highaltitude.log.20170119

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[04:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[08:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SH04 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH04
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[09:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SH5 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH5
[09:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SH05 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH05
[09:06] <gonzo_> what triggers SpacenearUS to decide it's a new vehicle?
[09:06] Action: gonzo_ hits return on that and see's the callsign change. pft
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[09:06] <gonzo_> though we do seem to get repeating reports from aprs
[09:10] <hyde00001> morning... PITS RTTY/LORA question.... using a single PITS to send both RTTY and LORA. The RTTY telemetry appears to include an internal temperature item, but the LORA doesn't...is this usual behaviour? is there a LORA specific setting needed to send the temp?
[09:13] <daveake> Int temp is in both
[09:15] <hyde00001> seem only to get a zero value when transmitting LORA
[09:16] <hyde00001> $$SH04,71,09:15:57,51.77114,-1.23424,00075,0,0,12,23.6,0.0,0.000*E0F6
[09:16] <hyde00001> for RTTY
[09:16] <hyde00001> $$SH05,322,09:16:40,51.77111,-1.23421,00069,0,0,12,0.0,0.0,0.000*B1E1
[09:16] <daveake> Looks like a bug if ExternalDS18B20=0 is set with no external sensor
[09:16] <hyde00001> for LORA
[09:16] <daveake> so do ExternalDS18B20=1
[09:17] <hyde00001> aaah
[09:17] <daveake> GPS->DS18B20Temperature[1-Config.ExternalDS18B20]; in rtty.c
[09:17] <daveake> sorry lora.c
[09:18] <daveake> GPS->DS18B20Temperature[(GPS->DS18B20Count > 1) ? (1-Config.ExternalDS18B20) : 0], in rtty.c
[09:19] <daveake> The default pisky.txt has external_temperature=1, so presumably you changed it, which is what has triggered the bug
[09:19] <hyde00001> guilty as charged, yes fiddled with it whilst trying to understand the telemetry strings...
[09:20] <daveake> np it's shown a bug that's been waiting for ages
[09:20] <hyde00001> just set it to 1 in boot file which does fix it...
[09:20] <daveake> yeah
[09:20] <daveake> I'll patch the source soon
[09:20] <hyde00001> will try change to code next...
[09:20] <daveake> yeah just copy that line over
[09:21] <daveake> The setting is needed because if you add an external sensor, the code doesn't know which one is internal and which external
[09:21] <hyde00001> yes, the chips have a hardwired code...
[09:22] <hyde00001> I have eight of them daisy chained on another project and getting them in the right order is a nightmare...
[09:22] <daveake> heh
[09:31] <hyde00001> sudo nano lora.c
[09:31] <hyde00001> yes, thats not going to work in this window...
[09:32] <Vaizki> getting them in the right order..? you can access them directly using the hw id under /sys/bus/w1/devices/<id>/w1_slave
[09:33] <hyde00001> not on an arduino...
[09:33] <Vaizki> ah. ok. I am not going to comment on the quality and bloat of arduino libs...
[09:34] <hyde00001> you probably can do something clever on an arduino, but not at my skill level...
[09:35] <Vaizki> I thought the OneWire library has a search() and select() function.. so you can list connected sensors and then read a specific one
[09:36] <daveake> Sure you can read a particular device, but which device?
[09:36] <hyde00001> it was finding a solution that worked with eight random sensors connected and disconneted in a random order that was getting tricky...
[09:36] <daveake> The s/w just gets a list of devices (each device has it's own code inserted at manufacture)
[09:37] <daveake> Somehow the s/w needs to be told what the function or position of each device is
[09:37] <hyde00001> ...at my skill level...
[09:37] <daveake> At any skill level - can't be done
[09:38] <Vaizki> sure but it seems hyde00001 is having problems with devices switching positions in an array or something
[09:38] <daveake> Right. So somewhere there needs to be an association between device code and function
[09:38] <hyde00001> it was short term thing - monitoring the temp of eight bottles of liquid as they thawed...
[09:38] <Vaizki> usually in a #define if you're hacking something together fast
[09:39] <hyde00001> just had to connect the sensors after the bottles came out of teh -80 freezer..
[09:39] <hyde00001> the cables kept breaking due to teh temp
[09:39] <hyde00001> and so sometimes the sensotrs would work and sometimes not but the order in teh chin kept changing..
