highaltitude.log.20161214

[00:00] <Alex______> several preliminary ones with maybe just a cheap camera just to test our method and the tracking system
[00:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> The best to build up, start simp!e
[00:00] <Alex______> once we're confident we can find everything, we'll use the more expensive equipment
[00:01] <Alex______> tracking does seem to be the most complicated part of things from the little research ive done
[00:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Just a simple tracked flight for first, then add more on later flights
[00:01] <Alex______> is there anything major physically that people mess up on alot
[00:01] <craag> !wiki how to lose your flight
[00:01] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Wiki page 03how_to_lose_your_flight - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:how_to_lose_your_flight
[00:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Correct gas fill, and launching into trees!
[00:01] <Vaizki> last minute changes
[00:02] <Alex______> by correct gas fill, do most people underfill it
[00:02] <Alex______> because i assume with the diameter it can reach to, its difficult to 'pop' it at ground level
[00:02] <Alex______> or do you mean damaging the latex etc
[00:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Under filling seems common, climb rate slow, catches trees at launch site, school St the weekend did that
[00:04] <Alex______> probably alarmed by the size of it if its a first time maybe?
[00:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Worth attending someone elses launch beforehand is a good idea
[00:05] <Alex______> how often are they?
[00:05] <Alex______> although distance may be an issue
[00:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> 3 launches in the last weekend then a week or two gap seems common!
[00:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Depends on weather
[00:06] <daveake> yeah very very weather dependent
[00:07] <Alex______> so is winter usually a bad time?
[00:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Try running predictions on a regular basis to get an idea
[00:08] <daveake> On average the winter is worse, but it varies a lot
[00:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Once your more certain of a launch site ask for an Hourly predictor
[00:09] <daveake> e.g. this is mine http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/oldgore/
[00:10] <daveake> from that, there are days too close to the sea or too close to some cities
[00:10] <Alex______> why do some people use LorA to get better live images
[00:10] <Alex______> surely the real images they want
[00:10] Action: kc2pit goes through the How To Lose Your Flight and checks off item after item...
[00:11] <Alex______> theyll get physically when they retrieve the device
[00:11] <daveake> It's nice to have live images
[00:12] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> If you don't recover ,......
[00:12] <Alex______> but there are still live images from the basic PITS, just low resolution right?
[00:12] <daveake> yup
[00:12] <Alex______> i have a cheap but surprisingly decent quality chinese fake gopro
[00:12] <Vaizki> And you can see what kind of tree you landed in
[00:12] <daveake> true!
[00:13] <Alex______> can you set some up that both record to their sd card and connect via USB to the pi to send images back?
[00:13] <Alex______> or is it alot easier to have 2 cameras
[00:13] <Alex______> a pi cam and a better one
[00:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Try it in a freezer and near a GPS receiver first!
[00:14] <Alex______> yeah
[00:14] <Alex______> what temperatures are usually the best to test
[00:14] <Alex______> how low do they get that high
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[00:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Depends on how much heat they generate and how quickly you get the heat away!
[00:15] <Alex______> you guys use handwarmers?
[00:16] <daveake> hahaha no
[00:16] <Alex______> oh
[00:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> External temp. Can be -40 easily
[00:16] <Alex______> wow
[00:16] <Alex______> and why not?
[00:16] <Alex______> seemed a pretty cute idea to me
[00:16] <daveake> because not needed
[00:16] <Alex______> do they risk overheating?
[00:16] <Alex______> why not
[00:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Getting rid of heat at low air pressure is a problem
[00:17] <daveake> because with a modest amount of insulation, and especially with a Pi and/or camera inside, it won't get that cold
[00:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> No convection
[00:17] <Alex______> ok
[00:17] <mfa298> most of the handwarmers that last a decent time require air to work (and thers not much ar up there)
[00:17] <kc2pit> Don't hand warmers depend on atmospheric oxygen? I'd expect the heat output to be terribly variable with altitude.
[00:17] <kc2pit> Yeah, that.
[00:17] <Alex______> do you guys have a preferred place to buy the balloons
[00:18] <Alex______> ive only really found ebay that sells from uk
[00:18] <daveake> yes http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Welcome.html
[00:18] <Alex______> but the picture isnt that good quality
[00:18] <daveake> don't buy elsewhere and especially don't buy a Pawan balloon
[00:19] <Alex______> ok thanks
[00:19] <Alex______> for a preliminary balloon would around 350g/600g be better (for PITS and a gopro weighted device only)
[00:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Repeat , repeat
[00:19] <Alex______> i dont get how you decide what ascent speed is good
[00:19] <Alex______> or what lifting force etc
[00:20] <daveake> yeah they cost less, use less gas, and won't travel so far as a larger balloon
[00:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Have you found the calculators?
[00:20] <Alex______> yeah some
[00:20] <Alex______> but they all say
[00:20] <mfa298> unless of course you want something to perform worse than expected, in which case you could buy a pawan :p
[00:20] <daveake> :/
[00:20] <Alex______> assume here that you'll want an XYZ lift thrust thingy
[00:20] <daveake> http://habhub.org/calc/
[00:20] <Alex______> yeah like this
[00:20] <daveake> Aim for 5m/s as a guide
[00:21] <Alex______> ah
[00:21] <Alex______> 5m/s
[00:21] <Alex______> why would one want a faster/slower one
[00:21] <Alex______> is it just battery life etc would want quicker or...
