highaltitude.log.20170411

[00:12] <esculca> anybody with some experience with APRS?
[00:19] <esculca> I have some igates around me, welll, more or less, maybe a few Kms away
[00:20] <esculca> need to know if my messages are getting to a close by igate
[00:20] <esculca> how can I check that?
[00:27] <lz1dev> what messages are you sending?
[00:28] <esculca> normal messages
[00:28] <esculca> I guess
[00:28] <esculca> adding the -11 at the end
[00:29] <esculca> wide1-1 and wide2-1
[00:29] <esculca> I am trying with HX-1
[00:29] <lz1dev> whats the callsign?
[00:29] <esculca> I am using a dummy callsign
[00:30] <esculca> as I Still don't have a ham license
[00:30] <lz1dev> .aprs ping hx-1
[00:30] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: No matches found
[00:30] <lz1dev> you might be tting rejected because of invalid callsign
[00:30] <lz1dev> check http://aprs.fi
[00:31] <esculca> that is where I am checking
[00:31] <mfa298> esculca: you need to be on the right aprs freqency for your area, and you really should have the license before transmitting on the ham bands
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[00:31] <esculca> absolutely mfa298
[00:31] <esculca> I am just experimenting
[00:31] <mfa298> HAMs can get quite grumpy at unlicened operators and can get you into trouble
[00:31] <lz1dev> https://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=hx-1&limit=50&view=normal
[00:31] <lz1dev> nothing
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[00:32] <esculca> you're right mfa
[00:32] <esculca> will turn this off then
[00:32] <esculca> I was simpky trying to thet the hardware tested
[00:33] <esculca> to test* the hardware
[00:33] <mfa298> the hx1 if thats what you're using as a transmitter is fairly weak compared to most aprs transmitters, so to get picked up you'll probably need to have it high up and/or connected to an external antenna
[00:34] <esculca> I am using radiometrix hx-1 connected to an antenna
[00:34] <esculca> outdoor antenna
[00:34] <esculca> 144 MHz antenna
[00:34] <esculca> monopole antenna
[00:35] <esculca> I have it outside, in the balcony
[00:35] <mfa298> testing on the bench with a local reciever and limiting the output from the transmitter shouldn't cause many issues, trying to get it going so others can pick it up is when the issues migt occur
[00:35] <esculca> looks like nobady is picking it up :P
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[00:36] <esculca> I will drive around and check how far I Can pick up the signal
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[00:38] <esculca> do you think that with HX-1 I cannot reach a digipeater?
[00:39] <esculca> maybe not.. in fact the closest digipeater is 50Kms away
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[02:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[03:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03satish_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=satish_chase
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[04:17] Nick change: daey_ -> daey
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[05:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[05:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[07:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KK6PNN-5 after 0317 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KK6PNN-5
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[07:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD0VJI-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0VJI-11
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[09:40] <hairgoneJohn> Hi folks. I'm dong some research for a hab project. I've got a couple of queries
[09:41] <gonzo_> fire away, and hang on in the chan for replies
[09:41] <hairgoneJohn> Within the 2m size limit what is the practical max weight to get above 60000ft?
[09:41] <SIbot14> In real units: 60000 ft = 18.3 km
[09:42] <hairgoneJohn> schoolboy error!
[09:43] <hairgoneJohn> 18.3k not absolute amount but I want to get high rather than 3k
[09:44] <hairgoneJohn> i would like to get say 100gm to 30k m ideally. Is that possible?
[09:44] <craag> Hi hairgoneJohn, there's a calculator at: http://habhub.org/calc/
[09:45] <craag> The hwoyee 100g specifies a burst diameter of 1.8m
[09:45] <craag> So even with that you need all of the payload within 20cm of the sphere of the balloon.
[09:48] <craag> Note that it's a *typical* burst diameter of 1.8m, they have been observed to expand larger than 2m before burst. The potential legal implications of that are up to you to think about.
[09:49] <craag> However first play with numbers in the calculator and see if it's *physically* possible :)
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[09:52] <hairgoneJohn> thanks. looking at the calculator, is the volume the vol at burst and do you work backwards to get dia?
