highaltitude.log.20170304

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[02:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK2HAB-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK2HAB-11
[02:59] <DL7AD> good morning
[03:15] Nick change: jiffe_ -> jiffe
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[04:40] <ve6azx> well, I have a bit of a dilemma. My micro balloon payload is pretty much done, but weighs 42 grams. I think this is too heavy to float, right?
[04:40] <ve6azx> If I gave it the usual 1 gram of free lift... what do you think would happen?
[05:11] <SpeedEvil> Too heavy to float isn't really a thing.
[05:11] <SpeedEvil> The float altitude goes down.
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[05:27] <ve6azx> SpeedEvil: any way to estimate the altitude given a load and the 36 inch silver balloons? Rules of thumb? I could also calculate it by matching forces I guess
[05:28] <SpeedEvil> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html has a useful table.
[05:29] <SpeedEvil> For a mylar balloon, you let it go partially inflated typically, and it then expands as it rises, with a constant lift until the balloon becomes rigid, and the lift theafter rapidly tapers.
[05:29] <ve6azx> thanks
[05:29] <ve6azx> I'm waiting on my solar cells to show up - takes forever from china
[05:30] <ve6azx> was going to send a test with three lithium AAA's for power.
[05:30] <SpeedEvil> So, for example, 3km is 90% of the density of air at 0km. If you fill the balloon 90% of the way, it will rise all teh way up to 3km, and then become rigid.
[05:31] <SpeedEvil> If, at that point, your balloon still has positive lift (the lift will be the same as on the ground to a first approximation) it will continue to rise until the density is equal.
[05:32] <ve6azx> right, that makes sense
[05:32] <ve6azx> I could go full newton's laws on this but the practical rule is what I was looking for. thanks!
[05:33] <SpeedEvil> So if you have - say - a 50g payload balloon, with 10g free lift, then it will rise to 3km, then rise enough again that the weight of air displaced by the volume of the balloon is 10g.
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[05:38] <ve6azx> looks like 10k feet given what you've told me - a ~46 g payload can just barely be lifted by a mylar balloon at 70 percent capacity - and the 70 percent mark is at ~10k
[05:38] <ve6azx> I wonder if I could use 2 or 3 balloons to boost this
[05:38] <SpeedEvil> In principle, yes.
[05:39] <SpeedEvil> Tangling is an issue
[05:39] <SpeedEvil> And a bigger balloon may use less helium.
[05:39] <SpeedEvil> you may also want to consider hydrogen
[05:39] <ve6azx> you know
[05:39] <ve6azx> they wouldn't sell me H when I asked
[05:40] <ve6azx> said I'd have to be vetted first, since it was dangerous
[05:40] <ve6azx> the good news is I got a university price on He, a T tank for 130 dollars and no rental charge.
[05:41] <SpeedEvil> That's not horribly bad
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[05:41] Nick change: daey_ -> daey
[05:41] <ve6azx> in any case, it looks like 2 of these 36 inch ones filled only to 35 percent will lift to ~ 20,000 feet
[05:41] <SIbot12> In real units: 20,000 ft = 6096 m
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[05:41] <ve6azx> which is pretty good
[05:42] Action: ve6azx shrugs, does what they can
[05:42] <ve6azx> the usual price is apparently 300
[06:02] <ve6azx> do most people doing micro balloons use hydrogen?
[06:08] SopaXorzTaker (~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker) joined #highaltitude.
[06:08] <SpeedEvil> ve6azx: no
[06:09] <ve6azx> I see
[06:09] <ve6azx> just dangerous?
[06:09] <ve6azx> leaks out faster?
[06:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-6 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-6
[06:14] <SpeedEvil> ve6azx: harder to get for some
[06:14] <SpeedEvil> though often cheaper
[06:14] <SpeedEvil> Marginally more lift
[06:15] <ve6azx> got it
[06:16] <ve6azx> what's everyone's favorite fm transmit module, assuming aprs or such is what they use?
[06:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03vk5ix_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=vk5ix_chase
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[07:39] <SA6BSS-Mike> ve6azx: moste use si44xx - si4463 or some of it siblings or Radiometrix HX1 Radio Module
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[08:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
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[09:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KK6PNN-5 after 0317 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KK6PNN-5
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[09:24] <PE2BZ> !flights
[09:24] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03Horus 43 10(8c3e), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5), 03UBSEDS21 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(2e88)
[09:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL7AD-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL7AD-12
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[10:20] Nick change: bradfirj -> bradfier
[10:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> dl7ad: aprs only on your flight?
[10:56] <PB0AHX> GM all
[11:24] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03M10WX-11 after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M10WX-11
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[11:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[12:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03harjinder_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=harjinder_chase
[12:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-3 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-3
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[15:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE0SS-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE0SS-12
[15:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-11
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[15:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03AC6MH-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AC6MH-11
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[16:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE0GIQ-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE0GIQ-11
[16:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-22 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-22
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[17:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MOJAVE-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MOJAVE-11
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[19:12] <Laurenceb> https://gfycat.com/SaneVengefulKakarikis
[19:12] <Laurenceb> a lot wrong but all the principles are there
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[20:14] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[20:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 037 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
[20:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5QI-9_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5QI-9_chase
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[22:18] <richardeoin> Laurenceb: nice, any idea what the spin rate what?
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[22:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HORUSLORA1 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HORUSLORA1
[22:45] <Laurenceb> it was about 300hz
[22:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HORUS - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HORUS
[23:01] <Laurenceb> richardeoin: there are probably at least 2 issues, the vertical thrust seems to be revered with the spin vanes attached, and the igniter jams in the spin vanes and probably damages them
[23:02] <Laurenceb> I found one half, but too dark and wet to go searching around now for the second
[23:02] <Laurenceb> oddly the half I found was undamaged, so mystery deepens
[23:02] <Laurenceb> theres clear damage in the video tho
[23:04] <Laurenceb> https://ibin.co/3ERUwLDUbIO8.jpg
[23:04] <richardeoin> ah right
[23:04] <richardeoin> that's pretty mangled
[23:05] <Laurenceb> I know why the thrust was reversed, weird flow separation
[23:05] <richardeoin> tis weird
[23:05] <richardeoin> can that be fixed?
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[23:18] <Laurenceb> dunno
[23:18] <Laurenceb> need to understand it first
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[23:27] <Laurenceb> its very likely that the flow separation problem will disappear at altitude - I knew there would be sep at SLP anyway, but thought the flow would cling to the bottom, not do an abrupt turn
[23:28] <Laurenceb> guess its some sort of shock wave behaviour
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[23:30] <Laurenceb> just after it leaves tube only two vanes have flow https://ibin.co/3ER0niSzgeLl.jpg
[23:30] <Laurenceb> very odd
[23:32] <Laurenceb> or possibly three, half of them are hidden of course, but some are clearly blocked as the rocket rotates
[23:38] <Laurenceb> https://ibin.co/3ESBpVCin38c.jpg
[23:39] <Laurenceb> looks like a fragment of mangled plastic stuck on after the vanes seperated
[23:42] <Laurenceb> guess that explains half the problem
[23:44] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[23:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03vk5ix_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=vk5ix_chase
[00:00] --- Sun Mar 5 2017