[00:21] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Less than 2m/s and you may float
[00:21] <daveake> depends what you want to achieve
[00:21] <daveake> faster costs more gas and doesn't go so high
[00:21] <daveake> lower risks a wet landing or a float
[00:22] <Alex______> oh so faster ones pop at lower altitudes?
[00:22] <mfa298> faster ascen means more gas, so it expands to the burst diameter sooner
[00:23] <Alex______> oh yeah
[00:23] <Alex______> but
[00:23] <Alex______> other than why you WOULDNT want a too fast/slow one
[00:23] <Alex______> why would you want it to be faster/slower
[00:23] <Alex______> i.e. why isnt the target ascent rate locked at 5m/s if its a good guide
[00:23] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Distance to landing
[00:23] <Vaizki> to land it safe
[00:24] <mfa298> also aim for around 5m/s descent, and consider whether the payload is something you want coming down on your car/child/greenhouse/head at that speed
[00:24] <Alex______> oh so if you need a really close distance you'll want it to be fast
[00:24] <Vaizki> aye
[00:24] <mfa298> changing the ascent and descent rates (and so altitude) will afect where it goes
[00:24] <Alex______> and mfa298 does ascent rate relate that much to descent rate
[00:24] <Alex______> seeing as theres no longer a baloon
[00:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Or little wind
[00:25] <Alex______> ok then why would you want a slow one?
[00:25] <Alex______> if you need really high?
[00:25] <Alex______> or if you purposefully want a long flight duration?
[00:25] <Alex______> that it?
[00:25] <mfa298> descent will be down to the parachute, but it's important to consider in terms o the prediction
[00:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Play with predictor change ascent rate burst height etc
[00:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> At the same time day
[00:27] <Alex______> ok i will
[00:27] <udat> what data/knowledge does the predictor use for its predictions?
[00:27] <mfa298> for a normal flight you probably wnt ascent in the 4-6 m/s range. so 5m/s is a good starting point
[00:27] <udat> assume weather for part of it
[00:27] <mfa298> lower ascent rate might float, higher ascent costs lots more in gas
[00:27] <Alex______> im just curious as to how people decide 'oh i want a 40000 burst height' unless its science why not do default
[00:27] <Alex______> i cant understand why you'd want a higher/lower ascent rate
[00:28] <Alex______> but why certain height
[00:28] <Alex______> why not jsut accept, oh thats the highest ill be able to get with this ascent rate i need
[00:28] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Records are interesting to some
[00:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> So height is a record
[00:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Distance, duration etc.
[00:29] <mfa298> sometimes it's down to predictions
[00:29] <Alex______> oh so height is often just the nerd factor?
[00:29] <mfa298> more time in the higher winds might bring the landing position closer to the launch position
[00:30] <udat> Global Forecast System (GFS)
[00:30] <daveake> I had one a couple of weeks ago where the high level (33km-40km) winds were fast (up to 265mph) and I wanted to get it across the country (so someone else recovered it). I used a large balloon and a slightly low ascent rate to do that
[00:30] <Alex______> ah interesting
[00:30] <Alex______> thats the pro level decisions
[00:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Often the Jetstream is in reverse direction to ground level winds
[00:31] <daveake> Yup, so sometimes you need to get it high just to bring it back from where it was going
[00:31] <mfa298> Alex______: spend some time with the predictor playing with different values and different days and see how things vary
[00:31] <udat> daveake: is there somewhere to see this in a human readle output?
[00:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Track other flights you learn a lot by doing so
[00:31] <udat> readable
[00:31] <mfa298> also join the mailing list and watch the tracker (and here) to see what happens
[00:32] <Alex______> in terms of radar
[00:32] <mfa298> ideally also try receiving them as thats good practice
[00:32] <Alex______> do you guys line the payload with aluminium foil
[00:32] <Alex______> or do you do more advanced things/not bother
[00:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Do you where a foil hat?
[00:32] <Alex______> only on tuesdays
[00:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> :)
[00:33] <Alex______> lol so alot of this advice on the internet is just BS
[00:33] <daveake> e.g. compare these 2 predictions - same parameters except for burst altitude - 30km = http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=cd5e702afe6c7b11a1d57600a52ab6acf6ef5dd3 40km = http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=a49543b0c47de2edae05392e75cd09ede3a7360a
[00:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Yes
[00:33] <mfa298> aluminium foil and payloads dont always mix (particularly if the antennas are inside)
[00:34] <Alex______> how do you calculate descent rate on this
[00:34] <daveake> calc on http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[00:35] <gonzo_> you would need a very big radar reflector to be seen by atc radars
[00:35] <Alex______> you guys have any stories about close calls with airports/aircraft/motorways etc
[00:35] <mfa298> half the random advice on the internet is from other countries with different laws
[00:35] <Alex______> maybe not you, but people int he community
[00:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> East Anglia has a lot of military airfields
[00:37] <daveake> and a firing range
[00:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> But they may bring it to the gates for you, or invite you in....