[09:39] <hyde00001> in the chain
[09:40] <Vaizki> well yes but if you logged the device id together with the reading you could have sorted that out in post processing
[09:40] <daveake> For PITS, what I could do is if the s/w starts with a single device attached (i.e. PITS board and no external sensor) then store the code of that device. Then if a second sensor is added later, the s/w would know it's different to the onboard one. However this falls apart if both devices are connected on the first boot. So I didn't bother
[09:41] <Vaizki> you could also have a dedicated bus for the onboard one
[09:41] <daveake> could
[09:41] <daveake> tbh we should have not had an onboard one at all
[09:41] <daveake> Just use the GPU sensor
[09:42] <hyde00001> I can't see where the chip is on mine! (not helped by LORA board being on top...). To start with i was wondering if it was there at all, as I got the LORA telemetry working first...
[09:43] <Oddstr13> you'll want to store an array of the 64bit IDs
[09:44] <Oddstr13> heating one and one sensor with your hands, and you'll be able to associate each one with the ID
[09:45] <hyde00001> as an aide, it turned out, putting all the sensors into one bottle turned out to be quite a good way of calculating an offset for each probe - temp reading on several several was a bit out...
[09:45] <Vaizki> yea but then you need a serial command line or something to enter the IDs and store in flash
[09:46] <daveake> github updated
[09:47] <hyde00001> personal service for my idiocy..
[09:47] <Oddstr13> Vaizki: you don't need to enter the IDs, your controller can scan for them, store them, and output the array
[09:48] <Oddstr13> then after that output the readings according to the order of the ID array
[09:54] <Vaizki> sure but if you want to label them "internal" or "external" in the output, the association has to be stored somewhere
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[10:10] <PE2BZ> Good morning. Today I received the story about the Pegasus from last weekend and the max altitude. I paste a link to the (google) translated story
[10:10] <PE2BZ> https://justpaste.it/12kf9
[10:12] <hyde00001> daveake - just telling what you know already... but with a github pull I can now have either setting of externalDS18B20 and LORA telemetry behaves...
[10:13] <daveake> ta :)
[10:16] <hyde00001> got to dash..thanks for all help...
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[10:34] <pb0ahx> !flights
[10:34] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: There are no flights currently :(
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[10:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS21 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS21
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[10:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F1TKE-12 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F1TKE-12
[10:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRF-6 after 035 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRF-6
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[11:05] <MaxLock> Hiya, I'm playing around with a pi zero and an rfm69 to use as a test source for a rtty signal. Any software suggestions that'll control the module and/or encode rtty to it?
[11:05] <MaxLock> All linux of course :)
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[11:08] <craag> MaxLock: There's a few rfm69 libraries around that could be easily ported to use SPI on the pi
[11:08] <gonzo_> http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/
[11:08] <MaxLock> just seen this https://github.com/UKHASnet/ukhasnet-rfm69
[11:08] <craag> in fact, might be worth asking in #ukhasnet as some people use the rfm69 / pi combination there
[11:08] <craag> snap ;)
[11:09] <daveake> gonzo That won't help - doesn't have anything for the rfm69
[11:09] <MaxLock> Thanks I'll keep digging, it seemed like a cheap/obvious hardware combo to fly
[11:10] <daveake> There's rtty code around for the rfm22; probably not a lot different for the 69
[11:10] <MaxLock> planning to replicate this http://www.rowetel.com/?p=4629
[11:10] <craag> Ah! Darkside ^^
[11:11] <MaxLock> I'll try for the 22 too, cheers
[11:11] <gonzo_> ok, I'll shot up and go away!
[11:12] <mfa298> with the rfm69 I think there's a few ways to generate rtty, the only thing I tried a few years ago was by adjustng the frequency lsb setting which seemed to work (at least for slower rtty modes)
[11:12] <MaxLock> ahh, perfect https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:rfm22b ta :)
[11:16] <MaxLock> mfa298 it looks like that's what that page suggests
[11:16] <MaxLock> it'll do for now, but I think I may be able to build a simple transmitter to do higher rates in the future.
