highaltitude.log.20170922

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[03:51] <drohan> Hey guys, quick question -- I've been looking at different radio frequencies for balloon transmissions. Excluding licensing (Needing HAM radio or something like), what are the pros & cons for using 434 MHz vs 868 or 900 MHz?
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[04:20] <SpeedEvil> drohan: 434 will have slightly (marginally) better transmission through trees and such for SAR, otherwise, it depends on local noise sources
[04:21] <SpeedEvil> For example, in many countries, good luck hearing something on the mobile phone bands at 400km with 10mW, when you've got a hundred watts a mile away
[04:22] <drohan> That's fair
[04:22] <drohan> But for the most part they should be fairly interchangeable?
[04:22] <drohan> I'm leaning towards the 434MHz module right now I think
[04:24] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[04:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DL7AD-12 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL7AD-12
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[04:59] <drohan> Good to know, thank you SpeedEvil
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[08:25] <userscott2> PITS question for any sportsfans online? :)
[08:28] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BARC1 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC1
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[08:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VGER1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VGER1
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[08:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GAME - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GAME
[08:42] <pb0ahx> GM all
[08:42] <pb0ahx> !flights
[08:42] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03Dixon259 10(4a3c), 03Dixon260 10(8e62), 03DELTA-2 10(c92e), 03SP9UOB-P30 144.251 MHz CTSTIA 10(cbd2)
[08:50] <pb0ahx> !dial 4a3c
[08:51] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Latest dials for 03SITS2 10(4a3c): none
[09:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SR5DRK - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SR5DRK
[09:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SR4NWQ - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SR4NWQ
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[09:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CT2JVS - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CT2JVS
[09:36] <pb0ahx> BARC1 on the rong frequentie for me lot off local qrm
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[10:04] <gonzo_> what is the BARC1 freq?
[10:04] <gonzo_> !dial BARC1
[10:04] <SpacenearUS> 03gonzo_: Latest dials for 03BARC1 10(8e62): 03434.65 MHz, 434.1496 MHz, 434.1509 MHz, 434.15074 MHz
[10:05] <gonzo_> well that is useful!
[10:06] <fsphil> lucky dip
[10:06] <cm13g09> gonzo_: So... anywhere then :P
[10:06] <gonzo_> think I can see it at .150, but far too weak to be of any use
[10:07] <gonzo_> really must put more gain in the system
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[10:09] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03Infinity2 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Infinity2
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[10:20] <userscott2> Don't suppose anybody knows if a Habduino/PITS has to be mounted in any particular orientation?
[10:22] <fsphil> nope. only thing that might matter is the position of the gps antenna
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[10:28] <daveake> Which is separate on PITS
[10:29] <daveake> Separate on both I think
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[10:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SR5NOS - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SR5NOS
[10:46] <userscott2> Thanks Dave, yes indeed she's seperate.
[10:47] <userscott2> I met a chap last night at the Derby Makers meet whom has done three launches and is working with you on one coming up in early October. He persuaded me to switch to add Lora to my PITS and build a tracker as per your project - so I've ordered everything today and pressing ahead with it... :)
[10:48] <userscott2> In terms of antenna, I note that Upu sells https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=63&product_id=86 but I think a chap on here last night worked out that a 1/2 wave antenna with 8.6 cm tail on it would be suitable for 915. If that's the case - where is that stubby intended to be used?
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[10:51] <userscott2> I suspect I may just use 434 Mhz LoRa in the USA rather than 915, and then adjust the PITS to only transmit every ten seconds which would circumvent their law on continuous transmission on 434 mhz.
[10:54] <gonzo_> that would be a 1/4 wavelength
[10:54] <gonzo_> and closer to 8cm
[10:55] <fsphil> most US flights use APRS on 144mhz
[10:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 030797037001_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=0797037001_chase
[10:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DELTA-2 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DELTA-2
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[11:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
[11:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EALCAMP - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EALCAMP
[11:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YPADSONDE after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YPADSONDE
[11:31] <PE2BZ> thasti Good afternoon, is your paylod going to glide from a balloon launch ?
