highaltitude.log.20170807

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[00:12] <hx1> Can a radio guru please explain how in this video APRS packets are transmitted properly with such a silly antenna (obviously not proper length)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh2dYZHYrDw
[00:14] <hx1> I am in the process of building my tracker and would like to test my code but do not want to fry my hx1 by not using a proper antenna
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[00:44] <hx1> Is using a whip antenna a bad idea?
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[01:14] <Ian_> hx1 No. a 1/4 wavelength artificial groundplane whip is the preferred antenna type for use on a HAB payload.
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[01:17] <Ian_> In use it is mounted on the bottom of the payload and it's radiation pattern projects the signal in a cone below the payload at an angle of around +/-45 to 60 degrees. It's ideal.
[01:18] <Ian_> For testing you may be advised to remove the antenna from your receiver and or increasing the physical separation between tx and rx, in order to prevent rx overload.
[01:18] <Ian_> !wiki antenna
[01:18] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: Found 035 results for you query - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/start?do=search&id=antenna
[01:19] <Ian_> Have a look at the first one on that list - https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[01:20] <Ian_> Time for bed here.
[01:24] <hx1> Interesting tutorial
[01:25] <hx1> Honestly not sure how sensitive these antennas are but seems like a pretty DIY method, any way to check if it's the correct lengths? (SWR meter, etc)
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[05:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hundai 120_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hundai%20120_chase
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[07:53] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: you about?
[07:53] <AndyEsser> or anyone with knowledge of Sky Q
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[08:27] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/2Q02e5J.jpg
[08:31] <AndyEsser> fsphil: should've seen that coming....
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[09:10] <AndyEsser> daveake: if I wanted to set up a lora wan RX station at home - what do I need?
[09:10] <AndyEsser> or rather, do you have a good link I can read to avoid asking you lots of questions
[09:10] <AndyEsser> s/lora wan/lora
[09:11] <daveake> I know little about lorawan ... you can do a single-channel one with a Pi or Arduino + LoRa module, but it gets more complicated if you want to do it properly
[09:12] <daveake> I've not made one yet so that's pretty much the sum of my knowledge :)
[09:12] <AndyEsser> sorry I meant Lora (for HAB) rather than lorawan
[09:12] <daveake> OK in that case all you need is a Pi + one of Upu's LoRa boards
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[09:13] <AndyEsser> ok cheers - what about antennas?
[09:13] <daveake> http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1719
[09:13] <daveake> Same as for RTTY or anything else
[09:14] <AndyEsser> ok, so I could mount my X50 as usual, and change it between going into my airspy or something for RTTY or into the Pi for lora
[09:14] <AndyEsser> cheers
[09:14] <AndyEsser> is the correct term for this a Lora Gateway?
[09:14] <AndyEsser> nvm just loaded your blog page...
[09:14] <daveake> Sure, or use a splitter if you're never going to Tx
[09:15] Nick change: kokey_ -> kokey
[09:15] <AndyEsser> yea, I don't tx from home - although might change that
[09:15] <daveake> AOne option is to put the Pi up near the antenna, so you don't need a long length of coax
[09:15] <AndyEsser> but will change make sure to change my wiring in that case
[09:15] <AndyEsser> Yep - little waterproof box with the pi in I guess
[09:15] <AndyEsser> cheers
[09:15] <AndyEsser> need to find a way to mount my antenna on the new house now
[09:16] <AndyEsser> although the garage has the internal roof support structure exposed I could easily mount antennas in there
[09:16] <AndyEsser> but that doesn't get me great elevation
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[09:19] <daveake> I used a cheap waterproof box to make this https://twitter.com/daveake/status/738787458096234496
[09:20] <AndyEsser> cheers :)
[09:20] <AndyEsser> how long does that battery pack last it?
[09:21] <daveake> Enough, but it's gone anyway - I put a LiPo in there
[09:21] <daveake> Or do PoE
[09:22] <daveake> That one has wifi as you can probably tell
[09:22] <AndyEsser> will put a lora gateway on my list of things to do
[09:22] <AndyEsser> hopefully now that stress of finding a place to live and move should be over
[09:36] <gonzo_> AndyEsser, one of the multi port sma relays at the masthead would work there
[09:37] <gonzo_> put the pi in there too
[09:37] <gonzo_> and a chan with habamp to feed down to the house for other rx's
[09:38] <gonzo_> you could prob even put a straight feed down for tx'ing
[09:38] <gonzo_> those sma relays should be good for 10watts, as ling as the isolation is ok
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[09:44] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: cheers
[09:44] <AndyEsser> once again planning an installation I'm sure will never come to fruition :(
[09:45] <PE2BZ> Someone over here needs therapy :-P
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[10:37] <Ian_> [02:25] <hx1> Honestly not sure how sensitive these antennas are but seems like a pretty DIY method, any way to check if it's the correct lengths? (SWR meter, etc)?
