highaltitude.log.20170418

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[03:19] <heathkid> anyone seen KF7FER???
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[05:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5KMP-8 after 039 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5KMP-8
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[06:23] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03icarusIV after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=icarusIV
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[10:04] <pb0ahx> !flights
[10:04] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: There are no flights currently :(
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[10:23] <K6sts> Any sonde hunters in the US?
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[10:36] <fsphil> sonde season
[10:38] <kokey> ok, now I am really wondering... is there a season?
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[10:41] <M0RJX> ping daveake
[10:41] <Vaizki_> you can hunt them with bow & arrow only between Feb30-31
[10:41] <daveake> poing
[10:42] <fsphil> careful, he's got code and he's not afraid to use it
[10:42] <M0RJX> Just sent you a pull request for the lora-gw added a help screen and fixed a small bug
[10:42] <daveake> righto not seen it yet
[10:43] <M0RJX> No big code changes :-)
[10:43] <M0RJX> or formatting
[10:43] <daveake> hah was about to add that :)
[10:43] <M0RJX> That will save you a few hours of coding :-)
[10:45] <M0RJX> I had to create a couple of display functions to redraw the screen after the help screen closes
[10:45] <daveake> yeah
[10:45] <daveake> ncurses is too dumb to do that for you
[10:45] <M0RJX> These just read the settings from the channel structure and writes them to the screen.
[10:46] <daveake> What a great blog comment ...
[10:46] <daveake> "that is good what am expected i want to build like that in ethiopia"
[10:46] <daveake> where do I start lol
[10:47] <fsphil> it's got a bit of google translate about it
[10:47] <M0RJX> if you use pannels (part of ncurses) then it would have been fine but I couldn't face redoing all the GUI code
[10:48] <M0RJX> daveake, hopfully a very simple merge for this update
[10:48] <daveake> still, prefer those to the nutters
[10:49] <fsphil> yeah
[10:49] <fsphil> any requests to help prove the earth is flat yet?
[10:49] <daveake> The futureologist or whateverTF he called himself has shut up now
[10:49] <daveake> I asked him for a spec :-)
[10:49] <fsphil> lol
[10:50] <fsphil> he didn't see that coming
[10:50] <daveake> hah
[10:50] <M0RJX> lol
[10:50] <fsphil> the wally reflector
[10:50] <fsphil> works every time
[10:50] <daveake> It's been pretty effective
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[10:51] <daveake> Had 2 or 3 so far this year, where they seem to want me to agree to provide some undefined amount of help for a barely defined project
[10:51] <daveake> Putting the onus back on them has been 100% effective so far
[10:52] <fsphil> I can understand some, getting excited by it and getting ahead of themselves
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[11:24] <AndyEsser> anyone here read Control Systems Engineering by Nise?
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[12:12] <futurity> Hi, After a gaps of a few years, Im thinking of getting back into Balloon tracking again.
[12:13] <Darkside> yay?
[12:13] <futurity> Im based in Cambridge uk. Do balloons still use 50 baud 433MHz, or have they switched to LoRaWAN? If LoRaWAN, are they still using 433MHz?
[12:14] <Darkside> none of the balloons use the LoRaWAN protocol
[12:14] <Darkside> because overhead and stuff
[12:14] <Darkside> most fly RTTY still though
[12:15] <Darkside> and if you use dl-fldigi, you often just need to select the flight and hit auto-configure
[12:15] <futurity> I see. Ive read lots of posts from Dave Akerman about him using LoRaWAN so I mistakenly thought that that was the new standard
[12:15] <Darkside> its not LoRaWAN
[12:15] <Darkside> its the LoRa modems though
[12:15] <Darkside> LoRa != LoRaWAN. LoRaWAN is another level up the OSI stack
[12:16] <futurity> oh i see, they are different. so is he the only person using LoRa?
[12:16] <Darkside> no, lots of people are flying LoRa
[12:16] <Darkside> not as many as RTTY though i think
[12:16] <futurity> i se, so LoRa is the spread frequency
[12:16] <Darkside> dave has software to run on a raspberry pi to do the RX stuff
[12:16] <futurity> LoRaWAN is only application of it?
[12:16] <Darkside> LoRA is the modem (i.e. bits to RF waveform)
[12:17] <Darkside> LoRaWAN is a packet and routing protocol on top of that
[12:17] <futurity> i see, so is LoRa a two way communication, or is it one way like the RTTY?
[12:18] <Darkside> most flights are one way
[12:18] <Darkside> any uplink stuff will be fairly well locked down
[12:19] <Darkside> as its likely goign to be controlling things like cutdowns, which the launcher won't want joe public to be triggering!
[12:19] <futurity> i see, so for LoRa transmissions, are they still looking for extra people to track the transmissions like for RTTY?
[12:20] <Darkside> yeah, it still helps
[12:20] <futurity> Cool
[12:20] <futurity> So to do this, Id need a LoRa gateway? Multichannel or just a single channel?
[12:21] <futurity> just wondering if ballons channel hope, or do they say which frequency / channel and spread they will be using?
