highaltitude.log.20161011

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[05:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-3 after 0316 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-3
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[06:15] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS18 after 036 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS18
[06:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5KMP-5 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5KMP-5
[06:23] <SM0ULC-Reb> Incredible with all the loglived floaters! Allmost 10 :)
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[06:47] <SA6BSS-Mike> interesting path of ubseds, up over iceland greenland, svalbard circeling scandinavia and down
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[07:47] <garymortimer> Seems like BARC will be heading South https://www.windytv.com/?150h,52.862,-3.604,6
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[07:51] <gonzo_> it may even get above my horizon then!
[07:54] <garymortimer> Do we know if its still on?
[07:56] <gonzo_> doubt we will get much in the way of comms from them
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[08:29] <pb0ahx> GM all
[08:29] <pb0ahx> !flights
[08:29] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03Barc111016 10(57fc), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
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[08:46] <AndyEsser> morning
[08:47] <fsphil> bonjour
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[09:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5KMP-4 after 037 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5KMP-4
[09:03] <hyde00001> morning everyone, any BARC 111016 rumours?
[09:04] <edmoore> they were seen having dinner with harry styles
[09:07] <hyde00001> top rumour
[09:07] <hyde00001> they all thinking of getting high this morning?
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[09:11] <Upu> I'm fairly local to them and I can't see anything on the waterfall yet
[09:11] <AndyEsser> edmoore: I am disappointed you even know who that is :(
[09:11] <mfa298> a better question might be how quickly do we think they'll loose this payload ?
[09:13] <edmoore> AndyEsser: civilisation is crumbling all around us
[09:13] <edmoore> i'm not immune
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[09:16] <hyde00001> Re loosing payload - there are taking loads of precautions - pre-announced and not being in Mexico
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[09:17] <AndyEsser> edmoore: best get your rockets working and bugger off to Mars/Moon/Asteroid :)
[09:19] <mfa298> hyde00001: there's been two launched from sheffield recently that were lost as well (fri & sat)
[09:19] <edmoore> that's a very expensive way to kill oneself
[09:20] <edmoore> there are easier ways
[09:20] <mfa298> AndyEsser: easier to get them working enough to launch and sustain life and call if the b-ark
[09:20] <fsphil> underground bunker is the way to go
[09:21] <daveake> mfa298: Was it 2? I thought they turned out to be the same one. I may well be wrong - not been around much.
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[09:24] <AndyEsser> mfa298: If I had a reasonably sized capsule that could sustain me 'indefinitely' I would happily blast myself into orbit
[09:24] <hyde00001> reading the log back it seemed like two... but maybe I'm wrong too.. The Mexico one was even more bizzare...
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[09:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes two one Friday launched at 13:30 and one Saturday launched around 17:00
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[09:47] <daveake> ah right, ta
[09:48] <fsphil> AndyEsser: would get pretty boring up there
[09:49] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I'm sure I could find a way to keep myself occupied
[09:50] <AndyEsser> just not bloody video/radio chats with schools
[09:51] <fsphil> prank calls, like tim peake
[09:52] <AndyEsser> I guess my company should look at some sort of life sciences dept as well for generating oxygen, water and food
[09:52] <AndyEsser> hmm... probably have to become vegetarian
[09:52] <AndyEsser> wonder if I can grow tobacco in space...
[09:54] <fsphil> they seemed to have found a way in BSG
[09:54] <gonzo_> becoming a hermit in the forest sounds more appealing
[09:55] <AndyEsser> nah
[09:55] <AndyEsser> can still be found
[09:55] <AndyEsser> :P
[09:56] <fsphil> too many bugs
[09:57] <fsphil> I look forward to being on a spider-free planet
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[10:00] <gonzo_> not if the forest is big enough. Agree on the spiders. But will have a good supply of boots for spaltting them
[10:00] <AndyEsser> fsphil: knowing my luck - one would get into my luggage
[10:00] <gonzo_> they have had them in space, as stowaways. Even cleenroom can;t keep them out
[10:01] <fsphil> that's what the airlock is for
[10:01] <fsphil> I saw it in a documentary once
[10:02] <gonzo_> ot... Just watching some backups scroll passed. Currently doing the muppets original series. And it's frightening how many of the special guests hane popped off!
[10:03] <gonzo_> a forest would do me. Though not sure how I'd cope with having to go miles to pick up the deleverd crap I buy from ebay
[10:04] <fsphil> drone
[10:04] <fsphil> well, for the light weight stuff anyway
[10:16] <gonzo_> chute and sea plane I was thinking!
