highaltitude.log.20161114

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[07:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRF-6 after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRF-6
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[08:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[09:59] <AndyEsser> morning all
[09:59] <AndyEsser> long time no sprechen
[10:10] <gonzo_> morning
[10:10] <gonzo_> you been away?
[10:14] <fsphil> bonjour
[10:23] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: not really, just been busy
[10:23] <AndyEsser> had Friday off for my birthday
[10:23] <AndyEsser> then busy all weekend with flying and seeing the gf etc
[10:24] <fsphil> late happy birthday
[10:25] <AndyEsser> ta
[10:27] <AndyEsser> instructor was telling me yesterday (after I'd talked about maybe being an aid pilot for 3 months) that he's planning a sponsored flight from Hawarden to Thailand next year over a month
[10:27] <AndyEsser> and wants a co-pilot :)
[10:27] <fsphil> sweeet
[10:27] <AndyEsser> which would be so cool
[10:28] <AndyEsser> and help to massively rack up hours :)
[10:28] <fsphil> stick a gopro in the front, make a timelapse !
[10:28] <AndyEsser> almost certainly would :)
[10:29] <mfa298> work up to your full license and stick an aprs tracker in as well then we can track your progress on habhub
[10:29] <fsphil> you should see some nice storms over there too
[10:30] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I keep meaning to stick a tracker in my bag with me when I go for my lessons
[10:31] <AndyEsser> fsphil: yea, would be a great way to experience all manner of different weather conditions and airports/airfields etc
[10:32] <AndyEsser> just shy of 10 hours now
[10:32] <AndyEsser> almost 1/4 of the way through :)
[10:33] <edmoore> you could also code for a tracker during the downtime
[10:33] <gonzo_> I noted that you got the order of priorities right there [<AndyEsser> then busy all weekend with flying and seeing the gf etc]
[10:34] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: of course :)
[10:34] <AndyEsser> it'll be even worse, I have 2 hours booked Saturday + Sunday every remaining weekend this onth
[10:34] <AndyEsser> so will just spend all day at the flight school
[10:34] <AndyEsser> edmoore: code the tracker whilst airborne ;)
[10:34] <edmoore> yes
[10:35] <AndyEsser> I do need to find out how receptive the school would be to me mounting an antenna on plane...
[10:35] <AndyEsser> HabPlane with a 434 MHz antenna on top and bottom :)
[10:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ5AM-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ5AM-11
[10:42] <edmoore> i believe it is part of some grade of license
[10:42] <edmoore> the ability to mount additional hardware to external points of your aeroplane
[10:44] <gonzo_> just pop the tracker in a window
[10:45] <AndyEsser> edmoore: seems to require a Licensed Aircraft Engineer to approve it on a case by case basis
[10:45] <AndyEsser> (reading info about mounting cameras on planes)
[10:45] <mfa298> AndyEsser: I think matb has tried some trackers (probably #ukhasnet rather than rtty/lora) in a plane so might have some ideas.
[10:45] <AndyEsser> thankfully we have such engineers at the airfield
[10:45] <AndyEsser> it's also a qualification I'm looking at getting - to aid the flight school in doing the 50 hour maintenance of the aircraft
[10:45] <AndyEsser> mfa298: ta
[10:46] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I was actually thinking more for tracking payloads, rather than the plane being tracked :)
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[10:51] <fsphil> flying igate
[10:51] <gonzo_> I strated looking at the quals for GA a/c work on the electrical/comms/nav side
[10:51] <gonzo_> looks all very adhoc
[10:52] <gonzo_> basically you need to have done some form of apprenticeship or similar with an existing co. But there seemed to be no spec or approval for that training or the co giving it
[10:53] <gonzo_> and having seen some of the radio installs....
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[10:54] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: yea - it's more than I originally expected
[10:54] <AndyEsser> there's two routes - get your LEA Part 66 via self study and exams
[10:54] <AndyEsser> then 5 years with of experience before getting a license
[10:54] <AndyEsser> or a 3 year apprenticeship
[10:54] <AndyEsser> and you specialise either Avionics or Mechanical
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[11:00] <gonzo_> it was a long time ago that I enquired. But I was only looking at GA a/c, rather than anything commercial
[11:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
[11:03] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: yea, I imagine everything I'm seeing is commercial
[11:03] <gonzo_> but it was the case that there was plenty of work avail at little airfields, if you didn't mind travelling a bit.