[11:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GAS-1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GAS-1
[11:24] <Vaizki> MaxLock, the higher the data rate harder it is to reliably recover bits on the receiver so you need more link budget
[11:24] <Vaizki> or add error correction, redundancy, etc.. take your pick
[11:26] <MaxLock> yup, all of the above, that's what the rowetel blog goes into, great read :)
[11:28] <MaxLock> it's the comparison in one of his posts to lora that got me, the losses due to badly implemented modems are incredible
[11:30] <craag> MaxLock: FYI Darkside in this channel, who may have gone to bed, is the HAB guy working on that with David Rowe
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[11:33] <MaxLock> ok, thanks. I'm a member of Newbury hackspace and we're batting around ideas for a balloon project. despite lora being a decent solution, we were uncomfortable with closed radio comms protocols. Davids info is amazing and if that can be recreated easily it makes for a compelling solution.
[11:34] <mfa298> I think some of what they're achieving isn't possible in the UK due to bandwidth/power limits.
[11:34] <daveake> Be aware that David is using wider bandwidths than you're allowed here, so you won't get the same data rates
[11:34] <daveake> snap
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[11:34] <daveake> Yeah also more powwwer
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[11:35] <MaxLock> yup, thats true, but optimising whats available makes sense.
[11:36] <MaxLock> It'd be nice to equal the lora performance at least
[11:36] <Vaizki> well rtty is not optimal in any other way except simplicity
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[11:39] <MaxLock> agreed :) I think I could build a crystal oscillator that could be pulled with a varactor giving simple fsk. then you can generate a bunch of different modes. a few more gpios and you can do quadrature fsk etc.
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[11:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
[11:48] <Vaizki> if you want to match LoRa for range & sensitivity, I think you need to do 10dB better than (G)FSK
[11:50] <MaxLock> well almost anything would be better than rtty at least :D
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[11:57] <Darkside> hah
[11:57] <Darkside> MaxLock: davids modem, rest of the code is mine :P
[11:58] <Darkside> but yes, not legal to fly in the UK without lowering the baud rate a looong way
[11:58] <Darkside> would probably have to drop to 9600 baud for it to fit within the bandwidth restrictions you have in the UK
[11:58] <Darkside> oh wait
[11:58] <Darkside> that post was the really low rate stuff
[11:59] <Darkside> im thinking more of the 115kbps imagery that we've been doing
[11:59] <Darkside> which is waaaay too wide for the UK
[12:00] <MaxLock> :)
[12:01] <Darkside> works damn well though
[12:01] <MaxLock> Yeah, we're fairly limited. bandwidth is nice for image download etc, but SNR improvements are more important for me
[12:02] <MaxLock> can do a fair amount with 9600 baud if we have to
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[12:46] <gonzo_> what are you plkanning to send?
[12:48] <gonzo_> (talking of 9600 as it that were a low speed is interesting.... For simple FSK, in the UK you should be thinking of 300bd max, if yiou want to use the UKHAS receiving network)
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[13:30] <MaxLock> Oh this is just a bit of fun really, just exploring what could be possible. looking at the rfm69 data sheets it'll do a bunch of modes which'd probably be the simplest start. http://www.airspayce.com/mikem/arduino/RF69/classRF69.html#a4fe41b1fe75743906fa8501961ba6e6ca23b25283ff64ae1cdc0c49b70ea3c5f2
[13:31] <MaxLock> I'll have to work out/find the link budgets for each etc.
[13:43] <Laurenceb> if you want to match LoRa for range & sensitivity, I think you need to do 10dB better than (G)FSK
[13:43] <Laurenceb> wut
[13:43] <Laurenceb> LoRa sucks, there is no "LoRa increase in link margin"
[13:43] <Laurenceb> LoRa is just as good as 2FSK for AFC
[13:44] <Laurenceb> *with AFC
[13:47] <Laurenceb> http://e2e.ti.com/support/wireless_connectivity/proprietary_sub_1_ghz_simpliciti/f/156/t/343273
[13:47] <Laurenceb> ^my obligatory link whenever anyone says "LoRa"
[13:51] <AndyEsser> interesting reading
[13:57] <MaxLock> ditto