[10:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-18 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-18
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[11:14] <AndyEsser> Hmm yea, suppose I'd have to cancel my Amazon Prime membership
[11:14] <AndyEsser> and Netflix and Spotify
[11:14] <AndyEsser> :(
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[11:16] <gonzo_> just park yourself over a postcode they cover. They don't ask for altitude in the address do they?
[11:16] <gonzo_> flat 1677283b
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[11:19] <AndyEsser> haha
[11:19] <AndyEsser> wonder what the max altitude on their drones is...
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[11:32] <gonzo_> what alt will you aim for?
[11:32] <Vaizki> morning spacefaring hermits
[11:32] <gonzo_> morning ground-lubbers
[11:32] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: hmm... 400km?
[11:33] <AndyEsser> should be good enough
[11:33] <gonzo_> want to be away from the van-allen belts
[11:33] <gonzo_> or it will be a short and unpleasent trip
[11:33] <Vaizki> what do you mean you can be found in a forest.. if you are on a 400km orbit, there'll be a shitload of people monitoring your every move :)
[11:34] <Vaizki> and captain nemo life in a submarine for me please
[11:34] <gonzo_> in a forest you are probably more worried that you may be found by something, rather than someone
[11:34] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: might be able to see me, can't do anything or talk to me :P
[11:35] <gonzo_> forest, no-one to talk to
[11:36] <gonzo_> ("I talk to the trees. That's why they put me away..." :Spike Milligan)
[11:37] <SpikeUK> "I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and sky. I left my vest and socks there, I wonder if they're dry"
[11:42] <Vaizki> well lots of forest in Finland, welcome..
[11:42] <Vaizki> it's even cheap, you can buy a parcel and fence it off
[11:44] <fsphil> tempted
[11:44] <Vaizki> 50 000 euros for a square kilometer maybe.
[11:45] <AndyEsser> "cheap"
[11:45] <fsphil> that's about, *counts*, 50000 GBP
[11:45] <AndyEsser> lol
[11:45] <AndyEsser> thanks Brexit
[11:45] <AndyEsser> :P
[11:46] <Vaizki> well proper forest has trees and trees can be made into paper, lumber etc.. so they have value :P
[11:46] <Vaizki> I guess you could get some kind of tundra for very cheap but it's not a forest :)
[11:47] <fsphil> nah, forest is better
[11:47] <fsphil> clear a little spot in the middle and build a small house
[11:47] <gonzo_> scotish woodland is about double that
[11:47] <AndyEsser> in this country, that now requires planning permission
[11:47] <gonzo_> hoiuse is an issue in uk forests
[11:48] <gonzo_> (a wooden cabin is ok, as long as it is for 'workers shelter' for no more than 9mths
[11:48] <Vaizki> well it does here too, especially if there is a fireplace involved...
[11:49] <gonzo_> I thought about registering a plot as two different woodlands, then build a hut on the divide. You can have a line down the floor and if ever inspected, just say that we don't use that half till the winter
[11:49] <Vaizki> well not _here_, I'm in Mexico.. :) But Finland...
[11:50] <gonzo_> you have lots of geography in your life?!
[11:50] <Vaizki> huh? it's just business travel..
[11:50] <Vaizki> I'm here with the Prime Minister of Finland .. part of trade delegation
[11:52] <Vaizki> I have to say it's easier to get a lunch meeting with a CEO and CTO if you bring a PM with you...
[11:53] <gonzo_> we have a couple of them crated up in stores, for that very reason
[11:54] <fsphil> PMs?
[11:54] <Vaizki> what's the EAN code for a mildly offensive PM that doesn't spill tea?
[11:55] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: fancy
[11:55] <Vaizki> fsphil: try harder :)
[11:57] <gonzo_> prime minister
[11:57] <fsphil> May the PM be with you
[11:57] <gonzo_> always
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[12:36] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KK6QLY-11 after 0315 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KK6QLY-11
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[12:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> !flights
[12:42] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-M: Current flights: 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
[12:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> No sign of barc11016 then ...
[12:43] <AndyEsser> they've just had another doc approved in #habhub
[12:44] <AndyEsser> 12:29:31< Barc__> yes we couldn't launch today
[12:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah yes right try again tomorrow then.
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[12:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Looks like there aiming for the M6 then tomorrow!
