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[03:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-17 after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-17
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[04:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03labjg_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=labjg_chase
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[05:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Zs6jdy_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Zs6jdy_chase
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[05:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03alarm_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=alarm_chase
[05:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 0311 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
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[08:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Ps-68_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Ps-68_chase
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[08:17] <fsphil> that'll be a fun chase
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[08:31] <lz1dev> maybe it's a boat :>
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[08:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI434 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI434
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[10:54] <steve___> Hi, my son (Robert) has a balloon almost ready to go. He's been put in contact with Churchill College students and looking for help to launch. We noticed that his uploads are showing up on the flight tracker - wanted to check that all was ok
[10:54] <mfa298> testing before the flight is good
[10:55] <mfa298> so if it's appearing on the map that's a good thing
[10:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Has he created a Payload and a Flight Doc for when its ready to go ?
[10:57] <steve___> The payload is called HERMES1 - I think it needs finalising (he's working out how to get 'time' into the payload sentence) and some testing (driving round in the car over the meridian). Should be ready to go early next week. How does he file a flight doc?
[10:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Same way as he created the Payload Doc, goto the habitat site, create a Flight doc - which links to the payload doc, the time dates, info etc. this puts it on the calendar and also makes it easier to retrieve all the actual flight data later
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[11:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
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[11:03] <steve_____> thanks - (I see the link to create a flight doc). Looks like he should complete this once launch site/date is finalised.
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[11:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup that's the idea, its also an idea to post to the mailing list as not everyone uses the calandar https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[11:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 039 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
[11:06] <steve_____> thanks
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[11:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VA2RMG-11 - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VA2RMG-11
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[11:11] <pb0ahx> !flights
[11:11] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03UBSEDS19&20 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(303d), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
[11:16] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03M0SBU-10 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0SBU-10
[11:16] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS20 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS20
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[11:32] <AndyEsser> surface is here!!
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[11:47] <Hix> Afternoon peeps. Just discovered that you can run ADSB on RPi with SDR. I've got a load of both kicking round, so thought it might be a good move. Do any of you guys do anything with ADSB? I remember Upu did a preamp for 1099MHz but was wondering which would be the best antenna for low budget loft use? Any ideas?
[11:48] <Upu> Yes use mine
[11:48] <fsphil> how's that for targeted advertising
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[11:50] <Hix> Upu, you have antennae?
[11:50] <mfa298> Hix I've run adsb on the pi1 fairly happily in the past, even got a few planes with the crappy antenna that came with the dongle
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[11:50] <mfa298> the hardest part of getting it doing was deciding which of the many varying dump1090 versions to use (not sure if that's improved or got worse)
[11:51] <Hix> I found the 'cantenna' https://goo.gl/Cmccwe which I'll probably give a go, but was just punting the question out to see what (if any) people used
[11:51] <Upu> Nope try the jet vision ones
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[11:51] <Upu> Airspy + my lna = great performer
[11:51] <jakeio> Can someone approve my post on UKHAS Google group?
[11:51] <Upu> Just in car ATM will be back in 15
[11:52] <Hix> ok, will look into airspy, cheers Upu
[11:57] <fsphil> out of curiosity, why do people run adsb receivers?
[11:57] <craag> someone pointed out the fr24 rankings to me the other day
[11:58] <craag> it ranks by average range :/
[11:58] <craag> turns out being on a mast within 50 miles of heathrow and stansted doesn't do well for that lol
[11:59] <craag> fsphil: I had free mast space and a free ethernet socket.. no other reason really :)
[12:00] <jakeio> I need opinions on payload design. Having a 434 and an 868 MHz antenna on the same payload has proven difficult...
[12:00] <craag> Split them up
[12:00] <craag> well, assuming they're not the same tx
[12:00] <jakeio> By at least 164mm?
[12:00] <craag> are they seperate trackers?
