highaltitude.log.20170403

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[01:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KJ4TDM-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TDM-11
[01:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[04:00] <Cmurphy_> I have developed a high Altitude balloon program with a high school called high altitude achievement. I am looking for a very light weight tracker to use in our balloon payloads to track them. I found yours and would like to know if you build them for school use. Kd2mrv
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[04:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS4 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS4
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[05:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[09:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03YO6PES_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YO6PES_chase
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[09:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-22 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-22
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[10:51] <AndyEsser> morning
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[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Neat. Laurenceb - On the topic of guided parafoils - http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37727.780
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> F9 fairing apparently under the control of a parafoil (I don't think there are good pics) PLans to recover on a 'bouncy castle'.
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> https://youtu.be/jC3LQFpuzqs?t=740
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> 'The fairing has its own thrust vector control system and a steerable parachute'
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> 'Intact fairing floating in the ocean'
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[11:26] <fsphil> that's just showing off
[11:26] <russss> nice
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> 60% of the cost in the first stage recovering. ~8% of the cost recovered in the fairing. This is starting to look like a reusable rocket.
[11:28] Nick change: SopaXorzTaker -> z
[11:29] Nick change: z -> SopaXorzTaker
[11:30] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, I want to launch my piece of junk-satellite cheaply
[11:31] <SpeedEvil> Me too.
[11:31] <SopaXorzTaker> I have developed plans for a satellite you can build with items from a local hardware store
[11:31] <SpeedEvil> Getting something to work in space is not particularly hard.
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> Getting it to work for very long, with several 9s reliability is.
[11:32] <SopaXorzTaker> well
[11:33] <SopaXorzTaker> To build one of my design, you would have to obtain a wireless doorbell, some calculators, electical tape and two AA/AAA NiMH rechargeables
[11:34] <SopaXorzTaker> also, something containing an atmega
[11:34] <SopaXorzTaker> (or a PIC/STM32/whatever)
[11:34] <AndyEsser> why rechargeables with no solar panels?
[11:35] <AndyEsser> ah... salvaged from the calculators?
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> A phone, a USB solar charger
[11:35] <SopaXorzTaker> yup
[11:36] <SopaXorzTaker> we need similar plans for an orbital launch vehicle
[11:36] <SopaXorzTaker> :D
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> I have a couple of sheets of A4 here.
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> Alas, due to reasons I never got it developed properly :(
[11:36] <Vaizki> I want an orbital lunch vehicle
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> Basic idea was low performance bipropellant with 5:1 rocket-payload ratio, and 4 stages or so.
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> every stage similar performance and testable under parachute.
[11:38] <SopaXorzTaker> Junksat can be quickly and easily built in a zombie apocalypse scenario
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[11:40] <SopaXorzTaker> so, basically you find items containing rechargeable batteries (a power bank?), some solar panels, preferably powerful enough to charge the power bank, a microcontroller and a radio TX module
[11:43] <Vaizki> I want you in my zombie apocalypse survival team
[11:43] <Vaizki> as bait
[11:43] <Vaizki> :)
[11:45] <SopaXorzTaker> :P
[11:45] <edmoore> i don't think you can launch anything into orbit easily
[11:45] <edmoore> with junk stuff
[11:46] <SopaXorzTaker> edmoore, okay
[11:46] <SopaXorzTaker> hold this little parachute, you'll be the test payload
[11:46] <edmoore> i certainly don't think you can cheaply send something of my mass into orbit
[11:48] <edmoore> and it doesn't scale down especially elegantly
[11:48] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: 4 stages sounds like a bit of a mare
[11:48] <SopaXorzTaker> edmoore, well
[11:49] <SopaXorzTaker> the bottle rocket will be glued between your legs
[11:49] <edmoore> how many stages of bottle rocket did you have in mind
[11:49] <SopaXorzTaker> one
[11:50] <SopaXorzTaker> and I am afraid to glue the pressurized section out of pieces with epoxy
[11:50] <edmoore> i don't think you can doa a single stage bottle rocket to orbit
[11:50] <SopaXorzTaker> edmoore, no
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: In some aspects, if you care about performance. I was aiming at ~0.1% payload mass, which eases things off a little, and testing of every stage multiple times before flight.
