highaltitude.log.20170301

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[00:35] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-22 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-22
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[01:45] <e32768> hi all!
[01:45] <e32768> what's going on?
[01:53] <e32768> hi again
[01:56] <Ian_> Not a lot?
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[03:01] Nick change: Mack_ -> Mack
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[05:16] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[06:39] <VE6AZX> Not sure who's on at this odd time, but I was looking for some advice from anyone who's used the 1600g latex balloons to make floaters
[06:40] <VE6AZX> basically what I'd like to do is put something weighing less than 100g up at ~40 km altitude for a few days.
[06:41] <VE6AZX> do you think this is possible? I've seen mixed reports online.
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[06:48] <daveake> The the to burst after sunrise on their second day. I only remember one that lasted longer - 3 maybe 4 days
[06:48] <daveake> They tend ^
[06:52] <VE6AZX> I see
[06:52] <VE6AZX> See, I've been wanting to do this, and I'm not sure whether it's possible in my money-skill parameter space
[06:53] <VE6AZX> I'd love to have something light up at the usual 35-40 km altitude that the burster balloons get to, but for a couple days at least
[06:53] <VE6AZX> I was wondering if the latex was the way to try to do this, or if I really do need to invest the time and money into learning to make a custom envelope
[06:53] <VE6AZX> I'm aware that this is what many of the "pro" people at floater balloons do. They do all seem to report fairly low altitudes at their floats though - is this by choice, just to get a smaller envelope?
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[06:59] <VE6AZX> One other thing I was wondering was if anyone has ever made a lightweight floater using a kaymont 300 or similar - or if that simply does not work
[07:04] <Darkside> same problems with all latex balloons
[07:04] <Darkside> they degrade, and pop after a day or so
[07:06] <VE6AZX> I see.
[07:06] <VE6AZX> so in the other direction - is there an inherent difficulty in making custom, larger envelopes to float at higher altitudes?
[07:06] <VE6AZX> I think there must be a reason so many floaters hang out at the 10 or 15 km range
[07:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HELLAS - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HELLAS
[07:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> to just get a floater to 15km takes a 2m diameter balloon with a verry light payload
[07:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> not easy making those balloons
[07:13] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is some ready built but they are verry expensive
[07:13] <VE6AZX> I had an idea about that and I was wondering if it sounded realistic
[07:14] <SA6BSS-Mike> to get to 15km it is in reach yes, higer is problematic
[07:14] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://www.scientificballoonsolutions.com/products/
[07:14] <VE6AZX> what if we took a foil balloon - underinflated to the point that it *would* float neutral at a target altitude - if only we could teleport it there
[07:14] <VE6AZX> and had a small latex "tow" balloon that drags it up there, and we cut it loose when it reaches the target altitude
[07:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> not woking that way, to keep the balloon and payload at an certen alt the ballon have to reach superpressure
[07:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> if you drag it highe it will popp
[07:16] <VE6AZX> even the foil balloon?
[07:16] <VE6AZX> let me rephrase, sorry
[07:16] <VE6AZX> there is no way then, that a foil balloon can withstand the pressure difference at 30~40 km?
[07:16] <daveake> The float altitude is determined by the balloon, fill and payload weight. Getting it there by towing it makes no difference.
[07:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes, and if it does nor pop it will fall back to the alt it should have reach if not draged in place
[07:17] <VE6AZX> I understand - I guess I figured the advantage would be *not* having to put any free lift at all on the foil balloon
[07:17] <VE6AZX> perhaps to reduce stress on it
[07:18] <daveake> And remember that a 1600g balloon floating at 40km is around 12m diameter. To get the same payload (100g ish) to that altitude needs (depending on balloon mass) a similar size plastic balloon. That's a big balloon.
[07:18] <VE6AZX> but I see what you are saying about the maximum height.
[07:18] <VE6AZX> ah, ok. this makes more sense to me now.
[07:19] <VE6AZX> so the real reason we don't see swarms of floaters at 40 km, is because the balloons required are huge / expensive / hard to make
[07:19] <SA6BSS-Mike> in short, yes
[07:19] <VE6AZX> thanks - that makes the projects I've seen make much more sense
[07:20] <VE6AZX> one other thought I had: I wonder how long a latex floater would last if launched in the arctic circle during winter - very little to no sunlight to degrade it
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[07:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> there was an reccord reacently for a 3-45 days latex float, see if I find the link, have to frop the kids a school first, back in 10
[07:23] <VE6AZX> thanks
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[07:29] <VE6AZX> as long as you guys don't mind me rattling off questions still - not sure what time it is for folks here - I had one other
[07:29] <VE6AZX> what do people generally use to seal thin plastic films together, e.g. the scientificballoonsolutions superpressure balloons? is it heat?