[11:31] <thasti> yup PE2BZ
[11:32] <PE2BZ> https://imgur.com/a/IcWkf
[11:32] <PE2BZ> It looks great !
[11:32] <PE2BZ> At what height should it go down ?
[11:32] <thasti> 5..6km is our plan
[11:34] <PE2BZ> Look forward to see it on the map :-)
[11:34] <thasti> us too :p
[11:34] <PE2BZ> Good luck !
[11:35] <thasti> we're still hoping for wheater to permit a launch
[11:35] <thasti> weather*
[11:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[11:49] <PE2BZ> !dial delta-2
[11:49] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Latest dials for 03DELTA-2 10(c92e): 03434.3 MHz, 434.65 MHz, 434.19299 MHz, 434.19398 MHz
[11:50] <PE2BZ> the last 2 frequencies are right. The first 2 not
[11:55] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SITS2 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SITS2
[11:58] <fsphil> DL7AD: a lot more cloud today!
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[12:07] <userscott2> fsphil, we are just using RTTY and hopefully, LoRa!
[12:08] <userscott2> Both at 434 - I didn't add a 915 mhz board as I didn't realise you could have two and I think that Uputronics have dispatched without (possibly) seeing my email request to add the extra modules on! But nothing lost if not :)
[12:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VGER - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VGER
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[12:24] <PE2BZ> fsphil someone should use that cloud to store images or so....
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[12:42] <chrisg7ogx> good afternoon all what is the frequency for Infinity 2 please?
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[12:43] <daveake> Dunno. That looks like a test.
[12:44] <daveake> ie. no announcement no notam wet prediction
[12:51] <chrisg7ogx> ok daveake thanks..I'm living in Cornwall now..nice coverage of school balloon launch on the local TV waste of a pasty though!
[12:54] <daveake> There was a sent-into-(near)space one in Cornwall earlier this week
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[12:58] <chrisg7ogx> that's the one i think sent a pasty into space!
[12:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ2ODE_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ2ODE_chase
[13:01] <DiscoDave> SITS2 is stuck in a tree :(
[13:02] <PE2BZ> Thats sad :-(
[13:07] <fsphil> pie and all?
[13:13] <Ian_> Cornish pastie, beans, gravy and chilli sauce . . . slurp!
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[13:18] <thasti> hmh, anyone know a balloon burst calculator for very small/light balloons?
[13:18] <thasti> i have a 25g latex envelope (nominal diameter 90cm) and want to try some lift/ascent rate configurations
[13:19] <PE2BZ> do you have 1 or more ? I flew a 90 cm latex balloon but had tested the burst diameter with air pressure and it bursted at 92 cm.
[13:19] <thasti> just tested one, it had like 120x90 just before burst
[13:21] <thasti> payload is ~20g, we are just thinking about how much lift to give it
[13:21] <PE2BZ> what would you like for ascent speed ?
[13:22] <thasti> 5m/s +- 1m/s would be perfect
[13:22] <thasti> or rather 5..7m/s
[13:32] <PE2BZ> and do you need a burst at 7 km or do you have a release mechanism ?
[13:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3B-9 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3B-9
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[13:36] <Laurenceb_> !whereis DL7AD-12
[13:36] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb_: 03DL7AD-12 is over 03Baltic Sea 10(55.33368,16.07228) at 0311630 meters
[13:36] <Laurenceb_> !whereis HIRFW-6
[13:36] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb_: 03HIRFW-6 is over 03North Atlantic Ocean 10(31.68941,-60.87119) at 0313776 meters
[13:41] <thasti> PE2BZ: we have a release mechanism
[13:42] <PE2BZ> So if the burst is at 6 km or more you are OK
[13:43] <thasti> that's the idea, yep
[13:43] <thasti> how much lift would you suggest?