[11:03] <AndyEsser> for the sake of signing off a 50 hour maintenance check, it surely can't require 5 years experience etc
[11:03] <gonzo_> whenever there was an issue, it would be phone numbers passed around and someone who knows of a bloke
[11:04] <gonzo_> poss if it's a
[11:04] <gonzo_> oop[s
[11:08] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: any airfields near you?
[11:11] <gonzo_> the main airport at Hurn. Compton Abbas airfield is probably nearest (flew from there a few months ago)
[11:12] <gonzo_> There are also a few gliding clubs further to the north
[11:14] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: good lord landing fees are expensive at Bournemouth
[11:14] <AndyEsser> although... for an airport its size, not too bad
[11:14] <AndyEsser> just more than Hawarden ;)
[11:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RPF-N1 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-N1
[11:40] <gonzo_> compton is a nice little airfiled. Only a f=grass strip, but a good restaraunt
[11:41] <gonzo_> the food there is what keeps the place running. It's a popular trip, even if you are not a pilot
[11:42] <gonzo_> we used to go there with the bike club, on a summer eve
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[11:47] <gonzo_> the worst fees at hurne is (was, when i was last there) when you just miss the dusk closing on a sunday.
[11:47] <gonzo_> they would bill you an hour of keeping ATC open
[11:54] <AndyEsser> ouch
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[11:59] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I'm going to make a trip to the ATC tower this weekend when I'm on the airfield
[11:59] <AndyEsser> see how they do things
[11:59] <AndyEsser> and also meet the worlds most patient controller
[11:59] <AndyEsser> I think us students keep him on his toes
[12:16] <fsphil> that the one that got your made up runway? :)
[12:16] <AndyEsser> yep
[12:16] <AndyEsser> and had to deal with me wanting to comply with his request, and my instructor telling me to do something else yesterday
[12:17] <fsphil> anything's a runway if you're in enough need
[12:17] <AndyEsser> turns out there's a difference between "Orbit immediately" and "Orbit at the end of the downwind leg"
[12:17] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I was flying 300ft above the canal on Saturday :)
[12:17] <SIbot> In real units: 300 ft = 91 m
[12:17] <AndyEsser> wouldn't want to land on that
[12:18] <fsphil> hah, no. well, flying boats are cool too :)
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[12:23] <AndyEsser> fsphil: very true
[12:23] <AndyEsser> when designed to be :P
[12:24] <jakeio> Anyone know anything about SPI modes?
[12:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03W3EAX-12 after 0321 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W3EAX-12
[12:25] <jakeio> More specifically, which mode the LoRa radios run at?
[12:25] <jakeio> !whereis UBSEDS18
[12:25] <SpacenearUS> 03jakeio: 03UBSEDS18 was over 03North Pacific Ocean 10(41.81333,148.52486) at 0312244 meters about 035 days ago
[12:26] <daveake> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Peripheral_Interface_Bus describes the modes
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[12:28] <daveake> And most devices, including the lora chips, are mode 0
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[12:30] <jakeio> Thanks daveake, I was looking at that but datasheet only lists CPOL and CPHA, can't find Clock Edge.
[12:30] <jakeio> Oh, it's 1 isn't it...
[12:34] <jakeio> Or, does it not matter.
[12:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03F1TKE-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F1TKE-11
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[12:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ER1TUM/AM after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ER1TUM%2FAM
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[13:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KB1LOL-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KB1LOL-11
[13:59] <fsphil> lol
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[14:21] <Ian_> Belated Birthday greetings AndyEsser.
[14:23] <AndyEsser> ta Ian_
[14:24] <fsphil> hope there was cake
[14:24] <AndyEsser> there was not
[14:24] <AndyEsser> but there was a blob of Ice Cream with a flare type thing in it at the Chinese with my brother and his wife on Saturday
[14:24] <AndyEsser> and all the waitresses stood around singing happy birthday
[14:24] <AndyEsser> ultra cringey...
[14:24] <fsphil> ooch
[14:26] <AndyEsser> I got rocket socks though :)
[14:26] <Ian_> Much prefer the waitresses personally . . .
[14:29] <gonzo_> are you rtrying to take my place as the chan's, dirty old man?
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[15:03] <Ian_> Not one bit of it gonzo, but given enough young Chinese waitresses, there are bound to be a few really cute ones. Appreciation is the watchword.