[07:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> most likley heat sealed
[07:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> it 08.40 here in sweden + Europe, uk -1 an hour
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[07:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> guess it was this I read about https://aa.stanford.edu/news-events/news/students-show-low-cost-balloons-can-do-real-high-altitude-studies
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[07:41] <VE6AZX> I see - thanks!
[07:42] <VE6AZX> so... I understand what you've told me about the latex balloons, and dragging mylar balloons up there doesn't really get you anything - but perhaps there is an aspect of the dual balloon idea that might be useful
[07:43] <VE6AZX> if you drag a small latex balloon (600g?) - set to float neutral at 30 km or so - up with another small balloon that gets cut loose at that point - perhaps these short duration latex floaters could be made
[07:43] <VE6AZX> with a less expensive balloon than a kaymont 1600?
[07:43] <VE6AZX> [which is the usual way they are done, from what I understand]
[07:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> its hard setting a neutral float with a latex as it will continue to expand
[07:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> nothing stopping it from expanding, I kow there was some experimnt that was done with netting the balloon but the sun killed it seccond day4
[07:46] <VE6AZX> hmm
[07:47] <VE6AZX> well we've just got to turn off the sun then haha
[07:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> yepp, or getting a big umprella up there :)
[07:48] <VE6AZX> hahaha right
[07:48] <VE6AZX> hmm.
[07:48] <VE6AZX> wish there was some sort of chemical protectant you could spray over latex that blocks uv
[07:49] <VE6AZX> guess that'd be sunscreen
[07:49] <VE6AZX> but it'd probably mess with the latex.
[07:53] <VE6AZX> here might be a really dumb idea
[07:54] <VE6AZX> I wonder what the fuel / energy budget would be for a balloon that has an internal heater to generate lift
[07:54] <VE6AZX> ... this is probably useless, I'm just daydreaming
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[07:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is actualy a latex spray http://hi-float.com/
[08:00] <SA6BSS-Mike> problem applying it after its reach float,
[08:01] <VE6AZX> after float? why not before, on the ground?
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[08:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> its no use realy, after it have expanded it only on like 15-20% on the evelope
[08:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SQ1FYB-12 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ1FYB-12
[08:03] <SA6BSS-Mike> balloon on grounf 1,5m? at 40km 12m?
[08:03] <SA6BSS-Mike> diamter
[08:04] <VE6AZX> oh ok
[08:04] <VE6AZX> no I get it
[08:04] <VE6AZX> interesting stuff
[08:05] <VE6AZX> I think one of my first non-burst experiments will be towing up a 1000g latex and cutting the tow balloon loose
[08:05] <VE6AZX> just to see what happens
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[08:06] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok
[08:06] <VE6AZX> hopefully get a float for a day or so?
[08:06] <VE6AZX> we'll see.
[08:06] <VE6AZX> 1600g balloons are expensive.
[08:07] <VE6AZX> thanks for your input, by the way. I like coming here to get peoples opinions on these schemes.
[08:08] <SA6BSS-Mike> np :)
[08:08] <VE6AZX> 73 - catch you around
[08:08] <SA6BSS-Mike> 73
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[08:27] <AndyEsser> o/
[08:29] <fsphil> zzz
[08:30] <gonzo_> as long as no-one yawns. That is highly contagious
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[09:38] <AndyEsser> my Antennas are all neatly and safely stacked on a shelf, easily accessible in the garage
[09:39] <AndyEsser> ready to get mounted soon :)
[09:46] Nick change: udat_ -> udat
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[09:55] <fsphil> nice, https://twitter.com/dscovr_epic/status/836874772789198853
[09:55] <AndyEsser> photoshop
[09:58] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: nice, what antennas to mount?
[09:58] <fsphil> are you able to put antennas on the roof this time?
[09:59] <AndyEsser> fsphil: yes, I'll be mounting a 3m (ish) scaff pole horizontally on the SE facing wall of the house
[09:59] <AndyEsser> SM0ULC-Reb: X50 Colinear Omni, 434 Yagi, 144 Yagi, 1090Mhz Omni
[10:11] <SM0ULC-Reb> how many elements on the 144 ?