[00:37] <daveake> and lock you in
[00:37] <Alex______> but im guessing camera's over military airfields isnt the best situation
[00:37] <Alex______> ahaha
[00:38] <daveake> I got accidentally (I think) locked in an MOD firing range
[00:38] <daveake> The Pawan balloon (now you know why I mentioned them) burst at half the altitude it should have
[00:38] <daveake> and it landed on MOD property
[00:38] <daveake> They were very helpful
[00:39] <gonzo_> the only case I know of where a balloon has directly affacted an aircraft, was where a met balloon released on an airfield by the airfield met people, blew across and got caught up on the wing of a light aircraft
[00:39] <daveake> hah
[00:39] <Alex______> what brand are your favourites then
[00:39] <Alex______> not pawan
[00:39] <Alex______> but what
[00:39] <Alex______> or are all the others decent
[00:39] <daveake> Hwoyee for altitude; Totex for reliably bursting when they're supposed to
[00:40] <Alex______> what about the kayathing one
[00:40] <Alex______> kaymont
[00:40] <daveake> But I've had Pawans burst early, have a leak, have damage on them straight out of the bag
[00:41] <daveake> Kaymont distribute Totex balloons
[00:41] <Alex______> oh
[00:41] <Alex______> i realised there werent any kaymont on that website
[00:41] <Alex______> where do you get your helium from as well
[00:41] <Alex______> this is linked to a school
[00:41] <Alex______> so we can probably nick some of theirs
[00:42] <Alex______> but still
[00:42] <daveake> click4balloons or balloonhealium.co.uk
[00:42] <daveake> -a
[00:43] <Alex______> yeah i found balloonhelium as a good possible
[00:44] <Alex______> are you the david akerman of the 50% of the internet to do with HABs?
[00:45] <daveake> 5%
[00:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> You mean 50% Dave?
[00:45] <daveake> and speaking of which, have a read of http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[00:45] <Alex______> you're basically the spokesperson for HABs in the UK
[00:45] <daveake> nah there's plenty of others
[00:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Steve is the other 50%?
[00:46] <daveake> anyway read that it'll answer most of the questions you haven't asked yet
[00:46] <daveake> yep
[00:46] <Alex______> ahaha steve who
[00:46] <Alex______> evidently not
[00:46] <daveake> Steve Randall
[00:46] <daveake> He runs the balloon store I linked to earlier
[00:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> roketboy on here
[00:46] <daveake> and if you've seen HAB on telly, it's probably Steve
[00:47] <mfa298> at least if it's hab done well
[00:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Unless it includes Eclipses
[00:47] <mfa298> if not it's probably CH / SiS
[00:48] <daveake> er yeah, it it's a HAB being lost then it's ... <lost_carrier>
[00:49] <Alex______> are the only DIY tutorials for this for arduino?
[00:49] <Alex______> or is there a pi one too
[00:49] <Alex______> although i suppose if im going to try to have several missions with this i probably wouldnt trust my soldering handiwork for reliability
[00:50] <mfa298> some of the arduino stuff you can apply to the pi and other micros
[00:50] <Alex______> ahaa is it alot cheaper to DIY?
[00:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Most code is on within anyway for all types
[00:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Witihn/github
[00:51] <mfa298> although you my need to think about what to connect where on the pi. bitbanging isn't so easy when you care about timings
[00:52] <Alex______> TBH i feel like seeing as im new to everything here, giving myself another area to learn into the ground isnt wise
[00:53] <Alex______> oh yeah, how often do you guys usually have it transmit
[00:53] <mfa298> get tracking other peoples flights early and poentially join them for launch/chase
[00:53] <Alex______> ik its a compromise with battery life
[00:53] <mfa298> you'll get to learn a lot from that
[00:53] <Alex______> yeah ill try
[00:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Continuous for up/burst/down flights
[00:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> For Pico or floats it's another factor
[00:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> As power is limited
[00:54] <mfa298> on a pi I suspect continous tx makes little differeence to battery life in the sceme of things (a few mA for the tx compared to the pis higher draw)
[00:55] <Alex______> do people aim for floats?
[00:55] <Alex______> how long?
[00:55] <Alex______> why not just get a drone ahaha?
[00:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Look for ubseds18 or B64
[00:55] <mfa298> some do, one of the current ones is at 2-3 months floating around the world
[00:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> How many loops of the earth do you reckon?
[00:56] <Alex______> on 1 battery life?
[00:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Solar and battery
[00:56] <Alex______> ah yes
[00:56] <Ian_> Or just solar.