[15:04] <Ian_> With not a little wishful thinking perhaps! ;)
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[15:56] <hyde00001> So... (1) thanks to all for all the Cambridge restaurant advice the other day - splendid...
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[15:58] <hyde00001> (2) dumb question about antenna... If I want my HAB payload to use both RTTY and LoRa, I assume I need separate radiating elements (17cm bit of wire...) for each...
[15:59] <hyde00001> But can I use a common ground plane (seeing as surely the grounds on the transmitters are connected anyway...)
[16:00] <hyde00001> And what parameters (of any) do I need to consider regarding spacing of the radiating elements?
[16:00] <gonzo_> you probably want to separate the radiating elements a bit. Otherwise they will couple into each other RF wise and possibly you will waster your tx power
[16:00] <gonzo_> and get odd radiation pattern
[16:01] <gonzo_> as far away as possible, given the size of a payload
[16:02] <gonzo_> having them orthononal would be great, to reduce coupling, but then you will get spin fading on e one/both
[16:02] <hyde00001> and whilst I'm asking really stupid qurestions why can't I just connect both transmitters to the same radiating element (and maybe time the transmissions so avoid both using it at the same tume)
[16:03] <gonzo_> not easilly, as that will mess up the impeadence matching and also you will have each TX sending power into the other TX
[16:03] <AndyEsser> because you'll pump 100% of the RF output from one transmitter, into the other
[16:03] <AndyEsser> it's just far easier to have separate elements for each
[16:04] <hyde00001> presumably putting a diode in to stop the RF going "the wrong way" is a another silly idea...?
[16:05] <gonzo_> putting the elements ad far away as is practical. That should be enough
[16:05] <gonzo_> yes very silly idea. RF is alternating current, so you will make a mess of it
[16:05] <gonzo_> 2 eleemnt is best
[16:05] <hyde00001> and the ground plane? They each need their own one or they can share?
[16:06] <gonzo_> share is ok
[16:06] <hyde00001> slaps head re diode...
[16:06] <gonzo_> I just use bits of wire for the GP, no need for it to be a solid(heavy) load of metalic tape etc
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[16:07] <gonzo_> 4x quater wave bits of cat5 strands, eminating out from near the dreven element feed point is fine
[16:07] <gonzo_> light and easy
[16:08] <hyde00001> Anyone know of empirical data / sums that help to determine "best" position?
[16:09] <hyde00001> gonzo - excellent suggestion
[16:10] <hyde00001> I was following along with this from Steve Randall... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xemKyV1H6Xs
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[16:11] <hyde00001> so in terms of the ground plane then, would you still make a ground plane for each, but not concern yourself if they were electrically coupled?
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[16:23] <Ian_> The diode would actually cause lots of harmonics from an otherwise good signal. Definite no no.
[16:28] <adamgreig> you can buy RF switches that would let you connect two things to the same antenna
[16:28] <adamgreig> they are not particularly large or expensive or whatever
[16:28] <adamgreig> but it's almost surely easier to just make two antennas for this sort of thing
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[16:37] <hyde00001> splendid advice all round.. still worried re spacing though - current HAB payload box a ~20cm cube. with one antenna it seemed logical to put radiating element in centre of downward face - with two can only realistically separate by ~10cm without putting them right on the edge - which also seems a bad plan...
[16:39] <hyde00001> I've seen pictures of a daveake payload with (i suspect ) 868 antenna sticking out the top...But he noted reception was compromised by this approach..
[16:39] <daveake> That was 868 on the bottom, but yes whichever antenna you put on the top is going to have compromised reception
[16:39] <adamgreig> antennas at the two edges doesn't seem too bad
[16:40] <daveake> In my case I wanted the 868 to work well but wasn't bothered so much about the 434 on top
[16:41] <daveake> If you want both to work reasonably well then put them both on the bottom, as far away from each other as you can
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[16:52] <hyde00001> daveake - excellent. Cheers
[16:52] <Upu> ssdv.habhub.org
[16:53] <fsphil> high altitude cat
[16:53] <daveake> he's getting some exposure
[16:53] <hyde00001> HAB Cat
[16:53] <hyde00001> to the tune of "Top Cat"
[16:54] <daveake> He's testing my gphoto2/pits code :)
[16:55] <daveake> I'll fly that when they weather's better. So, June probably :/
[16:55] <LazyLeopard> Weather certainly a bit garbage at the moment...