[13:44] <PE2BZ> common for 5 m/s it´s recommended to have a free lift of 1.5 times the payload weight.
[13:45] <thasti> so something like 30g?
[13:45] <PE2BZ> parachute and rope weight is included in the 20 g ?
[13:45] <thasti> yes
[13:47] <PE2BZ> then I would go for 30 gram lift
[13:47] <thasti> okay, will do
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[13:48] <PE2BZ> How do you measure the lift ?
[13:48] <thasti> either using a scale (might be a problem with wind), otherwise balloon diameter
[13:49] <PE2BZ> Does the balloon have a small neck ? So you don´t need to use a fill tube ?
[13:49] <thasti> no, its a bigger one
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[13:52] <thasti> why?
[13:53] <PE2BZ> For my 180 gram flight I needed 280 gram lift, and the fill tube was 275 gram. So we choose to fill until the fill tube lifted freely.
[13:53] <PE2BZ> For my 80 gram we needed 120 gram lift. Impossible to do with a 275 gram fill tube.
[13:53] <thasti> yea
[13:53] <PE2BZ> So I made a fill tube with hose clamps to a total of 120 gram
[13:57] <thasti> I will prepare something like that, thinking of something like this and a 50g-weight https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/kx4AAOSwB-1YyDw8/s-l225.jpg
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[14:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OM5KV_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OM5KV_chase
[14:07] <thasti> PE2BZ: just for clarification, with the 20g payload attached the balloon should still measure 30g lift, right? i.e. 50g measurable lift on just the balloon without payload?
[14:17] <PE2BZ> No !
[14:18] <PE2BZ> the balloon should have 30 gram lift. Then, with the 20 g payload attached you have the 1.5 times the payload weight
[14:19] <PE2BZ> with 50 gram lift you would go 10 - 12 m/s
[14:25] <thasti> ah okay
[14:26] <thasti> not very much...
[14:26] <PE2BZ> So, if you can fill the balloon, close it with a temporary clip, tie it to a bottle which weighs 30 gram and see if it floats
[14:26] <thasti> okay, understood
[14:27] <PE2BZ> that would be the most ideal solution.
[14:27] <PE2BZ> Need a tiny bottle however ;-)
[14:29] <thasti> 30g weight prepared
[14:30] <thasti> are you sure this 1.5x rule holds up for very light payloads?
[14:32] <PE2BZ> No. Never flew payloads below 80 grams so far. But it is a rule for 5 m/s and I can not find a reason why it would be different for different payload weight.
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[14:32] <PE2BZ> But let´s ask the community :-)
[14:33] <PE2BZ> Community ? What do you think ?
[14:33] <thasti> :-)
[14:33] <PE2BZ> I learned all my lessons over here, predictions, calculators and so on
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[14:35] <thasti> http://community.balloonchallenge.org/t/mathematical-calculation-for-helium-amount/197 - (regarding the 1.5x rule) "For example using it for a very light payload on a large balloon will give virtually no ascent rate."
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[14:35] <PE2BZ> dl7ad in ?
[14:36] <PE2BZ> What did you use for the SSDV floater ?
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[14:36] <thasti> using the calc from http://randomaerospace.com/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html with Hwoyee HY-30 makes it 190g neck lift
[14:37] <PE2BZ> What is your balloon weight ?
[14:37] <PE2BZ> Is that also 30 grams ?
[14:38] <thasti> 25
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[14:39] <PE2BZ> I forgot to add the balloon weight....
[14:42] <PE2BZ> But still 190 gram is much more as I expected. My first flight was with 3ft party balloons, filled to 45 cm and indeed ascent rate was lower as expected.
[14:42] <SIbot> In real units: 3 ft = 0.91 m
[14:44] <thasti> seems the community is afk today
[14:44] <PE2BZ> but for the Hwoyee 30 gram with 1.10 m burst diameter the calculator also gets a neck lift of 182 gram
[14:45] <PE2BZ> Can you fill and fly a bottle ?
[14:46] <thasti> to measure the ascent speed before launching the actual payload?