[14:06] <Laurenceb> TI guy is a bit bullshitty but point still stands
[14:07] <Laurenceb> there is no place in the LoRa coding where "magic" can happen for coding gain
[14:07] <Laurenceb> in fact its worse than that: there is no bandwidth gain due to the poor choice of modulation
[14:08] <Laurenceb> *no gain in capacity from the excess bandwidth
[14:08] <adamgreig> but it _is_ very trendy and everyone's talking about it
[14:08] <Laurenceb> according to Shannon we should probably use 4PSK with a ton of FEC
[14:08] <Laurenceb> then we would see about 5kbps throughput right to the horizon
[14:09] <adamgreig> didn't think shannon had many opinions on modulation type
[14:09] <Laurenceb> yeah its more subtle
[14:09] <adamgreig> gmsk is going to look just like 4psk too
[14:09] <Laurenceb> I'm not familiar enough with the terminology
[14:09] <adamgreig> I mean according to shannon we should have a big random codebook and transmit gaussian symbols right
[14:09] <Laurenceb> some coding schemes can be rewritten in a new space
[14:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OM4AOZ_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OM4AOZ_chase
[14:10] <Laurenceb> where they will not consume any excess bandwidth
[14:10] <Laurenceb> LoRa is such a scheme
[14:10] <Laurenceb> as is DSSS
[14:10] <Laurenceb> 4PSK + FEC is not, neither is MFSK (although its suboptimal as phase information is left unused)
[14:11] <Laurenceb> the absolute optimal would probably be something QAM with soft decision and very sophisticated FEC
[14:12] <Laurenceb> but we could get close enough with 4PSK and some basic FEC,especially as we are effectively power constrained but not bandwidth constrained
[14:12] <adamgreig> only if you were also doing shaping on the qam constellation, in general it's far from optimal
[14:12] <adamgreig> not sure 4psk is necessarily better than bpsk
[14:12] <Laurenceb> yeah usually QAM is used in bandwidth limited cases and its suboptimal
[14:13] <Laurenceb> when I simulated it it was marginally better
[14:13] <Laurenceb> but yeah, BPSK might be optimal when you consider the effort required - there are BPSK transceiver ICs around
[14:13] <Laurenceb> just transceiver + FEC running on µC
[14:14] <adamgreig> wonder why you saw slight improvement
[14:14] <Laurenceb> because I added a bandwidth constraint to my optimised
[14:14] <Laurenceb> *optimiser
[14:15] <adamgreig> hmm
[14:15] <Laurenceb> about 15khz iirc
[14:15] <adamgreig> yea ok, for fixed power and constrained bandwidth i can see it doing better
[14:15] <adamgreig> but yea in practice i suspect bpsk+good fec would win out a lot
[14:15] <Laurenceb> I already get equivalent results to LoRa with si446x
[14:15] <adamgreig> honestly i think we have a long way to go with bfsk still
[14:16] <Laurenceb> using AFC and TCXO at each end
[14:16] <adamgreig> wouldn't have though the afc has anything to do with tcxo on each end
[14:16] <adamgreig> what bandwidth?
[14:16] <Laurenceb> 200bps
[14:16] <Laurenceb> tcxo allows accurate enough alignment for the AFC to handle the rest
[14:17] <adamgreig> i should hope so
[14:17] <adamgreig> my tcxos are within 400hz or so at 868M
[14:17] <Laurenceb> but yeah I'm not beating LoRa @ 18bps as silabs wont go that slow
[14:17] <adamgreig> hmm
[14:17] <Laurenceb> but this easily beats LoRa at 200bps throughput
[14:18] <adamgreig> I mean it can go a lot slower if you're a bit fiddly with duplicating bits
[14:18] <adamgreig> you lose sensitivity on the preamble and sync detect stuff though
[14:18] <adamgreig> not really worth it anyway, 18bps is stupid
[14:18] <Laurenceb> yeah 200 works fine for uplink... in theory
[14:18] <Laurenceb> havent tested this yet, but it would only break if there is horrific interference
[14:19] <Laurenceb> $50SAT suggests thats far from the case
[14:19] <adamgreig> yea
[14:19] <adamgreig> i have some nice si446x things to play with soon
[14:19] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/30829961474
[14:19] <adamgreig> onboard ldpc enc/dec too
[14:19] <adamgreig> won't win any prizes for power consumption while doing the ldpc decoding but hey
[14:22] <Laurenceb> your board?
[14:22] <adamgreig> yea
[14:23] <Laurenceb> nice work, I like the cover
[14:23] <adamgreig> looks better with the lid on https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/31671070525
[14:23] <Laurenceb> stm32 clocked off the silabs?