[10:41] <Ian_> hix, if you follow the guide, step 1 and step 7 ensure that the antenna is tuned for the 434MHz frequency band. With the tx at a reasonably great distance, the rx and a pair of ears are a traditional way of ascertaining the efficacy of the antenna.
[10:44] <Ian_> If you build it with the radiating element 20mm longer than stated but clearly mark the correct length ...
[10:46] <Ian_> ... you can set it up, return to the receiver to check the figures, go to the tx, snip off 5mm, back to the rx, check, rinse and repeat until you get to the stated length. It will slowly teach you the technique required.
[10:47] <Ian_> Of course if you decide to cut off a smaller length on each iteration, then the learning curve and amusement here is enhanced.
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[10:49] <Ian_> It will perhaps demonstrate a suitable tuning technique as well as emphasising that when someone else has put in the heavy lifting, then a bit of faith in what they have published and is subject to peer review here is probably good to go without too much walking being involved :)
[10:50] <Ian_> Follow the instructions. make it longer and clip it once for the simple/minimal learning and verification experience.
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[11:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YPADSONDE after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YPADSONDE
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[11:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[13:49] <Laurenceb> !whereis HIRFW-6
[13:49] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb: 03HIRFW-6 was over 03Federated States of Micronesia 10(5.48107,152.96215) at 0313999 meters about 036 hours ago
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[14:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BARC4 after 0311 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC4
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[14:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BARC7 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC7
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[17:00] <antenna-noob> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[17:01] <antenna-noob> In the tutorial the author solders the coax instead of using a proper SMA connector, will this negatively effect the antenna performance?
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[17:04] <antenna-noob> I'm trying to build an antenna now for my HX1, what stores in the USA carry 50ohm coax and SMA connectors?
[17:06] <antenna-noob> How critical is the length of the radials compared to the radiator in a 1/4 wave antenna?
[17:07] <adamgreig> not very make them about the same length
[17:07] <daveake> First off, there is a "proper SMA" on the cable - it's a "pigtail" not a plain piece of coax
[17:08] <daveake> Second, remember that the HX1 operates on a different frequency so you need to make the radiator to a different length
[17:08] <antenna-noob> Yes I've got the length correct daveake
[17:09] <antenna-noob> Please explain your pigtail comment
[17:10] <daveake> A pigtil is a piece of coax with a plug on it (SMA in this case)
[17:10] <antenna-noob> Got it
[17:10] <daveake> The soldering is for the radials
[17:10] <antenna-noob> I was referring to the other end of the aerial where the radials connect, why not use a SO239?
[17:11] <Vaizki> european pigs have SMA connectors on the rear
[17:11] <daveake> Use what you like; the answer will be weight
[17:11] <antenna-noob> I worry your method would effect impedance by not using a connector
[17:11] <daveake> Not my method btw
[17:11] <antenna-noob> Got it
[17:11] <daveake> Personally I generally do put an SMA on there
[17:12] <antenna-noob> Ok I will follow your advice considering I have no way of measuring the antennas properties I want to be as accurate as possible
[17:13] <adamgreig> no issue not putting a connector on the other end except if you wanted to change coax length one day
[17:13] <adamgreig> incidentally i think the standard 164mm for 434mhz might not be a very good choice anyway but will remain quiet until I have something more concrete to say
[17:13] <adamgreig> doesn't matter for you anyway
[17:14] <daveake> Generally I put an SMA socket on the bottom of the payload, and screw on an aerial made from one of these + 5 pieces of wire:
[17:14] <adamgreig> the standard sma-bit of coax-antenna is fine
[17:14] <daveake> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/jqE3uEyM/image.png
[17:14] <adamgreig> yea that's always nice and neat
[17:14] <daveake> Yeah and saves getting poked in the eye a lot when working on the payload :)
[17:14] <adamgreig> we have a few payload boxes that are just made up with antenna installed on the bottom and a coax flex inside with connector on the end
[17:14] <adamgreig> but yea annoying when you wanna put the payload down and it's got a radiator there
[17:14] <antenna-noob> Ah yes, that also would make it much easier to measure the correct lengths by having a connector
[17:14] <daveake> Yup
[17:15] <daveake> Though I do have a plastic table with a large hole cut in it :)
[17:17] <antenna-noob> Question: I'm building my antenna for 144.390mhz to do APRS with the AX.25 protocol, how sensitive is the antenna to length that it will begin to result in packet loss?
