highaltitude.log.20170115

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[01:40] <Starwatcher> hi everyone
[01:40] Action: Starwatcher is new here
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[01:57] <Starwatcher> anyone ever experiment with using one of the smaller latex balloons with a very light payload to make a floater?
[01:58] <Starwatcher> I was wondering if you could pull it off with like a kaymont 600 and a 30 gram payload
[01:58] <Starwatcher> with only a few grams of free lift
[01:58] <Starwatcher> the calculator suggests it might be possible, but I'd be interested if anyone has some practical experience
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[02:13] Nick change: Starwatcher -> VE6AZX
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[02:21] <Darkside> VE6AZX: they only last a few days
[02:21] <Darkside> the latex degrades in the UV, and aftwe a few days they burst
[02:21] <Darkside> uhm
[02:22] <Darkside> sorru, yes, the above statement is correct
[02:22] <Darkside> i've tried it a few times with smaller 100g balloons
[02:23] <VE6AZX> how'd it go?
[02:23] <VE6AZX> a few days is probably ok for a start for my project
[02:26] <Darkside> dunno, went OK i guess?
[02:26] <VE6AZX> so you had a really light payload, not very much free lift I'm assuming
[02:26] <VE6AZX> and you were basically able to make a floater with the 100g?
[02:26] <Darkside> yep
[02:27] <VE6AZX> awesome
[02:27] <VE6AZX> I've been doing the small foil balloons
[02:27] <Darkside> hrm, i think it was a 100g
[02:27] <Darkside> it was whatever i had on hand
[02:27] <VE6AZX> but the altitude is so low
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[02:27] <Darkside> might have been a 200 or 300g
[02:27] <VE6AZX> I
[02:27] <Darkside> we've floated a 1600g hwoyee
[02:27] <Darkside> unintentionally
[02:27] <VE6AZX> 1600g is good for this I've heard
[02:27] <VE6AZX> how long did the 1600g last?
[02:27] <Darkside> only a day
[02:28] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/index.php/launch-history/horus-16/
[02:28] <VE6AZX> wish there was a supplier for small zero pressure balloons
[02:28] <Darkside> that was a long time ago
[02:29] <VE6AZX> really cool
[02:29] <VE6AZX> I'm tempted to buy a package of the 300's and see if I can make a better flight than my foil balloon did
[02:29] <VE6AZX> the foil one actually burst, which was unfortunate.
[02:39] <aadamson> VE6AZX, you mean like these - http://www.scientificballoonsolutions.com/products/
[02:39] <aadamson> all of my hirf-x are flying on them
[02:39] <VE6AZX> I didn't know these existed
[02:40] <aadamson> I know some countries have a max size allows (less that 2meters) hence the 12 vs the 13
[02:40] <aadamson> I know Andy down you way flew a couple of them
[02:41] <aadamson> (down easy for me to say) :)...
[02:41] <VE6AZX> fascinating - thanks for the link!
[02:42] <VE6AZX> yeah, I'm trying to decide whether to keep trying with the foil balloons, or to switch to something else for long duration flights
[02:43] <VE6AZX> I've done a bunch of bursting flights before - looking to try some of the micro payloads.
[02:43] <aadamson> so the other option that around here have been doing... 2 - 1 meter party balloon, and split the free lift between them.
[02:43] <VE6AZX> I flew one a few days ago, but I think I over-filled the mylar balloon and it burst at ~14,000 feet.
[02:43] <SIbot7> In real units: 14,000 ft = 4267 m
[02:43] <VE6AZX> (hahahah love that bot)
[02:43] <aadamson> attach them one on top of the other with a safety tether to the main payload attach point
[02:44] <VE6AZX> the dual balloon method has worked for others, then I take it
[02:44] <aadamson> Mylars with light payloads (10grams or less) should be good for around 10km
[02:44] <aadamson> yes, kd2eat and ve3kcl have been around the world that way
[02:44] <VE6AZX> it sounds like it's not a bad path to pursue then
[02:44] <VE6AZX> you use the qualatex 36 inch mylars?
[02:45] <aadamson> some of the guys/gals pre-stretch them as well on nitrogen
[02:45] <aadamson> yes, qualatex 36 inch
[02:45] <VE6AZX> got it
[02:45] <VE6AZX> hmm, pre-stretching is an interesting idea, I didn't think of that.