[12:01] <mfa298> fsphil: I did it to see how easy it was, then killed it, although when I tried it if you upload to fr24 you got free access as well
[12:01] <jakeio> They're in the same box craag, they've got to be nearish.
[12:01] <Hix> craag, so the locations plotted are the average of the range from all rx's?
[12:01] <jakeio> 1 mo, I'll send a pic.
[12:01] <craag> jakeio: Ah. In which case yeah just space them horizontally by at least ~16cm
[12:02] <mfa298> at least 434 and 868 shouldn't be as resonant with each other so hopefully less impact than if they were both the same band
[12:03] <craag> Hix: Where are you seeing locations plotted?
[12:04] <jakeio> craag, http://i.imgur.com/YkCnITD.jpg
[12:04] <Upu> back now
[12:05] <jakeio> It's about 200mm separated.
[12:05] <craag> jakeio: interesting -that should work :)
[12:05] <jakeio> That is, separated from the furthest point on a ground plane radials by 200mm.
[12:05] <craag> (I'm assuming it's upside down)
[12:05] <jakeio> Yes, it is.
[12:05] <Upu> Hix: I use one of these http://shop.jetvision.de/A3-ADS-B-Antenna, one of these http://www.eurosdr.co.uk/?airspy.co.uk (The Mini) and one of these https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=50
[12:05] <Upu> and fsphil I have no idea
[12:06] <craag> that's plenty - I meant driven element <-> driven element
[12:06] <Upu> I do it to make sure my kit works
[12:06] <craag> looks good :0
[12:06] <craag> *:)
[12:06] <TIBS01> ive got two of them
[12:06] <TIBS01> adsb recievers
[12:06] <Darkside_> ok, big-ass cross-dipole is back on the car https://goo.gl/photos/ArAsXog1M9xunuva9
[12:06] <TIBS01> http://essex.gibbs-hosting.co.uk one of them
[12:06] <TIBS01> there both run off raspberry pi's
[12:07] <Upu> https://uk.flightaware.com/adsb/stats/user/M0UPU thats me
[12:07] <TIBS01> that on that website is using dump1090
[12:07] <TIBS01> i have one on flightradar24.com
[12:07] <TIBS01> aswell
[12:07] <TIBS01> i have two 1090mhz antennas
[12:08] <TIBS01> i also run a weather station
[12:08] <TIBS01> two ham radio repeaters
[12:08] <TIBS01> 8 19 inch rackmount servers all in the shed :D
[12:08] <Darkside_> https://goo.gl/photos/dbdSniWJyBixdUHB9
[12:09] <TIBS01> whats that a repeater
[12:09] <Hix> craag - I've looked at flightaware in the past, though there are a couple that are trying to do military traffic that are launching soon.
[12:09] <TIBS01> they aint
[12:09] <craag> oh interesting
[12:09] <TIBS01> people were complaining saying that mlat was exposing too many mil aircraft
[12:10] <craag> I've just got an fr24-supplied box
[12:10] <TIBS01> they released a new mlat verision using dump1090 to reduce the mlat
[12:10] <craag> and then antenna about 70ft AGL
[12:10] <SIbot> In real units: 70 ft = 21 m
[12:10] <Upu> I have one question TIBS01
[12:10] <Upu> how long is your beard ?