[14:25] <adamgreig> yea
[14:25] <Laurenceb> nice
[14:26] Action: Laurenceb has been simulating airspy + ntpd
[14:26] <Laurenceb> for rockoon tracking the median apogee error is about 1.5km
[14:26] <Laurenceb> 95% of inversions were <4km apogee error
[14:26] <Laurenceb> prob not good enough for picoballoon tracking tho
[14:27] <Vaizki> Laurenceb: I thought the 10dB difference was due to the signal being modulated onto a chirp somehow :O .. naybe I am just a victim of marketing
[14:28] <Laurenceb> the chirp modulation has no effect on link budget
[14:28] <Vaizki> of course not
[14:28] <Vaizki> I thought the difference was in rx sensitivity
[14:28] <Laurenceb> you can move the baseband to a "chirp" space where the signal looks sort of like a 2FSK
[14:29] <Vaizki> naturally. and would have the same link budget as 2FSK.
[14:29] <Laurenceb> yup
[14:29] <Laurenceb> DSSS is similar
[14:30] <Vaizki> I have not looked that closely at lora tbh even though I have modules for it
[14:31] <Vaizki> for real low bandwidth stuff, maybe we could do a pseudorandom sequence like gps ;)
[14:31] <Laurenceb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_capacity#AWGN_channel
[14:31] <Laurenceb> W is not necessarily the true bandwidth
[14:31] <Laurenceb> as I said I'm not familiar with the terminology here
[14:31] <Vaizki> I was explaining how GPS signals were so weak to a friend and linked him this .. http://www.trimble.com/gps_tutorial/sub_amplify.aspx
[14:32] <Laurenceb> but I think you could say "W is the bandwidth in the signal space where W is minimized"
[14:32] <Vaizki> and reading it, got to thinking maybe it could be used to send position reports from a floater
[14:32] <Vaizki> then again, they won't get further than the horizon anyway but would be a fun test
[14:32] <Laurenceb> <Vaizki> I've been modelling similar methods for rockoon tracking
[14:33] <Vaizki> similar to what?
[14:33] <Laurenceb> but using differential doppler - an unmodulated carrier
[14:33] <Laurenceb> oh position resports nvm
[14:33] <Laurenceb> thought you were talking about reverse gps
[14:34] <Vaizki> no I was talking about using PRNG to amplify signals carrying position reports
[14:34] <Vaizki> or any other telemetry
[14:37] <Vaizki> GPS signal is about -130dBm when it gets to the surface of the earth.. and still data can be recovered from it at a slow rate
[14:37] <Vaizki> with quite compact devices and crappy antennas no less :)
[14:37] <AndyEsser> it's voodoo magic
[14:38] <Vaizki> umm... no.
[14:38] <AndyEsser> it was a joke
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[14:39] <Vaizki> voodoo is no joke, it's real
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[14:39] <Vaizki> that was actually a lie
[14:39] <AndyEsser> who do the voodoo? you do?
[14:39] <Vaizki> aanyway, gotta cook something...
[14:40] <MaxLock> jt65 is recoverable below the noise floor too, but the data rate is too slow to be much use
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[14:47] <Vaizki> I don't remember the data rate of GPS signals but I think it is below 50bps
[14:47] <AndyEsser> sounds about right
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[14:49] <Laurenceb> yes its 50bps
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[15:06] <MaxLock> So theoretically, if we try 4 or 2fsk with some fec at a couple of kbit that should be fairly reliable.
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[15:16] <SpeedEvil> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-sale-tasteless-balloon-film-ageing_60487798513.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.VFyXiX&s=p
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Though we only do tasteful balloons here
[15:18] <Vaizki> poignant high society balloons
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Rotary-head-pet-balloon-plastic-film_60259655395.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.K4Hlko - heh.
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> If we all chip in $100, we can launch a balloon every couple of minutes for 50p.
[15:19] <Vaizki> no food in the house.. argh.. I'm getting pizza
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[15:28] <SpeedEvil> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/multi-layer-metallized-BOPA-film-for_60535573808.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.K4Hlko - hmm
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> multi layer metallized BOPA film for stratosphere balloon
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[15:32] <Laurenceb> the Alu will crack off during stretch
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[15:32] <richardeoin> SpeedEvil: wait what, they're actually advertising it for 'stratosphere balloon'
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> yes
[15:32] <Laurenceb> it doesnt look that suitable to me
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Well, no.
[15:33] <richardeoin> it's the right stuff: biaxially oriented PA
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[15:33] <SpeedEvil> maybe or maybe not
[15:33] <Laurenceb> yeah but without a layer to stop gas permeating its not too good
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[15:33] <richardeoin> bit on the thin side
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[15:33] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[15:33] <Laurenceb> solar thermal to orbit :P
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[15:34] <richardeoin> would you expect something advertised as 'BOPA' to have an EVOH layer?