[02:45] <aadamson> let me see if I can find Mikes Blog (kd2eat)
[02:45] <VE6AZX> it buys you more volume to expand into I guess?
[02:45] <aadamson> a little
[02:45] <aadamson> some say 30%, but I'd question that
[02:46] <aadamson> look through here, he I think talks about what he did to fly that way - http://hojoham.blogspot.com/
[02:46] <VE6AZX> thanks!
[02:47] <aadamson> That's the inexpensive way to have fun anyway :)
[02:47] <aadamson> if I remember he was 5 (maybe 6) grams of free lift, split 50/50 between the 2 balloons
[02:48] <VE6AZX> his payload uses solar cells I see
[02:48] <VE6AZX> and a super-cap
[02:48] <VE6AZX> I was wondering about that
[02:48] <VE6AZX> my homebrew APRS tracker uses three lithium AA's, which might be on the heavy side.
[02:49] <aadamson> yes, most of us do, at 13.5-14km where I'm at, it's -60C and batteries don't work
[02:49] <aadamson> and if using primary cells, they don't last 147 days :)
[02:50] <VE6AZX> 147 days, is very impressive.
[02:50] <aadamson> I just checked, it's actually 145.5 days so far
[02:53] <aadamson> if there is a trick, it's to get as high as you can with as much free lift as you can to clear weather, or survive it if you get into it
[02:53] <VE6AZX> I see
[02:54] <VE6AZX> hmm...
[02:54] <VE6AZX> so I'm thinking from what you've said, that the smaller latex balloons are really not the way to go to try these long duration flights
[02:55] <aadamson> as most said, they will only last a couple of days as the UV degrades the latex and they will burst as a result
[02:55] <aadamson> you *can* float them, but only for a couple of days
[02:55] <VE6AZX> I understand -
[02:56] <VE6AZX> mind if I ask a few more questions? I was thinking about tracking - not sure if I'm really going about it the right way or if there are better options out there
[02:56] <aadamson> fire away?
[02:57] <aadamson> duh and why did I put you in vk land... I saw darkside and got confused... duh
[02:57] <aadamson> ve vs vk... :(
[02:58] <VE6AZX> so I've got a DRA818V VHF transmitter module from china, controlled by a Teensy 3.1 LC microcontroller with a Ublox-6 GPS -
[02:58] <VE6AZX> it's powered by three lithium AAA's in series
[02:58] <aadamson> Well the first part isn't terrible, but that last part is kiling you
[02:58] <aadamson> how much does all that weigh?
[02:58] <VE6AZX> the ublox gps?
[02:58] <VE6AZX> how's that?
[02:58] <aadamson> no the 3 AAA batteries
[02:58] <VE6AZX> oh
[02:58] <VE6AZX> right.
[02:59] <aadamson> do you know how much all of your tracker with batteries weighs?
[02:59] <VE6AZX> yeah, it's about 20g
[02:59] <aadamson> so 20g on about 2.5gr of free lift with a 36 in mylar should be good for around 8-9km
[02:59] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/2016-05-02%2020.50.12%20-%20small.jpg
[03:00] <VE6AZX> ah, so you made a custom board for that then
[03:00] <aadamson> ^ < 1 sq in, ~ 1gr, M0 ARM, ublox gps, solar and main power supply can use either 4.2v or 5v supercap
[03:00] <aadamson> has 2 radios, one for V/UHF and aprs, the other for HF and WSPR
[03:00] <VE6AZX> this is what I think I need to do
[03:01] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/2016-04-07%2022.11.58%20-%20small.jpg
[03:01] <aadamson> all in ~7-8gr with both antennas (1/2 wave on 20 meters, and 1/2 on 2 meters)
[03:02] <VE6AZX> mine was just thin wires between components, wrapped up in a foam sphere.
[03:02] <VE6AZX> that's really impressive.
[03:02] <VE6AZX> what kind of RF module or device did you use to do WSPR?
[03:02] <aadamson> yeah, VE3KCL is flying something similar uses thin mag wire for interconnects with arduino mini, si5351 breakout and gps breakout
[03:03] <VE6AZX> right, the 5351 breakout -
[03:03] <VE6AZX> I'd love to use it
[03:03] <VE6AZX> but the filtering required is killing me
[03:03] <aadamson> he used LDO's for power regulation from solar and either super cap or small lipo (which didn't work very well due to temp)
[03:03] <VE6AZX> inductors are heavy and awkward.