[12:10] <TIBS01> lol not long
[12:10] <Darkside_> >_>
[12:10] <Darkside_> Upu: hey, i;m just as hammy
[12:10] <Darkside_> and i have zero beard
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[12:10] <TIBS01> why where u seen me
[12:10] <TIBS01> lol
[12:10] <AndyEsser> hehe
[12:10] <AndyEsser> Upu: I got what you meant :P
[12:10] <Upu> you're not hammy you're nerdy :)
[12:11] <TIBS01> im both
[12:11] <TIBS01> :P
[12:11] <TIBS01> hammy and nerd :)
[12:11] <Darkside_> Upu: i have a frigging 1kW HF amplifier
[12:11] <Darkside_> surely thats got to be classed as hammy
[12:11] <TIBS01> valve or tranny
[12:11] <Upu> but it seems many people enjoy high tech plane spotting judging by the number of amps I sell
[12:11] <Darkside_> TIBS01: solid state, yaesu VL-1000
[12:11] <TIBS01> nice
[12:12] <Upu> but it seems many people enjoy high tech plane spotting judging by the number of amps I sell
[12:12] <TIBS01> your full license then
[12:12] <TIBS01> i got a 400 watt tranny
[12:12] <TIBS01> ssb
[12:12] <Hix> so they are reducing the ability to pick up military traffic?
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[12:12] <Darkside_> TIBS01: VK5QI
[12:13] <Darkside_> hrm i need to update my QRZ page... it's woefully out of date
[12:14] <Darkside_> Upu: do you have any zoomed in S21 plots of the 403mhz habamp?
[12:14] <Darkside_> i cant figure out the cutoff points from that plot
[12:14] <Upu> err 1 sec Darkside
[12:15] <Upu> http://www.golledge.com/pdf/products/specs/mp03988.pdf
[12:15] <Darkside_> aha
[12:15] <Darkside_> aww
[12:15] <Darkside_> it rolls off right around where the local sondes transmit (400.5MHz)
[12:16] <Upu> http://www.golledge.com/docs/products/saw/gsrf_list.htm
[12:17] <Darkside_> holy crap
[12:17] <Darkside_> thats a nice range
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[12:18] <Darkside_> http://www.golledge.com/pdf/products/specs/ma08363.pdf nice, centered right over where i'm doing my FSK stuff :P
[12:18] <Darkside_> haha
[12:23] <edmoore> AndyEsser: Mark Andrews'
[12:24] <edmoore> without the apostrophe it sounds like you used him in an absuive sense
[12:24] <edmoore> abusive*
[12:24] <AndyEsser> edmoore: the FB app on my phone refused to let me try and use the apostrophe correctly, so gave up
[12:25] <edmoore> that's terrible
[12:25] <edmoore> kill it with fire
[12:25] <AndyEsser> Yes noss
[12:25] <AndyEsser> boss*
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[12:28] <jakeio> What sort of range should I get with this Yagi design? http://widerimage.co.uk/docs/Mountain_Yagi_434_4Element.pdf
[12:28] <Darkside_> "depends"
[12:29] <jakeio> Yes, just realised how daft a question that is.
[12:29] <Darkside_> haha some nice translations in there
[12:29] <Darkside_> thats not what i call a driven element...
[12:29] <Darkside_> >_>
[12:29] <edmoore> on a hab with normal rtty and a decent ham radio receiver, you'll get line of sight probably
[12:29] <edmoore> so up to sort of 500/600/700km
[12:29] <jakeio> Using FunCube receiver.
[12:30] <jakeio> Would having my directors, reflector and driven element made of stainless steel coathangar affect performance?
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[12:33] <Upu> can make maps for pretty much any of those Darkside_
[12:34] <jakeio> Do I solder the core of the coax onto one side of the driven element and the sheath onto the other side, or is that wrong?
[12:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0csp_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0csp_chase
[12:35] <gonzo__> stainless should be fine, but you will have trouble soldering to it
[12:36] <gonzo__> looking at the link you posted above, yes you solder as described
[12:36] <jakeio> Yeah, I had trouble soldering it when I first made it, and it just came loose during the chase for my last fligh anyway.
[12:37] <jakeio> With my first 2 flights I had remarkable worse performance than the range edmoore suggests, even with LoS.
[12:37] <edmoore> 50 baud rtty?
[12:37] <jakeio> 75 baud rtty.