[14:46] <PE2BZ> Makes no sense. Need to add a tracker to measure the ascent speed and a rope would not work....
[14:46] <thasti> yeah
[14:46] <PE2BZ> That was what I had in mind indeed.
[14:47] <thasti> okay, it gives 90g lift for 4m/s and 180g for 5m/s
[14:47] <PE2BZ> But that would mean that with 30 gram neck lift it would not float
[14:47] <thasti> i think i will go somewhere in between, maybe 110 or something
[14:47] <thasti> make myself a 110g weight for float-checking
[14:48] <PE2BZ> Than you would rise with 4 - 5 m/s and that would be ok :-)
[14:49] <PE2BZ> But one remark, with Totex TA30 AND 5 m/s the burst will be at 4000 meter !
[14:50] <thasti> burst diameter is lower for totex, thats why we did the burst test
[14:52] <thasti> we'll just try it out, it's a test after all :P
[14:53] <PE2BZ> :-)
[14:55] <Laurenceb_> impressive images from DL7AD-12
[14:56] <Laurenceb_> looks quite stable, but there is some slow rotation
[14:57] <PE2BZ> thasti you are not on the calendar ?
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[15:00] <thasti> should be, registered the payload and flight docs today morning
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[15:02] <Ian_> It takes time to get on the calendar, depending on when Google does the updating, maybe a couple of times a day, from what I have read in the past. Community begins the great return to the keyboards . . .
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[15:09] <PE2BZ> Can you give your flight name ? I can find the payload doc for info :-)
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[15:15] <thasti> GAME PE2BZ
[15:15] <PE2BZ> tnx
[15:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DF3EY - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DF3EY
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[15:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PA1ALV_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PA1ALV_chase
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[16:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SSTAR0165 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SSTAR0165
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[16:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VGER2 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VGER2
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[17:13] <DL7AD> PE2BZ: now
[17:14] <PE2BZ> tnx. a question: how did you calculate your lift and HE for such a light payload ?
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[17:15] <DL7AD> PE2BZ: you mean my filling technique or the calculation itself?
[17:16] <PE2BZ> Mostly the calculation
[17:16] <DL7AD> I looked it up in the manual of the balloon :D
[17:16] <DL7AD> they they said 8g
[17:17] <DL7AD> so I filled exactly +8g free lift
[17:17] <PE2BZ> Thanks. I don´t know if thasti has the balloon manual by hand ?
[17:18] <PE2BZ> We where trying to calculate for a latex envelope, 5 m/s with 20 g payload. But your balloon did not seem to weigh 25 grams
[17:18] <DL7AD> thasti used Qualatex 36". we used SBS12
[17:19] <DL7AD> thasti used a foil balloon
[17:20] <DL7AD> and the Qualatex 36" weights ~38g
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[17:22] <PE2BZ> The calculator came with a neck lift of 3.5 times the payload weight for 5 m/s which I thought was odd because I mostly (4 flights sofar) end up by 1.5 times the payload weight.
[17:23] <PE2BZ> But I use 200 gram Hwoyee, so the question was if the 1.5 rule was true for (very) light flights also. That was when you came in to my mind :-)
[17:23] <DL7AD> sounds reasonable if you say that you have a 25g payload
[17:24] <PE2BZ> Thanks for your input !
[17:24] <DL7AD> hm I have never done any Latex floaters. but I can say that 200g is unlikely to float. but I think someone has done it with a 100g balloon before too. but i would rather say that you should fill a less helium as possible
[17:24] <DL7AD> lets say +20g
[17:25] <DL7AD> daveake should know it better. he has done latex floaters
[17:25] <PE2BZ> He does not need to float. He wants to release a glider at (about ?) 6 km height, ascend with 5 m/s but no burst before the release. And the burst diameter of his envelope was not given.