[17:17] <antenna-noob> Would a 1200hz tone be heard so differently with an improperly build antenna that an iGate would misinterperate/drop the packet?
[17:18] <antenna-noob> What is the degree of inaccuracy when cutting the radiator? mm's? before things get ugly
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[17:19] <daveake> It won't affect how tones are heard, only the level
[17:19] <gonzo_> -1cm would prob mot be noticeable
[17:19] <gonzo_> + is not an issue
[17:20] <antenna-noob> Thank you
[17:20] <gonzo_> just a min of roughly 1/4 wavelength
[17:23] <antenna-noob> Lastly before I'm off to the store hunting for 50ohm coax; How far generally do you seperate the antenna from the hx1? I've heard that running a hx1 w/o any antenna can cause the rf to fry the device
[17:23] <antenna-noob> That is, how much coax should do I need? :)
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[17:24] <bertrik> adamgreig: I'm curious regarding your comment about 164mm radiator length :)
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[17:25] <adamgreig> i was mucking around with my specan recently and had my "164mm" antenna to hand so plugged it in, it's actually 168mm radiator length, but i measured minimum return loss at 451MHz which would imply it needs to be a bit longer
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[17:25] <antenna-noob> 172.69 mm
[17:26] <adamgreig> but like I said I don't have anything serious to say on the matter
[17:26] <adamgreig> will possibly try with a somewhat more careful geometry and actual vna later
[17:27] <antenna-noob> What c value did you use to compute for length?
[17:27] <antenna-noob> 299 792 458 m/s
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[17:28] <adamgreig> i didn't compute for length, I just aimed for about 164mm and snipped it
[17:28] <adamgreig> it's not exactly narrowband
[17:28] <antenna-noob> Might be in over my head, but are you two squabbling over calculated values or actual
[17:28] <antenna-noob> I see
[17:28] <adamgreig> I mean this was my very dodgy quick test https://goo.gl/photos/dWrBfeqzMcpjNstY8
[17:29] <adamgreig> really I was just playing with the specan, not trying to analyse the antenna
[17:29] <mattbrejza> the ground plane things are supposed to be bent 45 deg for starters
[17:29] <adamgreig> yes
[17:29] <adamgreig> they vaguely were
[17:29] <adamgreig> but let's be real, nobody does that
[17:29] <adamgreig> except people with antennas that shouldn't be legal to fly
[17:30] <mattbrejza> nothing a ping pong ball cant fix https://www.flickr.com/photos/104821768@N06/10573553804/in/album-72157637119605256/
[17:31] <adamgreig> those ground radials will still take your eye out
[17:31] <adamgreig> i recall that antenna and wasn't fond of it at the time lol
[17:31] <adamgreig> in fact it's exactly what was in my head when I said "except people with antennas that shouldn't be legal to fly" :P
[17:31] <adamgreig> was it a cusf antenna even? or was that from suws?
[17:31] <adamgreig> antenna-noob: honestly you'll be fine with your calculated value, don't worry about this
[17:32] <adamgreig> well what frequency are you going for? aprs on 2m?
[17:32] <mattbrejza> i think that was a spare from apex actually
[17:32] <antenna-noob> Thank you
[17:32] <adamgreig> i think you've miscalculated actually
[17:33] <adamgreig> well, 172mm is your suggestion for 434?
[17:33] <adamgreig> presumably you're using something else for your aprs
[17:33] <antenna-noob> I'm not using 434 at all, never mind that comment. For my APRS antenna my radiator is 0.494m
[17:34] <adamgreig> ah good yes
[17:34] <antenna-noob> On the HX1 datahseet theres a pin that says "pull high to enable" is this like push to talk on a walkie?
[17:34] <adamgreig> yea
[17:35] <antenna-noob> Just going to digital write to it before I transmit then turn off
[17:35] <antenna-noob> Also wait a bit because apparently it takes a bit to get to full power
[17:35] <antenna-noob> ~5ms
[17:35] <adamgreig> sure
[17:36] <antenna-noob> This is a pretty bad questions I'm sure I'll get in trouble for asking... Do I really have to use 50ohm coax...?
[17:36] <antenna-noob> I can only find RG6 at my stores
[17:36] <adamgreig> nah 75ohm is alright
[17:36] <adamgreig> 50 would be better but not much
[17:36] <antenna-noob> Cons?