[12:37] <edmoore> close enough
[12:37] <jakeio> :P
[12:37] <gonzo__> you can cur the brass joiners out of chock block and screw them over the stainless. Then you can solder or screw the coax to that
[12:37] <edmoore> yeah if both ends are sound and one of the ends is a yagi then LoS should really be the limiting factor
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[12:38] <gonzo__> cut
[12:38] <mfa298> jakeio: normal setup would be braid soldered to one side and the inner to the other.
[12:38] <jakeio> Yeah, that's what I've had thus far.
[12:38] <jakeio> So, that's not the problem.
[12:38] <gonzo__> what is the receive system?
[12:38] <jakeio> FunCube dongle pro+
[12:38] <jakeio> and that Yagi.
[12:40] <gonzo__> ok, the FCD P+ should be sensitive enough
[12:40] <gonzo__> assuming configured correctly. (I've only used one with the funcube satellite s
[12:40] <gonzo__> dashboard sw)
[12:40] <mfa298> jakeio: was that the one with the 434 mhz antenna on top of the payload ?
[12:41] <gonzo__> have others receioved your previous flights at an expected range?
[12:42] <mfa298> I've used the FCD P+ tracking flights before and it's comparable to the FT817 and TS2000 (with just a small GP antenna out the window)
[12:42] <daveake> Agreed - I've had very similar results between FCD P+ and 817
[12:42] <gonzo__> the P+ has good LNA and filtering. It's actually red hot at 50MHz
[12:43] <daveake> Probably squeeze a bit more out of the FCD by adjusting LNA gain, but it's marginal
[12:44] <jakeio> jakeio, sorry, yes it was in the last flight not in the first flight.
[12:45] <jakeio> Why did I start with jakeio! I meant mfa298!
[12:46] <jakeio> I did manage to get 10k range out of it once, it's probably my not pointing it in the right direction.
[12:46] <mfa298> when it was on top that might not have helped.
[12:46] <jakeio> Yeah, it really didn't, but the first flight wasn't on the top.
[12:47] <jakeio> Both are on the bottom this time, as shown: http://i.imgur.com/YkCnITD.jpg
[12:47] <mfa298> when chasing it's probably better using a magmount on the car rather than a yagi (not sure what setup you had)
[12:47] <gonzo__> worth seeing if you can borrow a yagi to compare against
[12:47] <jakeio> I've got two 1/4 waves mounted on the roof of the car.
[12:48] <mfa298> you will probably find the signal drops if you're directly under the payload, the GP antennas are better out to the side, not so good going straight down.
[12:48] <gonzo__> but having copper soldered to stainless is not good. It was probably only stuck there with theflux
[12:49] <jakeio> gonzo__, and probably the insulation tape...
[12:49] <jakeio> :P
[12:49] <gonzo__> you shoudl geta useable range from 1/4 on car
[12:49] <gonzo__> terminal block inserts have helped me a lot to connect to non-solderable metals
[12:50] <fsphil> I've recevied flights over 300km away on a small 1/4 magmount on the car
[12:50] <jakeio> fsphil, how the!?
[12:52] <fsphil> 50 bit/s at 10mw seems fine even at silly ranges
[12:53] <fsphil> this was an ft817 iirc, was quite a while ago
[12:54] <gonzo__> was that with one of the little watson type ones with a million metres of silly thin coax?
