highaltitude.log.20161205

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[02:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03E23STK-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=E23STK-11
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[06:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-3 after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-3
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[08:03] <SA6BSS-Mike> lets see if I can get any string from ubseds today as its comming down from the noth, someware between SW Sweden and Denmark
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[09:30] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-2 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-2
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[10:01] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0316 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[11:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[11:57] <SA6BSS-Mike> at a solar angle at at best 9deg today it looks like it did not start up at all
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> was the panel horizontal?
[12:00] <richardeoin> SA6BSS-Mike: okay, thanks for listening
[12:01] <richardeoin> it needs >18 deg for gps lock, not sure about just transmitting a callsign
[12:01] <SA6BSS-Mike> np :)
[12:01] <richardeoin> probably > 10deg anyhow
[12:01] <richardeoin> SpeedEvil: yes
[12:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> talking of solar panales.... if I have 4 panels connected in series two is in the sun
[12:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> how well will the other two thats in shadow pass the amp to the circuit?
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> SA6BSS-Mike: they are diodes basically. Forward biased by a current generator proportional to the light.
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> In short - not at all.
[12:03] <SA6BSS-Mike> ahh ok
[12:03] <gonzo_> the panels usually have bypass and blocking diodes
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> the shaded cells will completely absorb the voltage of the lit ones
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> (if more than the current the shaded cells can provide is drawn)
[12:03] <gonzo_> I have seen some mention od panels with diodes within the chains, but never seen an actual panel with them
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: it's common in large (>>10 cell) panels.
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> This is because the cells have a reverse voltage of about 10V tops - and if you exceed this, you can get hot-spotting on one tiny portion of the cell, shorting it.
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> If one or a few cells in a panel are shaded
[12:05] <gonzo_> only played with 36V panels, all had bypass.block diodes, only across the whle panel though
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: did you inspect inside the junction block?
[12:05] <gonzo_> yep
[12:05] <gonzo_> two big fat diodes
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> Odd - mine had extra - the cells certainly can't stand off 35V if shaded.
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> Or at least most can't
[12:07] <gonzo_> the installer i goy bthem off, do a 'flash test'. Where they forward bias the panels and check them with a thermal cam, for hotsopts. And reject any they find
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> That doesn't help
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> The issue is the panel is providing (say) 36V@6A, in a string of panels.
[12:08] <gonzo_> not sure if they have diodes enmbedded in the chains. Must look at the datasheet
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> If one cell is shaded, then it gets reverse biased and starts to conduct at -10V or so.
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> So, if the load draws 6A@26V (as it will in most cases of a string) - you now have 60W across that reverse biased cell
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> Which heats it - and because it's a large area, heats one bit preferentially which heats up more, and eventually goes into thermal runaway
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[12:11] <gonzo_> if a cell is reverse biased, surely it will be high z so no current
[12:11] <gonzo_> just the breakdown V to worry about
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> Nope. It's in a string.
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> The breakdown voltage is 10V, so if there is 36V across the panel, and it drops to 26+10V (of the shaged cell) and the load draws current, you've got current flowing through the reverse biased conducting cell
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> (if the external voltage drops to)
[12:16] <JackT> Good afternoon all! I thought you might like to have a look at one of the photos the Oundle School High Alt Soc took yesterday. Incredible visibility from the Dutch coast to the Isle of Wight. Taken just above Cambridge (Milton)
[12:16] <JackT> https://twitter.com/_OSHAS/status/805538412912578564
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: applying forward current and IR monitoring will tell you about cracked cells, and shorted cells, so it's a great practice.
[12:19] <edmoore> JackT: that's a great photo
[12:20] <edmoore> we have taken a few with that view
[12:20] <edmoore> can you see the millenium dome on the full-size version?
[12:20] <JackT> Thanks! Im pretty chuffed the weather was great
[12:20] <JackT> Ill have a look now
[12:23] <JackT> edmoore: You wouldnt be able to tell if you weren't specifically looking for it but it's there (literally a few pixels) !
[12:28] <edmoore> yep!
[12:28] <edmoore> fun huh
[12:29] <AndyEsser> JackT: great photo]
[12:32] <JackT> Thanks Andy! Yes it was a ton of fun. It was our second launch and we were carrying some experiments made by yr 9&10s
[12:33] <JackT> We had a ton of interest from teachers/important people so we might be able to launch again early next year
[12:34] <nick_> JackT: what experiments did they do?