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[17:28] <DL7AD> PE2BZ: I think he could reach about 20km easily
[17:29] <DL7AD> PE2BZ: about 2 years ago, I sent up a 150g payload with a 100g totex to 23km
[17:29] <PE2BZ> Then all should end OK :-)
[17:29] <DL7AD> for sure
[17:30] <PE2BZ> Did not want to have him set up with wrong info, so I was looking for ¨more input¨ (sounds like Johnny Number 5 now...)
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[17:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[17:59] <daveake> Re that glider, a Hwoyee or Totex 100g will get it up to 20km at least, so plenty high enough for his purposes
[17:59] <daveake> As for floaters, I'm planning a floating network ... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKV-U9WW4AA3wwb.jpg:large
[17:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VEGA2 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VEGA2
[18:01] <daveake> That's a Pi SSDV tracker plus 2 AVR trackers that repeat it Pi --> AVR --> AVR --> ground if necessary
[18:08] <drohan> Do people often put transceivers on HABs?
[18:08] <drohan> I noticed Radiometrix has a few modules
[18:09] <drohan> Ah wait, gotta brb to class :( I'll be back later
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[18:09] <Mike-SA6BSS> new ballons arrived today, wil lbe interesting to see how they perform
[18:09] <Mike-SA6BSS> https://imgur.com/88jU3Ql
[18:10] <Mike-SA6BSS> 88cm across and 36 grams, $1.50 each
[18:11] <bertrik> nice folds .... :| or doesn't that really matter ?
[18:12] <Mike-SA6BSS> I put them under pressure and pre streach thme before launch to see the hold air
[18:13] <Mike-SA6BSS> the qualtex usuly looks the same when you get the in the mail
[18:13] <bertrik> oh ok
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[18:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Balloon_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Balloon_chase
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[19:09] <Laurenceb_> !whereis HIRFW-6
[19:09] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb_: 03HIRFW-6 is over 03North Atlantic Ocean 10(29.48107,-59.03785) at 0312999 meters
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[20:34] <DL7AD> Laurenceb: We will launch another balloon tomorrow at 6000-0700z here in berlin.
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[20:36] <DL7AD> Laurenceb: But that will be a solar heated one.
[20:37] <DL7AD> DL7AD-13 will be the call.
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[21:33] <drohan> Haha alright cool I'll re ask now that I'm here
[21:33] <drohan> Do people ever put transceivers or receivers on HABs?
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[21:34] <bertrik> radio amateurs in the netherlands launch a balloon once a year with a transponder on board
[21:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yes, mainly tend to be LoRa setups
[21:34] <bertrik> 2m uplink and 70cm downlink IIRC
[21:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> as the chip is a transceiver!
[21:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> If you look at daveake blog ou will see details for te Pi In the Sky setup which includes repeating
[21:37] <daveake> Yeah, and I'm not alone (not quite!) ... uplinks or balloon to balloon
[21:38] <daveake> I made some avr repeaters today to repeat ssdv from a pi, all using tdm
[21:39] <drohan> Ahh that's awesome
[21:39] <drohan> I've been thinking about trying it sometime
[21:40] <drohan> As well as working on trying to prototype my own kind of PITS/Habduino equivalent board as a side project / learning experience
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[22:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SR0FLY-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SR0FLY-11
[22:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DC2EH-14 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-14
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[23:04] <userscott2> Evening'
[23:06] <userscott2> Whipped up a new payload for next launch. Just over an hour and everythings covered in silver foil..!
[23:06] <userscott2> https://imgur.com/DYAKQqV
[23:06] <userscott2> https://imgur.com/aIhu6xL
[23:07] <userscott2> Let's hope I get to see them again after!
[23:12] <bertrik> what silver foil do you mean? the shiny tape at the bottom?
[23:13] <bertrik> is that to create a better ground plane for the antenna?
[23:14] <userscott2> That was my intention, I read it in a few places so thought I'd gamble
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[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YPADSONDE after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YPADSONDE
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[23:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[23:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Johnny _chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Johnny%20_chase
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[00:00] --- Sat Sep 23 2017