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[12:51] <M0RJX> Well the good news, or the badnews if you're daveake, is that I'm back off to lanzarote for two weeks at the end of the month and it will be time to get some coding done. Are there any enhancements needed for the gateway?
[12:52] <fsphil> you have the weirdest coding habits
[12:53] <AndyEsser> I'm off to a cottage in Wales in two weeks
[12:54] <AndyEsser> much programming will be done
[12:54] <M0RJX> fsphil, holidays
[12:54] <AndyEsser> and rocket designs
[12:54] <AndyEsser> :P
[12:54] <M0RJX> Well i'm feeling alot better than I was last time so there won't be quite as much done between the surfing and the kayaking :-)
[12:55] <edmoore> never replied to your text M0RJX sorry but cool
[12:55] <M0RJX> Hey no probs
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[12:56] <M0RJX> opps
[12:56] <edmoore> what kinda rocket are you designing AndyEsser?
[12:57] <udat> fsphil: going to try to make a payload up, found an intermediate requirement for it
[12:57] <fsphil> oooh
[12:57] <udat> stick one capturing images in a tree out front to catch the phantom dog pooper
[12:57] Action: udat just back from cleaning his shoes and is motivated
[12:57] <udat> ;)
[13:00] <udat> figure it will be good practice
[13:01] <fsphil> ah. for a moment there I thought you meant hab payload. you'd have a hard time seeing that from 30km :)
[13:01] <udat> they are big, but not that big
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[13:05] <AndyEsser> edmoore: same one we've discussed before
[13:06] <edmoore> i discuss rocket engineers more than the average person you know AndyEsser, probably, so you'll have to help me out with remembering
[13:06] <edmoore> engines*
[13:07] <AndyEsser> 02 + CH4 liquid rocket engine
[13:07] <AndyEsser> O2*
[13:07] <edmoore> LO2?
[13:08] <edmoore> sorry misparsed
[13:08] <edmoore> oth liquid
[13:08] <edmoore> both*
[13:08] <edmoore> cryo will be a shit for you to start with
[13:08] <edmoore> there is no cheap way of doing it legally
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[13:08] <AndyEsser> likely gaseous to start with
[13:08] <edmoore> vastly easier
[13:08] <AndyEsser> Ideally I'd like to aim for Liquid
[13:08] <edmoore> recommend
[13:08] <AndyEsser> but... Fluid Rocket Engines don't sound as cool
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[13:08] <edmoore> biprop
[13:09] <AndyEsser> despite the propellants not being liquid :P
[13:09] <AndyEsser> two propellers?
[13:09] <edmoore> no
[13:09] <edmoore> we ususally say biprop
[13:09] <AndyEsser> I'd love to move to liquid O2 and CH4 at some point, but yes, cryo is a pain
[13:09] <edmoore> freqently rocket engines are gaseous injection
[13:09] <edmoore> by the time they've been through precombustors and cooling channels
[13:10] <edmoore> even if stored as a liquid
[13:10] <AndyEsser> sure
[13:10] <AndyEsser> makes sense
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[13:10] <AndyEsser> still need to get around to calculating the temperature and pressure of the combustion chamber, to then be able to move onto actual design questions
[13:10] <AndyEsser> which is what has held me up for months
[13:11] <AndyEsser> just need to sit down and spend some time on the problem
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[13:11] <edmoore> that's a hard thing to do
[13:11] <AndyEsser> indeed
[13:11] <edmoore> learn to use the Gordon and McBridge Chemical Equilibrium Analysis (CEA) code
[13:12] <edmoore> v standard
[13:12] <AndyEsser> I know the energy released from one "unit" of fuel being completely combusted
[13:12] <AndyEsser> but it's how that then affects pressure/temperature etc
[13:12] <AndyEsser> edmoore: ta
[13:12] Action: AndyEsser makes note
[13:13] <edmoore> they code has two papers attached - one explains how to use it and the other explains how it works which is very interesting
[13:13] <AndyEsser> Excellent
[13:13] <edmoore> it's a hard problem really, because it's 0.5*o2 + h2 = h20
[13:13] <edmoore> sorry it's *not* that
[13:13] <edmoore> if only it was
[13:13] <AndyEsser> once I have that info, it will inform things such as chamber volume, thickness of walls, flow rate of coolant, flow rate of propellants, etc etc
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[13:14] <edmoore> infact molecules dissociate at high temperatures and pressures so you have maybe 5 or 6 species in there
[13:14] Action: AndyEsser is tempted to just build massively over engineered chamber and experiment :)
[13:14] <AndyEsser> edmoore: o god....