[12:40] <JackT> They had an arduino data logger taking pressure/humidity/temp/GPS and they are going to compare the results with the standard atmospheric model. Should get some interesting graphs. They also put some different seeds on the payload to try and grow upon retrieval. I placed 3 different strains of bacteria on the payload and was going to compare their growth to samples left on the ground to see the effects of near space travel on b
[12:41] <JackT> nick: but unfortunately the biology petri dishes got ripped off the payload by the parachute cord.
[12:42] <nick_> OK
[12:42] <JackT> And we also tested out the Doongara thermal cut down device for chris hillcox
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[12:44] <nick_> It's great to get young kinds playing with actual data.
[12:47] <JackT> I agree! I've been running HAB club with the help of a friend for them and they are enjoying it (as am I)
[12:48] <JackT> Well I'm actually in yr 13 so i'm learning as I go with the data handling but it's working so far.
[12:49] <nick_> How do you handle data?
[12:50] <edmoore> that cutdown is pricey for what it is
[12:55] <JackT> nick: The data logger saves raw data onto an SD card and then Its decrypted back at school into an excel data sheet. The tricky thing i've found is the fact that so much data is collected.
[12:55] <AndyEsser> JackT: this may be the only time I recommend Python :)
[12:55] <AndyEsser> and the pyplotlib stuff :)
[12:55] <nick_> JackT: yeah, getting kids to acutally write code to analyse data is neat.
[12:56] <nick_> Obviously there's a different learning curve to just using excell.
[12:56] <nick_> But moving away from spreadsheets takes you half way to being a real scientist.
[12:58] <nick_> Python's matplotlib is very good and not so hard to learn.
[12:58] <JackT> The only language I am good with (aka can bodge together working scripts) is C/++ so I think I might have to start learning python if its the way to go in terms of big data. I might ask around the computing dept and see if they can help
[12:59] <nick_> I don't think there are any good data analysis packages for C++ (although I've used at least one for a decade)
[12:59] <AndyEsser> JackT: I'm generally not a big fan of Python, however it is a great tool for analysing and plotting large amounts of numerical data
[12:59] <AndyEsser> this channel got my into it for analysing data
[12:59] <AndyEsser> iPyton Notebook is a great tool as well
[12:59] <AndyEsser> unless edmoore has got a new great tool to use?
[13:00] <nick_> There's a half decent effort to make a good data analysis package for Go.
[13:00] <nick_> In a few years I'll suggest that.
[13:00] <JackT> nick_: "The difference between screwing around and science is writing it down."
[13:00] <nick_> Hmm, not quite.
[13:00] <AndyEsser> nick_: gah!
[13:01] <nick_> But writing things down is very useful.
[13:01] <AndyEsser> I've had 4 days off from Go
[13:01] <nick_> I spend half my time in our teaching lab telling people to write more.
[13:01] <nick_> But it's a hard sell since they'll never look at the experiment again once they finish it.
[13:02] <JackT> thanks for the help everyone ill look into python and pyplotlib and ipyton Notebook !
[13:02] <AndyEsser> just pop back and ask questions if you have any :)
[13:02] <JackT> Ok thanks I probably will
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[13:03] Action: nick_ wonders if he would have enjoyed statistics classes in school if a computer could have been used.
[13:03] <AndyEsser> nick_: I had Stats at A-Level
[13:03] <AndyEsser> but now regret not embracing it more
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[13:03] <AndyEsser> think I'm in a similar boat
[13:03] <nick_> I did only S1
[13:03] <nick_> And hated it.
[13:03] <AndyEsser> if we'd been taught more "practical" stats - rather than just theory etc I'd likely have enjoyed it more
[13:03] <nick_> Mostly because of the exercises drawing various plots by hand from data tables.
[13:03] <AndyEsser> I bought my M1, M2 and C1, C2, C3 and C4 books earlier in the year
[13:04] <AndyEsser> trying to get my maths back up to scratch
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[13:04] <nick_> Ah, you must be a bit younger than me.
[13:04] <nick_> I was the last year before "core" was introduced.
[13:04] <AndyEsser> 29
[13:04] <AndyEsser> yea, it was Pure back then?
[13:05] <nick_> Yeah
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[13:05] <AndyEsser> I changed schools between GCSE and 6th form
[13:05] <nick_> P1-3 turned into C1-4
[13:05] <AndyEsser> I think if I'd stayed at the other school, it was still the "Pure" style curriciulum
[13:05] <AndyEsser> err... spelling
[13:05] <nick_> I still think those books were pretty good for learning a decent chunks of maths.