[11:50] <SopaXorzTaker> but we'll see how you would perform :D
[11:51] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, orbital?
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: However, I never got far enough that I can make sensible comments about how it would have gone.
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> SopaXorzTaker: yes
[11:51] <SopaXorzTaker> model?
[11:51] <SopaXorzTaker> orbital model rocket?
[11:51] <SopaXorzTaker> D:
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> SopaXorzTaker: the idea was ~500kg first stage, 100kg second stage, going down to about a kilo or so payload
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> So not 'model' by anyones reasonable standard.
[11:52] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, uhm
[11:52] <SopaXorzTaker> how would you launch *that*?
[11:52] <SopaXorzTaker> it's a bullet
[11:52] <SopaXorzTaker> and a very heavy one
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> Light the blue touchpaper, and stand well back.
[11:52] <SopaXorzTaker> that can fall on your head
[11:52] <edmoore> launch it out to sea!
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> yes, of course it can kill you.
[11:52] <edmoore> but you'd have a devil of a time getting permission
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> Permission?
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> But yes - permission would have been in some ways possibly the hardest part.
[11:53] <edmoore> yes
[11:53] <edmoore> there's probably only one range near you
[11:54] <edmoore> they would probably enjoy the idea if you were serious, but there's annoying legislation about civilian use (and corresponding prices)
[11:54] <edmoore> and a lot of paperwork
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> The costs are waived if you can get association with a university.
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> (if you mean space act costs)
[11:54] <edmoore> no
[11:55] <edmoore> i don't
[11:55] <edmoore> i mean range fees
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[11:56] <edmoore> but if you honestly went to them with a first stage for development flights they'd probably be quite interested and you could build up a good relationship
[11:56] <edmoore> and that will help a lot with the range safety cases as you add stages
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> The idea was to be scalable to a degree, and test the smallest stage first.
[11:57] <edmoore> that would still be a substatial thing though, presumably
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> Get experience, and scale 5*, repeat
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> ~5kg total.
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> (for the top)
[11:57] <edmoore> oh
[11:57] <edmoore> i was thinking about the 500kg stage
[11:57] <edmoore> that would presumably get into space by itself
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> No, very much not.
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> Very, very crap mass ratio and heavy.
[11:58] <edmoore> how?
[11:58] <edmoore> if you convert it into a single stage sounding rocket for test purposes?
[11:59] <edmoore> i can't see how any practical design of that mass couldn't parabolically pop above 100km
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> Apologies, I was listening to something else, and they said 'orbital'
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> Though the 500kg stage is horribly constrained by drag.
[12:00] <edmoore> sure but getting above 100km should still be no problem
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> And was intended for a fairly slow ascent losing much to gravity and not going much above mach 1
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[12:00] <edmoore> unless it has the proportions of a pancake
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> It can get to space, not orbitally though
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> (of course)
[12:01] <edmoore> wyzat?
[12:01] <edmoore> not going above mach1
[12:01] <edmoore> mach1 is a very inefficient place to be, as Cd is usually highest there
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> Staying below, rather.
[12:02] <edmoore> this sounds most irregular
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> Up to ~10km or so, the drag on a 500kg rocket is very, very nasty.
[12:02] <edmoore> oh right yes, sure
[12:02] <edmoore> but you want to haul bottom after that
[12:02] <edmoore> i'm with you on boost-sustain for the lower atmosphere
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> The simple simulations with sort-of-realistic drag estimates indicated that it used less fuel to simply accellerate hard to mach 1 and coast
[12:03] <edmoore> that's exactly how we'd do things for sounding rockets
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> If you're 10 tons, then it doesn't matter so much
[12:05] <SopaXorzTaker> you seem too happy guys
[12:05] <SopaXorzTaker> read this http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/122.html
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> Why? That looks awesome.
[12:06] <edmoore> i have read it
[12:06] <edmoore> i think i've read all of james miller's articles
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> If you mean 'it reentered' - well yes.