[12:54] <fsphil> hah, yes
[12:54] <fsphil> actually at 434mhz it might not be 1/4
[12:54] <fsphil> but it shouldn't be much different
[12:55] <gonzo__> think they are something like a 5/8ths at 70cm
[12:55] <gonzo__> and a loaded 1/4 at 2
[12:55] <mfa298> reasonable antenna, good location (hopefully) reasonable coax, good radio should give a decent range
[12:55] <daveake> and no RP-SMA within a 1 mile radius
[12:56] <gonzo__> 5/8 is a really good antenna for terrestrial V?UHF comms
[12:56] <fsphil> I remember hearing one of rjharrison's flights with a yagi, while the yagi was sitting on the ground and pointing the wrong way
[12:56] <gonzo__> hehe, yes, an utterly stupid connector
[12:56] <AndyEsser> fsphil: lol
[12:57] <Darkside_> RP-TNC is worse gonzo__
[12:58] <gonzo__> those watson things do need the coax trimming short, enough to get it through the door seal, then go to rg58 inside the car
[12:58] <gonzo__> thiose things live on cisco WLAN boxes
[12:58] <fsphil> I got an 869mhz magmount recently, it has 5m of thin coax. the losses are probably fairly bad
[12:58] <Darkside_> yes they would be terrible
[12:58] <Darkside_> make up a little magmount box with a preamp in it or something
[12:58] <gonzo__> the whole RP thiong was not thought through by the FCC
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[12:59] <fsphil> Darkside_: good idea
[12:59] <Darkside_> actually there's something that would be useful... a preamp box that can be switched out by turning on and off a bias
[12:59] <Darkside_> and we use one of the interrupt lines on a lora chip to switch it
[12:59] <Darkside_> (if you're using a lora module)
[12:59] <Darkside_> that way it can still transmit, but can receive with a nice preamp up the stick
[12:59] <fsphil> are there RF switch ICs that can 'default' without power?
[13:00] <Darkside_> not sure what you'd want ot use actually
[13:00] <Darkside_> since you need a lot of isolation to stop the LNA from oscillating
[13:01] <gonzo__> I assume lora is too fast for electromech switching?
[13:01] <Darkside_> probaby doesnt need to be
[13:01] <daveake> you could switch it, wait 200ms or something, then tx
[13:01] <Darkside_> increase the preamble length
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[13:02] <Darkside_> make sure the preamble is > switching time
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[13:02] <gonzo__> that would be good if poss, save a lot of design ofPIN ccts
[13:03] <Darkside_> as it is, i havent had issues with the lora links, but i'm not running on 868 mhz...
[13:03] <Darkside_> (which would be 915 mhz here)
[13:03] <gonzo__> is tx controled from the PI or decided in the LORA chip?
[13:03] <Darkside_> i prefer to run on a band where i dont have to deal with other users...
[13:04] <gonzo__> looking at the board, you shoudl eb able to split the T and R paths out, then you only need the switching on the antenna
[13:04] <gonzo__> is you use a single one
[13:05] <Darkside_> i want to figure out how to build a preamp into this thing: https://goo.gl/photos/8yCZ6iqERV6uXQ778
[13:06] <Darkside_> problem is the phasing of the two dipole is done in coax
[13:07] <Darkside_> so i'd need some kind of discrete phasing network, or maybe use a hybrid coupler
[13:10] <gonzo__> is taht a DF antenna?
[13:12] <Darkside_> nah
[13:12] <Darkside_> cross dipole, out of a vaisala radiosonde ground station
[13:12] <Darkside_> quite an old one actually
[13:14] <Darkside_> works well above about 10 degrees elevation
[13:15] <Darkside_> below that, i'm better off switching to an omni
[13:16] <craag> with hab receivers getting cheaper (sdr, lora, and down..), some day soon we can just cover a car roof in random antennas with their own receivers and watch the tradeoffs :)
[13:17] <Darkside_> i'm almost there >_>
[13:17] <gonzo__> why can you not just add the lna after the phasing?
[13:18] <Darkside_> i can, and i am at the moment
[13:18] <Darkside_> but at the moment the phasing lines are fairly long
[13:19] <Darkside_> there's two coaxes that run down into the car, about 2m long each, and one is 1/4 wavelength longer than the other
[13:20] <gonzo__> I did look at haveing a CP system, using seperate PA/LNA for each dipole
[13:20] <gonzo__> would work on TX, as I' dhave twice the power of a single PA, but on RX I'd have double the NF
[13:20] <Darkside_> interesting
[13:21] <Darkside_> i'm currently working on a new cross dipole antenna
[13:21] <Darkside_> i want to compare performance with the big one
[13:21] <gonzo__> ah, ok. Did they originally use that with some extra phasing in the car to steed it?