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[10:19] <AndyEsser> the 144 isn't that great, two secs
[10:19] <AndyEsser> 144 is a 4-el
[10:19] <AndyEsser> the 43-440 is 15 el
[10:19] <AndyEsser> 430-440*
[10:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> it's just 144s get a bit big :)
[10:25] <AndyEsser> Yea, think that's why I went with that size
[10:25] <AndyEsser> I think it's only marginally smaller than the 430 yagi :)
[10:25] <SM0ULC-Reb> i have a 11 el in the garage, a bit big to handle on the roof at tha moment
[10:26] <AndyEsser> I don't really do all that much with 144 anyway
[10:26] <gonzo_> you will be supprised how small antenna look when on the roof
[10:27] <AndyEsser> well... the 144 is 1m long
[10:27] <AndyEsser> the 430 is 2.2m
[10:27] <AndyEsser> then the two omni's - and the Sky man gave me the old 4-channel LNB from the dish
[10:27] <gonzo_> you just have to make sure the wife/neigbours/landlord doesn't see it assembled on the ground
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[10:27] <AndyEsser> plus fitted a new 6-channel LNB which 2 ports of are free for me to plug into
[10:27] <AndyEsser> so if I can find a use for the Sky dish for other purposes without repositioning it, then voila
[10:28] <gonzo_> band 2 antennas are bigger than 2mtrs, but a 5ele on someopnes TV antenna pole hardly gets noticed
[10:29] <AndyEsser> Yea, I'm kind of hoping people will see the 434 and just think it's a TV antenna and not have any issues :P
[10:29] <AndyEsser> we'll ignore the fact that it'll be pointing in the opposite direction :P
[10:29] <gonzo_> AndyEsser, put one of the PLL LNBs on it and shift it a few degs and you should get the ehail sat when it's up
[10:29] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: won't that bugger my sky reception though?
[10:29] <gonzo_> it will be pointing in all directions!
[10:30] <gonzo_> yep, getting rid of sky would eb an estra benefit
[10:30] <AndyEsser> lol
[10:30] <AndyEsser> nope
[10:30] <AndyEsser> :)
[10:30] <gonzo_> saving 20-30£ a month that you can buy test kit with
[10:31] <fsphil> there's nothing on sky since stargate and battlestar ended
[10:31] <fsphil> and it's not worth getting just for GoT
[10:31] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I've only just signed the Sky contract, I'm not breaking it ;)
[10:31] <AndyEsser> it's useful for the kids
[10:31] <gonzo_> doesn't everyone get sky through ripp off online streams now?
[10:31] <SpeedEvil> I find myself becoming increasingly elitest in my media consumption.
[10:32] <SpeedEvil> When you realise you're at the bit of youtube where the videos have 26 views and are an hour long.
[10:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SV3CIX-1_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SV3CIX-1_chase
[10:33] <gonzo_> I did have tv for a few years when the daughter was younger but otherwise have been tv free
[10:33] <AndyEsser> need to order a bunch of RTLSDRs for all the antennas, and get it all plumbed into the garage and whatnot
[10:33] <SpeedEvil> https://youtu.be/oS4iczSzGNw?t=917 - fun on cosmology.
[10:33] <AndyEsser> eventually get a rotator for the Yagis
[10:33] <SpeedEvil> And balloons.
[10:33] <SpeedEvil> And liquid helium dewars you could climb in.
[10:33] <SpeedEvil> (you shouldn't, you'd boil off all the helium)
[10:33] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: up until now I haven't had a TV license as I didn't consume TV at all, the TV device was used for Netflix and games consoles
[10:34] <AndyEsser> but not really feasible now with the kids and partner
[10:34] <fsphil> robot wars and top gear back on this sunday too
[10:36] <AndyEsser> I need to catch up on Robot Wars, watched the first couple episodes
[10:36] <fsphil> the new series is pretty good
[10:37] Action: Laurenceb_ has a patent application published
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> I'm waiting for the one in a couple of years, when it's the only story on the news.
[10:37] <Laurenceb_> http://www.google.com/patents/WO2017009669A1?cl=en
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> yay
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> Riches!
[10:38] <Laurenceb_> heh some chance
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> Does it work OK on different coloured people? I don't see that mentioned on a quick skim
[10:41] <Laurenceb_> it doesnt work at all to be honest
[10:41] <AndyEsser> ha
[10:41] <Laurenceb_> its a uni policy that they want x number of patents
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[10:41] <Laurenceb_> capillary refill time doesnt actually measure anything useful, but that doesnt stop them trying
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> So you think!
[10:42] <AndyEsser> Yay for uni policies...
[10:42] <Laurenceb_> we made a prototype device and proved that its not useful
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> Do you mean it measures an unimportant parameter accurately?
[10:43] <Laurenceb_> it measures a function of blood mobility and vessel interconnectivity within the capillary bed
[10:43] <Laurenceb_> not enormously useful
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if it's useful in differentiating some parameters of patients in shock.