[17:37] <adamgreig> slightly less power out of your antenna in the end
[17:37] <adamgreig> you can read about impedance mismatch for more gory details
[17:37] <adamgreig> if you can only get 75r coax it's better than nothing
[17:37] <antenna-noob> I figured
[17:37] <antenna-noob> Taking a class next semester at uni all about rf
[17:38] <adamgreig> but you can probably mail order 50r pigtails with sma connectors already on them very cheap
[17:38] <adamgreig> they're like £3 in the uk
[17:38] <antenna-noob> Hopefully can change my name from antenna-noob to antenna-pro ;)
[17:38] <adamgreig> so probably not worse than $3
[17:38] <adamgreig> god, my uni class about rf left me with far more questions than before i took it
[17:38] <adamgreig> still get nightmares about contrived smith charts sometimes
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[17:39] <antenna-noob> studying computer engineering in california, they have been great so far overlapping the physics curr w/ engr
[17:39] <antenna-noob> have a primitive understanding still but getting better
[17:39] <adamgreig> sounds good
[17:39] <adamgreig> where in ca?
[17:40] <antenna-noob> santa clara
[17:40] <adamgreig> nice
[17:40] <bertrik> sometimes I still get confused about the whole impedance matching thing, but still managed to get a degree :)
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[17:41] <adamgreig> no thanks to my ability or otherwise to draw curves on smith charts, for sure
[17:42] <adamgreig> anyway i will maybe see about doing a slightly better test of the 164mm antenna on the real vna and see how it looks
[17:42] <adamgreig> be funny if we were all doing it wrong all this time
[17:42] <antenna-noob> adamgreig: You seem like you know what you're on about- will running a whip antenna off a breadboard to test my hx1 be dangerous to components?
[17:43] <antenna-noob> No coax to distance
[17:43] <adamgreig> I make no claims wrt knowing what I'm talking about, but yes that should be safe and probably work ok ish
[17:44] <adamgreig> breadboards have a lot of capacitance though
[17:44] <antenna-noob> I really just want to know if I'm emulating pwm properly
[17:44] <adamgreig> if you can have the antenna pins not in the breadboard and just solder the antenna to them temporarily that would be better
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[17:45] <antenna-noob> Geoff-G8DHE-M led me to believe yesterday even desheilding coax would have such a negative impact on the impedance the antenna would not work
[17:45] <antenna-noob> But now it seems is less important and just reduces strength
[17:45] <adamgreig> don't fly with it
[17:45] <adamgreig> work fine for testing on your bench
[17:45] <antenna-noob> I see
[17:45] <adamgreig> remember your bench is like 1m distance to receive, vs the >100km distance you're aiming for when you fly
[17:46] <antenna-noob> Well see
[17:46] <antenna-noob> Thing is
[17:46] <antenna-noob> This is awkward
[17:46] <antenna-noob> I have no reciever... not even a baufang
[17:46] <adamgreig> your receive is a digigate far waay?
[17:46] <adamgreig> well it might work if you take it outdoors
[17:46] <antenna-noob> I'm testing with a iGate 2mi from me
[17:46] <adamgreig> rf energy falls off with inverse square, as you might know, so even 2miles is a huge lot better than 200
[17:47] <adamgreig> but if it doesn't work on the igate 2mi away, you'll be stuck knowing if it's your poor software or your poor antenna/connection
[17:47] <adamgreig> given how cheap a baofeng is it might be worth ordering one of those sometime if you can
[17:47] <adamgreig> or probably your uni has an amateur radio club?
[17:47] <antenna-noob> right my problem is if it doesnt work I have so many things to check... is my antenna fucked? code fucked? wiring? is the local digipeter on drugs? so many quesitons if it doesnt go smooth
[17:48] <adamgreig> conversely if you can get a baofeng or other cheap radio and plug it into your computer, you can decode aprs on your computer to verify operation
[17:48] <adamgreig> even an rtl-sdr software defined radio would work and are very cheap
[17:48] <antenna-noob> I think thats the next logical step
[17:48] <bertrik> a cheap SDR like the rtl-sdr is a lot of fun and useful for testing your tx too
[17:48] <antenna-noob> Purchase a baufang
[17:48] <antenna-noob> Is it possible to use my raspberry pi on hand as a reciever? Ive seen some gimmicks using a gpio pin to transmit low power squares
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[17:50] <bertrik> the one sold here has a 1 ppm txco, SMA connector and still very inexpensive http://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/
[17:50] <adamgreig> I'd probably get the rtl-sdr before a baofeng unless you're also interested in amateur radio chatting
[17:50] <adamgreig> nice
[17:50] <antenna-noob> no im not so much already too many people to chat with at uni
[17:51] <antenna-noob> its a can of worms best left unopened heh