[00:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> B64 record 10 orbits
[00:56] <Alex______> out of itnerest
[00:57] <Alex______> how many PITS or similar units do you gives go through
[00:57] <Alex______> like how many projects can each one do
[00:57] <Alex______> or is it literally if you get it back its good to go
[00:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Some have lasted years
[00:57] <mfa298> it's probably best to concentrate on up/down flights first. The long floaters are custom (lightweight) pcbs and custom balloons
[00:57] <Alex______> cos i'd assume the rought conditions would affect all electronics
[00:57] <Alex______> yeah im not going to do a floater but its interesting
[00:58] <daveake> I've yet to kill a pits
[00:58] <Ian_> B64 was one in a sequence B01 through B66 over a period of around eighteen months if my memory serves me well. Incremental improvements all along the way until Leo hit the sweet spot that he was looking for. How does that look on a CV?
[00:58] <Alex______> do you case the pi/PITS or just tape it etc to the inside of the main container
[00:58] <daveake> Should last for as many flights as you like, so long as you don't drop it on a rock unprotected, or similar
[00:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/
[00:59] <daveake> Fix it in with foam supports usually
[00:59] <daveake> You don't want it or anything else bouncing around
[00:59] <Alex______> but what about sudden rain/anything
[00:59] <Alex______> or is it it serves you right for not planning it well enough
[01:00] <daveake> it's a mostly sealed box - just a hole in the side for a camera lens perhaps, so rain shouldn't get in
[01:00] <Alex______> but its polystyrene right
[01:00] <daveake> yes
[01:00] <Alex______> not the most water resistant
[01:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Might float on the sea then as wr
[01:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> L!
[01:00] <daveake> oh yes it is
[01:00] <Alex______> oh wow
[01:01] <Ian_> Filling a balloon in rain ensures that some poor sucker gets his sleeve/s full of cold water as he holds the balloon and all that surface area collects and directs it wristwards
[01:01] <Alex______> how much of your salaries go into this ahaha
[01:01] <daveake> sea water is something you don't want
[01:01] <Alex______> 64 modifications?
[01:01] <Alex______> thats alot of helium/balloons
[01:01] <Alex______> could do an 'Up' house with that number
[01:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Pico's so less
[01:02] <Ian_> Not recommended, but some times it's part of the plan (not often) or there are other constraints that might make it worthwhile.
[01:02] <Ian_> Not 64 modifications, they were all floaters, 64 virgin flights
[01:02] <Ian_> Floater = no-return-to-sender
[01:03] <Alex______> so even more expensive
[01:03] <Ian_> Yup
[01:03] <Ian_> Dedicated :)
[01:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Bug normally only gas and tracker
[01:03] <Alex______> and tracker
[01:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> No cameras to heavey
[01:04] <Ian_> On a really good day, it's business research . . .
[01:04] <Alex______> isnt that the most expensive bit
[01:04] <daveake> The guaranteed loss is the gas, balloon and petrol
[01:04] <daveake> everything else should be good for another day
[01:04] <daveake> well, string and some cable ties
[01:05] <daveake> I tend not to re-use payload boxes but they can be reused usually
[01:05] <Alex______> do you guys point cameras straight down, or on side
[01:05] <Alex______> side would see curve more probably
[01:05] <daveake> side, perhaps aimed down slightly
[01:05] <Alex______> ah
[01:05] <daveake> down is boring imo
[01:06] <Alex______> you guys use gopros or cheaper?
[01:06] <daveake> up can be good if you have a video to record the burst
[01:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Unless you. Want to see balloon burst!
[01:06] <daveake> hate gopros
[01:06] <Alex______> they are overpriced
[01:06] <daveake> unreliably
[01:06] <daveake> +e=y
[01:06] <Alex______> wish i had one tho
[01:06] <daveake> Nah get a Git2
[01:06] <daveake> half the price almost as good quality doesn't crash
[01:07] <Alex______> chinese?
[01:07] <daveake> yes
[01:07] <daveake> they work
[01:07] <daveake> GoPros don't have great reliability
[01:07] <Alex______> i have an eken h8
[01:07] <Alex______> surprised with quality
[01:07] <Alex______> even 4k isnt bad
[01:08] <Alex______> but with chinese, if you want good 1080p, go for 4k and 1080p will be decent
[01:09] <Alex______> i used to be quite into RC planes
[01:09] <Alex______> you guys see that guy try to fly one down from a weather balloon?
[01:10] <Alex______> fpv too
[01:10] <daveake> Illegal here and, probably, where he was too
[01:10] <Alex______> america
[01:10] <Alex______> yeah probably
[01:11] <daveake> Guy in Sweden did it
[01:11] <Alex______> fpv is
[01:11] <Alex______> yeah it might be that guy
[01:11] <Alex______> thought he was in america tho
[01:11] <Alex______> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpBnurznFio
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[01:20] <Ian_> I believe, from my reading, that Go Pro's new cameras aren't quite the force and quality that they were and the quality competition is growing fast. A standard model of potential business failure I guess!
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[01:21] <Alex______> is there another webchat to #highaltitude
[01:24] <Ian_> I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I watch also #ukhasnet, but that is similar people and mesh radio and the #habhub channel is a low noise channel for the admins to discuss infrastructure issues, posting flight documents for approval etc.
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[01:24] <Alex______> oh right
[01:25] <Ian_> What part of the UK are you from? I'm slightly West of Birmingham near the M5 J2
[01:26] <Alex______> south manchester
[01:28] <Alex______> im surprised you guys stay up this late
[01:29] <Ian_> I go to bed late, but alas, I still get my eight hours, so I'm in danger of a big lighting bill and not a lot of daylight as the winter progresses.