[15:34] <Laurenceb> dunno
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=stratosphere+balloon
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> now that is an interesting search
[15:34] <richardeoin> yeah hard to tell: http://www.sojitz-plastics.com/sojitz/?q=node/32
[15:35] <richardeoin> says "Gas .. barrier" but has a diagram saying all three layers are nylon
[15:35] <richardeoin> SpeedEvil: lol, they're using loon promo photos in their ads
[15:36] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> I saw that :)
[15:36] <Laurenceb> 12µm aluminized is almost good enough for solar thermal to orbit
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> If you can get a sphere
[15:37] <Laurenceb> well more like a parabola
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[15:38] <SpeedEvil> yeah
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[15:38] <Laurenceb> unless a long cylinder with 1 axis focussing would work
[15:39] <richardeoin> heh interesting alibaba sellers have figured out their wares could be used for ballooning
[15:39] <richardeoin> still dodgy as heck
[15:39] <Laurenceb> I doubt we are that big a market
[15:39] <richardeoin> there's at least one claiming to sell whole balloons
[15:39] <Laurenceb> unless there are a ton of loon clones operating under the radar
[15:39] <N2NXZ> http://www.gunze.co.jp/e/plastic/products/heptax.html
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: over the radar
[15:40] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:40] <richardeoin> probably evidence of the classic chinese take-customer-design, over-quote, then sell it to whomever else they can
[15:41] <richardeoin> N2NXZ: yeah that's the idea
[15:44] <richardeoin> slightly OT I enjoyed reading https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470928077 , about interaction between chinese and western business practices
[15:44] <N2NXZ> They will not sell me the HEPTAX for national security reasons...exact words by email
[15:45] <richardeoin> N2NXZ: lol, should be possible to source some locally (us?)
[15:46] <richardeoin> to be fair evoh plants are very capital intensive
[15:46] <richardeoin> might be considered a national asset
[15:47] <richardeoin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_vinyl_alcohol wikipedia claims there's 7 sites w/w
[15:47] <N2NXZ> Been searching for over a year.Lots of calls and emails and no one will sell less than large orders.1500 doallrs and better minimal.Got to know someone.
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> richardeoin: on that topic:
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/03/china-and-the-internet-of-things-and-how-to-destroy-your-own-company.html
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> the above blog is very enlightening.
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[15:49] <SpeedEvil> In short - if you don't have a contract in chinese, written according to chinese law, arbitrated in china, your contract means nothing. Also, differences in law mean that you can easily accidentally give away IP without realising it.
[15:51] <richardeoin> N2NXZ: :( I'm not sure if it's more common in europe than the us
[15:51] <richardeoin> I've not heard it called 'heptax' in the european market
[15:51] <N2NXZ> USA forget about buying films.
[15:51] <richardeoin> just barrier film with nylon or strong mentioned somewhere
[15:52] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 0316 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
[15:52] <N2NXZ> I bought 1600ft roll from a company going out of business.Split the cost 3 ways and have a bunch left over.
[15:52] <SIbot7> In real units: 1600 ft = 488 m
[15:53] <richardeoin> SpeedEvil: ah yeah I bet, turns out employing expensive legal people who know the turf is useful
[16:04] <N2NXZ> Question - what is the klm file for google earth with the multi color lines on the globe represent?