[16:59] <Ian_> Another option is to have a balsa, or other boom diagonally across the bottom of the package, as long as you felt comfortable with. Certainly 12" to 18" between downward facing antennas mounted near the ends.
[17:00] <Ian_> It would present a potential tangle zone however, so the experts will maybe like to advise about the lack of wisdom of this approach.
[17:00] <Ian_> Also ensure that they can't stab some unsuspecting Harold looking up in the air at the wrong moment!
[17:01] <hyde00001> Given my "maker" skills this would also be very probe to falling off... But its still a good suggestion...
[17:02] <Ian_> Possibly still some rotational shift in signal strength.
[17:02] <daveake> Yeah, I did that https://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/IMG_0554-e1470405013213-500x667.jpg
[17:02] <hyde00001> prone...
[17:02] <Ian_> Ever heard of Gaffa Tape . . . and string!
[17:02] <Ian_> :)
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[17:04] <hyde00001> Gaffa Tape Usage Guide https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8160/7214525854_733237dd83_z.jpg
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[17:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03jyoti _chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=jyoti%20_chase
[17:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03i10 up14ft456_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=i10%20up14ft456_chase
[17:17] <SIbot> In real units: 14 ft = 4.27 m
[17:17] <daveake> lol
[17:18] <daveake> bot-wars
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[17:55] Nick change: israelzuniga_ -> israelzuniga
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[17:59] <PE2BZ> !flights
[17:59] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03Barc 10(74f3), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
[17:59] <PE2BZ> !whereis Barc
[17:59] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: I haven't got a clue
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[18:02] <Ian_> BARC flight is 15 November - Tuesday
[18:02] <Ian_> Brusselsesteenweg 1000 - 1400
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[19:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03F1TKE-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F1TKE-12
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[19:50] Nick change: Kryczek_ -> Kryczek
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[20:08] <beau_> hi
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[20:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JHNSCH_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JHNSCH_chase
[20:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NimRai_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NimRai_chase
[20:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-18 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-18
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[21:07] <fsphil> privacy cat http://ssdv.habhub.org/images/2016-11-14--16-22-32-NIKON-B501.jpeg
[21:10] <LazyLeopard> Sheesh! Where's a cat to get some peace! ;)
[21:11] <fsphil> cats eyewitness
[21:16] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 0319 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[21:22] <beau_> I like how the only balloon tracker outside of europe/oceania is in my city
[21:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> Rochester US ?
[21:24] <beau_> yupppp
[21:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> :)
[21:24] <beau_> we are launching this saturday
[21:24] <beau_> so excited
[21:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> lots of fun ahead!!
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[21:26] <beau_> we made a live graph thing and oreintation display for a hab, just need to scramble to get the radio up and running this week
[21:31] <beau_> http://hab-web-client-hab-telemetry-server.app.csh.rit.edu/
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[21:39] <fsphil> down with short urls ;)
[21:40] <fsphil> blank screen apart from the orange bar at the top?
[21:41] <beau_> just a tmp url
[21:41] <beau_> uhhh it shouldn't be blank
[21:41] <beau_> do you have javascript turned off?
[21:41] <fsphil> no
[21:41] <beau_> oh my friend turned off the server, thats cool
[21:45] <LazyLeopard> Oops...
[22:01] <beau_> should be running now
[22:07] <beau_> any of you guys into writing embedded flight software?
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[22:28] <gonzo_> probably all of us
[22:29] <beau_> I've just been using an arduino, would an RTOS be of any use?
[22:31] <gonzo_> I don't use os's, so can't comment
[22:31] <gonzo_> probably depends what you are trying to do
[22:32] <gonzo_> if it's a simple tracker, taking gps strings and outputting telrmetry, I can;'t see much need for an os. It's just more complication to make mistakes on
[22:36] <beau_> im trying to figure out the best way to have a data stream coming down via radio, and then have a 2 way comms with it so we can geofence it by ground command
[22:41] <mfa298> for an arduino/avr an rtos is probably overkill (and may not even exist)
[22:41] <beau_> i mean rtoses run on 8kb 16MHz msp430s
[22:42] <mfa298> just learn to use interrupts (this may mean using less of the arduino stuff and writing more native avr stuff)
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[22:52] <gonzo_> if you are having to do extra processing to run the overhead of an os, is extra battery req, so extra weight
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[23:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[00:00] --- Tue Nov 15 2016