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[01:30] <Ian_> Mostly the channel quiesces around 2300 is and sometimes the USA and Australia are busy
[01:31] <Ian_> I just reconnect to the channels each day to clear my scrolll back and generally suck up all that's going on
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[03:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS21 after 037 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS21
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[07:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[07:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ER1SC_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ER1SC_chase
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[08:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ER1TUM/AM after 0321 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ER1TUM%2FAM
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[08:58] <SA6BSS-Mike> listening on 144.8 on http://sdr.rk0w.ru:8015/
[08:58] <SA6BSS-Mike> got this
[08:58] <SA6BSS-Mike> M0SBU-13 audio level = 7(2/3) [NONE] __|||____ [0.3] M0SBU-13>APRS,WIDE2-1:!/3u?(e.Z-O /A=048762 RA101804z4LS:Mm]I8PKLM_A#A:!'|&0M>Yh9Y?>!.| Position, BALLOON, Generic, (obsolete. Digis should use APNxxx instead) N 52 33.4819, E 089 38.1595, alt 48762 ft Seq=470, A1=4033, A2=5167, A3=2240, A4=2759, A5=13 RA101804z4LS:Mm]I8PKLM_A#A:!'
[08:58] <SIbot> In real units: 48762 ft = 14863 m
[08:59] <SA6BSS-Mike> ha, it got reported and the balloon jumped :)
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[09:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> then I know the direwolf is correct configured and reporting in, not doing much aprs
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[09:06] <SA6BSS-Mike> its strong on 145.825 as well (as expected)
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[09:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PYSKY after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PYSKY
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[10:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SV3CIX_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SV3CIX_chase
[10:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SY3BFO_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SY3BFO_chase
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[11:03] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[11:03] <AndyEsser> Typing "High Altitude Wales" to try and get some photos of the Welsh coastline etc, into Shutterstock
[11:03] <AndyEsser> all photos of landscapes up hills/mountains
[11:03] <AndyEsser> your High Altitude and my High Altitude are not the same...
[11:04] <StuartL> https://f4.bcbits.com/img/a3285096787_10.jpg
[11:04] <fsphil> lol
[11:04] <AndyEsser> StuartL: well played sir
[11:04] <fsphil> soon to be friends with the ground
[11:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> :)
[11:12] <Vaizki> I read High Altitude Wars and was already getting excited
[11:12] <StuartL> That's a competition :)
[11:12] <StuartL> Trying to down other people's balloons.
[11:12] <StuartL> Might not make a good spectator event.
[11:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> In the air Opertion Outward eh ?
[11:13] <StuartL> "And HAB1 was approaching MYBALLOON at 20mph until he got caught in the JetStream and is now over Moscow!"
[11:15] <Vaizki> I will enter with the hypnohab.. flying lawnmower engine & blade
[11:16] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: not quite as good as Star Wars
[11:16] <AndyEsser> but better than World Wars?
[11:17] <StuartL> Vaizki: And a balloon the size of Hampshire? :D
[11:18] <edmoore> dStruct: is there another go at launching today?
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[11:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> from habhub <SpacenearUS> Launch: Tomorrow at 12:00 UTC from Epsom (51.314,-0.25)
[11:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> thats today
[11:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> it was written yeasterday so it should launch today
[11:21] <AndyEsser> SA6BSS-Mike: not a HAB launch :P
[11:21] <AndyEsser> Pegasus launch
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[11:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Hope they don't burst early!
[11:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=7ec7e9901ac0c16a12e9cb4a80ad6e6ad1442817
[11:27] <gonzo_> or overfly london
[11:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ha
[11:28] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> It is a Pico so should be OK
[11:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> provided they don't leak ...
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[11:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[12:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hello_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hello_chase
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[12:52] <pb0ahx> !flights
[12:52] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03ER1TUM/AM SAT-TEST-2 10(104f), 03Epsom BDBC 10(3611), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5), 03UBSEDS21 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(2e88)
[12:52] <pb0ahx> !payload 3611
[12:52] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Payload 03Epsom College Final 10(3611) 03$$BDBC7 - 03BDBCEPSOM - 03434.4 MHz USB 03RTTY 50/496Hz ASCII-8 none 2
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[13:09] <pb0ahx> go PYSKY flying today ????
[13:13] <daveake> no. testing new code.
[13:13] <pb0ahx> tnx info daveake
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[14:12] <Al_> Hi everyone
[14:13] Nick change: Al_ -> Guest74160
[14:15] <Guest74160> I am in the final stages of building my weather balloon payload, and was wondering if you had some suggestions as to the length of rope between the payload and parachute, and between parachute and balloon?
[14:17] <fsphil> hey. it varies, I normally do 10 metres from balloon to payload, with the parachute 2/3 of the way up
[14:20] <Guest74160> thanks, my payload is only around 1100g, does this matter?