[09:53] <craag> Open the 'Constants (advanced)' section
[09:54] <craag> and you'll see, for a given selected balloon, what the burst diameter is specified as
[09:54] <craag> erm
[09:54] <craag> no you wont
[09:55] <daveake> odd
[09:55] <craag> Source code: https://github.com/ukhas/cusf-burst-calc/blob/master/js/calc.js#L146-L186
[09:55] <hairgoneJohn> if I use 50g payload and Hwy100 with 15k metrs it gives burst dia of 7.86m? Surely not.
[09:56] <craag> Those are burst diameters in m
[09:56] <craag> Yes that display box isn't working hairgoneJohn
[09:56] <craag> ignore it
[09:56] <craag> see the link that I just posted
[09:56] <daveake> and don't check that box either :)
[09:56] <craag> Yeah close the Constants section, the defaults in there are good and the rest of the calculator works :)
[09:57] <daveake> hairgoneJohn: The selected balloon has (or should have!) a fixed burst diameter, which won't vary with gas fill, payload weight etc.
[09:58] <daveake> So to stay within the 2m limit choose the balloon with < 2m burst diamater, and put your payload in the neck or very close to it
[09:58] <daveake> Then you can mess around with payload weight / gas fill without worrying of the burst diameter will change
[09:58] <hairgoneJohn> Ok. So where do i find burst diameters please?
[09:59] <daveake> crrag's link ^
[09:59] <daveake> craag's
[09:59] <daveake> Also http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[10:03] <hairgoneJohn> thanks. Looking at stev's calc it looks like cannot get 100g balloon above 18k m whatever the payload
[10:04] <craag> sounds about right :)
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[10:07] <daveake> 100g / 3m/s gets just over 18km with helium; 19km with H2
[10:07] <daveake> (Pawan 100g)
[10:08] <hairgoneJohn> Is there anything to be gained using two qualatex 92cm instead?
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[10:10] <daveake> No that would be lower
[10:10] <daveake> Why do you want > 18km in particular ?
[10:15] <hairgoneJohn> The NOTAM requirement is an obstacle that I am trying to avoid. I want to launch a payload with experiments as well as gps/radio that will get to as high as possible. Is this possible?
[10:15] <daveake> "as high as possible" = (pretty much) whatever that calculator says
[10:15] <hairgoneJohn> Sorry about the garbled English. Be gentle!
[10:17] <daveake> So you're stuck with the Pawan 100 due to the no-notam requirement. All you can do after that is reduce the payload weight, use h2 rather than he, and see if a bit less gas will get you higher
[10:17] <hairgoneJohn> OK. So the answer seems to be to use a 100gm latex. Could get 100gm to 15km.
[10:17] <daveake> 18km @ 3m/s
[10:17] <daveake> 3m/s for a larger balloon is in float territory, but with a 100g I doubt that's the case
[10:19] <gonzo_> I managed just short of 30km with a 100gm, but with a light payload (35gm, from mem?)
[10:19] <daveake> Pawan or Hwoyee?
[10:19] <hairgoneJohn> Thanks. The next question is recovering the payload req. a parachute. Is is practical to fold them in flight to stay <2m
[10:19] <daveake> The latter are rather > 2m
[10:19] <gonzo_> but the notem exempt flights are a very good way to test your tracker and get some experience
[10:20] <daveake> You can put the chute inside the balloon
[10:20] <hairgoneJohn> Great. Is deployment reliable?
[10:20] <gonzo_> daveake, I forget which mfr. But the spec was <1/8mtrs
[10:20] <daveake> spec <> reality for Hwoyeee
[10:20] <AndyEsser> :)
[10:21] <daveake> They've changed their spec since the early flights :)
[10:21] <gonzo_> spec = due diligence and buck passing
[10:21] <gonzo_> ah, ok
[10:21] <daveake> IIRC 3-4 flights went well over 20km
[10:22] <gonzo_> I was using 100gm balloons from steve's first batch. If you can remember what mfr they were
[10:23] <daveake> It's a bit daft, but the fact that the Hwoyees go larger before burst means that, even being the same weight as a Pawan, they need a notam
[10:23] <daveake> Even though they only get to 2m+ well above altitudes that the CAA are interested in
[10:23] <daveake> Yeah those were Hwoyee
[10:24] <gonzo_> the other option for pico flights (notam exempt) is foil balloons. As they don't expand. But will limit your max altitude to a few km
[10:24] <daveake> yup. I did one with 2 of those, 60g, and it got to 7km
[10:25] <gonzo_> I must send up another little pico. It's been almost two yrs since I flew anythuing
[10:29] <hairgoneJohn> To get back to parachute inside envelope. Do they deploy reliably?