[12:06] <edmoore> he's a good nerd
[12:08] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, for the last orbits, one or more solar panels or instruments failed
[12:09] <edmoore> this was fun too http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/126.html
[12:09] <SopaXorzTaker> short: the poor satellite felt the imminent pain of reentry, each round brought more pain until it finally burned up
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> SopaXorzTaker: that is entirely expected
[12:09] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, expected
[12:09] <SopaXorzTaker> but painful to read
[12:10] <SopaXorzTaker> that's how I was in orbit in KSP
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> I suggest you avoid basically all literature and commit yourself to a furry pink-lined room.
[12:10] <SopaXorzTaker> it was eccentric and the perigee was just in the atmosphere
[12:10] <SopaXorzTaker> (40km)
[12:10] <edmoore> 'just' in the atmosphere is 200km
[12:10] <SopaXorzTaker> The orbit was rapidly decaying, but lasted for three rounds
[12:10] <edmoore> 40km is leroy jenkins
[12:10] <SopaXorzTaker> KSP
[12:10] <SopaXorzTaker> not earth :D
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> 40km you can orbit, but you need a tungsten telephone pole.
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> Actually - possibly rather more than that
[12:11] <edmoore> i'm afraid i've not played KSP
[12:11] <SopaXorzTaker> I mean, my KSP orbit was not considered an orbit by the game, as the perigee was in the atmosphere
[12:11] <edmoore> i am pretty certain that nothing would make it round 1 orbit at 40km SpeedEvil
[12:11] <Laurenceb> sup
[12:11] <edmoore> unless it was massively accentric
[12:11] <edmoore> eccentric*
[12:11] Action: Laurenceb had a go at n-prize designs
[12:11] <SopaXorzTaker> but the orbit lasted for some time
[12:11] <Laurenceb> it seemed like a no brainer to me
[12:12] <edmoore> yes us too, you remember
[12:12] <Laurenceb> off the shelf Cesaroni HPR reloads in custom CF tubes
[12:12] <edmoore> but orbit is hard
[12:12] <Laurenceb> and rockoon
[12:12] <Laurenceb> yeah I decided to scale down and try for 100km
[12:12] <Laurenceb> even that would be a massive achievement for amateur
[12:12] <Laurenceb> and stands a chance of actually being done
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> I was thinking of 60km, I think.
[12:13] <edmoore> the 100km rockoon is a really nice idea
[12:13] <edmoore> i hope you manage it
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> (as a minimum orbit for a stupidly dense projectile) Checking numbers, 40km is ridiculoius
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> It is.
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> Also shows how much still hasn't been tried.
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> There isn't much reason it couldn't have been done in the 60s
[12:16] <edmoore> a 60km orbit?
[12:16] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, KSP
[12:16] <SopaXorzTaker> KSP != real-lifew
[12:16] <SopaXorzTaker> life**
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> No
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> I mean Laurenceb's thing
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[12:17] <SpeedEvil> there is no especial reason to orbit a tungsten telegraph pole.
[12:18] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:18] <SopaXorzTaker> SpeedEvil, there is
[12:18] <SopaXorzTaker> make it 1m long and poof
[12:18] <SopaXorzTaker> a ham radio reflector
[12:19] <Laurenceb> well if you launch something other than an awful Estes motor its kind of trivial to get to 100km from ~35km... if you can stay pointing upwards
[12:19] <edmoore> i wonder if any amateurs have bounced signals off satellites
[12:19] <edmoore> passively
[12:19] <Laurenceb> that last part is 99.9% of the problem
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: do LASERs count?
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> I'm pretty sure I saw LASER lighting of satellites
[12:20] <Laurenceb> nasasspaceflight stealing my ideaz https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41224.0
[12:20] <edmoore> i suppose they do, though that's not what I had in mind
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[12:20] <edmoore> i don't know why you go on that webpage Laurenceb
[12:21] <Laurenceb> heh, talking of that horrifying forum, the emdrive paper reaffirmed my faith in peer review
[12:21] <Laurenceb> despite the fact it passed peer review, they at least had to include enough data that any sane person can see it's bunk
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - that doesn't mean anyone will read that data though.