[13:21] <gonzo__> steer
[13:21] <Darkside_> eh?
[13:21] <Darkside_> the black cross dipole was used in a vaisala rx station
[13:21] <Darkside_> stationary thing, big dome
[13:21] <Darkside_> it acted as an omni antenna
[13:22] <Darkside_> there were also 6 other 3 element yagis covering the lower elevation angles, spaced evenly around a circle
[13:22] <gonzo__> I had two identical 50W PAs, and it was easier to just split and phase in the drive,rather than trying to combine them both
[13:22] <Darkside_> im sure we have photos of that antenna somewhere
[13:24] <gonzo__> sounds interesting. They had these at remote/elevated sites?
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[13:25] <AndyEsser> I presume the more gain you design a yagi to have, the more directional it becomes?
[13:25] <craag> yes
[13:25] <AndyEsser> thought so :)
[13:26] <craag> think of it as a balloon, that can be spherical (omnidirectional), or you can squeeze it in a direction.
[13:26] <craag> the volume stays the same
[13:26] <craag> so the balloon, from a center point, gets smaller in other directions
[13:27] <craag> a high gain colinear is a flat, almost disc-like, balloon
[13:27] <gonzo__> I like to use the lightbulb + reflector/lens analogy
[13:27] <craag> I like balloons :)
[13:28] <mfa298> balloon is quite a good ananlogy for that, although I prefer the simpsons analogy for a vertical / colinear antenna
[13:28] <mfa298> mmm, donuts
[13:29] <gonzo__> hehe, that's what I always think!
[13:29] <gonzo__> the light bulb woreks wekk to descxribe the isotropic
[13:29] <gonzo__> works well
[13:32] <gonzo__> directionality can also help as it reduces the noise that the antenna sees. Especially if it is an issue of sky/ground noise. And for terrestrial systems, it reduces the amoutnt of interference from man made stuff. I find this on 434 which is busy here
[13:33] <gonzo__> so you can improve your signal/noise ratio by more than just the gain of the antenna
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[13:39] <AndyEsser> Do still plan on getting a 434Mhz Yagi up on the chimney pointing SE-ish
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[13:41] <PE2BZ> craag that
[13:41] <PE2BZ> craag that´s a great explanation !
[13:41] <AndyEsser> the bulb + reflector seems to make more sense to me :P
[13:41] <AndyEsser> but the balloon isn't a terrible explanation ;)
[13:42] <PE2BZ> I rather compress a balloon than a light bulb :-P
[13:42] <PE2BZ> AndyEsser consider 4 stacked 70 cm yagi´s ;-)
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[13:43] <gonzo__> the light bulb is useful when you have to explain eirp and actual power levels to non radio people (and sometimes to radio people)
[13:44] <gonzo__> when you are talking of huge eipr and the risks (or lack of) to people
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> LASER pointer too
[13:45] <gonzo__> also good for visualising the inverse square nature and incident power, capture area etc
[13:48] <AndyEsser> PE2BZ: lol
[13:48] <AndyEsser> that seems excessive for HAB
[13:49] <PE2BZ> HAB ´s fly close to satellites ;-)
[13:49] <AndyEsser> ha
[13:50] <PE2BZ> A Yagi requires an rotator
[13:50] <AndyEsser> doesn't _require_ if it's not that gainful ;)
[13:50] <PE2BZ> An omnidirectional yagi ?
