highaltitude.log.20161020

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[04:44] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[05:14] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-5 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-5
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[06:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
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[06:35] <AndyEsser> morning
[06:35] <AndyEsser> So I'm invariably going to be asked tomorrow why I use a Chinese outsourcing company for PCB fab
[06:35] <AndyEsser> What's the equipment required to do that "in house", and if there were a service based in the UK, with comparable pricing to say dirtypcb - would you guys use it?
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[07:00] <Upu> do you mean making the PCB's or assembling them AndyEsser ?
[07:03] <AndyEsser> making the PCBs
[07:03] <AndyEsser> I presume it's not your standard bubble etch tanks :P
[07:03] <fsphil> you'd need a fair bit of gear
[07:04] <fsphil> the bits to do the silk screen, solder mask, router, something to drill the holes
[07:04] <AndyEsser> fsphil: Yep - I guessed - I just want to prepared if they ask the question, and I say "It'd cost £100,000 for equipment" etc
[07:05] <Upu> Lots for the kit
[07:06] <Upu> and in short China is 1/2 the price of the Euro places
[07:06] <Upu> however....
[07:06] <Upu> with the pound
[07:06] <Upu> and if you do panels and volume
[07:06] <Upu> its way way closer than it was
[07:06] <Upu> I use https://www.multi-circuit-boards.eu/index.html
[07:06] <Upu> Use hackvana for prototyping and stuff
[07:07] <AndyEsser> ta
[07:07] <Upu> Sec I'll get you some actual numbers
[07:07] <AndyEsser> cheers Upu
[07:07] <AndyEsser> not sure how much better saying I use an EU based company would be ;)
[07:08] <AndyEsser> given how Wales voted in the referendum
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[07:15] <Upu> ok
[07:16] <Upu> so Habduino panels which have 4 boards on each. 10 panels from China were $101.00 (ROSH+Blue) same from Multi was ¬164.60 (ENIG+Green)
[07:17] <Upu> Similar turn around time
[07:18] <Upu> but the Multi boards are better quality, I've had issues with reworking boards from China
[07:20] <Upu> Brexxit has pushed my cost prices up significantly
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[07:35] <AndyEsser> Upu: :*
[07:35] <AndyEsser> :( * even
[07:35] <edmoore> i actively do go for eu/uk PCBs
[07:35] <edmoore> and actively don't go to china
[07:36] <edmoore> they get enough money
[07:36] <Upu> I would say if you're hobbying it up then China
[07:36] <Upu> if you're production Euro
[07:36] <edmoore> save them for stuff wehere every cent matters, which is not aerospace
[07:36] <edmoore> yeah this is for paid work
[07:36] <edmoore> equation probably different for hobby
[07:36] <AndyEsser> edmoore: that makes sense
[07:36] <AndyEsser> so just use China for prototyping
[07:36] <AndyEsser> then move over to like multi for prod
[07:36] <AndyEsser> ?
[07:36] <edmoore> well i use eu for prototyping too
[07:36] <Upu> I've not found any UK or Euro based place that has sensible prices for hobbyists
[07:37] <AndyEsser> Mr. Moneybags
[07:37] <AndyEsser> :P
[07:37] <Upu> Well yes edmoore :)
[07:37] <Upu> Your requirements are different
[07:37] <edmoore> work pays for all my prototyping
[07:37] <Upu> I do like the German efficiency though
[07:37] Action: edmoore does a little dance
[07:37] <AndyEsser> Upu: yea understood - as I said, it's just if they ask the question about why I go offshore for PCB manufacture etc
[07:37] <edmoore> yes my PCBs come back within 4 days of me hitting send via fedex (faster if i pay more) and come with a free stainless laser-cut stencil
[07:38] <edmoore> the latter is a great boon
[07:38] <edmoore> i'm actually looking at newbury for fab and monoid for production for a run soon, which keeps everything within a 45 min drive of me
[07:38] <fsphil> beta?
[07:39] <edmoore> yes beta
[07:39] <Upu> Yes I know someone on here who paid £500 for a proto PCB in 2 days
[07:39] <edmoore> oh god i've done that plenty of times
[07:39] <edmoore> if it's something a customer needs then shmeh
[07:39] <edmoore> that's less than the day rate we charge them
[07:39] <AndyEsser> just pass the cost onto them :)
[07:39] <Upu> exactly
[07:39] <AndyEsser> I'll just convince the Uni to invest in the equipment and use them :P
[07:39] <AndyEsser> ha
[07:40] <edmoore> 'i saved you £200 by delaying delivery for 3 days!'