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> You just read the press release and that tells you all you need to write an article.
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[12:22] <Laurenceb> comparing published papers to news articles is always darkly amusing/depressing
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> Currently reading medical papers - the quality of the science is shocking often.
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> Stats
[12:23] <edmoore> SopaXorzTaker: i missed everything earlier, but if you're proposing making a hab payload that lasts indefinitely from junk stuff then that's super and sounds very interesting
[12:23] <Laurenceb> yeah I've run up against that
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> 'no, you can't assume a nonlinear questionaire scale is normally distributed, and make statistical assumptions based on that'
[12:23] <Laurenceb> had regular arguments with my supervisor when I rolled my own analysis tools
[12:24] <SopaXorzTaker> edmoore, actually a satellite
[12:24] <SopaXorzTaker> but would be a good hab too
[12:24] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
[12:24] <edmoore> well a hab is probably a more practical first thing to try
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[12:24] <SpeedEvil> I especially like one paper which touted their treatment as causing 'recovery' in the abstract, and if you look into the SF36 results, you find that 'recovery' is to a level equivalent to patients in end-stage congestive heart failure.
[12:25] <Laurenceb> medical science suffers from overuse of off the shelf stats packages without in depth knowledge
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> HAB lets you test lots of interesting stuff in sort-of-relevant ways.
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> Solar, remote mission with limited contact, thermal, instrumentation, it's a great first step.
[12:25] <Laurenceb> in many ways it's more challenging, especially thermally
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: then you send it out for peer review, and the peer reviewers ignore the stats, because they never were that good at stats, and concentrate on the biology alleged.
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> And positioning if you're trying to point it at stuff
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> Though at least you have a consistent 'down' which helps in many ways.
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[12:28] <SpeedEvil> Slant ranges can be quite comparable to sat-ground station too
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[12:31] <SpeedEvil> And atmospheric column of course
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyu_Mi69Tr0 - I found fascinating.
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> Retrieval of Chlorophyll Fluorescence from Space - Christian Frankenberg
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately seems impractical from HAB, as you need really quite accurate indeed spectrometers.
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> Determining plant cover using chlorophyl fluorescance.
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[13:25] <Laurenceb> !whereis HIRFW-3
[13:25] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb: 03HIRFW-3 was over 03North Pacific Ocean 10(22.10607,-141.70452) at 0313999 meters about 0310 hours ago
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[13:40] <M0TVU> Afternoon all. Finally got my shack back. Hope to be tracking again soon
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[13:50] <fsphil> nice, wb
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[14:13] <fab4space> hello all
[14:14] <fab4space> do you guys have tried the new ST S2-LP RF chip?
[14:14] <fab4space> it support "direct polar modulation" "controlling directly the amplitude
[14:14] <fab4space> and the frequency of the carrier synthesized"
[14:14] <fab4space> seems interesting for DBPSK and other modulation at reasonable bitrates
[14:15] <fab4space> ST provides the libraries for STM32 chips
[14:15] <fab4space> and a NUCLEO board for 43x Mhz is coming soon
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[14:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TI2CVJ - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TI2CVJ
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[14:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UTCO_LORA - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UTCO_LORA
[14:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UTCO_RTTY - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UTCO_RTTY
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[14:52] <Laurenceb> v interesting
[14:53] <Laurenceb> I'll have a read
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[14:55] <fab4space> ok Laurenceb thanks
[14:56] <fab4space> it seems to be an evolution of the SPIRIT1 chip, including most the CC1125 features and they have included this direct polar mode for SigFox modulation at least
[14:58] <Laurenceb> nice
[14:59] <Laurenceb> spirit1 was a little lacking
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[14:59] <Laurenceb> SP1ML modules looked good but in practice they utterly suck
[14:59] <Laurenceb> about 5% of the theoretical throughput
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[15:05] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[15:05] <Laurenceb> you can do the same thing with silabs
[15:05] <Laurenceb> nothing amazing there, they just made it a little simpler to configure
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[15:13] <fab4space> ok Laurenceb
[15:13] <fab4space> it seems to be very close to CC1125 in terms of spec and features
[15:14] <Laurenceb> Leo managed similar "tricks" with silabs
[15:14] <Laurenceb> to tx psk
[15:14] Nick change: MoALTz_ -> MoALTz
[15:14] <Laurenceb> but S2-LP would probably allow for simple QAM
[15:15] <Laurenceb> like maybe up to 16QAM
[15:15] <adamgreig> getting amplitude control would be nice
[15:15] <adamgreig> not sure how much benefit there is to 16qa
[15:15] <adamgreig> m for our sorts of channels
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[15:15] <adamgreig> vs higher rate 2/4 psk
[15:15] <Laurenceb> yeah it takes sets of 2 bytes into tx fifo
[15:15] <Laurenceb> frequency and PA setting
[15:16] <fab4space> 8 bits resolution for both freq shift and PA
[15:16] <adamgreig> nice
[15:16] <adamgreig> can it demodulate that onboard too?
