compare that to the flight time
[21:13] <mfa298> spaceman: you might be able to find people locally that can help out either on the day or with equipment - both people in this community and local amateur radio clubs
[21:13] <spaceman> yeah a lot! I don't have much experience with electronics so it might take me a while. Yes I just want to make sure I recover the payload
[21:15] <Ian_> The best idea is probably to consider making your own and tracking other flights to get the hang of it in the interim.
[21:15] <spaceman> Good idea, this community (cleary) is so helpful, and I'll contact the local club
[21:15] <Darkside> tracking other flights is a good idea
[21:15] <Darkside> that gets you experience in running the decoding stuff
[21:16] <Ian_> Don't be totally surprised if the local amateur radio club seems a little clueless when it comes to HAB tracking. You might like to do a bit of reading so that you can explain it in simple terms . . . some may be stuck in a DF/foxhunting mentality :)
[21:17] <spaceman> Ok I'll start with that
[21:18] <spaceman> Ahh ok, this is the best place to be then :)
[21:19] <Darkside> DF/foxhunting is a good solution when everything goes to crap, and i usually have DF capability as a last-resort backup
[21:19] <Darkside> however if you build and test your tracker well, you should not need to go to those lengths
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[21:20] <spaceman> Ian going back to something you said before, what would the steel tape measure be used for, what would go in the plug
[21:23] <Ian_> Plug on the end of the RG58 cable, the antenna comprises the socket, with the radials bolted on (paint abraded off at contact point) the four screw mounting holes and a stiff copper wire soldered into the spiggot of the socket.
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[21:27] <spaceman> Thank you, I'm sure I'll fully understand it after a bit of research :)
[21:27] <spaceman> Thank you so much for your help everyone
[21:28] <spaceman> I'm sure to be back with more questions in the future
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[21:38] <PE2BZ> Ian_ thanks for keeping the Dutch listeners in mind. I will read up the rest of the story tomorrow :-)
[21:39] <Ian_> You've probably read it all before a few times by now. :)
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[23:08] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[23:17] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong (pm?)
[23:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YMMLSONDE after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YMMLSONDE
[23:20] <cm13g09> mfa298: -> PM
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[23:39] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[23:39] <Darkside> hrm, the YPAD sonde is very late
[23:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YPADSONDE after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YPADSONDE
[23:49] <Darkside> there we go
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[00:00] --- Thu Nov 30 2017