[10:55] <gonzo_> if the balloon bursts cleenly, then I can see no reason by not
[10:56] <gonzo_> cleanly
[10:56] <daveake> And if it doesn't, a 100g payload isn't going to fall that quickly with a stream of latex behind it
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[11:14] <gonzo_> I also wrap my payload in bubble wrap. Adds some light insulatuon, and would help if the chute didn't work
[11:14] <gonzo_> light weight thermal insulation
[11:20] <hairgoneJohn> Is it feasible to take photos from pico or do you need long length cord to get steady shots
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK5EI-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5EI-11
[11:23] <gonzo_> a fast shutter setting? Though you can only use the lightest of caneras, which will probably mean having to recover it to get the SD card back
[11:24] <hairgoneJohn> yes. I'm thinking of pi camera with pi zero
[11:24] <gonzo_> unless you do a lot of design work to make a very light weight SSDV payload
[11:25] <gonzo_> can you get that <50gm?
[11:26] <gonzo_> I assume you are in the UK if NOTAMS are an issue. Where abouts would you launch from?
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[11:27] <hairgoneJohn> 100gm payload seems poss. 25gm chute, 15gm zero + cam, 20gm gps/radio/sensor board, 20gm batteries. Does that sound feasible?
[11:28] <hairgoneJohn> Launch in Uk from spot clear of airspace etc. and not close to coast
[11:28] <gonzo_> you could shave that abit with the chute. I make them from arrier bags
[11:28] <gonzo_> what area of the UK are you in?
[11:29] <hairgoneJohn> Brilliant idea. The really thin ones you get from market traders? And do you shape them?
[11:29] <gonzo_> it's difficult to find somewhere free of airsoace in the UK. But suing the bpredictor and avoiding the airports is a must
[11:30] <gonzo_> my typing is extra bad today
[11:30] <craag> please don't sue the predictor, it tries hard to be right :)
[11:30] <hairgoneJohn> I'm near Reigate but prob launch from cambridge area say.
[11:30] <AndyEsser> hehe, like how you said Reigate and not Redhill
[11:30] <AndyEsser> *shudders at memories of Redhill*
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[11:31] <hairgoneJohn> lets go outside and sort this out !
[11:31] <AndyEsser> Reigate wasn't too bad!
[11:31] <AndyEsser> Redhill was... less than good
[11:31] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:31] <gonzo_> I used the free (before they charged) tesco bags and with a tiny light payload, just opened them out and put cords on the corners. Just to slow it to a sensible rate
[11:31] <gonzo_> not scientific
[11:32] <AndyEsser> anyone used streamers with HAB payloads?
[11:32] <AndyEsser> or do they not really do a lot at those heights/speeds?
[11:32] <mattbrejza> depends how light your payload is
[11:33] <gonzo_> the camb people have a site with a permenant-ish NOTAM. So quite a few flights go up from there. So worth keeping an eye on the calander and there may be a launch you can go and watch, to get some ideas/experience
[11:33] <gonzo_> (sometiones a lesson in how not to do it too!)
[11:35] <hairgoneJohn> Yes. I've done one launch with Steve Randall but looking for flexibility of Notam free flights.
[11:36] <gonzo_> that's a damd good start
[11:36] <mattbrejza> has keychain 808 camera + small tracker + 50-100g balloon been mentioned?
[11:37] <hairgoneJohn> Any recommendations on 808 camera?
[11:37] <mattbrejza> #16
[11:37] <gonzo_> are those things still suspect for jamming gps?
[11:37] <craag> check it's a genuine #16 when you get it - there's guides to do this
[11:37] <mattbrejza> #16 is generally ok, but needs good testing
[11:38] <craag> have had a gps chip antenna breakout get lock fine sitting directly under a running #16
[11:38] <mattbrejza> eg http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//180962539554
[11:39] <gonzo_> for those cams, you obviously have to get the payload back. And combs flights tend to go east and get wet
[11:40] <gonzo_> so a more western launch site would be better
[11:40] <hairgoneJohn> Notam free means I can go further west
[11:41] <hairgoneJohn> what is pic quality from #16?