[15:16] <fab4space> no adamgreig
[15:16] <Laurenceb> fab2space: its eclipsed by silabs for rx performance and features
[15:16] <adamgreig> like can it spit out qam points
[15:16] <adamgreig> the silabs modules are pretty rocking once you have the configuration down pat
[15:16] <adamgreig> my si446x driver is now 1500 lines or something
[15:17] <fab4space> I remember adamgreig when we talked about how to do BPSK with FSK 1 year ago on this channel :)
[15:17] <adamgreig> and I'm still not doing the rx filters properly, or setting a few other loop params
[15:17] <adamgreig> haha yea
[15:17] <adamgreig> these days I'm just doing narrowband gmsk as being able to demod it on-board is nice
[15:17] <Laurenceb> fab4space: the S2-LP is doing what we discussed
[15:17] <fab4space> yes bidirectionnal comm is better adamgreig
[15:18] <Laurenceb> englishman is making some AXSEMI (now ON) modules aiui
[15:18] <Laurenceb> but the documentation is a mess
[15:18] <englishman> yeah
[15:18] <englishman> the demo tool
[15:18] <Laurenceb> PSK and FEC are both a pain?
[15:18] <englishman> literally has seekrit codes to enter in random boxes
[15:18] <englishman> to enable advancved features
[15:18] <Laurenceb> so most of the advantages relative to silabs go out of the window
[15:18] <englishman> pretty much
[15:18] <englishman> especiall in small q
[15:18] <fab4space> but if we can do QPSK with this chip , add conv code, interleaver and RS, we have a DVB-S narrowband modulator :p nice for pictures in HAB
[15:18] <englishman> they are cheap for volume so more interesting
[15:19] <fab4space> do you have reference englishman ?
[15:19] <englishman> ?
[15:19] <adamgreig> I guess dvb-s would be nice but I think we can do better than conv+interleave+RS for fec
[15:20] <fab4space> yes LDPC onboard
[15:20] <adamgreig> so I have ldpc working nicely and it's pretty close to capacity
[15:20] <fab4space> nice!
[15:20] <adamgreig> but want to work more on getting soft information out of the si chips
[15:20] <adamgreig> if your rx is hard bits only you can only do so much
[15:20] <fab4space> which SI446x has better performance than S2 LP?
[15:21] <adamgreig> they all have the same receive unit
[15:21] <Laurenceb> adamgreig: silabs have a raw IQ output mode
[15:21] <adamgreig> only differ in tx power
[15:21] <Laurenceb> using the GPIO
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[15:21] <adamgreig> I know
[15:21] <adamgreig> but it's the adc sigma-delta train
[15:21] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:21] <Laurenceb> latest stm32 has hardware sigma-delta decode...
[15:21] <adamgreig> it's annoyingly too high clock rate for the stm32 hardware decoder actually
[15:22] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:22] <adamgreig> quite a few MHz out of spec
[15:22] <adamgreig> but also it's so early in the silabs rx chain
[15:22] <adamgreig> so you'd have to reimplement a lot of things
[15:22] <adamgreig> unless you could try and synchronise it to the digital outputs
[15:22] <Laurenceb> could you oversample with the bit clock?