[17:51] <adamgreig> the rtl-sdr has the added advantage you can use it to receive your own balloon while it's flying even without relying on anyone's igates etc
[17:51] <antenna-noob> do you guys generally track balloons yourself instead of aprs network
[17:52] <antenna-noob> because im thinking about it now, it would be way easier to make my own protocol based on ASFK than figure out all the aPRS semantics
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[17:52] <adamgreig> yea in the uk we cannot fly amateur radio airborne so there's no point using aprs and nobody does
[17:52] <adamgreig> so it's all a custom protocol on 434MHz (you couldn't do that in the us, but you could use 315MHz equivalently, I think)
[17:52] <antenna-noob> and just have a radio and custom modem on the ground able to interperate my own version of asfk
[17:52] <adamgreig> it's all on the wiki
[17:53] <antenna-noob> Ah makes perfect sense
[17:53] <adamgreig> you get more range from just using fsk instead of afsk
[17:53] <adamgreig> can basically just send data out of a serial port
[17:53] <adamgreig> the downside is you will have to do all your own tracking
[17:53] <adamgreig> have a good look through the wiki
[17:53] <antenna-noob> Right
[17:53] <antenna-noob> Considering I bought a hx1 tuned to 144.390 im a bit locked in now ($$$ ) to continue on building an aprs tracket
[17:54] <antenna-noob> But v2 I will take your advise and track my own balloon
[17:54] <adamgreig> do you have an amateur radio license, actually? you have to in order to fly that hx1
[17:54] <adamgreig> at least the basic technician level
[17:54] <antenna-noob> I have the most basic but in california its a bit more restricted so a professor with lots of credentials is supervising
[17:55] <adamgreig> hmm
[17:55] <adamgreig> don't think that's strictly the case
[17:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9UKT-2 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9UKT-2
[17:55] <adamgreig> what credentials does the professor have? are you using their callsign?
[17:55] <antenna-noob> yes
[17:55] <antenna-noob> i do not have callsign
[17:55] <adamgreig> if you have a tech class I understand you can fly under your own callsign
[17:55] <adamgreig> ah
[17:55] <adamgreig> then you don't have an amateur radio license..
[17:55] <adamgreig> anyway the legality is up to you of course, but you could consider using your own modulation on a nearby freq
[17:56] <antenna-noob> pretty much the way we had it setup when i started the project at uni was
[17:56] <antenna-noob> if you want to work on it over the summer, you need to use a legal callsign "heres mine"
[17:56] <adamgreig> don't think it's frequency reprogrammable though so maybe best avoiding pissing off all the aprs users
[17:56] <adamgreig> fair enough
[17:57] <antenna-noob> not looking to break laws/piss off rf network. just want to get ahead on this project for fall semester
[17:57] <adamgreig> anyway sure, either keep on the aprs path or get a different transmitter and try your own modulation, but either way you should get your own receiver
[17:57] <adamgreig> for $25 or so the rtl-sdr is hopefully reasonably affordable and very useful for all sorts of radio mucking around
[17:57] <antenna-noob> sounds like it. when you say "just print it out serial" what do you mean
[17:57] <antenna-noob> You still modulate it to audio tones.. right?
[17:57] <adamgreig> sorry that was poorly explained, the microprocessor or rpi or whatever you're flying will have a UART serial output pin, which is just swapping between two voltages, probably 0 and 3.3V
[17:58] <adamgreig> if you just feed the input of the hx1 with those voltages, it will output on two different freqs, corresponding to 0 and 1
[17:58] <adamgreig> better known as FSK, frequency shift keying
[17:58] <antenna-noob> makes perfect sense
[17:58] <adamgreig> if you have it connected to a normal serial port, it's then also called RTTY, radio teletype
[17:58] <adamgreig> so no need for audio tones at all
[17:58] <antenna-noob> god damn it.
[17:58] <antenna-noob> why have i been wasting all my time with these sin tables!
[17:58] <adamgreig> it's more efficient than AFSK (because no wasted carrier)
[17:58] <adamgreig> well because you have to for APRS
[17:58] <antenna-noob> i see that now
[17:59] <adamgreig> aprs is over afsk, not fsk, no choice there
[17:59] <antenna-noob> i should have just make my own protocol likle youre suggesting
[17:59] <adamgreig> the usual way to make up for is is that under amateur radio operations you can fly a lot more power than the 10mW we use
[17:59] <bertrik> but you need a single-side-band radio (or an rtl-sdr) to receive RTTY
[17:59] <adamgreig> more than enough to compensate for the aprs loss, and since you already have a nation-wide network of aprs receivers, it makes sense
[17:59] <adamgreig> yes, a baofeng won't receive FSK
[17:59] <antenna-noob> why cant a baofeng work with fsk? it only understands audio?