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> Probably not on its own.
[10:44] <Laurenceb_> it might be useful to measure correlation between environmental temperature and refill time in some patients
[10:45] <Laurenceb_> if people have some sort of suspected thermoregulation disfunction
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[10:47] <SpeedEvil> I've been watching lots of fascinating videos on youtube about distant optical diagnosis - unfortunately in this case they would only be useful if you heat the patient to 3000K or so.
[10:53] <gonzo_> one of my first design jobs was to make an anal temperature probe
[10:53] <gonzo_> though all I knew I was building for was a thermistor
[10:53] <gonzo_> only later I saw what it was moulded into
[10:53] <AndyEsser> hehe
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[11:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> !flights
[11:02] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-M: Current flights: 03WESTG Epsom Stem 10(2f8a), 03Kingsfold190 10(9ea8), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5), 03UBSEDS21 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(2e88)
[11:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> !flight 9ea8
[11:02] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-M: Flight 10(9ea8): 03Kingsfold190 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Today at 11:00 from 03Lancashire, UK 10(53.73559,-2.71505)
[11:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=9cd2009e4a39386986aea9982255d2134fac929c
[11:06] <fsphil> splash
[11:09] <AndyEsser> someone I know reasonably local to me works on marine bots... wonder if we deploy it out to see using a HAB... :)
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[11:17] <fsphil> you should suggest it to them :)
[11:17] <fsphil> that'd be a fun job
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[11:23] <AndyEsser> fsphil: yea, we've already discussed in passing doing a collaboration
[11:24] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03M10WX-11 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M10WX-11
[11:24] <fsphil> rtty on sonar. stty, wtty
[11:24] <daveake> My neighbour's OH does too, and yes we've discussed possibilities :)
[11:25] <AndyEsser> his main issue is he hasn't gotten deeper than 30m before the radio signal becomes too degraded to be useful
[11:25] <AndyEsser> but I haven't investigated what he actually uses for that etc
[11:25] <fsphil> yeah radio doesn't go far in water
[11:28] <fsphil> I don't think there's any practical way of communicating with something at the bottom of the ocean, other than having a direct link to something on the surface?
[11:30] <nick_> Sound?
[11:30] <gonzo_> VLF
[11:30] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: was going to mention VLF
[11:30] <gonzo_> though not sure how far that penetrates
[11:31] <AndyEsser> my understanding is the lower the frequency the further it gets
[11:31] <AndyEsser> Well... Executive Decision had them using VLF when at depth ;)
[11:31] <AndyEsser> that's the extend of my knowledge of submarine communications
[11:32] <gonzo_> I played with mag loop comms at uni. This was a deaf-aid loop, but the cavers use it for comms too
[11:33] <fsphil> VLF can be picked up near the surface
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> Radio works fine in some bands in clean water to moderate depths.
[11:33] <gonzo_> though that's not EM, so poss different
[11:33] <gonzo_> (mag loop, not em)
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> A major issue is the refractive index of water is near infinity, and the matching to antennas designed for air is terrible
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> You can even do normal wifi in seawater to ~10cm.
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> Or maybe that was fresh - I'd have to re-look that up
[11:34] <AndyEsser> SpeedEvil: my thoughts had been have the hab/a buoy on the surface with an antenna submerged which communicates with the marine bot, and then retransmits
[11:34] <AndyEsser> so would have to design specific antennas for water?
[11:35] <gonzo_> water is quite absorbing at roughly wifi/ism band
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> If actual seawater, it doesn't work so well.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: yes, but you've got ~90dB or so path loss that you can take.
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> http://paginas.fe.up.pt/~ee10239/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/thesis_pdi.pdf - ah - it was fresh
[11:38] <gonzo_> subs have an antenna pod that they can winch up to the surface
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> https://portail.telecom-bretagne.eu/publi/public/fic_download.jsp?id=20537 - actually - saltwater
[11:39] <gonzo_> aside, at friedrichafen a coupke of years ago,m they had a demo hab launch. And that chatted to a bouy that they let lose on the lake a few weeks before
[11:42] <gonzo_> how about a bouy that is wire linked to the bot, then hab/plane/drone mounted repeater, to get the comms back to the mother vessel
[11:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[11:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 0310 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[12:06] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I've thought about the floating buoy (aka a hab that 'landed'), and then possibly pods deployed from the drone at certain depths that hold their depth, when the signal starts to degrade
[12:07] <AndyEsser> the guys target depth is 300m
[12:07] <AndyEsser> but he thinks that'll likely be impossible
[12:07] <AndyEsser> but wants to investigate possibly a hybrid of RF + Sonar (sonar being used for controlling)
[12:14] <Ian_> AndyEsser Project Sanguine http://www.vox.com/2015/4/10/8381983/project-sanguine but likely to be a bit beyond the average guys available power budjet :)
[12:14] <Ian_> budget
[12:15] <AndyEsser> ta
[12:16] <AndyEsser> good lord, 41% of the state of wisconsin
[12:16] <AndyEsser> that's a large antenna
[12:17] <Ian_> I think that even before the end of the Cold War, they decided that it wasn't environmentally friendly, was expensive and for a 'good idea' it wasn't very popular . . . Now if it was tax deductible, you would have to be earning for a long time to get into payback ;)
[12:17] <Ian_> A looooong time.