[12:21] <Darkside> on 434 mhz it will be a single frequency
[12:21] <Darkside> and that would be announced before the launch
[12:21] <Darkside> https://github.com/daveake/lora-gateway
[12:22] <Darkside> there are other settings that can change between launches
[12:22] <Darkside> various low-level LoRa modem parameters
[12:22] <futurity> cool and 433MHz is still the preferred requency then?
[12:22] <Darkside> daveake: is really the best person to explain
[12:22] <Darkside> i think daveake has done a few on 868 MHz
[12:22] <Darkside> but the vast majority are on 434 MHz
[12:22] <futurity> No problem, many thanks for your help today
[12:23] <Darkside> no probs
[12:23] <Darkside> time for me to head to bed too...
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> Darkside: night
[12:23] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: well not just yet :P
[12:23] <Darkside> but i need to start thinking about it, almost 10pm
[12:24] <daveake> 868 is useful in UK for higher bandwidth (e.g. larger SSDV images than with RTTY), but has rather less range, so for most purposes 434 is best (better range, more receivers)
[12:24] <futurity> Hi Dave
[12:25] <Darkside> daveake: if only you could fly amateur stuff in the air...
[12:25] <daveake> heh
[12:25] <futurity> So if I buy one of Anthonys Pi hats with a 433MHz LoRa module on it and hook that up to my 433MHz yagi, thats all i really need?
[12:25] <Darkside> then you could have high bandwidth and high range, like us :-)
[12:25] <daveake> shut up now :)
[12:25] <futurity> lol
[12:26] <Darkside> futurity: i'm in australia, and we don't have silly restriction son bandwidth of power
[12:26] <daveake> futurity: Yes that's all you need
[12:26] <Darkside> so i can do 115kbps downlink images
[12:26] <futurity> thanks, I best get buying some kit then.
[12:26] <futurity> ttfn
[12:26] <daveake> np
[12:27] <Darkside> daveake: anothing flight of that coming up this weekend
[12:27] <daveake> cool
[12:27] <Darkside> i think it'll just be going up on every flight from now on
[12:27] <Darkside> really would like a better lens on the picam though
[12:27] <daveake> Yeah I imagine that's the biggest limitation for you now :)
[12:28] <Darkside> yeah, because the gphoto idea sucked
[12:28] <daveake> yeah, shame
[12:28] <Darkside> mostly it came down to the camera sucking 500mA out of the USB port
[12:28] <Darkside> which is always a bad thing
[12:28] <daveake> Fly an SLR :)
[12:28] <Darkside> haha
[12:28] <Darkside> don't tempt me
[12:28] <daveake> hah
[12:29] <Darkside> i probably have enough link budget to double the data rate
[12:29] <Darkside> and start downlink full-res SLR images
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[12:31] <fsphil> he's gone mad with power
[12:31] <fsphil> MORE BITS
[12:32] <daveake> MAKE HAB GREAT AGAIN
[12:32] <Darkside> fsphil: i've already had reports of ssdv.habhub.org crashing some web browsers
[12:32] <daveake> He'll be golfing at weekends next
[12:33] <fsphil> yes, it might be worth looking at something to just load images on demand
[12:34] <fsphil> and to limit the width so it fits on the screen without needing to scroll horizontally
[12:34] <gonzo_> quote from simpsons: Have you ever tried going mad without power? It's boring, no one listens to you.
[12:36] <Darkside> fsphil: a nice little embeddable widget would be nice too
[12:36] <Darkside> to just display the most recent image from a given callsign
[12:37] <fsphil> was thinking of something like that for the home page
[12:37] <fsphil> just a list of recently active callsigns and the last ~5 images
[12:37] <fsphil> the trouble with the most recent image is it's usually incomplete
[12:39] <gonzo_> would be interesting to see the rx stats on the station details, when you click. Though sods law is, the data is not collecting in a convenient way
[12:40] <Darkside> i wrote a little python script to grab some of that data.
[12:40] <Darkside> as i wanted to know what callsigns to think in the blog post
[12:40] <Darkside> thank*
[12:40] <gonzo_> is that the packets pie charts?
[12:40] <Darkside> nah
[12:40] <Darkside> there isnt an equivalent for ssdv
[12:40] <Darkside> but i can tell what callsign got what image
[12:41] <Darkside> and i think i can do that to the packet level fsphil ?
[12:41] <Darkside> but i didnt really want to go down to the packet level on 80+ 1500-packet images
[12:42] <fsphil> yeah there's a list of receiver callsigns in the api
[12:42] <fsphil> though it's not per-packet
[12:43] <fsphil> actually I lie, it does list who received each packet
[12:44] <Darkside> would be nice if there was a basic packet count for each callsign
[12:44] <Darkside> <enhancement>
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[12:47] <AndyEsser> ordered an STM32F4 discovery board :)
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[12:48] <fsphil> congrats
[12:48] <AndyEsser> bit more to it than the atmega 328s :)
[12:51] <fsphil> still don't think I understand how the clocks work
[12:52] <AndyEsser> in the atmega?
[12:52] <AndyEsser> or in general?