[07:40] <AndyEsser> edmoore: I'd hope that's less... given that's my day rate
[07:40] <edmoore> 'k thanx, I'll just tell the rocket to stay on the pad a bit longer, mind if i pass the $10m/day cost onto you?'
[07:40] <AndyEsser> lol
[07:40] <edmoore> yes that's my point
[07:40] <AndyEsser> any news on EDM?
[07:41] <edmoore> if they need is sap then any number the fab comes up with to do 24hr turnaround will be small
[07:41] <fsphil> news conf later
[07:41] <Upu> tbh at the moment its Farnell who are causing me issues with stock discrepancies and other stupid stuff
[07:41] <edmoore> not as far as i know
[07:41] <edmoore> farnell have got a bit worse of late i think
[07:41] <edmoore> they keep generously offering me 15% discounts*
[07:41] <AndyEsser> I saw they re-acquired the TGO signal, but no word from probe :(
[07:41] <edmoore> *when you spend £1000 or more
[07:41] <edmoore> when we have always called the rep when spending £1000 or more and got a bigger dicount than that anyway
[07:41] <AndyEsser> "make official statements at 9am UK time tomorrow [today])
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[07:42] <Upu> Ordered 64 items (in stock) got a messages saying they can only deliver 14 (rest in Decemeber) then finally after a days delay they said sorry stock discrepancy we can only ship 4
[07:42] <fsphil> TGO got telemetry from the lander, but they haven't said what it contained yet
[07:42] <AndyEsser> Upu: :(
[07:42] <AndyEsser> fsphil: photos from Venus :P
[07:42] <Upu> So PITS Boards delayed again
[07:43] <AndyEsser> goddamn... I'm going to have to go to Maplin....
[07:43] <AndyEsser> please don't kill me
[07:43] <Upu> Still could be worse, the Sarantels are on 2 month lead (in stock - no wait they aren't)
[07:48] <fsphil> hopefully this news conf is a little less "ESA" than the presentation yesterday
[07:48] <AndyEsser> with the really awkward woman?
[07:49] <fsphil> yeah
[07:49] <AndyEsser> "You're from the UK, I'm from the UK - this is a truly international effort"
[07:49] <AndyEsser> *facepalm*
[07:49] <fsphil> they like to put up the bureaucratic folk instead of the scientests
[07:50] <AndyEsser> She can stay - but yes - put up the interesting people
[07:51] <fsphil> and there's always usually a speech by some chairman that goes on too long. though I didn't see that yesterday
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[07:52] <fsphil> that might be ariane
[07:58] <fsphil> apparently lander status still unknown
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[08:01] <fsphil> urg, esa director general. I spoke too soon
[08:02] <AndyEsser> lol
[08:02] <fsphil> ah stream died. peace
[08:02] <AndyEsser> fsphil: link?
[08:02] <fsphil> http://livestream.com/ESA/marsarrival
[08:02] <AndyEsser> ta
[08:02] <fsphil> yeah they like to hide the links
[08:03] <fsphil> "the lander..." [starts describing how complicated the landing was]
[08:03] <fsphil> you know what's coming next
[08:03] <fsphil> oh this stream is useless
[08:03] <Upu> Beagle Tribute Mission ?
[08:04] <fsphil> works for about 15 seconds then freezes
[08:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> talking management heads
[08:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> its a steady stream here
[08:06] <fsphil> this happened during the rosetta videos too. I think my laptop and the esa stream don't agree
[08:06] Action: fsphil gives up
[08:07] <AndyEsser> it was fine for me to start with
[08:07] <AndyEsser> now it's crapping out
[08:07] <Vaizki> I give it about 5% chance that the lander is still in a state that allows any communication
[08:08] <Vaizki> feeling generous this morning as my tea was accidentally steeped for 20 minutes instead of 3..
[08:08] <Vaizki> also feel like a london cab driver
[08:08] <AndyEsser> HA!
[08:08] <AndyEsser> "The Lander has definitely, not behaved has planned"
[08:08] <fsphil> it was not nominal
[08:09] <Vaizki> unnominal
[08:09] <AndyEsser> anti-nominal
[08:09] <fsphil> nom nom inal
[08:10] <fsphil> "everything worked as planned up to a certain point"
[08:10] <fsphil> hah, I'll need to remember that one
[08:10] <AndyEsser> hehe
[08:10] <Vaizki> T-0... aaaand.. we're screwed.