[12:19] <Ian_> I suppose that it was a bit of a use for the state of Wisconsin, which might otherwise be redundant. Just imagine trying to keep up with the copper wire thieves if you had regular broadcasts with idle intervals - snatch!
[12:19] <nick_> Some (weird) people still discuss using a neutrino beam to communicate with submarines.
[12:19] <Ian_> Diver on a string with a . . . hammer
[12:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03essai_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=essai_chase
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[12:27] <fsphil> the data rate over neutrinos is gonna be pretty slow with current tech :)
[12:28] <Northants> Any news on the 2 expected UK HAB's today ?
[12:29] <fsphil> http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/mar/19/neutrino-based-communication-is-a-first
[12:29] <fsphil> "less than 1 bit/s"
[12:30] <AndyEsser> nippy
[12:30] <fsphil> ah, further down it says 0.1 bit/s
[12:30] <fsphil> that's better than I expected
[12:37] <nick_> Was that MINOS?
[12:37] <nick_> The accelerator used for MINOS isn't what you'd use for commnication.
[12:41] <fsphil> could it be done with smaller equipment?
[12:41] <nick_> For communication you want to switch between neutrino and antineutrino to determine the bits.
[12:42] <fsphil> that test was just using OOK
[12:42] <AndyEsser> you don't really want neutrinos and anti-neutrinos too close to each other...
[12:42] <AndyEsser> :)
[12:42] <fsphil> cross the streammms
[12:42] <nick_> Neutrinos almost never interact, it doesn't matter.
[12:42] <AndyEsser> "almost never" but when they do, kaboom :)
[12:42] <nick_> No
[12:42] <fsphil> they do matter. just not much :)
[12:43] <nick_> Like, there a billions of neutrinos and antinuetirnos going through you each second.
[12:43] <nick_> (I say billions, I probably mean 10^lots)
[12:44] <AndyEsser> I like the notation 10^lots - need to find reasons to use it more
[12:44] <nick_> The reactor I use as a source gives out 10^~25 anti-neutrinos per second, I thin.
[12:44] <daey> that you use?
[12:44] <fsphil> are they mostly from the sun, or cosmic?
[12:44] <daey> do you have one in your cellar? :O
[12:45] <nick_> It's in Belgium, not my cellar.
[12:45] <nick_> I think most places cosmics rays are the main source of neutrinos.
[12:45] <nick_> If you go near a reactor that'll dominate.
[12:46] <AndyEsser> my plans for anice workshop at home (to build a reactor in) have been scuppered by the missus using the garage for storage :(
[12:46] <fsphil> cool
[12:46] <fsphil> so there's like a dome of neutrinos being generated around the earth?
[12:46] <nick_> There's an app that'll show this kinda thing.
[12:46] <nick_> Yeah
[12:46] <nick_> They're produced in nuclear reactions.
[12:47] <nick_> Like the ones cosmic ray cascades have.
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[12:49] <nick_> Depending on the energy range your sensitive to, you may be dominated by solar neutrinos.
[12:49] <nick_> They are pretty low energy.
[12:49] <daey> AndyEsser: remember the guy who officially ask the government if its ok if he tinkers with radioaktive material? :P
[12:49] <fsphil> my neutrino sun tan is going well
[12:49] <daey> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8679630/Swedish-man-arrested-after-trying-to-split-atoms-in-his-kitchen.html
[12:50] <nick_> Solar neutrinos are mostly < 1 MeV
[12:50] <fsphil> energy is just the speed they're moving?
[12:50] <nick_> Reactor are up to about 8 MeV
[12:50] <nick_> Cosmics, up to ~TeV
[12:51] <AndyEsser> daey: ha!
[12:51] <nick_> Well, they are very highly relativistic, so the speed doesn't vary much.
[12:51] <daey> they dont all move at C ?