[12:52] <AndyEsser> :P
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[12:53] <fsphil> stm32's
[12:55] <fsphil> http://waijung.aimagin.com/stm32f4xx_clocktree_zoom60.png :)
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[12:56] <AndyEsser> o good lord
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[13:02] <kokey> what's the 48mhz clocks used for?
[13:03] <adamgreig> mostly USB
[13:03] <russss> thankfully 90% of the time you can just ignore all the clock business and it just works
[13:04] <fsphil> yeah, just remember to enable the ones for whatever you're using
[13:04] <adamgreig> anyway that's nothing, check out the F7 http://imgur.com/a/DaXfB
[13:05] <fsphil> so complex it won't even load
[13:05] <adamgreig> lol not sure what imgur is doing
[13:05] <adamgreig> http://imgur.com/a/rfoT2
[13:05] <adamgreig> uh
[13:05] <adamgreig> https://agg.io/u/stm32f7_clocktree.png
[13:05] <fsphil> lol
[13:05] <fsphil> that is intense
[13:06] <adamgreig> it's pretty cool
[13:06] <adamgreig> it's often really useful to have so much flexibility though
[13:06] <fsphil> all together it looks quite bad, but I suppose for individual components it's not too bad
[13:06] <adamgreig> done some pretty weird things
[13:06] <adamgreig> yea
[13:06] <adamgreig> I mean assuming you use some kind of HAL you basically never worry about any of it
[13:07] <adamgreig> if you're doing everything from scratch it's a little more work but not so bad really
[13:07] <AndyEsser> :)
[13:08] <adamgreig> most of those are like the peripheral-specific clock domains and weird PLLs for things like I2S and the LCD controller and DSI/DCI
[13:19] <SpeedEvil> Also, lots of them aren't that important to get right if you don't care about power
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> it's when you want to start up and shut down in the minimum time, with the minimum clock speed per peripheral and only the required subset of clocks it gets annoying
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> ^very
[13:20] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: any recommended reading for getting started with the STM32?
[13:20] <adamgreig> https://japaric.github.io/discovery/
[13:21] <adamgreig> it's for the stm32 f3 though. probably pretty similar.
[13:21] <AndyEsser> eww Rust
[13:21] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:21] <AndyEsser> thanks :)
[13:21] <adamgreig> I mean seriously read the datasheet and reference manual, work out an actual thing you want to do, and figure out how to do it
[13:21] <adamgreig> ask specific questions as you go
[13:21] <adamgreig> plenty of people here with stm32 experienc
[13:21] <AndyEsser> Yea, I've got a specific goal in mind - so that helps :)
[13:21] <AndyEsser> thanks
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[14:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[14:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 032short_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=2short_chase
[14:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03sonata_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=sonata_chase
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[14:48] <futurity> daveake: Do you happen to know if the Pi LoRa hat is single or multiple channel?
[14:49] <daveake> Takes 1-2 modules, 1 channel each
[14:51] <futurity> daveake: Thanks, I take it that if you only have one module installed that the channel and the bandwidth can be selected (only the band frequency is fixed)
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdmHHpAsMVw Atlas/cygnus (to ISS) launch in ~20 mins
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> Without recovery of any stages.
[14:52] <daveake> You can set frequency, bandwidth and the other stuff (error coding, spreading factor etc)
[14:52] <futurity> fantastic
[14:52] <daveake> There are separate modules for the 434, 868 and 915 bands
[14:53] <futurity> So would you recommend purchasing two seperate frequencies than getting 2x 434 modules?
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[15:02] <daveake> 2 x 434 would be handy if there are 2 lora 434 flights up at the same time
[15:02] <daveake> but I'd go for 434+868 so you can help with the 868 flights
[15:03] <gonzo_> I assume futurity is looking at ground lora rather than flying two modules?
[15:10] <edmoore> 1min 30 to launch
[15:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03zs6lmg_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=zs6lmg_chase
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> centaur is an amazing stage
[15:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
[15:35] <kc2pit> It's really stretching to handle that much payload, though. They put up with a lot of gravity loss with that low thrust/weight ratio.
[15:35] <futurity> gonzo: Yes Im just looking at tracking rather than launching
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[16:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PUT-HAP1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PUT-HAP1
[17:00] <M0RJX> does anyone know GDZHK5
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[17:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9ONO-9_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9ONO-9_chase
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[18:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC1ENN - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC1ENN
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[19:02] <M0RJX> if you tx right next to your rx on lora what would you expect the RSSI to be
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[19:02] <M0RJX> 70?
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[19:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Overloaded
[19:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Or in other words indeterminate
[19:56] <Ian_> What is a realistic/reasonable range of rssi when passably, but not too, close and at the distant edge of reception
[19:56] <Ian_> ?
[20:01] <Ian_> I have no metrics and have only ever received one LoRa flight . . . so I am just a little in the dark. I guess that I need to generate a signal myself and check it out.
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[20:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I've not found the RSSI to be that reliable at all to be honest I did plot RSSI against errors etc and not a lot of corellation at all.
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[21:15] <Ian_> Thanks for that Geoff.
[21:24] <M0RJX> daveake, in Implicit mode should the payload length be set to 255
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[21:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WORKPI - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WORKPI
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 19 2017