[18:00] <antenna-noob> its kind of weird how aprs packetized the data into audio, tbh
[18:00] <antenna-noob> never would i have thought to do it that way
[18:00] <adamgreig> aprs uses afsk exactly so it can be carried over FM audio radios, which were prevalent for that frequency band
[18:00] <antenna-noob> right
[18:00] <adamgreig> the baofeng and many other 2m/70cm transceivers are designed to just do FM operation
[18:01] <adamgreig> which requires a fm carrier, which you get with afsk, but not with fsk
[18:01] <antenna-noob> ok
[18:01] <adamgreig> so it made sense at the time for aprs to use afsk
[18:01] <antenna-noob> so is fsk not modulating the frequency?
[18:01] <antenna-noob> then what is it doing exactly
[18:01] <adamgreig> yea i thought you might ask that, uhm
[18:01] <antenna-noob> i understand asfk its changing the tones to correspond to binary data
[18:01] <adamgreig> probably you'll have a better time looking up radio modulation videos on youtube
[18:01] <adamgreig> fsk just transmits two different freqs, so it is absolutely modulating the freq
[18:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Your switching etween two frequiencies rather than modulating etween two frequiencies
[18:02] <adamgreig> but it's doing so at a low frequency, like 50Hz or whatever
[18:02] <adamgreig> AFSK is smoothly changing the frequency based on some audio signal, which contains information at high frequencies, like 1kHz
[18:02] <antenna-noob> wait so let me get this straight...
[18:02] <antenna-noob> for fsk, youre listening on multiple frequencies
[18:02] <antenna-noob> and when each frequency gets a "hit"
[18:02] <antenna-noob> lets say 1mhz gets a hit
[18:02] <antenna-noob> its a 1
[18:03] <antenna-noob> and 2 mhz gets a hit
[18:03] <antenna-noob> its a 0
[18:03] <antenna-noob> is that what youre suggesting
[18:03] <adamgreig> kind of, but that's not how the radio works under the hood
[18:03] <antenna-noob> different frequencies = different binary bits
[18:03] <adamgreig> it's a sensible way of thinking about it though
[18:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> :)
[18:03] <antenna-noob> and youre saying the baufang cant do this
[18:03] <adamgreig> yea
[18:03] <antenna-noob> because it listens on one frequency?
[18:03] <adamgreig> right
[18:03] <antenna-noob> i see
[18:04] <adamgreig> I mean, the fsk receivers also listen on just one frequency, and do a different thing
[18:04] <adamgreig> when you learn about superheterodyne radios and downmixing and stuff in your rf class, this will make a lot more sense
[18:04] <antenna-noob> im sure
[18:04] <antenna-noob> ill come back here and help the next noob to enter
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[18:05] <antenna-noob> as for right now, wrapping my head around asfk is tough
[18:05] <adamgreig> yea it's a layered mess huh
[18:06] <adamgreig> you have the audio-only part with two different tones, and preemphasis and stuff to worry about besides
[18:06] <antenna-noob> my physics knowledge is right up to waves so ive got this idea in my head that basically
[18:06] <adamgreig> and then you have to modulate that up on fm to actually transmit it
[18:06] <adamgreig> anyway though the key thing is you could transmit in either way from your hx1, but if you plan to use aprs you have to use afsk
[18:06] <adamgreig> and you should get that rtl-sdr if you can, it will let you check your stuff is actually working, which is crucial
[18:06] <antenna-noob> how is a tone transmitted on a frequency
[18:07] <antenna-noob> i am ordering one isntead of a baufang
[18:07] <adamgreig> the hx1 transmits a single frequency and that frequency is controlled by the voltage on the input pin
[18:07] <adamgreig> if you send an audio signal into that pin, you'll get FM audio output from the radio
[18:07] <adamgreig> if you toggle that pin high/low, you'll get FSK
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[18:07] <adamgreig> you might argue these look very similar and they do
[18:07] <antenna-noob> i see what youre saying now
[18:08] <adamgreig> if your FSK was just 010101010101 first at 1kHz frequency and then at 1.2kHz or whatever, it would actually be a lot like sending the two audio tones for afsk
[18:09] <adamgreig> uh, let me rephrase that: normally for fsk you'd send your raw data, 01100001011011010110 etc, directly into that pin, at your communication rate (baud rate), like 50Hz
[18:09] <antenna-noob> ohhhhhh
[18:09] <adamgreig> if instead you sent just on/off, 010101 repeating, much higher at 1kHz, that would be like an audio tone at 1kHz, and on your FM receiver you'd hear a 1kHz tone
[18:09] <antenna-noob> i see what youre on about now
[18:09] <antenna-noob> right
[18:09] <adamgreig> and then 50 times a second you swap your 010101 between 1kHz and 1.2kHz, you'd get AFSK out of your FM receiver
[18:09] <adamgreig> so in the first case you directly have the frequency send your data, and change it 50 times/second
[18:10] <antenna-noob> ok wow yes youve made me realize i had a fundamental misunderstanding
[18:10] <adamgreig> in the second case you actually send one of two different tones, and change tone 50/s, but you have to flip your pin up/down 1000 times/second for the audio level tone
[18:10] <antenna-noob> it wouldnt really efffect anything but my understanding of radio transmissions was flawed
[18:10] <adamgreig> the FM receiver isn't sensitive to the ~50Hz from the first case, because it's too low frequency for speech
[18:10] <adamgreig> the FM receiver _is_ sensitive to the 1000Hz tone from the second case, because that's in the audio range for speech
[18:11] <adamgreig> the FSK receiver would receive all of it, because it doesn't cut off low frequencies
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[18:11] <adamgreig> please do bear in mind I'm simplifying and making assumptions to hopefully be clearer on the point at hand, when you learn more you'll come back to this and probably realise that and hopefully not feel like I was misleading :P
[18:11] <antenna-noob> i have a question regarding asfk now
[18:11] <adamgreig> shoot
[18:12] <antenna-noob> when im sending a 1200hz tone on a frequency of 144.390hz what does that wave look like
[18:12] <antenna-noob> arent those both frequencies?