[08:14] <fsphil> they're calling it a test now
[08:14] <fsphil> wasn't it a demonstrator before? :)
[08:14] <Vaizki> aye
[08:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> sounds like the telelmetry stream failed at point of failure.
[08:15] <fsphil> hmm
[08:16] <fsphil> just a radio failure maybe?
[08:16] <fsphil> would be horrible if it was the same as beagle. landed fine but couldn't talk back
[08:17] <Vaizki> consistency over performance
[08:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah no more data can be received a not right orbit and no carrier after failure
[08:18] <Vaizki> that's it then...
[08:19] <fsphil> karma for not having a camera on it :)
[08:24] <fsphil> sounds like it failed after the thrusters started firing
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[08:26] <fsphil> guess follow-up images from orbit will tell of it went bang or just fell in one piece
[08:26] <AndyEsser> no cutesy comics for this one?
[08:28] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah reset transceiever is a possibility if receiving
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[08:30] <edmoore> i have missed all this
[08:31] <edmoore> so parachute worked but it went wrong after parachute?
[08:31] <edmoore> retrorockets?
[08:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DSBEAR after 0320 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DSBEAR
[08:31] <M0RJX> edmoore, one of yours?
[08:32] <edmoore> not had anything to do with that for years
[08:32] <edmoore> poor david
[08:32] <Vaizki> edmoore: yes, retrorockets.. first small chute, then discards the heat shielding and land with retrorockets
[08:33] <Vaizki> looks like a clump of foil farting in the videos
[08:33] <edmoore> what video?
[08:33] <edmoore> there was no video surely
[08:33] <Vaizki> simulation videos
[08:33] <edmoore> oh right
[08:33] <Vaizki> naturally :P
[08:33] <edmoore> you had me interested there for a second
[08:34] <Vaizki> sorry, I know it's not good for your heart
[08:34] <edmoore> i think there's an upward pointing camera on mars2020 (ciriosity 2.0) which will be great
[08:34] <edmoore> we've never filmed chutes in action before on mars
[08:34] <edmoore> it'll be invluable
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[08:35] <Vaizki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C43KXGQuUuY
[08:35] <Vaizki> that's the landing simulation visualisation
[08:35] <edmoore> thanks watching
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[08:36] <edmoore> mars really sucks
[08:36] <edmoore> it needs a proper atmosphere
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[08:40] <edmoore> watched, thanks Vaizki
[08:40] <edmoore> i wonder who did the rocket subsystem
[08:40] <AndyEsser> I'm about 20 years away from being able to put my hand up to that :P
[08:42] <edmoore> you'll be lucky
[08:42] <edmoore> they probably used a thruster with 20 years of flight heritage anyway
[08:43] <AndyEsser> s/20/50
[08:44] <Vaizki> hydrazine thrusters
[08:48] <Vaizki> airbus 400N hydrazine thrusters it seems
[08:48] <Vaizki> 3 clusters, 3 in each
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[09:28] <fsphil> russia really haven't had much luck with mars
[09:29] <AndyEsser> and we have?
[09:30] <Vaizki> fsphil: well they were there first
[09:30] <Vaizki> as in arrived...
[09:30] <fsphil> true
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[09:35] <fsphil> "parachute was jettisoned too early"
[09:36] <fsphil> sounds fatal
[09:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Oh where did that come from ?
[09:37] <fsphil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37715202
[09:37] <Vaizki> mmm.. too early.. so maybe it flipped over or spun out of control and could not be stabilized again :P
[09:37] <fsphil> and rockets didn't fire for long enough
[09:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah yes, they must have been hammering at the doors at ESOC since the session this morning!
[09:42] <Vaizki> 3sec vs 30sec is indeed "not long enough"
[09:42] <fsphil> I think they said in the small bit of the video stream I saw that they got telemetry for 3 seconds after the engines fired
[09:43] <Vaizki> with 9 x 400N of thrust, that's a major burn missed
[09:43] <fsphil> not sure if they have telemetry showing it stopped firing, or the data just ended there
[09:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> indeed and then presuambly lost contact as it hit the ground
[09:43] <Vaizki> ah so it could have gone up in a hydrazine bonfire?