[13:06] <AndyEsser> Problem with the C1/C2 stuff
[13:06] <AndyEsser> I'm trying to read them and like "OMG I know this stuff!"
[13:06] <AndyEsser> but if I skip ahead to the bits I know I'm lacking in, I'll miss something
[13:06] <nick_> I miss being able to solve differential equations.
[13:07] <nick_> Although mostly I forgot how to do all the tricks since I've never needed to do any real maths since graduating from my first degree.
[13:07] <AndyEsser> ha
[13:07] <AndyEsser> how many degrees do you have?
[13:07] <nick_> I have two real ones and a fake one.
[13:07] <AndyEsser> fake one being PhD?
[13:07] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:07] <nick_> My DPhil didn't require much more than division and a tiny bit of stats.
[13:08] <nick_> I have a ~honorary degree.
[13:08] <nick_> MA
[13:08] <AndyEsser> http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/5/5e/Dr._Riviera.png/revision/latest?cb=20120509073411
[13:08] <AndyEsser> I'm hoping that one day I may do enough high profile good in the world, that a Uni might give me an Honorary Degree :P
[13:08] <AndyEsser> only way I'm getting a degree
[13:09] <nick_> In the good old days you could get a PhD for doing research like work in the real world.
[13:09] <AndyEsser> I did toy with doing a Maths OU BSc but - I really don't have the time to commit to that
[13:10] <nick_> But these days I don't think it works so well.
[13:10] <AndyEsser> shall just continue being the Howard Wolowitz to the Leonards and Sheldon's in here :P
[13:10] <nick_> Even I know some people who did PhDs based at a company in association with a uni, and they're basically worthless.
[13:10] <AndyEsser> guy at my last company had a PhD in Optics
[13:10] <nick_> Because they miss the point of a PhD.
[13:11] <AndyEsser> he said in a meeting "Only 2 kinds of people get PhDs, those that want to do actual research - and those that just want to show off and put Dr. in front of their names"
[13:11] <AndyEsser> he firmly admitted he was in the latter :P
[13:11] <nick_> In most research groups in industry you can get a research project that would take a whole PhD in a couple of months.
[13:11] <AndyEsser> but then I'd be... Dr. Esser... Dresser...
[13:11] <daey> Dr. E. -> Dre -> Dr. Dr.
[13:11] <daey> e
[13:12] <nick_> Basically because in most companies you have people to do a bunch of the work for you.
[13:12] <nick_> Which kinda misses the point in understanding all the experiments you do.
[13:17] <SpeedEvil> You do not gain any understanding in performing the hundredth identical thing in a row.
[13:17] <SpeedEvil> I'm reminded of Twiv - this week in virology - the host spent his entire Phd sequencing the genome of polio.
[13:18] <nick_> SpeedEvil: yeah
[13:18] <nick_> But you also don't understand an experiment if you have someone else do it and report on the results for you.
[13:18] <SpeedEvil> TWIV is excellent BTW - discussion of topics around viruses with experts, and yet moderately accessible.
[13:18] <SpeedEvil> True.
[13:19] <nick_> Which is what people in my wife's company do.
[13:19] <nick_> They develop some material
[13:19] <nick_> Send samples to their analytical department, get a bunch of results back and claim it's science.
[13:19] <nick_> Well, they get reports back, not results.
[13:20] <nick_> Then they'll write up a long thesis with a few iterations of this and a crappy uni will give them a PhD.
[13:21] <nick_> And if you compare that to what a normal PhD student does then at first glance it looks pretty similar.
[13:21] Action: SpeedEvil is currently being annoyed by psych PhDs.
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[13:21] <nick_> But in reality if it's up to you do to all the analytical techniques then you think about which ones are really useful.
[13:21] <SpeedEvil> Which are 'we observed this thing' ... 'this proves that'.
[13:22] <nick_> Whereas if someone else is doing the work you give it to all of them and see what they claim is intersting.
[13:22] <SpeedEvil> Where ... is never adequately and scientifically proved.
[13:22] <nick_> Yeah
[13:22] <Vaizki> TWIV@home: I got https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinthitis
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-418/
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> Very few podcasts hit the 400s.
[13:23] <Vaizki> Only one day in hospital and now at home
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[13:24] <nick_> My mother did a psychology degree as a mature student, so when I was younger I'd talk about it with her.
[13:24] <nick_> And it was all "this is amazing, they showed that X think Y"
[13:25] <nick_> Especially with child development stuff.