[14:20] <Vaizki> 1mm braided nylon
[14:20] <Vaizki> before you ask! :)
[14:21] <Vaizki> only 1100g.. what do you mean only.. :O
[14:21] <Vaizki> ack fire alarm..!
[14:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> hehe, my latest is 2 grams (tracker only :))
[14:22] <gonzo_> oops, what did you do?!
[14:22] <fsphil> longer cords seem to make things a bit more stable
[14:22] <Guest74160> wow, ok sorry. I am new to this and working on it as part of a science club project
[14:23] <Guest74160> we are sending gopros which accounts for the weight
[14:23] <fsphil> 1100g ain't too bad
[14:23] <Guest74160> thank you fsphil
[14:24] <fsphil> the chute being 2/3 of the way up helps stop the remains of the balloon hitting the payload
[14:25] <Guest74160> so, perhaps 6m between payload a parachute and 4m between parachute and balloon?
[14:26] <fsphil> yeah that'd work too, then whatever's left of the balloon after it bursts will hang 2m above the payload
[14:28] <SA6BSS-Mike> Guest74160: where are u launching from?
[14:32] <Guest74160> ah, I see. thanks
[14:32] <Guest74160> we plan to launch from our school in Essex
[14:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok
[14:35] <Guest74160> Weather and CAA approval pending obviously!
[14:36] <fsphil> urg, weather
[14:36] Nick change: Wiktor -> gluteusmaximus
[14:37] Nick change: gluteusmaximus -> Wiktor
[14:40] <gonzo_> is this your first launch?
[14:41] <gonzo_> essex is not a good place to be launching big balloons from. As you will only have limited options of when to launch. And the probability is, the winds will take your flight out to sea
[14:42] <gonzo_> sending up a small 'pico' balloon first is a good first step
[14:42] <Guest74160> yes it our first launch
[14:43] <gonzo_> pico balloons are ones that don't need CAA permission. So you can wait for the winds to be in the right direction and launch with little notice
[14:43] <gonzo_> having to get permission for a few days, 28days in advance is very limiting
[14:44] <Guest74160> Unfortunately we have limited resources and multiple launches aren't really an option. I realise the risk of prevailing winds carrying the balloon out to sea but as it is a launch from our school it would be a massive shame to not have all the students present when the launch takes place.
[14:44] <gonzo_> and a good % of the time, the winds are going to be taking you east
[14:45] <gonzo_> you can still have a lot of fun and get some good science from flying a simple tracker
[14:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> small balloon filled for rapid accend - low burst
[14:45] <Guest74160> My plan is to monitor the weather closely, using the flight predictors etc and if necessary reschedule the flight
[14:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> good plan!
[14:45] <gonzo_> and smaller balloons you can fill from disposable cylinders. Which can be put on one side till you get the winds you want
[14:46] <Guest74160> as an absolute last resort we can change the launch location. but that would be a shame
[14:47] <gonzo_> you have to apply for permission a month before and you will typically get a window of a few hours on a few days
[14:47] <gonzo_> and that is for a fixed location
[14:48] <Guest74160> Yes, I have already applied for dates in science week of next year. If I have to reschedule I will have to delay by at least a month as you say.
[14:49] <Guest74160> Unfortunately we have already bought most of the kit so buying more resources isn't an option
[14:49] <gonzo_> ok, you have looked into it. Just making sure you were aware of the limitations
[14:51] <gonzo_> recommend that you get your receiving system going asap and practice by tracking other groups flights
[14:51] <Guest74160> If we have to reschedule it might not be a bad thing as the weather will improve. Just science week would be ideal as the theme is space, but we have a astrology activity planned as a back up
[14:51] <gonzo_> a good receiving system at the launch site seems to be often overlooked and a common reason for failure
[14:52] <fsphil> astrology?
[14:52] <gonzo_> I wasn't going tp pick that up
[14:53] <Guest74160> I have an antenna installed on the school roof and is functioning. I can track our own payload when tested out of the school field. how do i go about tracking others?
[14:54] <gonzo_> join the UKHAS google group, where launch announcemnents are made and look at the flights listed on the habhub tracking page
[14:54] <Guest74160> Sorry, Astronomy. Astrology doesn't quite fit with science week!
[14:54] Action: fsphil unreleases the hounds
[14:55] <gonzo_> come into this channel when the flights are schedualled and you will get more up to date info on if the launch is going ahead and peoples chatter on when they are reciving signals etc
[14:55] <fsphil> I'm not sure when the next flight is
[14:56] <daveake> Me. Saturday. Maybe.
[14:56] <gonzo_> what is your receive system Guest74160?
[14:56] <fsphil> I'm planing on doing something over the holidays but it probably won't be normal rtty
[14:57] <gonzo_> I really should do another flight. HAs been 18mths?
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[14:57] <Guest74160> We have 2m 70cm collinear base station antenna installed, feeding into an airspy mini
[14:58] <fsphil> nice
[14:58] <gonzo_> Guest74160, ok, a damn good start then
[14:59] <gonzo_> people here can advide on the setup of the sw, and you can track some flights.
[14:59] <Guest74160> Unfortunately, my level of understanding is minimal. but it is a very big stick
[15:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Have you used dl-fldigi at all yet ?