[12:52] <nick_> No
[12:52] <nick_> Because they do have mass.
[12:52] <nick_> Just not much of it.
[12:52] <nick_> So little it's not yet been possible to measure how much.
[12:53] <AndyEsser> I need a set of scales that say "Too little mass to measure" to make me feel better about my weight :(
[12:53] <nick_> But less than a millionth of the electron mass.
[12:56] <nick_> Interestingly, we know the differences in the masses pretty well, since it leads to an intereference type effect.
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[13:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BARC4 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC4
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[13:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> barc4 is up
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[13:19] <SA6BSS-Mike> 434.382
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[13:24] <G3ZGZ> BARC4 is flying
[13:25] <G3ZGZ> SSDV images
[13:26] <fsphil> oh pics
[13:36] <fsphil> this now seems so slow after seeing daveake and Darkside's stuff
[13:38] <daveake> Mine seems slow compared to Darkside's :-)
[13:39] <daveake> Barc + pics .... what is the world coming to? :p
[13:40] <fsphil> it was impressive seeing the wenet stuff going
[13:40] <AndyEsser> daveake: and a proper flight doc that was correct?
[13:40] <AndyEsser> :)
[13:40] <daveake> Wow
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[13:41] Action: fsphil sits down
[13:42] <dbrooke> but will it burst low enough to avoid going swimming?
[13:43] <pb0ahx> !dial BARC4
[13:43] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Latest dials for 03BARC4 10(9ea8): 03434.451 MHz, 434.4506 MHz, 434.4498 MHz, 434.45007 MHz
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[13:51] <dbrooke> seems to be averaging over 6m/s ascent
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[14:01] <pb0ahx> strange green line here but no ssdv mmmm
[14:02] <fsphil> aliens
[14:02] <fsphil> </unhelpful>
[14:03] <pb0ahx> i think
[14:03] <pb0ahx> this is green Decoded image packet. Callsign: BARC4, Image ID: 0E, Resolution: 640x480, Packet ID: 38
[14:04] <pb0ahx> rong version dl-fldigi i think
[14:05] <fsphil> what do you see when you click View > ssdv rx?
[14:05] <pb0ahx> black screen
[14:06] <pb0ahx> received 45 id:0x0e
[14:06] <pb0ahx> callsign:BARC4
[14:07] <pb0ahx> but all black
[14:09] <fsphil> that's unusual. can you take a screenshot
[14:11] <pb0ahx> were can i post that ?
[14:12] <fsphil> imgur is fine
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[14:13] <pb0ahx> http://imgur.com/a/bA40F?
[14:13] <G8FJG> pb0ahx : I get the same with V 3.23.12 ok with 3.21.50
[14:14] <fsphil> huh, I have not seen that happen before
[14:14] <pb0ahx> me to
[14:14] <pb0ahx> first time here
[14:15] <G8FJG> thats why I run both V's
[14:16] <G8FJG> both upload ok
[14:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AC6MH-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AC6MH-11
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[14:25] <G3ZGZ> quit
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[14:35] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HELLAS after 037 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HELLAS
[14:35] <SM0ULC-Reb> Anyone chasing BARC?
[14:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> !flights
[14:47] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Current flights: 03WESTG Epsom Stem 10(2f8a), 03Kingsfold190 10(9ea8), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5), 03UBSEDS21 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(2e88)
[14:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> !flight 2f8a
[14:47] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Flight 10(2f8a): 03WESTG Epsom Stem 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Today at 16:00 from 03Surrey, UK 10(51.38,-0.346)
[14:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-3 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-3
[14:58] <SA6BSS-Mike> cool its still going, its the current record holder 191days !!
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WESTG - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WESTG
[14:58] <AndyEsser> !flight 54a5
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> 03AndyEsser: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[14:58] <AndyEsser> !flight 64a5
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> 03AndyEsser: Flight 10(64a5): 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(1 payload) - Launch date 0317/08/2016 from 03Clifton, Bristol, UK 10(51.456,-2.613)
[14:59] <AndyEsser> looks like UBSEDS18 got shot down over North Korea :)
[15:00] <SA6BSS-Mike> noone nows, but it have not been heard for about 40 days now
[15:02] <AndyEsser> lasted a good while though!
[15:03] <AndyEsser> 196 days if it's still there now :)
[15:09] <gonzo_> how long did leo's longest one fly for?
[15:09] <gonzo_> it must have got dizzy, the numb er of revs it did
[15:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> 135 days 9 hours http://arhab.org/#
[15:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> 134 days
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[15:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> Duh helps to take the previous flight out of the search bar ....