[18:12] <antenna-noob> how can you send a frequency over a frequency
[18:12] <adamgreig> yea
[18:12] <adamgreig> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation#/media/File:Amfm3-en-de.gif
[18:12] <adamgreig> the black line is your 1200Hz
[18:12] <adamgreig> the blue line is your output wave
[18:13] <adamgreig> see how its frequency changes around 144.390Hz over time
[18:13] <adamgreig> MHz* but this animation isn't to scale
[18:13] <antenna-noob> omg
[18:13] <antenna-noob> that clicked
[18:13] <adamgreig> so your output varies smoothly in frequency between 144.390MHz and maybe 144.391MHz
[18:14] <antenna-noob> makes sense why the hx1 is labeled "144.390-10" now
[18:15] <antenna-noob> geeze wow so you really are sending frequencies over frequencies is what its boiling down to
[18:15] <antenna-noob> on your 'loons do you generally transmit over 434mhz using fsk and then use the device you told me to buy on the ground
[18:15] <antenna-noob> to decode those "packets"
[18:15] <adamgreig> maybe, it's listed as having a deviation of +-3kHz on the datasheet, which means between 0V and 5V on the TX pin, you'll see 144.390MHz to 133.393MHz being output, say
[18:15] <adamgreig> yes
[18:16] <antenna-noob> thats so cool
[18:16] <adamgreig> or similar devices on the ground, which are more sensitive but more expensive
[18:16] <antenna-noob> do you have a car with a big antenna
[18:16] <adamgreig> I don't own a car so no, but plenty of people do
[18:16] <antenna-noob> well dont you need to maintain LOS with the 'loon
[18:16] <antenna-noob> what happens when it lands
[18:16] <adamgreig> you lose signal
[18:17] <adamgreig> hopefully you heard it low-down enough that you can find it
[18:17] <antenna-noob> my tracker has a gsm fallback that when it hits 10k ft
[18:17] <antenna-noob> it enabled the gsm sheild and tries to text me
[18:17] <antenna-noob> lol
[18:17] <adamgreig> sounds good
[18:17] <antenna-noob> that method has worked a total of 0 times fyi
[18:18] <adamgreig> yea the gsm fallbacks are definitely a backup, not to be relied on as a primary means of locating the thing
[18:18] <antenna-noob> would not reccomend, cell coverage is not as good as you think
[18:18] <antenna-noob> i had one balloon send me a text at 9000ft elvt of its loc but i never found it
[18:18] <SIbot> In real units: 9000 ft = 2743 m
[18:19] <antenna-noob> i feel like basically it drifted from there so when i went to the spot
[18:19] <antenna-noob> not there
[18:19] <adamgreig> cell coverage is especially poor at ground level too, compared to a couple metres up where you hold your phone
[18:19] <antenna-noob> were getting off topic- do you reccomend any other protocols/means to track the balloon beyond rf?
[18:19] <adamgreig> you can get iridium satellite modems, they're cool
[18:20] <antenna-noob> is that lora?