[15:22] <adamgreig> maaaaybe
[15:22] <Laurenceb> or would BCR then break?
[15:22] <adamgreig> yea
[15:22] <adamgreig> so I think you can do it
[15:23] <adamgreig> the BCR is very configurable
[15:23] <Laurenceb> yeah, too :P
[15:23] <adamgreig> but I don't fully understand the loop settings for it
[15:23] <Laurenceb> tons of undocumented registers
[15:23] <adamgreig> once I have my driver generating those itself properly I think I can probably do it
[15:23] <Laurenceb> this sounds like an impressive project
[15:23] <adamgreig> oversampling the bit clock has annoying implications for preamble and sync word detection too
[15:23] <fab4space> adamgreig, is the SI446x is better than CC1125 for RX ?
[15:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:23] <Laurenceb> fab4space: I'd say so
[15:24] <adamgreig> I haven't compared them directly
[15:24] <Laurenceb> fab4space: board I made a couple of years ago https://imagebin.ca/v/3HoICtqFMMHg
[15:24] <adamgreig> I thin kthe si446x could end up better in many situations because of the intense configurability
[15:24] <adamgreig> so e.g. both ends of my link have 0.5ppm TCXOs which means I can use insanely tight receive filters
[15:24] <Laurenceb> si446x and stm32
[15:25] <Laurenceb> I used ~0.5ppm tcxo but also bual filter settings
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[15:25] <Laurenceb> so it has ~ +-1.5ppm pull in
[15:25] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/albums/72157673952468614
[15:25] <Laurenceb> then narrows it
[15:25] <adamgreig> yea I'm also using dual filter settings
[15:25] <adamgreig> I have other problems, my doppler shift is way higher than my inherent inaccuracy, lol
[15:26] <Laurenceb> in theory you can track that
[15:26] <adamgreig> yes
[15:26] <Laurenceb> if you continually bounce packets off it
[15:26] <adamgreig> but I'm actually measuring it to estimate velocity so..
[15:26] <Laurenceb> I considered that for single station rockoon tracking
[15:26] <adamgreig> I'm also measuring packet time of flight for tlat
[15:26] <Laurenceb> neat, using silabs?
[15:27] <adamgreig> yea
[15:27] <adamgreig> they have the reliable timing mode
[15:27] <Laurenceb> really
[15:27] <Laurenceb> thats an actual mode?
[15:27] <adamgreig> it gets you transmit within one clock period
[15:27] <adamgreig> from CS deasserting on the TX_STATE command
[15:27] <adamgreig> I mean
[15:27] <adamgreig> exactly 150 clock periods later
[15:27] <Laurenceb> ah yeah I think i saw that in datasheet
[15:27] <adamgreig> but synchronised to within a single period
[15:28] <adamgreig> on the receive side you can get the same from the sync word detection interrupt on gpio
[15:28] <Laurenceb> nice
[15:28] <adamgreig> you're talking tens of metres absolute best case but I want within 100s which seems probably ok
[15:28] <adamgreig> no results yet though so take this with a grain of salt lol
[15:28] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[15:28] <Laurenceb> yeah I've seen a couple of published articles using this for indoor positioning
[15:28] <adamgreig> there are a bunch of chips for doing indoor pos with this concept
[15:29] <Laurenceb> prob too much to go wrong for rockoon tracking
[15:29] <adamgreig> http://www.ti.com/product/tdc7200
[15:29] <Laurenceb> but it might be worth a few sim runs....