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> Especially annoying to me as they're insisting (with misuse of statistics) that my disease is 'disorderd thinking' and 'illness perpetuating beliefs'.
[13:26] <nick_> Some baby did something or other in a test so let's assume all babies think/understand/whatever something related.
[13:26] <SpeedEvil> With fun stuff like 'people think about their illness more than healthy controls thing about illness' -> 'the beliefs must be perpetuating illness'
[13:27] <nick_> If you can do experiments that hand wavy then you can safely assume all the published papers are wrong.
[13:28] <nick_> (If you require rigourous experiments then you should only assume most are wrong)
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> http://www.virology.ws/2011/04/20/twim-5-mercury-methylating-desulfovibrio-and-antimicrobial-nanoparticles/ - sort of on topic - bacteria releasing mercury from silt into the air.
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[13:34] <Laurenceb_> http://prefrontal.org/files/posters/Bennett-Salmon-2009.pdf
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that's good
[13:35] <russss> hah
[13:36] <nick_> Laurenceb_: yeah
[13:36] <nick_> You only need to look at a few variables to ensure a 1-2 sigma significance on one of them.
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4948312/ too
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> Cluster failure: Why fMRI inferences for spatial extent have inflated false-positive rates
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> 'In theory, we should find 5% false positives (for a significance threshold of 5%), but instead we found that the most common software packages for fMRI analysis (SPM, FSL, AFNI) can result in false-positive rates of up to 70%.
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[13:38] <SpeedEvil> Statistics is hard.
[13:40] <nick_> I don't really blame statistics for these problems, but the academic publishing model.
[13:40] <nick_> If you selected papers for publication before knowing the results it'd solve a lot of the issue.
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> The FMRI issue is precisely statistics are hard - and people were offloading them to programs without deep understanding of the algorithm used, but assuming it was correct.
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> Negative reporting needs to be done.
[13:44] <nick_> Yeah, you need to change the defition of "interesting"
[13:44] <nick_> From "spurious result" to "good experiment"
[13:48] Action: SpeedEvil needs to draw out a teeny lightweight LASER gimbal for balloons.
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[15:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ER1TUM/AM after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ER1TUM%2FAM
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[17:09] <tweetBot> @AmsatUK: Sandringham School plans @Raspberry_Pi 434 MHz balloon flight for Science Week #SSDV #amsat #hamradio #hamr #ukhas& https://t.co/f9OdAL1AJe
[17:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SSTAR0109 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SSTAR0109
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[17:54] <JackT> Good afternoon all, I was wondering if there was anything you can do to prevent early balloon failure during a flight?
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[17:58] <craag> Don't use a pawan, treat the balloon carefully before launch (no excessive handling / pinching / stretching, use latex/vinyl gloves to avoid skin oil contact), don't use a pawan :)
[18:00] <JackT> Would launching on a cold winters day have any effect since it is going up to cold anyway?
[18:00] <craag> No effect
[18:01] <craag> hot summer days often give higher altitudes due to lower pressure in the upper atmosphere, but that's no fault of the balloon
[18:01] <craag> hmm, sometimes, rather than often
[18:02] <JackT> Ok thanks for the help
[18:03] <AndyEsser> Don't ues a Pawan
[18:03] <AndyEsser> Use Hwoyee
[18:03] <mfa298> along with don't use a pawan, buy your balloon from a trusted source.
[18:03] <craag> ^^ ebay balloons are often treated/packed roughly
[18:03] <mfa298> the likes of eBay sellers you have less idea of how old the balloons might be or how they've been looked after
[18:05] <AndyEsser> JackT: get them from Random Engineering - Steve (RocketBoy) knows his HAB and quite accurately tracks the age of the balloons and things
[18:06] <AndyEsser> speaking of
[18:06] <AndyEsser> should really put an order in
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[18:09] <AndyEsser> Toodlepip....
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[18:45] <PE2BZ> !track usbseds18
[18:45] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Here you go - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=usbseds18
[18:45] <daveake> Someone should mention about avoiding Pawan :p
[18:46] <PE2BZ> I guess something should be seriously wrong with Pawan....
[18:46] <PE2BZ> The students from Winterswijk will redo their exam flight before Christmass and this time without alu foil tape :-)
[18:47] <PE2BZ> !whereis USBSEDS18
[18:47] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: I haven't got a clue
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[23:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03M10WX-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M10WX-11
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[00:00] --- Tue Dec 6 2016