[13:14] <edmoore> free oxygen, free hydrogen, o2, h2, oh groups
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[13:14] <edmoore> h20
[13:14] <edmoore> yeah 6
[13:15] <edmoore> each of them will have a different heat capacity and ethalpy of creation and reaction
[13:15] <AndyEsser> yea... I hadn't thought of that
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[13:15] <AndyEsser> I was focussing on basically a sterile/vacuum chamber, with just 2O2 + CH4 -> 2H20 + C02
[13:15] <edmoore> so say you pick a temperature from the chamber, like 3000K, you can then figure out what the partial pressures of each of those species would be
[13:17] <edmoore> well actually i've picked something simple and made it too simple still
[13:17] <edmoore> you have 6 unknown species so you need siz equations to solve for each
[13:17] <AndyEsser> I might just go back to writing websites....
[13:18] <edmoore> the first is easy and comes from the ratio of H and O that you can calculate from the massflow of each into the chamber
[13:19] <edmoore> so the sum of the partial pressures of all the hydrogen bearing species, times by the number of hydrogen atoms in it, divided by the partial pressure of all the oxygen bearing species, multiplied by the number of oxygen atoms per species, must be 2
[13:19] <edmoore> (2 oxygens per hydrogen)
[13:19] <edmoore> that's eq 1
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[13:20] <edmoore> then you know that the sum of all the partial pressures has to add up to the chamber pressure you picked out of your arse as a starting point
[13:20] <edmoore> and the remaining equations are the ratios of those species/dissociations as a function of temperature
[13:20] <AndyEsser> ok, so the chamber pressure is a number I choose to satsify a design/manufacture constraint (or desired thrust)
[13:20] <AndyEsser> and work backwards with that to give you temp + mass flow, etc
[13:20] <edmoore> e.g. at temperature T, how much H2 is actually 2H+
[13:21] <AndyEsser> Simples :)
[13:21] <edmoore> so you make a guess at what that T will be
[13:22] <edmoore> and then with that T you guess what the partial pressures will be of all the constituent species
[13:22] <edmoore> and then you solve the equations and add up the partial pressures and see if they agree with the chamber pressure you pulled out of your bum/are designing for
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[13:23] <edmoore> then you calculate the enthalpy (heat released) to form all of these species and see if it's enough to raise that amount of chemicals in those proportions to the chamber temperature you also pulled out of your bum
[13:24] <edmoore> and if they disagree you go back to square one and re-guess the temp/ratios of propellants
[13:24] <edmoore> and this is for a trivial example - h2 and o2
[13:24] <edmoore> if you start throwing carbons and nitrogens and stuff in then you get expoentially more species to have to model
[13:24] <AndyEsser> ah ok - so I need to take into account not only the enthalpy of formation for the exhaust gases, but also the intermediate species as well
[13:24] <edmoore> yes
[13:24] <AndyEsser> Definitely need another whiteboard...
[13:24] <edmoore> so the answer is you get CEA to calculate all this for you and it uses an optimisation technique called Lagrange Multipliers to home in on a solution
[13:25] <edmoore> all this is explained in the CEA paper
[13:25] <AndyEsser> will track down the code and the papers then this evening :)
[13:25] <edmoore> back in the 60s they did this by hand and this is one of the N reasons why rocketscience has the reputation that it does
[13:26] <AndyEsser> Yea, I read somewhere as well that there was a large amount of experimental work done (finding L* etc) for various propellants etc, that is basically too costly to reproduce, so it's all just based on that
[13:27] <edmoore> C* probably
[13:27] <edmoore> but yes CEA has all the equilibrium states vs temp curves for many many species built in
[13:27] <edmoore> that work is all doen for you
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[13:27] <AndyEsser> woo
[13:27] <AndyEsser> ta
[13:28] <edmoore> you have Concepts in Thermal Physics right?