[15:29] <Laurenceb> ooh thats a bice ic
[15:30] <adamgreig> and it's like £4 or something
[15:30] <Laurenceb> 35ps std O_o
[15:30] <adamgreig> 55ps resolution is about 1cm
[15:30] <adamgreig> it's just a back to back ring oscillator and ripple counter, lol
[15:30] <adamgreig> but anyway yea bit intense
[15:30] <adamgreig> maximum measurement period is 8ms
[15:31] <adamgreig> which is enough for quite a long light time of flight
[15:31] <Laurenceb> just stm32 timers would be fine
[15:31] <adamgreig> stm32 timers struggle beyond 100MHz
[15:31] <adamgreig> but yes that's what I'm using
[15:31] <adamgreig> because the silabs clock is like 30MHz or so
[15:31] <adamgreig> so your error is within one of those clock periods anyway
[15:31] <Laurenceb> 10m is nothing
[15:31] <adamgreig> obviously doing various tricks afterwards to average and model the things
[15:31] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[15:32] Action: Laurenceb pictures standalone box with lcd on the front
[15:32] <adamgreig> hah
[15:32] <Laurenceb> spits out rockoon apogee
[15:32] <adamgreig> we have one of those in a nice pelicase
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[15:32] <adamgreig> or anyway will do soon, some undergrads are working on the pcb atm
[15:33] <Laurenceb> yeah I'll see how much more stable a measurement of absolute distance with +-10m jitter is
[15:33] <Laurenceb> rather than differential doppler between two sites
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> still has the failure mode of poor rx signal strength on 868mhz
[15:34] <adamgreig> yea
[15:34] <Laurenceb> 868 is more congested than the 434 used for launch command uplink
[15:35] <Laurenceb> also the rockoon might be 200 or 300km slant range away
[15:35] <adamgreig> also questions about what you time
[15:35] <adamgreig> total RTT will involve a bunch of jitter from the mcu if it needs to round trip through the system
[15:35] <adamgreig> otherwise you need to know the time transmission started on the remote side
[15:35] <Laurenceb> not if it goes into a timer
[15:35] <adamgreig> I mean, if you send a packet and start timing, the receiver has to get the packet, process it, generate a return packet, send it
[15:35] <Laurenceb> you can remove jitter on the micro quite easily with timers
[15:36] <adamgreig> hmm yea ok I guess you can actually
[15:36] <Laurenceb> just need CS to be a timer output
[15:36] <adamgreig> we have the CS on the si wired to a timer output
[15:36] <adamgreig> for that reason
[15:36] <adamgreig> but we were deriving a timebase from gps
[15:36] <Laurenceb> someone needs to fly an rfi measurement cubesat
[15:37] <adamgreig> no reason we couldn't round trip though
[15:37] <fab4space> nice board Laurenceb !
[15:38] <fab4space> nice LAB01 adamgreig :)
[15:38] <Laurenceb> a lot comes down to what the link margin is and if the inversion is more or less numerically stable
[15:38] <Laurenceb> 2 ground stations isnt really that hard to arrange
[15:39] <Laurenceb> I'll have to run a bunch of sims and see how well they converge :D
[15:39] <Laurenceb> anyway, nice talking, bbl
[15:40] <fab4space> ok adamgreig you can use really narrow filter is freq is stable on both ends and SI446x allow you to use these very narrow filters for rx
[15:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RICOH - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RICOH
[15:40] <fab4space> thanks Laurenceb adamgreig
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[16:42] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BSS4 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BSS4
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[19:48] <tweetBot> @AmsatUK: #Argentina HF #AmateurRadio balloon 14095.6 kHz #WSPR to fly to S.Africa & beyond Apr8 https://t.co/Lx7SPEbR1V #amsat #hamradio #hamr #ukhas
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[20:52] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KJ4TDM-11 after 0318 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TDM-11
[21:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-23 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-23
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[22:19] <RocketBoy> .track 53655dc0bb258d6a69fc03f4f8a0583b
[22:19] <SpacenearUS> 03RocketBoy: Here you go - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=53655dc0bb258d6a69fc03f4f8a0583b
[22:21] <RocketBoy> .track d76d6a1b3ddfa259fd51fb358d9bc1be
[22:21] <SpacenearUS> 03RocketBoy: Here you go - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=d76d6a1b3ddfa259fd51fb358d9bc1be
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[22:29] <Laurenceb_> https://imgur.com/gallery/qa2rB
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> warning huge images
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> looks like damaged fairing
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[22:52] Kodar (~Kodar@93-139-212-113.adsl.net.t-com.hr) left irc:
[22:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-1 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-1
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[00:00] --- Tue Apr 4 2017