[13:51] <AndyEsser> but yes, ideally I'd love something like ultra gain Yagi with Rotator/Elevator
[13:51] <AndyEsser> PE2BZ: not quite - but something like 30 degrees would cover most of the UK for me
[13:52] <PE2BZ> AndyEsser indeed, I cover 3/4 of the UK with a 7 elements yagi, 42 deg vertical opening and 45 horizontal
[13:52] <AndyEsser> the other 1/4 (presume parts of cornwall, and then Scotland) aren't important
[13:52] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:53] <PE2BZ> Cornwall is important ! It´s the home of SDR-Console ;-)
[13:54] <PE2BZ> So yagi with habamp = fun
[13:55] <gonzo__> remember that the beamwidthof a yagi is not at a constant gain. Usually you talk about the 3dB points. So if a yagi has 3dB points of 30deg, that is where the gain has droppedby half. So you will still want to be peaking within that 30deg for max signal
[13:57] <gonzo__> also the cleanness of the pattrern may be important on 434. A yagi with lots of side lobes off the main axis, will also be picking up all the local LPD chatter
[13:57] <AndyEsser> LPD?
[13:57] <gonzo__> low power devices
[13:57] <AndyEsser> ah
[13:58] <AndyEsser> yea, 434 around me is noisy :(
[13:58] <AndyEsser> seriously considering moving to Ruthin
[13:58] <AndyEsser> for the same rent, can get a 5 bed detached house with 1 acre garden
[13:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> https://www.f9ft.com/20938e.html
[13:58] <SIbot> In real units: 9 ft = 2.74 m
[13:58] <AndyEsser> lo
[13:58] <AndyEsser> lol*
[13:58] <gonzo__> I sometimes find that best reception is where I find a null on a local noise, without being fully peaked on the HAB
[13:59] <gonzo__> there used to be a rifle range there
[13:59] <gonzo__> llangollen club use dto use it,m before some lawer brought a house near thatn complained about the noise
[14:00] <AndyEsser> Yea, think you mentioned back at EMF
[14:00] <AndyEsser> speaking off, really should email John sometime
[14:00] <gonzo__> hehe, that got sibot!
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[14:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03FLIHI_NK - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=FLIHI_NK
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[14:23] <AndyEsser> 54 attendees to the conference, not bad!
[14:24] <Laurenceb> I will probably attend
[14:24] <Laurenceb> it's nice to get out of London but Cambridge is a pain to get to from midlands
[14:24] <Laurenceb> 3 hours on train :(
[14:25] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb: drive then
[14:25] <AndyEsser> _WAY_ more fun
[14:25] <AndyEsser> lol
[14:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Hoping they don't change the strike plans down here! And have trains at the right places on Friday morning!
[14:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS18 after 0312 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS18
[14:28] <gonzo__> depends what car I have avail next weekend
[14:29] <gonzo__> in mid MoT work on the main one, depends if I finish and get a test booked in time
[14:29] <AndyEsser> I may or may not have bought a car by that point
[14:29] <AndyEsser> so will likely be the Tucson I currently have hire
[14:29] <AndyEsser> hired*
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[14:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[14:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> !track ubseds18
[14:47] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-M: Here you go - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ubseds18
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[15:27] <PE0SAT> !flights
[15:27] <SpacenearUS> 03PE0SAT: Current flights: 03UBSEDS19&20 434.610 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(303d), 03UBSEDS18 434.612.5 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(64a5)
[15:42] <Laurenceb> falcon9 failure was weird
[15:42] <Laurenceb> I'd never have thought it could explode like it did
[15:45] <edmoore> ?
[15:45] <edmoore> it's full of fuel
[15:45] <edmoore> and oxidiser
[15:46] <Laurenceb> giving deflagration not detonation
[15:46] <edmoore> that's what happens if they meet each other not in the right part of the rocket
[15:46] <edmoore> there was some detonation when presumably there was good mixing
[15:46] <edmoore> there's a shockwave half way through the process
[15:47] <Laurenceb> I wonder if their He tank resin isnt as xplosion proof as they claim
[15:47] <Laurenceb> exploding He tank composite would explain it
[15:47] <edmoore> but otherwise you'll only get combustion at the mixing interface and they won't be especially well mixed at the beginning when cold bulk stores gradually collapse on each other
[15:47] <Laurenceb> I meant the initial explosion
[15:47] <Laurenceb> there was nothing then a v high energy explosion milliseconds later
[15:47] <edmoore> who knows
[15:47] <edmoore> some dirt
[15:48] <edmoore> lox is unforgiving
[15:48] <Laurenceb> they licensed some special floropolymer resin to allow the He tanks to be immersed in LOX
[15:48] <Laurenceb> maybe it doesnt work as well as claimed...