[11:41] <gonzo_> notam free, you can just drive to wherever you want and release any time. Common sence engaged of course
[11:42] <gonzo_> below 2mtrs it's basically a party balloon, rather than an airborne vehicle
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[12:01] <mattbrejza> https://www.flickr.com/photos/104821768@N06/albums/72157651518026711 hairgoneJohn anything that says vlc_snap
[12:02] <hairgoneJohn> Thanks. Not too tasty then.
[12:05] <mattbrejza> well these are video stills from something that was spinning quite fast, compared to a stills camera
[12:05] <mattbrejza> https://www.flickr.com/photos/104821768@N06/16701892837/in/album-72157651518026711/ on the way down (less spinning), you can see our car parked up
[12:06] <hairgoneJohn> That looks a bit better.
[12:06] <mattbrejza> perhaps there are better cameras for hte size, but i dont think there is that much choice
[12:07] <mattbrejza> doesnt help i didnt get any stills from mid-flight
[12:10] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/a/PhY5V
[12:10] <mattbrejza> thats one
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[12:18] <hairgoneJohn> Not bad. Do you think pi camera would be much better?
[12:20] <mattbrejza> probably roughly the same
[12:20] <mattbrejza> but really depends on how big you want the payload to be
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[12:29] <hairgoneJohn> looking for sub 100gm all in but less would be better. Idea is a scientific experiment pico.
[12:29] <adamgreig> I would be careful using a carrier bag as a parachute
[12:29] <adamgreig> you can probably do a lot better for the same mass without too much extra effort
[12:30] <adamgreig> required watching is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2egYw8kd3s
[12:30] <adamgreig> I won't otherwise comment on 100g latex balloons, pico flights, and parachutes :)
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[12:36] <gonzo_> that was all that was avail at the time. And just re-used the idea
[12:38] <adamgreig> definitely can work
[12:38] <adamgreig> but I reckon if you cut the bag a bit it'd probably work better
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[12:39] <AndyEsser> I once tried jumping out of a tree with a black bin liner as a parachute
[12:39] <AndyEsser> it did not go as planned
[12:52] <gonzo_> we used to fill them with gas and set them off with a burning tail
[12:53] <gonzo_> I did put a hole at the top to stabilise it a bit. We found that worked well, when we used them with rockets. As we had cameras onboard, and a stable descent was req
[12:54] <gonzo_> the chute, not the burning bin bags!
[12:55] <gonzo_> but for habs, I just wanted max drag
[12:56] <AndyEsser> look in the phonebook for him
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[14:09] <craag> richardeoin: FYI iss packet expected to be swapped back to vhf on thursday.
[14:10] <Darkside> wooo
[14:10] <Darkside> should be able to get it from my car again
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[14:28] <hairgoneJohn> Thanks for your help folks. Bye for now.
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[14:39] <richardeoin> craag: awesome
[14:40] <richardeoin> it's ubseds21 that has the PA for that, hopefully still flying somewhere
[14:42] <burnedfingers> I was wondering if the ISS could be helpful for us at times?
[14:42] <burnedfingers> can one of these low powered balloon trackers really reach it? Has it happened?
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> In principle, yes.
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> In practice, the ISS is rarely up.
[14:47] <richardeoin> it's been done from a latex balloon in the US I believe
[14:48] <richardeoin> but not yet from a long-duration amateur flight, to my knowledge
[14:50] <burnedfingers> iss needs wspr igate
[14:50] <fsphil> too slow
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[14:52] <fsphil> just using FSK over AFSK would help. and there'd be space for several channels in the bandwidth used now
[14:53] <fsphil> it would need fancier hardware than is up there now so not likely to happen :)
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> LASER reciever on ISS would be really cool.
[14:55] Action: Laurenceb_ was looking at Falcon 9 stage 2 reuse
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[14:56] <Laurenceb_> applied the design equation from the reusable saturn V paper, using a 3M nextel hot air ballute
[14:56] <Laurenceb_> works out as about 350kg for the whole system
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
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[14:57] <SpeedEvil> However, is that for helicopter recovery?