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[17:30] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-2 after 0317 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-2
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[19:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-3 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-3
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[19:24] <Laurenceb> https://www.cooking-hacks.com/sigfox-module-for-arduino-waspmote-raspberry-pi-intel-galileo-868-mhz-7184
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[19:47] <kristianpaul> oh wow .co has coverage
[19:47] <kristianpaul> ah but
[20:13] <mattbrejza> i wonder if sigfox/lora can get a big enough foot in the door before LTE R13 starts being rolled out
[20:13] <mattbrejza> although it waits to be seen if that will happen
[20:21] <bertrik> lora is currently happening in the netherlands with TTN (the-things-network) run by volunteers
[20:22] <bertrik> but good coverage is only in a few big cities at the moment
[20:23] <bertrik> the promise of being able to do time-of-flight localisation hasn't been fulfilled yet
[20:24] <Laurenceb> heh I doubt that would happen with LoRa network
[20:24] <Laurenceb> might be possible with sigfox tho
[20:25] <bertrik> for localisation you need at least 3 gateways in range, but you can count yourself lucky if you see one
[20:25] <Laurenceb> you also need timestamping, but sigfox may well do that already
[20:25] <bertrik> also apparently, the time resolution provided by the GWs is nowhere near what is required
[20:26] <Laurenceb> I can imagine that
[20:29] <Laurenceb> sigfox calculates very accurate doppler, that might be useful
[20:29] <Laurenceb> from a balloon you could likely see a lot of base stations
[20:29] <Laurenceb> dunno if that will cause the network to break lol
[20:30] <bertrik> a few balloons with a lora tracker were launched in the netherlands in november, worked quite well
[20:30] <bertrik> and the network takes care of de-duplication of packets
[20:31] <Laurenceb> ok
[20:31] <Laurenceb> if the balloon is moving quite fast you can solve position from differential doppler between stations
[20:31] <bertrik> and there's no need for the GWs to be prepared for the launch, every TTN automatically participates in tracking
[20:32] <Laurenceb> or just stick it all into a kalman filter and hope for the best
[20:54] <SA6BSS-Mike> --------
[20:55] <SA6BSS-Mike> just read about gsp repeating
[20:56] <SA6BSS-Mike> just tooke one of my outside gps antennas and fed it 5V via a bias t
[20:56] <SA6BSS-Mike> and made a 1 wavelength loop at 1575Mhz (gps freq)
[20:57] <SA6BSS-Mike> 19cm of wire and it works, finaly I can sit at my desk and do gps work!!
[20:58] <bertrik> nice
[20:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> its is realy cool, had no idea
[20:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://imgur.com/a/t6Wsi
[20:59] <bertrik> at work we have these windows with some kind of coating on them, they seem absolutely inpenetrable to GPS
[20:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> dont need to be so close, works from over 1meter
[20:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> *as in the picture
[21:00] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok, I saw something about soem window manufacturer put in some passive radiatio element for 3g 4g and so on to get better cellulaar coverage indor
[21:00] <bertrik> I stuck a GPS on the inside of the window -> no fix even after hours of letting it sit there, put in on the outside -> almost immediate fix
[21:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> sound like my hobby corner
[21:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> so easy and cheap, what are one of those gps anrtenna, like 3 pound or so
[21:03] <bertrik> we got ourselves some kind of gps repeater, but your solution sounds a lot simpler
[21:05] <Vaizki> SA6BSS-Mike: that's nice.. then again as earlier disccussed, GPS is -130dBm when it gets to your window so your active antenna pretty much has to repeat the noise floor inside to your desk.. :)
[21:06] <SA6BSS-Mike> exactly, so thats why I never thought it to work
[21:06] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30DB-Car-GPS-Signal-Amplifier-Antenna-External-Receiver-Repeater-Active-Antenna-/252571819598?hash=item3ace741e4e:g:WF8AAOSwpLNX9cVv
[21:07] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://www.landyonline.co.za/off_road/gps_antenna.htm
[21:10] <Vaizki> I have to link that to a friend who volunteers at the local volunteer fire department
[21:11] <Vaizki> I'm sure their gps is pretty lost until they get the fire engine out the garage door.. would be better to get a lock on the gps right away
[21:11] <SA6BSS-Mike> true!'
[21:11] <Vaizki> the real fire departments have expensive commercial gps repeaters which btw require a permit here ;)
[21:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> every second counts
[21:12] <Vaizki> in the UK I think Ofcom wants you to notify them that you have installed one
[21:12] <Vaizki> so they can call you to get rid of it if everyone's GPS in the area puts them inside your garage
[21:13] <SA6BSS-Mike> hehe
[21:26] <daveake> Yes GPS repeaters are licensed here
[21:27] <Vaizki> are they? I thought it was just informing Ofcom.. oh well licensed here, that's for sure..
[21:28] <Vaizki> not worried that anyone would really fine me for an active gps antenna with accidental radiator ;)
[21:29] <Vaizki> ah.. even a 75 GBP fee for indefinite license
[21:37] <daveake> My little repeater has a range of about 0.5m so I doubt anyone will notice :)
[21:38] <Vaizki> sooo I just bought a GPS splitter/amplifier, I will split off a small repeater loop from my GPSDO that already has an outdoor antenn
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[21:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[23:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RSIST after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RSIST
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[00:00] --- Fri Jan 20 2017