[09:43] <fsphil> it could have continued on fine but just not sending data
[09:44] <fsphil> yeah, released the magic smoke. and flames
[09:44] <fsphil> if it's in small pieces, it might not be visible from orbit
[09:44] <edmoore> fsphil: that was what was announced?
[09:44] <edmoore> chute jetissoned too early?
[09:44] <edmoore> oh sorry catching up reading
[09:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> not excactly announced but reported following the session
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[09:57] <Vaizki> well even intact it's only 2.4m in diameter so maybe the MRO can catch it
[09:58] <Vaizki> but not many others
[10:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD2EAT-12 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2EAT-12
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[10:33] <daveake> "communication with Schiaparelli is maintained for 19 seconds after the rockets are seen to shut off"
[10:34] <daveake> So AIUI it was 3 seconds of burn then 19 further seconds before telemetry was lost
[10:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Sounds about the right length of time to fall to the ground, given that 30 seconds of burn was expected to land ?
[10:38] <AndyEsser> yea, seems like it cratered to me
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[10:38] <AndyEsser> lands on the piece of evidence remaining that there was life on mars :)
[10:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> It will become a fossilised lander in a few million years - traces of life ?
[10:51] <mfa298> nah, the martians shot it down so we don't find out about it (ergo proof that there's life on mars) /conspiracy
[10:53] <AndyEsser> but mars and earth are flat!
[10:53] <RPF-James> I've asked before but forget, what's the channel name for requesting an hourly be setup?
[10:54] <mfa298> RPF-James: #habhub
[10:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !flights
[10:57] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Current flights: 03BARC4 10(95b3), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
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[11:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
[11:23] <fsphil> ah, it definitly stopped firing too early. oops
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[12:25] <Ian_> I bet that they didn't test it properly by throwing it down the stairs at ESA HQ . . .
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[12:29] <mfa298> there's probably some EU regulation that means your not allowed to
[12:31] <fsphil> they needed to hold a meeting about drawing up plans to organise a conference on the funding requirements of throwing it down the stairs
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[12:33] <mfa298> if it stops responding as it gets to the 1st step did it make it to the ground floor
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[12:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !flights
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Current flights: 03BARC4 10(95b3), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
[12:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !flight 95b3
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Flight 10(95b3): 03BARC4 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Today at 10:00 from 03South Yorkshire, UK 10(53.42357,-1.53693)
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[12:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !id 95b3
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> Flight 03BARC4 10(02566185e257034ef126abb9c7f895b3, approved, 1 payload)
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> Project 03undefined by 03undefined
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> Window: 03Yesterday at 23:00 UTC to 03Today at 22:59 UTC 10(Europe/London, +1)
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> Launch: 03Today at 10:00 UTC from 03Sheffield 10(53.42357,-1.53693)
[12:35] <SpacenearUS> Raw: 12http://habitat.habhub.org/monocle/?uri=habitat/02566185e257034ef126abb9c7f895b3
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[13:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[13:21] Nick change: xfce -> Guest26231
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[14:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N2NXZ-12 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N2NXZ-12
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[16:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[17:18] <FuzzyLemon> Hello! does anyone know about permits needed to launch balloons from the middle east?
[17:25] <Vaizki> thats not a country
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[17:39] <daveake> Best bet is to search the web for previous launches in whichever country you want to launch in, and try and contact the launcher. There was a recent launch in Israel, and at least one in Saudi, but I don't recall any from other middle east countries
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[18:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRF-SSDV after 0317 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRF-SSDV
[18:38] <AndyEsser> At a workshop at Bangor for building Rockets
[18:38] <AndyEsser> "I've been investigating these High Altitude Balloon guys"
[18:38] <AndyEsser> *ears pick up*
[18:38] <AndyEsser> They do some really weird and wonderful things sending payloads up high up in the atmosphere, and some weird parachutes
[18:39] <AndyEsser> Think he was referring to the cross-form parachute :P
[18:40] <fsphil> we're being investigated? :)
[18:40] <fsphil> nobody saw me do nothin'
[18:40] <fsphil> it was all AndyEsser's idea
[18:41] <AndyEsser> Yep
[18:41] <AndyEsser> Wait
[18:41] <AndyEsser> What?
[18:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP5NVX - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5NVX
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[19:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[20:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIGLET - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIGLET
[20:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NERDPI - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NERDPI
[20:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NERDLO - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NERDLO
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[22:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03S4 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S4
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[22:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03S5 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S5
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[22:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-18 after 032 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-18
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[23:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[00:00] --- Fri Oct 21 2016