[14:57] <Laurenceb_> no, ship with grappler arm
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> (which is 'easy' for this mass)
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> somehow I doubt that
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> but the hot air ballute would be considerably smaller than existing hot air balloons
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[15:00] <Laurenceb_> nylon envelope with 5.2T lifting capacity is "only" £16k
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> 'easy' as in the larger helicopters can simply lift this sort of mass.
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> Whereas this isn't the case for S1
[15:03] <Laurenceb_> the Saturn V recovery studies found that if an inflatable recovery system if made large enough to be radiative cooled, then the whole system neatly doubles as a hot air balloon
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[15:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KA7NSR-7 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KA7NSR-7
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[15:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG5BFV-5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5BFV-5
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[15:34] <ghoti> SA6BSS-Mike: thanks for the kitchen/jewellery scale link. So .. that scale has a USB interface?
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[15:36] <ghoti> SA6BSS-Mike: I'm looking at rolling my own using a load cell and an HX711 amplifier, but an already built solution that requires no calibration would save me some time. :)
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> webcam + vision is easy too
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> and cheaper
[15:38] <ghoti> That would be fun to add too... But how would that detect weight?
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Point it at a cheap scale.
[15:38] <ghoti> Perhaps .. a spring scale with opencv to detect position? :)
[15:38] <ghoti> hah
[15:43] <ghoti> Well, the load cell and hx711 together come to $17 from sparkfun, or <$10 from dealextreme or equiv. I'll think more about that; thanks for the suggestion.
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[15:44] <ghoti> CV might solve other sensor problems I'm having, if I can just figure out how to use it properly.
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[15:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KA7NSR-6 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KA7NSR-6
[16:02] <Laurenceb_> Aviation Officers arrived on scene attempted to carry the individual off of the flight when he fell. His head subsequently struck an armrest causing injuries
[16:02] <Laurenceb_> my sides
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[16:04] <SpeedEvil> ghoti: What's the accuracy?
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[16:42] <ghoti> SpeedEvil: of the load cell? The datasheet for the one Sparkfun sells appears to have a 0.05 %FS for combined error, but that's for a unit with capacity of 3-200kg. Looking for a datasheet for the 10kg unit from dx.com.
[16:44] <ghoti> Heh. Creep: 0.03%FS/30min
[16:49] <ghoti> Okay, all the load cells I've found at banggood.com appear to have combined error of 0.05$FS if they list it at all. Seems pretty standard.
[16:49] <edmoore> what's the application ghoti?
[16:49] <ghoti> s/\$/%/
[16:51] <ghoti> edmoore: two right off the bat -- the immediate one would be to hang our chicken feeder and issue an alarm when the level gets too low. A longer term one (for me anyway) would be for a cargo {quad|hex|octo}copter to detect the load it's carrying.
[16:51] <ghoti> I haven't built the copter yet. :-D
[16:51] <edmoore> coolio
[16:52] <edmoore> well i assume the scales+CV is just someone's sense of humour
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: not quite, it may in some cases be doable with existing hardware.
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> Is it teh right solution, no.
[16:52] <edmoore> no.
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> May it be a usable solution that can be got working today, yes.
[16:53] <ghoti> It's an interesting hack though. :)
[16:53] <edmoore> it's certainly something
[16:53] <edmoore> if you can find a usb something you'll be much happier
[16:53] <edmoore> or diy
[16:53] <ghoti> Though, after seeing that pretty much every load cell datasheet includes "creep", I wonder if this is a good solution for the chicken feeder or any "long-term" load.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> ghoti: but it's not
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> ghoti: you don't care about creep in this application, as it's effectively reset everytime it's filled
[16:54] <ghoti> Since pretty much all electronic scales use load cells, I'd assume creep exists in everything, even if the manufacturer hasn't included it in specs.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> Creep drops significantly when you're not at full scale
[16:54] <edmoore> you're ok with creep
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> Plus, it's a worst case.
[16:54] <edmoore> it's not constant
[16:55] <ghoti> SpeedEvil: At a rate of 0.03%FS per 30 minutes? That could add up. I normally refill the feeder every 5 days or so.