[03:04] <aadamson> yeah, minicircuits make monolithic LPF modules (can't remember if they have one that covers HF however)
[03:04] <aadamson> the real killer is ESD on a trailing 1/2 wave at 14.0965mhz ... :)
[03:04] <VE6AZX> I went digging around to try to find a nice lpf on HF and didn't have a lot of success.
[03:04] <VE6AZX> oh, haha right.
[03:05] <VE6AZX> Do you know if he used an RF amplifier on the 5351, or just went with the 10 mW or so it gives on it's own?
[03:05] <aadamson> mine are running 10-11mW on a 2.7v vcc
[03:05] <aadamson> they will make 13dbm on 3.3v
[03:06] <VE6AZX> so that's probably sufficient on its own then
[03:06] <aadamson> ve3kcl and flown with and without an amp. I suspect it might work a little better, but honestly 10-11mW has been just fine for me
[03:06] <VE6AZX> even during the day, on 20m, you get good contacts?
[03:06] <aadamson> average around 3000-3500km distance on that with a dipole
[03:06] <VE6AZX> oh, wow
[03:06] <aadamson> yeah I'm only flying solar day ops on 20 meters
[03:07] <aadamson> hirfw-3 is being heard from japan to australia right now
[03:07] <aadamson> but it looks like conditions are *great* on 20 today on the asia side of the pacific
[03:08] <VE6AZX> brilliant -
[03:08] <aadamson> s/are/aren't
[03:08] <VE6AZX> I wonder how it would go if I decided to ditch the APRS transmitter, which is really power hungry, and went with only solar + WSPR
[03:08] <aadamson> actually APRS is way more effecient than WSPR.
[03:08] <aadamson> the beacon is < 1 second, where as WSPR is 2mins long
[03:09] <aadamson> and the si5351 draws about 20-25mA during that
[03:09] <VE6AZX> I see, so the integrated power consumption is actually worse for wspr then
[03:09] <aadamson> correct
[03:09] <aadamson> to do WSPR, you need at least 4 mins. 2 in a standard WSPR spot and 2 in telemetry data
[03:09] <aadamson> vs. aprs < 1 second for both
[03:09] <aadamson> BUT
[03:10] <aadamson> aprs is only good for about 5% of the globe, where as WSPR is pretty much good for 100%
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[03:10] <VE6AZX> I understand - so it's probably best that you have both
[03:10] <VE6AZX> ... on that note
[03:11] <VE6AZX> how bad is it to *not* filter harmonics on the SI5351? The power level is very low, but does it really pollute the spectrum?
[03:11] <aadamson> to be honest, I only really use APRS one ascent, once its up and stable, I find that I'm relying on WSPR more even tho the telemetry is courser and less frequent (10 min beacons vs. 2 on aprs)
[03:11] <aadamson> so yeah, if you have it and you are in coverage you love it, but it's not really that necessary once it's up and stable
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[03:12] <aadamson> now if you were going to fly and find, you couldn't do with WSPR only
[03:12] <VE6AZX> right, of course. for a one way trip though, wspr seems to make a lot of sense
[03:12] <aadamson> yeah
[03:12] <aadamson> kd2eat and ve3kcl are WSPR only
[03:13] <aadamson> ah so is wb8elk when he's flying
[03:14] <aadamson> although I think he's working on an APRS/WSPR tracker
[03:14] <VE6AZX> are the harmonics from the SI5351... do they cause problems, if not filtered? What would happen if you were to fly one without a lpf?
[03:15] <aadamson> if I remember right the 5351 is a square wave output, so of course there are harmonics there
[03:15] <VE6AZX> I took a scope to one and it looked kind of triangular at ~14 mhz
[03:15] <aadamson> yeah, probably
[03:15] <aadamson> it's just a clock chip for various on circuit devices
[03:16] <VE6AZX> I guess what I was mostly wondering was if there would be an angry mob if someone put out those harmonics at our low power levels =p
[03:16] <VE6AZX> but I'm sensing that since the distance it covers is so vast - that it's probably a <reallybadidea> (tm)
[03:17] <aadamson> hehe... yeah, can't tell ya, I have a bit of one to knock down the harmonics
[03:17] <VE6AZX> what do you do to eliminate them? Some inductors, or perhaps a module?