[15:01] <gonzo_> having a portable system to take in the chase car is also good. The network of people here will probably be able to receive down to a few 100mtrs (depending on where it lands) but having something that will allow you to get a landing posn when you get to site is pretty important
[15:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Also if your launching from the school ask for a Hourly predictor to be set up for you.
[15:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> it allows you to see the flight path on every hour for several days ahead.
[15:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> No signs of BDBC7 I guess they thought better of flying over London!
[15:09] <daveake> hopefully
[15:10] <StuartL> Currently being transported on the Underground to launch from the top of Nelson's Column ;)
[15:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Oh, extra weight from Pigeon droppings to take into account then!
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[15:24] <AndyEsser> Solicitor wants 4-5 hours to handle my office lease
[15:24] <AndyEsser> at £250+VAT an hour...
[15:24] <AndyEsser> that's basically the annual rent of the office...
[15:24] <AndyEsser> I might just.... wing it
[15:25] <gonzo_> apply common sense and read the small print
[15:25] <StuartL> I'm not sure conveyancing solictors are worth the money they're paid.
[15:25] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: yea, I've read it all - have spoken to landlord about questions
[15:25] <AndyEsser> and nothing gives me a red flag
[15:25] <StuartL> Both of my house purchases I found things they missed and the one commercial purchase I did the solicitor utterly screwed up and missed something catastrophic.
[15:25] <AndyEsser> and as its the council, and not a private landlord, I'm inclined to just... go for it
[15:25] <AndyEsser> StuartL: oof
[15:26] <StuartL> AndyEsser: I did my own analysis for the council lease for the hackspace.
[15:26] <AndyEsser> btw - any members of the Royal Aeronautical Society here?
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[15:26] <AndyEsser> StuartL: 1) Apply Common Sense 2) Sign 3) ???? 4) Profit
[15:26] <AndyEsser> ?
[15:26] <AndyEsser> :P
[15:26] <StuartL> One advantage of the council is that they're not out to screw you, they just want income to cover short-fall.
[15:26] <AndyEsser> yea, that was basically my thoughts
[15:26] <gonzo_> at that rent, they just want a way of allocating grant money
[15:28] <gonzo_> like the lottery. It's a lot of hoop jumping through to start with, but once you are in, it's easy foir them to keep bunging you money
[15:29] <AndyEsser> I'll get the solicitor involved when I move to the larger office next year
[15:29] <AndyEsser> 15m^2 to 100m^2 :)
[15:29] <fsphil> what are you going to be doing in these offices?
[15:29] <AndyEsser> selling my wares
[15:29] <AndyEsser> :P
[15:29] <StuartL> Expanding his porn empire.
[15:29] <fsphil> lol
[15:29] <AndyEsser> fsphil: Software Development to pay the bills
[15:29] <AndyEsser> PCB build+test
[15:29] <gonzo_> why did I read that as 'wives' ?
[15:29] <AndyEsser> 3d Printing
[15:29] <AndyEsser> so HAB construction :P
[15:30] <AndyEsser> but there's no money in that unless you're Upu or daveake :P
[15:30] <StuartL> Personal hackspace?
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[15:30] <AndyEsser> got a couple of potential contracts lined up to do some cool tech/electronics stuff in the area
[15:30] <AndyEsser> and some Drone/UAB dev
[15:30] <AndyEsser> UAV*
[15:30] <gonzo_> the UAB sounded interesting
[15:30] <AndyEsser> Unmanned Aerial Balloon
[15:30] <AndyEsser> :P
[15:31] <gonzo_> yep, though we sort of have that covered
[15:31] <AndyEsser> yes
[15:31] <AndyEsser> and... building rockets
[15:31] <AndyEsser> eventually :P
[15:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03$$MancBalloonian_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=%24%24MancBalloonian_chase
[15:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03test 1_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=test%201_chase
[15:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03General Lee_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=General%20Lee_chase
[15:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MancBalls _chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MancBalls%20_chase
[15:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ff_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ff_chase
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[15:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MancBalloonian - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MancBalloonian
[15:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Looks like a right pileup of chase cars in Manchester then!
[16:01] Calthorpe (5be113e4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.225.19.228) joined #highaltitude.
[16:01] <Calthorpe> hello dose anyone know how 2 track habduino
[16:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> You need an aerial, a receiver, and dl-fldigi to decode and report the results
[16:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Have you seen the Wiki pages on tracking ?
[16:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
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[16:09] <pb0ahx> a a new junkyard in Manchester ?
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[16:10] <fsphil> lets hope calthorpe wasn't just about to launch something
[16:11] <daveake> hmm
[16:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 031005_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=1005_chase
[16:12] <StuartL> fsphil: Or just had, and realised his RX didn't work.
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[16:44] <mfa298> Isn't calthorpe the one that was about to launch directly into heathrow with no local receiver last week
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[16:55] <Andrew_M0NRD> anyone know anything about a school flight from Warminster School, Warminster, Wiltshire tomorrow? Seen a post on a forum from them asking for people to track?