[18:20] <adamgreig> no
[18:20] <adamgreig> lora is rf, just like fsk but with a cleverer thing
[18:20] <adamgreig> iridium is also rf, but it talks to orbiting satellites which relay the data back to you over the internet
[18:20] <adamgreig> lora is probably good too I guess, very popular because it's easier than doing the fsk yourself and it's maybe more reliable and higher data throughput
[18:21] <antenna-noob> encryption overhead
[18:21] <adamgreig> people also use SPOTs which are another different satellite thing, but with a built in gps
[18:21] <adamgreig> lora encryption is optional and we don't use it
[18:21] <antenna-noob> ive seen those frequently
[18:21] <adamgreig> there is an encoding overhead but that gives you error correction which might be worthwhile
[18:21] <adamgreig> (probably not in lora's case in my unexpert opinion)
[18:21] <antenna-noob> ooo
[18:21] <antenna-noob> well thank you for all your consultation
[18:21] <adamgreig> yw
[18:21] <antenna-noob> i usually come on here as *****-noob
[18:22] <adamgreig> do read the wiki more
[18:22] <antenna-noob> ill work on my antenna and read more before i come back with updates
[18:22] <adamgreig> lot of good things scattered around
[18:22] <adamgreig> good luck
[18:22] <antenna-noob> have a good one thank again
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[18:22] <adamgreig> does anyone want to send me a 434mhz quarter wave they think is actually good for me to stick on the vna and torture
[18:22] <bertrik> I'm casually looking into using "the-things-network" (which also uses lora) as a bridge towards habitat, but don't have much code yet
[18:22] <adamgreig> cool
[18:23] <adamgreig> shout if you need to talk about habitat integration
[18:23] <adamgreig> though if you can poke ukhas style sentences in directly then the normal thing is probably best
[18:23] <bertrik> adamgreig: the thing I'm most worried about is actually the client interface towards "habitat"
[18:23] <bertrik> looking at the C code, it appears to be a direct database connection, is that right?
[18:24] <adamgreig> yea haha uhm
[18:24] <adamgreig> there's a) a python library that's a lot easier to read
[18:24] <adamgreig> but b) basically the gist is you just PUT to http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/payload_telemetry/_update/add_listener/<id> with some stuff
[18:24] <adamgreig> http://habitat.readthedocs.io/en/latest/habitat/habitat/habitat/habitat.views.payload_telemetry.html#module-habitat.views.payload_telemetry
[18:24] <adamgreig> so you have a new string, you take the sha256 hex digest of the base64 encoded raw data
[18:25] <adamgreig> you PUT to that URL with that ID
[18:25] <adamgreig> and you include that JSON struture with your callsign/details
[18:25] <bertrik> aha, thanks, I'll copy the links above and look a bit more into it
[18:25] <adamgreig> and then you might have to retry that a few times if it says there was a save conflict (but that's unlikely if you're the only one uploading these exact sentences)
[18:25] <bertrik> is there a kind of test server that I can use, so I don't muck up the real database?
[18:25] <adamgreig> alas no
[18:26] <adamgreig> you won't muck it up any more than present though
[18:26] <bertrik> :)
[18:26] <adamgreig> just make up an obviously dud callsign like NOTAFLIGHT
[18:26] <adamgreig> should be enough to stop anyone thinking it's real
[18:31] <bertrik> Each TTN gateway has a unique 8-byte id, maybe I can use that as the callsign. Possibly I can also look up an ASCII description of the gateway name.
[18:31] <adamgreig> perfect
[18:31] <adamgreig> whatever works for you
[18:31] <adamgreig> if you're feeling brave, you can also tell habitat the gps location of those gateways
[18:31] <adamgreig> that's the listener_telemetry type of message, also in the docs
[18:32] <adamgreig> then the map will show them in the correct location and draw lines to the payload etc
[18:32] <bertrik> yes, I think I can also get that information from the gateways
[18:33] <bertrik> it seems like it should be a good fit, and I'm excited to implement a bridge like this
[18:33] <adamgreig> cool
[18:33] <adamgreig> shout if you hit any sticking points
[18:34] <bertrik> I will, thanks :)
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[18:35] <bertrik> adamgreig: I put up a wiki page with my plans https://revspace.nl/TTNHABBridge I hope to bring up some source code soon on github
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[18:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9UKT-7 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9UKT-7
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[19:44] <dbrooke> bertrik: this is slightly hacky C code for a standalone habitat uploader (accepts validated sentences on stdin) based on the way daveake's lora gateway does it - http://stuff.dbrooke.me.uk/sp-VpK2Cw.c
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[20:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03U3B-6 after 037 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=U3B-6
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[21:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
[21:25] <Laurenceb> !whereis HIRFW-6
[21:25] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb: 03HIRFW-6 is over 03North Pacific Ocean 10(1.81441,146.46215) at 0314332 meters
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[21:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03X0 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=X0
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[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03YPADSONDE after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YPADSONDE
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[23:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[00:00] --- Tue Aug 8 2017