[03:18] <VE6AZX> I have a big box of inductors but the things are heavy and fiddly
[03:18] <aadamson> 0402 L's and C's, actually my L's might be 0603's
[03:19] <VE6AZX> ah, the surface mount ones then
[03:19] <VE6AZX> got it
[03:19] <aadamson> yeah
[03:19] <VE6AZX> how many poles did you need to make it work?
[03:19] <aadamson> it's really pretty strange however.
[03:19] <VE6AZX> oh?
[03:19] <aadamson> because the antenna with 38ga mag wire is just a huge resistor (it's a very resistive load)
[03:20] <aadamson> because it's so thin
[03:20] <VE6AZX> what does this imply?
[03:20] <aadamson> that its just harder to get the *tune* right on the LPF without further attenuating it to nothing
[03:21] <VE6AZX> oh, I see
[03:21] <VE6AZX> but I guess once you get it reasonably close enough
[03:22] <VE6AZX> ... well, it seems to work for several people
[03:22] <VE6AZX> I'll stay away from the wound inductors then - those look like a bad time.
[03:22] <aadamson> yeah, they aren't perfect however .
[03:23] <VE6AZX> so to me my new design is looking like 5 volts from solar to charge a supercap - perhaps have the teensy wake up when the voltage is high enough - the si5351 for wspr
[03:23] <VE6AZX> and the dra818v for aprs
[03:24] <aadamson> sounds reasonable. You'll have to scale parts for current capacity as needed
[03:25] <aadamson> and the gps will need to be able to function at whatever altitude you are going to fly plus some cushion
[03:25] <VE6AZX> the ublox 6 seems to be able to do this when set to "air" mode
[03:25] <VE6AZX> the tricky part to me seems to be power management
[03:26] <VE6AZX> the aprs tracker will drain that cap really fast, but wspr needs to run for a while
[03:26] <VE6AZX> perhaps do one, sleep, charge, then do the other
[03:26] <VE6AZX> I'll have to really think about it
[03:26] <aadamson> for example... I know that I get about 50ma of current from my solar boost controller, and my tracker when flying uses about 1.5mah of current (mostly sleeping to keep it very low)
[03:26] <aadamson> so I built a spreadsheet to help me understand what I needed vs used with charging etc
[03:27] <aadamson> if the sun is out, you should be able to run the entire board on solar only
[03:27] <VE6AZX> ah, I understand
[03:27] <aadamson> the supercap is just there in the cases where you might have a shadow on the solar panel due to the tracker, etc
[03:29] <VE6AZX> I wonder if I could do something similar - I'd need the cap to support the short burst from the dra818v, but not for the wspr board
[03:29] <aadamson> I have enough head room in my solar capacity that if I were flying a battery, I could fly during the day and charge the battery in 4hrs even after what it used at night
[03:29] <VE6AZX> mind if I ask what solar cells you're using?
[03:29] <aadamson> I've use 19x32mm and am now using 32x58mm crystal cells, 2 in series
[03:29] <aadamson> as I use a dedicated MPPT controller which needs to see greater than .8v or it won't switch out of startup mode
[03:30] <VE6AZX> understood - so you use a solar charge controller then
[03:30] <aadamson> yes
[03:30] <aadamson> spv1040
[03:30] <aadamson> by changing 2 resistors I can change the output from 4.8v for a supercap, to 4.2v for a Lithium battery
[03:31] <aadamson> that's the *float* voltage
[03:31] <VE6AZX> that's really good then
[03:31] <aadamson> It's a very efficient controller and for little projects they work great
[03:32] <aadamson> a bunch of people on here use them
[03:32] <VE6AZX> I'm beginning to think that fabricating a custom board is really the way to do this
[03:32] <aadamson> thats how you ultimately get the weight down
[03:32] <aadamson> on a party balloon, the ligher the better
[03:34] <VE6AZX> thanks for the information, I really appreciate it. I think I have a direction to go in now that makes more sense than what I was attempting before
[03:34] <aadamson> have fun... I'm off to watch TV and bed :)...