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[15:31] <gonzo_> ah, the london flight looks like it's up
[15:32] <gonzo_> ahead of time! That is a shock
[15:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> They did that last time as well
[15:33] <fsphil> making us all look bad
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[15:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EALPITS - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EALPITS
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[15:46] <gonzo_> hmmm, gone to carrier
[15:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> never a good sign
[15:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> does it have a watchdog .....
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[15:51] <pb0ahx> !flights
[15:51] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03WESTG Epsom Stem 10(2f8a), 03Kingsfold190 10(9ea8), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5), 03UBSEDS21 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(2e88)
[15:52] <pb0ahx> !dial 2f8a
[15:52] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Latest dials for 03WestonG Epsom 10(2f8a): 03434.398753 MHz, 434.3991 MHz, 434.3982 MHz, 434.39884 MHz
[15:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> just a carrier at the moment 434.4
[15:52] <pb0ahx> ok
[15:52] <pb0ahx> tnx info
[15:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> stopped mid sentence $$WESTG,11572,154451,+5125.9600,-00000.0824,
[15:54] <pb0ahx> than i go to the dinner here tnx all for today
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[16:09] Nick change: [1]michal_f -> michal_f
[16:09] <G4YHE> still only carrier here, shame, I was on a roll :(
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[16:12] <pa4fb> hello all
[16:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> afternoon
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[16:18] <G4YHE> carrier very weak here now, going to call it a day.
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[16:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> keep swinging the beam ;-)
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[16:48] <G8FJG> 434.275
[16:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> ? has it shifted ?
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[16:50] <G8FJG> 50/240 8n2 new one?
[16:50] <PE2BZ> !flights
[16:50] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03WESTG Epsom Stem 10(2f8a), 03Kingsfold190 10(9ea8), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5), 03UBSEDS21 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(2e88)
[16:50] <PE2BZ> !payload 2f8a
[16:50] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Payload 03WestonG Epsom 10(2f8a) 03$$WESTG - 03WestonG - 03434.4 MHz USB 03RTTY 50/350Hz ASCII-8 none 2
[16:51] <G8FJG> 50/440
[16:51] <PE2BZ> tnx
[16:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Odd
[16:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> the bearing has swung back, maybe a spare second one launched ?
[16:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yes its climbing back up again
[16:56] <G8KNN> just gone to carrier again :-(
[16:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yup
[16:56] <G8FJG> meridian problem?
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[16:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Could be ...
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[17:01] <G8FJG> if you overlay ordnance survey its very close
[17:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> last long was -0.00888
[17:02] <G8FJG> $$WESTG,11575,165524,+5120.8493,-00000.0646
[17:03] <fsphil> it just dies when it hits the meridian?
[17:04] <G8FJG> seen it happen a few years ? ago.....I'm jus a "cut and paste" bloke
[17:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> seems that way, thseen this before ;-)ink we have
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[17:06] <G8FJG> but I was around when Babbage? (we were on first name terms), did his thing
[17:06] <G8FJG> afk dinner to burn
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[18:13] <Laurenceb_> literally wut http://rockoon.eu/
[18:13] <Laurenceb_> zero details
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[18:17] <Ron_G8FJG> Both WESTG still airborne 1st 434.399.200 going LF ( getting really cold) 2nd 434.275.000 both bearing 90 deg from me
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[18:47] <Ron_G8FJG> Both WESTG still airborne 1st 434.396.800 still going LF ( getting colder) 2nd 434.274.600 both bearing 90 deg from me
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[18:59] <fsphil> that's quite a long time in the air
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[19:11] <Ron_G8FJG> last update WESTG 1 434.396 600 going hf (warming up ..going down?) WESTG 2 434.274 800 very weak still 90 qrg
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[20:01] <richardeoin> ahh ubseds23 is still transmitting http://aprs.fi/info/a/M0SBU-3
[20:01] <richardeoin> battery is nearly finished now though
[20:25] <richardeoin> ubseds23 write-up: http://www.bristol-seds.co.uk/hab/flight/2017/02/28/ubseds23.html
[20:25] <richardeoin> including envelope repair job: http://www.bristol-seds.co.uk/assets/flights/23/ps_patch_inflated.JPG
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[20:40] <aadamson> I need to concede the altitude and the power generation, but I think I got all of the rest of them :) https://plus.google.com/+ProjectLoon/posts/2vGeQAXF4Qo
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[20:49] <richardeoin> aadamson: awesome
[20:50] <aadamson> richardeoin, thanks, didn't think it would happen and ya never know when -3 is going to startup :)
[20:50] <richardeoin> on the power generation, you're probably about 2000h @ 150mW = 1 MJ
[20:50] <richardeoin> still quite a bit of energy
[20:51] <aadamson> yeah not bad for 1.5x2 inch solar cells (2 of them) :)... wooo hoo
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[20:54] <richardeoin> aah that's 52mm x 39mm ?
