highaltitude.log.20170127

[00:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03aaa_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=aaa_chase
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[06:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[09:47] <Vaizki> hirfw-6 is amazingly consistent in its route 'round the globe
[09:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> I got one spot from it on 20m wspr an hour ago, fun :)
[09:48] <SA6BSS-Mike> 3368km
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[10:08] <michal_f> so how many circles complete for HIRFW-6 ?
[10:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> 9,5 laps if I can count https://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=5&qm=All&mc=29.30418,56.65392&q=hirfw-6
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:19] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder what the probability of crossing the equator is.
[10:19] <SpeedEvil> (where 'equator' is the boundary between airflows)
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[10:20] <michal_f> niceee...
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[12:09] <AndyEsser> the study guide for the UKRA RSO certification is dry reading...
[12:15] <fsphil> I'm sure you can make some kind of drinking game based on it :)
[12:16] <AndyEsser> ha
[12:17] <edmoore> why are you reading it?
[12:17] <AndyEsser> I'll be doing my L1, L2 and RSO certifications this year
[12:17] <AndyEsser> with a colleague in Bangor
[12:18] <edmoore> oh right
[12:18] <edmoore> i suspect you can just read it once you've got your l2
[12:18] <AndyEsser> I wanted to see what was involved
[12:18] <AndyEsser> :)
[12:18] <edmoore> standing in a high vis all day
[12:18] <edmoore> there you go
[12:19] <edmoore> now go and build stuff
[12:19] <AndyEsser> Yes boss :P
[12:19] <edmoore> a lot of people launching rockets will know more than the RSO giving them approval
[12:19] <AndyEsser> fully expect that
[12:20] <AndyEsser> but there's very little activity up in North West/North Wales - by Jo and I being RSO's it means we can run events up here
[12:20] <edmoore> that's a veryy good point i guess
[12:20] <edmoore> you could start your wee club
[12:20] <edmoore> are you going to the various scottish rocketry events?
[12:21] <AndyEsser> believe our current plan is EARS, nothing in Scotlan
[12:21] <AndyEsser> Scotland*
[12:22] <edmoore> the scottish rocketry weekends are good
[12:22] <edmoore> ears is good too ofc
[12:22] <edmoore> big ears is fun
[12:22] <AndyEsser> Yea, big ears is where we're planning on getting our L1 I think
[12:22] <AndyEsser> have Jo coming to the office in the next hour or so to design our L1 rockets
[12:29] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[12:30] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-2 after 0316 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-2
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[12:40] <AndyEsser> edmoore: don't suppose you're going to the UK Space Conference in May?
[12:41] <edmoore> no
[12:41] <edmoore> all just talk normally
[12:41] <edmoore> 99% of this stuff is guff and posers
[12:41] <edmoore> just make stuff
[12:41] <AndyEsser> fair enough
[12:41] <edmoore> all that said I may be, don't know
[12:42] <edmoore> if there's a meeting
[12:42] <AndyEsser> no worries, just thought I'd ask - as I've got tickets for the whole conference
[12:44] <edmoore> if i am i probs won't know till april or something
[12:44] <edmoore> will let you know
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[12:46] <SpeedEvil> Making stuff - anything is good. Though I'm reminded of a poster I saw '6 months at the bench can save as much as three hours in the library'
[12:53] <AndyEsser> edmoore: yep no worries - just crossed my mind that you might be and it'd be good to grab a coffee and a chat
[13:05] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: that's also true
[13:06] <edmoore> but that's still making stuff
[13:06] <edmoore> analysis and design
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[13:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03INFINITY - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=INFINITY
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[13:59] <seanrdev> Pardon me if my question is a little uneducated. Is there a name for the action of boring out a cylinder the "right" way to propel an object up versus the object exploding?
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[13:59] <StuartL> Can you elaborate on the question?
[14:00] <StuartL> The question sounds a bit like "What's the correct way to design a gun barrel?"
[14:01] <seanrdev> I don't know if that makes since but I am wanting to learn how an object can be propelled in a rocket. If I light a fire cracker it explodes however a rocket does not. What makes the fuel burn slowly over time vs just an explosion.