[03:34] <VE6AZX> have a nice evening ^^
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[03:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hundai santa fe_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hundai%20santa%20fe_chase
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[03:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SH5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH5
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[08:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> !flights
[08:29] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-m: Current flights: 03PD0HJ 10(0b72)
[08:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> !Flight pd0hj
[08:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> !Flight 0b72
[08:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> !flight pd0hj
[08:31] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-m: Flight 10(0b72): 03PD0HJ 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Today at 08:00 from 03Littenseradiel, Netherlands 10(53.1414,5.7474)
[08:35] <PB0AHX> GM all
[08:35] <PB0AHX> !flights
[08:35] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX: Current flights: 03PD0HJ 10(0b72)
[08:35] <PB0AHX> !payload 0b72
[08:35] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX: Payload 03PD0HJ 10(0b72) 03$$PD0HJ - 03PD0HJ - 03434.25 MHz USB 03RTTY 300/910Hz ASCII-8 none 2
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[09:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PD0HJ - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PD0HJ
[09:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PD0HJ_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PD0HJ_chase
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[10:18] <PE2BZ> PD0HJ is spot on QRG, but shift is about 610 ´ish
[10:25] SV3ISZ (0257c1c8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.87.193.200) joined #highaltitude.
[10:26] <SV3ISZ> PDOHJ is expected to stay a lot of time on flying?
[10:27] <daveake> 57C ... blimey what else is in there??
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[10:31] <PA3WEG> pretty nice image coming down now
[10:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Not that much I would have thought http://thepegasusballooningproject.nl/
[10:32] <daveake> 45km? Unlikely!
[10:32] <PE2BZ> SVeISZ they are trying to break the high altitude record. They expext it to go above 45 km
[10:32] <daveake> "expect" ?
[10:32] <PE2BZ> No, they have faith in their calculations ;-)
[10:32] <daveake> Would be the highest pits by some margin
[10:33] <daveake> yeah well without a calculation, I tend to disagree :)
[10:33] <PE2BZ> but 57 C ? That´s Central Heating water....
[10:34] <daveake> Perhaps they did *= 1.5 on temp instead of altitude :)
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[10:46] PD0HJ (3e48c147@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.72.193.71) joined #highaltitude.
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[10:58] <PA3WEG> still pretty stable
[11:03] PA0RPA_ (541aeed1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.26.238.209) joined #highaltitude.
[11:03] <PA3WEG> mhhh... I do not show up on the map
[11:03] <PA3WEG> must be a misconfigured laptop, it has been ages since that was on
[11:05] <craag> morning wouter!
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[11:08] <PA3WEG> Mrning craag
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[11:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03car_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=car_chase
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[11:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi what are the setup for PD0HJ, got a signal but no good data?
[11:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> 300/620 8n2
[11:21] <daveake> 23km then. Not quite 45 :/
[11:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ah nevermind, look like burst :-(
[11:22] <PE2BZ> divide by 2 error ...
[11:24] <daveake> :)
[11:25] <craag> It'd be interesting to know how they thought they were going to manage 45
[11:25] <PE2BZ> I´ll ask them on their facebook page.
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[11:26] <craag> I mean just from academic PoV. 23 sounds like just an unlucky early burst
[11:27] <PA3WEG> indeed, having the calculations would be interesting
[11:28] <PE2BZ> craag did you read the story about the test ? HE from a funshop, not enough HE to even lift the payload for a test, to much variables I would guess
[11:28] <daveake> 23 not uncommon with Pawan, but if you want altitude you wouldn't use Pawan anyway
[11:30] <PE2BZ> ¨Finally we received the large balloon from England¨ does not exactly describe the making I guess ?
[11:30] <craag> Probably means it's one of steve's
[11:31] <daveake> or Sis
[11:31] <craag> hah true
[11:32] <craag> that is a *tiny* amount of helium in their test PE2BZ :D
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[11:32] <craag> looks like a low-pressure cylinder, maybe ~0.1m3
[11:33] <craag> quite a bit smaller than the 0.33m3 anyway
[11:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BLAHCOUL01 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BLAHCOUL01
[11:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BLAHPR after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BLAHPR
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[12:01] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[13:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RPF-N1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-N1
[13:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-2 after 0321 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-2
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[14:24] <K2LCT> What is HRF 6 and when was it launched
[14:24] <K2LCT> Link to HRf-6 please
[14:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> K2LCT: wsptr and aprs. launched 20 septemper
[14:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> *wspr
[14:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> thats 20m wspr
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[15:10] <K2LCT> Thanks
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[16:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SH5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH5
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[18:58] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WO9N-7 after 0314 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WO9N-7
[19:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS21 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS21
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[19:33] Nick change: vk5fsck-15 -> vk5fsck
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[00:00] --- Mon Jan 16 2017