[20:55] <aadamson> yeah
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[20:55] <aadamson> .5v @ .68A
[20:55] <richardeoin> my experiment with chopping up Maxeon C60s by hand was a failure
[20:55] <aadamson> in series
[20:55] <richardeoin> planning to use 8x 76mm x 52mm instead
[20:56] <aadamson> yeah I looked at some, seems they are crystal over metal so they are probably pretty hard to cut with out laser
[20:57] <richardeoin> 8x 0.5V @ 1.26A , wired up 2.0V @ 2.5A
[20:58] <richardeoin> should be about enough to run a raspberry pi
[21:03] <aadamson> is that for 22 or a future flight?
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[21:07] <richardeoin> that'll be for some future flight
[21:08] <richardeoin> 22 is all packaged up and ready to go, so won't be making any changes
[21:08] <aadamson> hey, how come you didn't do AFSK on the AX5043?
[21:08] <aadamson> it does native AFSK 1200baud TX/RX with built in HDLC, etc
[21:08] <aadamson> course as I'm coming to learn, might not even fly APRS next time, why bother, when I pretty much have WW coverage on HF :)
[21:09] <aadamson> btw, looking forward to 22, will it have night capability on the IR side?
[21:11] <richardeoin> It did use the native AFSK mode for APRS
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[21:12] <richardeoin> it's quite handy as you say
[21:12] <richardeoin> here's my library for the controlling the AX5043 https://github.com/richardeoin/ax/tree/master/sw
[21:13] <aadamson> ah, I wasn't sure because you launch announcement didn't say that so I figured maybe it was MFSK, GMSK only. Thanks I'll take a look at that link
[21:13] <aadamson> RX too or just TX?
[21:14] <aadamson> we *really* need to put a digi in the sky (over those countries that could use it), just pick a slight different (maybe ISS) frequency for it :)
[21:14] <richardeoin> I haven't figured out how to get RX working for AFSK actually
[21:16] <richardeoin> the manual doesn't explain how to get the afsk tracking loop to connect up to the modem
[21:16] <aadamson> yeah, I've not played with it yet, another friend is doing everything with it, but I don't know where his RX stuff is yet
[21:16] <aadamson> he got side tracked playing with a CC1120 :)
[21:17] <aadamson> creating a small SDR from it basically (go figure)
[21:17] <aadamson> it has 17 bit I/Q out... or something like that
[21:18] <richardeoin> should be possible anyhow, even getting some life out of the TRKAFSKDEMOD register would be a start
[21:20] <richardeoin> for the iridum beacon, here's the schematic https://github.com/PaulZC/Iridium_9603_Beacon/blob/master/Iridium_9603_Beacon_V1.pdf
[21:21] <richardeoin> might be a bit hit and miss at night
[21:22] <richardeoin> depends what voltage the 3x Energiser AAAs provide, and if it still works when the 3.3V rail is < 3.3V
[21:22] <aadamson> yeah, we had to use heaters on batteries with enough solar to recharge the next day. They don't like to get cold either btw. Do you know did they do cold testing?
[21:22] <aadamson> is there a boost converter on there, it wants 5v for TX pa I'm pretty sure
[21:23] <richardeoin> yup there's LTC3225
[21:25] <richardeoin> he's done some cold testing, conclusions on page 5 https://github.com/PaulZC/Iridium_9603_Beacon/blob/master/Iridium_9603_Beacon.pdf
[21:27] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/2015-02-25%2017.23.47-small.jpg
[21:27] <aadamson> That version flew around the world, then it grew up and got an F4, with SDCARD and a bunch of other sensors, etc :0
[21:30] <aadamson> if I remember right, the IR modem is only rated to about -30 maybe -35C and it's internal osc (may be a txco, not sure) didn't like rapid changes in temp (morning, night transision)
[21:32] <aadamson> Will be fun to watch best of luck!
[21:34] <richardeoin> it's on a low duty cycle (once every 10 minutes / 1 hour), so the issue will be the oscillator self-heating
[21:35] <richardeoin> yes that may result in drift that's too fast for it
[21:35] <richardeoin> will have to see
[21:35] <richardeoin> thanks!
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[23:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03M10WX-11 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M10WX-11
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[23:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[23:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-22 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-22
[00:00] --- Thu Mar 2 2017