[14:02] <gonzo_> it's to do with the burn rates of the propellants also the way that pressure in the barrel affects that rate
[14:03] <gonzo_> in a rocket, the force is provided mainly by a rocket engine (and there are others here who can give you the correct terms and explanatios on rockets)
[14:04] <StuartL> seanrdev: Ok, in both cases the propellant is burning exceedingly quickly. The difference is how the expansion from that burn is contained.
[14:04] <gonzo_> in a gun barrel, the propellent is held in the chamber behind the projectile and all the force to propell it ends as soon as the projectileleaves the barrel
[14:05] <StuartL> In a fire cracker (or pipe bomb, or anything else triggering NSA monitoring of this conversation) the propellant is contained in a high pressure container.
[14:05] <StuartL> The increase in pressure as the propellant burns causes a massive increase in the speed of the reaction, which in turn causes a massive pressure spike.
[14:05] <StuartL> When the pressure exceeds what the container can handle the container explodes.
[14:06] <gonzo_> depends on the compounds. High explosives detonate, and the enclosure is mainly there to provide shrapnel to cause injury.
[14:06] <StuartL> In the case (!) of a grenade the casing is weakened in the right places so that the casing and contents go everywhere.
[14:06] <gonzo_> Propellants burn
[14:06] <gonzo_> correct on grenades
[14:07] <StuartL> For rockets, guns or anything else where the propellant is intended to propel the containment for the propellant is a key tuning parameter.
[14:07] <StuartL> Rocket nozzles are shaped and sized to compromise pressure increase (and hence propellant exhaust velocity) against the safety margin.
[14:07] <gonzo_> if you use good old black powder, it's burn rate is mainly controled by the surface area of the grains.
[14:08] <gonzo_> solid rockets (as far as I know) are often just one solid lump of prepellent with a hole up the middle
[14:08] <StuartL> The smaller the nozzle the more likely that the pressure rise will not be contained safely and will explode, the larger the nozzle the lower the combustion pressure and the lower the exhaust velocity, i.e. the lower the thrust.
[14:08] <StuartL> gonzo_: Agreed.
[14:09] <gonzo_> rockets need to burn as long as the rocket is propelled. Guns need the powder to be pretty much all used up as the bullet leaves the barren. So needs a much higher burn rate
[14:09] <StuartL> Sometimes you can have a catastrophic rocket motor failure if some of the propellant inside the grain detaches and lodges itself in the nozzle.
[14:09] <StuartL> The reduced nozzle diameter then causes an explosion.
[14:10] <gonzo_> possible I suppose. I';ve seen solid hobby rockets explode
[14:10] <StuartL> gonzo_: Agreed. In guns you're actually aiming for an explosion whose pressure wave rips the bullet from the casing without damaging the barrel.
[14:10] <StuartL> gonzo_: Seen it happen :)
[14:10] <StuartL> gonzo_: Big badda boom.
[14:10] <gonzo_> (not ideal when it's a few feet above your head)
[14:11] <StuartL> !
[14:11] <StuartL> Safe launching distance? :D
[14:11] <gonzo_> well.... arm's length
[14:11] <StuartL> s/S/Uns/
[14:12] <gonzo_> failed fuse, so just propped a pile of gunpowder under the exhaust and lit it
[14:12] <gonzo_> not ideal
[14:12] <StuartL> :D
[14:13] <gonzo_> hobby rtockets are just cardboard tubes, so not too bad. Gun barrels are steel and the burny bit of powder tends to be a few inches from your face, so tend to need a bit more caution
[14:14] <gonzo_> 30 tons per sq inch of pressure is common in a gun
[14:14] <seanrdev> The smaller nozzle stops all the fuel from being burned up immediately. So I'm just guessing there is a large mathematical formula to stop your rocket from exploding that use variables like diameter of nozzle, fuel burn rates, heat, expanding of metal during and after launch etc etc.
[14:15] <gonzo_> probably. See if anyone else answers here
[14:16] <gonzo_> but I would expect that a smaller diam nozzel will cause increased pressure, and that may increase burn rate, which increases pressure
[14:16] <gonzo_> in guns, the pressure goes up sort of exponentially as you increase the powder charge
[14:18] <gonzo_> bursting a cardboard tube or blowing the plaster nozzle out of a rocket is mostly just inconvenient
[14:18] <gonzo_> what's your reason for the questions?