[16:55] <edmoore> more-or-less all the creep you'll see will happen in that 30 mins
[16:55] <edmoore> then it will stop
[16:55] <ghoti> Oh, it'll stop?
[16:55] <edmoore> yes
[16:55] <ghoti> Why would it stop?
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> .03%/30 min, for example, would imply that after 50 days or so, it's crept 100%
[16:55] <ghoti> Yes.
[16:55] <ghoti> Once metal has stretched a little bit, additional force would cause it to stretch .. a little further.
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> If you're not using it to close to the limit - say 30% - creep will be negligible
[16:57] <edmoore> creep doesn't work like that if you're in the elastic region of the material
[16:57] <edmoore> you'll get the bulk response
[16:57] <edmoore> and then you'll get a few metal crystals gradually and slowly sliding a bit relative to each other
[16:57] <ghoti> they why is it express "per 30 minutes" rather than "in the frist 30 minutes"?
[16:58] <edmoore> but it won't keep on creeping until you get close to the yeild stress of the material, and you should be nowhere near that if you're using the load cell within its rated load
[16:58] <ghoti> 0.03%FS/30m would be 6 grams an hour.
[16:58] <ghoti> on the 10kg unti.
[16:58] <edmoore> it might just be chinglish
[16:58] <ghoti> Ah, okay, so THAT RATE of creep depends on a full load?
[16:58] <edmoore> yes, it's a function of load certain;y
[16:58] <ghoti> heh, it might indeed. I imagine most of these are manufactured in Asia.
[16:59] <ghoti> okay, so if I want less creep, buy a higher capacity cell, perhaps up to the point where I'm worried about general accuracy.
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> For your use, it won't creep meaningfully even at full load
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> You are not caring about the weight of the chickenfood to within a percent.
[17:03] <edmoore> exactly
[17:03] <edmoore> you can probably use any-old excitation and so on
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> Plus, in the chicken feeder app, a conventional scale + camera might also tell you stuff about the behaviour of the chickens :)
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[17:10] <edmoore> i'm not sure i'd trust domestic scales and a webcam to last a few seasons outside
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[17:17] <Ian_> I would not trust conventional scale and camera with chickens . . peck, peck, scratch, scratch :)
[17:19] <edmoore> me neither
[17:20] <edmoore> i'd have a load cell and waterproof connectors and be done with it
[17:20] <ghoti> I've already got a Raspberry-pi IR camera and a couple of DS18B20's inside and outside the coop.. Not sure how a second (usb?) camera would work, but ya, I'm happier with the load cell solution.
[17:20] <ghoti> (with all due respect to SpeedEvil ;] )
[17:21] <edmoore> my day job involves putting load cells in harm's way a lot so i'm fairly happy about advising on making them chicken-proof
[17:22] <edmoore> and also, when it comes to quadcopter, making a good amplifier and filter chain with rejection from all the rf and emi you'll get on a quadcopter
[17:23] <ghoti> ah, hadn't thought of interference.
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[17:24] <edmoore> it's definitely a thing
[17:25] <edmoore> load cells produce mV signals that are quite susceptible to local schmoo
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[17:36] <ghoti> Would shielding (around the cell and cable) not be sufficient to mask things? If not, what would a "filter chain" consist of? (Happy to research this myself, just don't know what to look for.)
[17:37] <edmoore> yes, shielded cable (with the shield attached to the circuit, but not the load cell) helps
[17:37] <edmoore> but it's not always enough
[17:37] <edmoore> thankfully, load cell's output a differential signal, as you probably know - you measure the difference between the outputs of the bridge
[17:38] <edmoore> but incoming electrical interference will likely affect both signals the same way, i.e. it'll be common to both the + and - outputs
[17:38] <edmoore> so you can filter out the common-mode stuff while preserving the differential stuff, just before the instrumentation amplifier input
[17:39] <edmoore> that's just a network of resistors and capacitors, or a common-mode choke, depends on the application really
[17:40] <ghoti> So .. twisting the wires might help too, just as UTP is used for Ethernet. (I'm a sysadmin and network guy by day, only a wannabe wrt electronics.)
[17:40] <ghoti> I would guess that tighter twists would cause interference to impact the signal more consistently.