[13:28] <AndyEsser> I do
[13:29] <edmoore> so an appendix in that explains lagrange multipliers
[13:29] <edmoore> that's probably the only new maths you need to understand cea
[13:29] <AndyEsser> But I got a bit overwhelmed with some of the maths in there, so went back further back to my A-Level maths books for Core and Mech
[13:29] <AndyEsser> need to work through those and the test questions and ensure I have a really solid understanding before heading back to Concepts in Thermal Physics
[13:29] <AndyEsser> my D in A-Level maths isn't going to cut it ;)
[13:29] <edmoore> langrange multipliers assume multivariable calculus
[13:29] <edmoore> that's it tho
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[13:31] <AndyEsser> thanks edmoore
[13:32] <AndyEsser> I'd love to be able to start building this early-ish next year
[13:32] <AndyEsser> March-ish
[13:32] <edmoore> get readin
[13:32] <edmoore> huzel and huang is also good for more detailed stuff on engine design
[13:32] <AndyEsser> Hence - long weekend in Wales away from people and distractions
[13:32] <edmoore> CEA is definitely worth learning
[13:33] <edmoore> it's the right answer
[13:33] <AndyEsser> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Engineering-Propellant-Astronautics-Aeronautics-1992-01-01/dp/B01JXMOFFG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476192794&sr=8-1&keywords=huzel+and+huang
[13:33] <AndyEsser> ?
[13:33] <edmoore> yeah but there's a pdf somewhere
[13:33] <AndyEsser> yea, google shows it
[13:34] <AndyEsser> problem is I really struggle with reading PDF reference/text books
[13:34] <AndyEsser> would rather pay the money for a physical copy
[13:34] <AndyEsser> hence the forking out of £100 for RPE
[13:35] <edmoore> yeah
[13:35] <edmoore> well read the first half of rpe at least
[13:35] <edmoore> maybe with thermal physics textbook
[13:35] <AndyEsser> And I'm sure Bangor or Chester Uni would happily take a donation of the books, or sell them to the students if needs be :P
[13:36] <edmoore> before diving in try and be happy enough with isentropic gas relationships
[13:36] <edmoore> as it assumes them
[13:36] <edmoore> e.g. the volume rations are proportional to pressure rations to the power 1/gamma
[13:37] <edmoore> and temperature ratios to the power 1/(gamma-1)
[13:37] <edmoore> all that stuff
[13:37] <edmoore> then you can dive into rpe
[13:42] <AndyEsser> apologies - had to have a quick conversation with PM about Xmas period
[13:45] <AndyEsser> well Huzel and Huang isn't fulfilled by Amazon so not eligible for next day delivery, so guess I should set the arrival date as having gotten up to speed :)
[13:46] <edmoore> maybe try rpe alone for now
[13:46] <edmoore> see if you feel like you can design a simple gas engine
[13:47] <AndyEsser> that makes sense
[13:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[14:17] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
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[15:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-5 after 0313 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-5
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[16:44] <jakeio> Ping Upu.
[16:45] <Upu> Hi
[16:45] <jakeio> Just wanted to check you had 8 of the Ublox Max-m8qs with chip antennas?
[16:46] <Upu> Are you bothered about the PCB being 1.6mm thick ? If so yes
[16:46] <Upu> If you want .8mm next week
[16:46] <jakeio> No, is that any different to normal?
[16:47] <Upu> Normally 0.8mm
[16:47] <Upu> But fab made a mistake
[16:48] <jakeio> No problem, just want to query has my schools order come through, should be 8 NTX2B, 8 Ublox and that should be it.
[16:48] <Upu> Not got the order yet
[16:49] <jakeio> Ah, probably tomorrow then. Well, when that order comes through we're definitely good with the 1.6mm thick PCBs.
[16:49] <Vaizki> limited edition boards
[16:49] <jakeio> Indeed, they'll be worth something in 50 years!
[16:50] <Upu> Lol
[16:51] <jakeio> Thanks Upu!
[16:51] <jakeio> (For checking the stock and all that, not for the lol!)
[16:52] <Vaizki> well believe it or not, I have an old 3dfx graphics card which is apparently worth hundreds today because the PCB is just a bit different from the production ones and the serial# is hand written..
[16:54] <mfa298> careful, don't give upu ideas :p - If he starts hand writing serial numbers on the boards and increases the price we know who to blame
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[17:05] <Vaizki> any guilt felt will be well offset by my managerial cut from the Upu Uniques Collection sales
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[17:58] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HIRFW-6 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HIRFW-6
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[18:56] <DutchMillbt> Hi PE2BZ in the house
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[20:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DK0FR-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DK0FR-11
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[20:52] <Upu> has it been a national holiday in Germany today ?
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[21:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
[21:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5KMP-3 after 037 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5KMP-3
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[00:00] --- Wed Oct 12 2016