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> http://nakka-rocketry.net/ seanrdev - read that
[14:23] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PACA1 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PACA1
[14:25] <seanrdev> SpeedEvil: Thanks a lot!!!
[14:27] <edmoore> yo
[14:28] <edmoore> gonzo_: 30 tonnes per sq in?
[14:29] <edmoore> wash your mouth out
[14:29] <edmoore> how many furlongs of mercury is that
[14:31] <edmoore> seanrdev: you are right with what you surmised. It's a question of the mass of gas being produced per unit of time by your fuel, and then the nozzle determines how much thrust you get from that
[14:31] <edmoore> and the combustion chamber has to be up to the thermal and mechanical loads induced as a result
[14:31] <edmoore> that's about it
[14:32] <edmoore> and it's all coupled
[14:32] <edmoore> e.g. if you reduce the size of the nozzle then you will increase the internal pressure which will up the burn rate and so the mass/second of hot gas produced
[14:40] <edmoore> also the language here (me included) is mega sloppy
[14:41] <edmoore> nozzles do not really increase pressure, infact you could say they reduce them
[14:41] <edmoore> it's more about the throat (or choke) size and the size and shape of the corresponding nozzle that generates the thrust
[14:45] <gonzo_> edmoore, sorry. But most gun related stuff comes from the US, so imperial still rules
[14:45] <gonzo_> and you get to talk about pound per squinch
[14:45] <edmoore> I suppose pascals sounds a bit french
[14:45] <edmoore> freedomscals
[14:46] <daveake> alternate units
[14:47] <edmoore> the worst thing about that is that it should be 'alternative'
[14:47] <edmoore> alternate is a verb
[14:47] <daveake> He uses alternative English
[14:47] <adamgreig> I think you mean "alternate adjective"
[14:48] <gonzo_> berxits per patriot
[14:48] <daveake> walls per mexican
[14:48] <gonzo_> commies per nuke
[14:49] <gonzo_> combovers per trump
[14:49] <daveake> showers per hotel room
[14:49] <daveake> anyway back to rockets ... :)
[14:49] <gonzo_> was my 2nd commenbt on topic then?
[14:50] <daveake> possibly :)
[14:50] <edmoore> seanrdev: do you feel like you understand the answer to your question a bit better now?
[14:57] <gonzo_> understanding the question is also a good start
[14:57] <StuartL> edmoore: daveake may have meant that seanrdev was alternating units.
[15:00] <edmoore> I don't think so
[15:00] <edmoore> I think it was a trump joke
[15:03] <daveake> yup
[15:05] <gonzo_> trum is a joke
[15:05] <gonzo_> though one who now has the code to end the world
[15:07] <seanrdev> edmoore: I do thank you very much
[15:14] <edmoore> If you want there are some v good books on the subject
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[15:44] <Laurenceb> !whereis UBSEDS18
[15:44] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb: 03UBSEDS18 was over 03Naiman, Tongliao, Inner Mongolia, China 10(43.17166,120.67383) at 0312032 meters about 037 days ago
[15:45] <Laurenceb> I see rocketry discussion
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[17:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KM6DYI-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KM6DYI-12
[17:05] stryx` (~stryx@unaffiliated/stryx/x-3871776) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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[17:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ka01hs5445_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ka01hs5445_chase
[17:10] <edmoore> Laurenceb: nope
[17:10] <edmoore> nothing to see here
[17:10] <Laurenceb> indeed
[17:11] <Laurenceb> I should do some rocket work
[17:11] <Laurenceb> that would require time and motivation...
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[18:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WO9N-7 after 0312 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WO9N-7
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[23:30] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BCHAB1 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BCHAB1
[23:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BCHABP after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BCHABP
[23:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ6OMN-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ6OMN-12
[23:51] xfce (~iposi3@cpe-85-10-26-226.dynamic.amis.net) joined #highaltitude.
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[00:00] --- Sat Jan 28 2017