[17:41] <edmoore> you're exactly right
[17:41] Action: ghoti dances a little jig
[17:42] <edmoore> so for my work i often use a cable which has 3 shielded twisted pairs, for load cells
[17:42] <edmoore> one pair powers the bridge
[17:42] <edmoore> one pair measures the output
[17:43] <edmoore> and the final pair is used to sense the voltage being delivered to the bridge to make sure it's exactly right (to compensate for losses from the resistance of tha cable) - this last excitation-sensing pair is only necessary for very precise applications
[17:44] <edmoore> but if you get shielded cat5 or something you're laughing as it's perfect for load cells too
[17:46] <ghoti> Shielded cat5/6 is what I was thinking, and I have plenty of it around. Your wiring layout makes perfect sense.
[17:46] <edmoore> here is an example signal-processing chain for one of my dataloggers
[17:46] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldpzx0j4obl3se9/Screenshot%202017-04-11%2018.40.56.png?dl=0
[17:46] <edmoore> the left-most stuff is the common-mode filter
[17:46] <edmoore> the ad8221 is a nice instrumentation amplifier
[17:47] <edmoore> and the stuff to the right is an anti-alias filter
[17:47] <adamgreig> disappointed in your rectangular inst amp symbol
[17:47] <edmoore> yes sorry about that
[17:47] <edmoore> it's vestigial
[17:47] <edmoore> i'm on kicad now
[17:48] <adamgreig> all is forgiven
[17:52] <edmoore> ghoti: if you're feeling fancy you can also get D-connectors with built-in filters that will cut out all the really high frequency RF stuff like wifi
[17:52] <edmoore> they go straight into the chassis of the case
[17:53] <Vaizki> the church of HAB
[18:00] <ghoti> Okay, this is getting complex now... :) So .. the AD8221 is an amplifier? Like an HX711? I'm looking at getting a pre-built HX711 module intended for arduino that I'd hook up to a GPIO on the R-Pi.
[18:00] <ghoti> I admit to being an idiot, but I don't see how I'd use your schematic and I don't know enough to know why you'd be using an AD8221. (Why are you using an AD8221?)
[18:03] <edmoore> not silly questions at all
[18:04] <edmoore> so the load cell is, internally, a bunch of resistors arranged in a diamond pattern known as a 'Whetsone Bridge'
[18:04] <edmoore> the details don't matter that much, but the point is that the full load on the load cell might give an output from the load cell of maybe 30mV
[18:05] <edmoore> a typical analog-to-digital converter (adc) might have an input range of 5V
[18:05] <edmoore> so if you were to connect the load cell directly to the adc, you'd only be using 0.03/5= 0.6% of its input range
[18:06] <edmoore> and that would severely limit the resolution you had available
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[18:07] <edmoore> if it was, say, a 12bit ADC, that means it could divide up it's 5V input range into 4096 chunks, which work out at being 1.2mV each
[18:07] <ghoti> Thanks, I do get the importance of the amplifier. Is your choice of AD8221 based on what you need to interface it with?
[18:07] <edmoore> sure, so the ad8221 is just a very good instrumentation amplifier
[18:07] <edmoore> it has low drift
[18:08] <edmoore> it has low input offset voltage
[18:08] <edmoore> in reject common-mode interference well
[18:08] <edmoore> what your hx711 is is a higher-level component
[18:08] <edmoore> it is both an amplifier and an analog-to-digital converter all in one
[18:08] <edmoore> designed very specifically for this application
[18:09] <edmoore> it will work absolutely great for what you have in mind
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[18:12] <ghoti> Whew. Okay, thanks. :)
[18:13] <edmoore> You've done it in python, i've done it in C
[18:13] <edmoore> result will be the same
[18:14] <edmoore> (my bad attaempt at IT anaology, forgive me)
[18:14] <ghoti> Ah, I thought you were being literal!
[18:15] <ghoti> (i.e. C programming for your microcontroller, whatever that is)
[18:15] <edmoore> going to grab dinner bbl
[18:15] <ghoti> Thanks again.
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[20:39] Nick change: laurence_ -> Laurenceb_
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[21:52] <Laurenceb_> https://imagebin.ca/v/3IkJZnbEr1B6
[21:52] Action: Laurenceb_ is paying with spin stabilisation ideas
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 12 2017