[16:58] <StuartL> mfa298: Yes, that was him.
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[16:58] <StuartL> They had no receiver and hadn't tested the transmitter.
[16:59] <Andrew_M0NRD> ok, just it was cross posted from a CB facebook page to an amateur radio forum...
[17:00] <mfa298> Andrew_M0NRD: that was talkign about something else, I don;t think there's been any mention of a flight from warminster here yet ...
[17:02] <Andrew_M0NRD> quote "We will be transmitting a packet of data on 433MHz every 15 seconds. The data includes our ID Warminster School Balloon Challenge as well as all GPS and speed data Our plan is to launch Thursday 15th December (tomorrow! I know...sry) at approximately 11:30 am from Warminster School, Warminster, Wiltshire."
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[17:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah part of the Boscombe Down challenge
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[17:15] <Andrew_M0NRD> sure it will all go well ;-)
[17:25] <cm13g09> mfa298: I'm about to start testing those DS18B20s
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[17:50] <cm13g09> mfa298: Looks like they're behaving as DS18B20s
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[17:53] <mfa298> that's always a good start
[17:54] <cm13g09> yeah
[18:04] <cm13g09> mfa298: Now time to start designing a Standardised Telemetry Format
[18:04] <cm13g09> (don't panic guys
[18:04] <cm13g09> it's not for HAB-stuff!)
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[18:17] <StuartL> It would be nice to have a standardised format where an arbitrary number of sensors/attributes could be included in the report.
[18:18] <StuartL> e.g. You might include GPS every 20 seconds, temperature every five minutes, etc
[18:18] <PE2BZ> Anyone from UK able to listen to 398.425 AM ? Must be airtraffic but no common frequency
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[18:22] <Vaizki> let's go to 8bit telemetry and protobuffers
[18:24] <nick_> Vaizki: the cool kinds use flatbuffers now
[18:24] <nick_> s/kinds/kids
[18:27] <Vaizki> we are the cool grumpy old men
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[18:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> StuartL, there is nothing to stop you creating several different payload sentences and including them all in the Flight Doc, but it doesn't allow you to have a random selection during the flight itself.
[18:46] <daveake> Not sure what you mean there; you certainly can switch between sentence formats during flight.
[18:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> I meant payload not flight doc, as you can add several sentence formats.
[18:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> what he can't do is alter the sentence formats by having a defining field, for the parameter if that makes sense?
[18:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> just looking at it seems to work, but how does it handle two formats with same number and field formats, like float battery and float temperature, it wouldn't know which to use ?
[18:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> unless you can filter and numeric range maybe ?
[18:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> and/on
[18:53] <daveake> aiui the habitat parser checks each format in turn and chooses the first one that works
[18:54] <daveake> I've only tried it once, with 2 very different formats (different number of fields). It worked.
[18:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Makes sense, so provided each sentence had different numbers of fields it could handle it.....?
[18:54] <daveake> This was my flight that was supposed to land in the channel; it had a shorter sentence for "float mode" :)
[18:55] <daveake> yes
[18:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Can the filters handle numeric field ranges ? Not sure where that is documented.
[18:56] <daveake> probably though you could have the same number of fields, and add a filter that passes/fails the sentence based on a "mode" field for example.
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/12/14/165220/amazon-delivered-its-first-customer-package-by-drone
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> And in the UK too
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> The test was done with the approval of Britain's Civil Aviation Authority, which Amazon says plans to allow it to deliver to rural areas once it has amassed sufficient safety data
[18:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yes much the same approach, must have a delve into the docs.
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> 'There will be no surcharge for 30-minute drone delivery for these customers, the company said.
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[19:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F1TKE-12 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F1TKE-12
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[19:45] <Vaizki> SoeedEvil: no surcharge for 2 customers.. wow :)
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Doing some research, presumably in populous areas, amazon logistics is doing 150/day.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> per person.
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting stuff, and assuming the whole operation costs them twice the minimum wage for an 8 hour shift, that's around a pound per delivery.
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> If you can get the same rate out of a drone, a thousand pound drone can pay off if you lose one a week or so.
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[20:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GKCPWS2 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GKCPWS2
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[20:14] <Aernout> hi, I want get a flight approval for next weekend
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[20:16] <Aernout> What is the IRC channel for the flight approval?
[20:16] <daveake> #habhub
[20:16] <daveake> post the flight doc id there
[20:17] <Aernout> thanks
[20:17] <dStruct> edmoore: they attempted it but had a complication with one of the Pegasus on-board computers, I'm not sure if they'll be able to schedule the range tomorrow at the same time or not
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[20:23] <Aernout> Can I get some advice on an lora tracker? I made the LoRaArduinoSerial with an pro mini arduino (from Dave), working fine. I want to build a balloon tracker with rfm98 and arduino pro mini. Does anyone of you have an arduino code, I can use as starting point?
[20:25] <daveake> My flextrack code is on github
[20:26] <Aernout> Thanks, I saw that on your github. I will give it a try.
[20:47] <edmoore> dStruct: ok thanks
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[21:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ5RZP-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ5RZP-11
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[00:00] --- Thu Dec 15 2016