[15:48] <Laurenceb> aiui the electron rocket is using the same stuff
[15:49] <russss> when lox is present there is not a huge difference between burning and exploding
[15:49] <edmoore> well if i were you what i'd do is arbitrarily decide it's the He tanks and then speculate a lot about it on irc for a few days
[15:49] <Laurenceb> lulz
[15:49] <russss> (and what difference there is doesn't ultimately matter I guess.)
[15:50] <edmoore> if there's some contaminant to get it started then it'll eat through any lining
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[15:51] <Laurenceb> apparently emdrive works, so reaction engines skylon is dead on arrival
[15:51] <Laurenceb> ^ see I can troll too :D
[15:51] <edmoore> we've had stainless steel catch fire a couple of times because of a small deposit of grease or machining oil left in a part operating in a very oxygen rich environment
[15:51] <Laurenceb> gaseous oxygen?
[15:51] <edmoore> yep
[15:51] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:52] <Laurenceb> immersing CF in lox seems .. ambitious
[15:53] <edmoore> i guess, if there's an insufficient barrier layer
[15:53] <edmoore> nonburnite or whatever they call it
[15:53] <russss> reality distortion field
[15:54] <Laurenceb> hyperloop style
[15:54] <Laurenceb> hyperloop probably works if powered by emdrive
[15:55] <Laurenceb> or steorn orbo and some eestor caps, throw in some zano drones too
[15:55] <edmoore> anyway Laurenceb you probably have a dayjob or something
[15:55] <Laurenceb> lul
[15:55] <edmoore> can talk about engineering if that was every the point but of not, by for now
[15:55] <Laurenceb> too busy flying on virgin galactic
[15:58] <Laurenceb> wow even wikipedia is swallowing the snake oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_thruster
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[16:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Zs6jdy_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Zs6jdy_chase
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[16:29] <nik> Hi all
[16:29] <nik> I have a question for you
[16:31] <nik> I'm going to do a launch of a HAB but I don't know how much He I have to put inside my baloon
[16:32] <edmoore> http://predict.habhub.org/
[16:32] <nik> I have a manometer which measure pressure of cylinder
[16:33] <edmoore> click on 'use burst calculator' on the bottom right
[16:33] <edmoore> that will give you a number which is the neck lift of the balloon to get your target ascent rate of altitude
[16:33] <edmoore> and you usually fill until you achieve that neck lift
[16:34] <adamgreig> manometer is a bit of a different way to go about doing it
[16:34] <adamgreig> I guess I'm thinking of an old fashioned literal manometer rather than a gauge indicator
[16:35] <edmoore> i image the differential pressure vs lift is quite sensitive in a latex balloon
[16:35] <edmoore> not sure it's a road i'd particularly want to go down
[16:35] <adamgreig> he said to measure pressure of cylinder
[16:35] <edmoore> oh blimey
[16:35] <edmoore> that's quite the manometer
[16:35] <adamgreig> that was my reaction
[16:35] <edmoore> yes i assume just pressure sensor
[16:36] <edmoore> unless the manometer is filled with neutron star as the working fluid
[16:36] <adamgreig> 150m tall of mercury
[16:37] <nik> wait, we use a gauge indicator
[16:37] <edmoore> regardless, i don't think bottle pressure is the best way of doing it
[16:37] <nik> that display the pressure of cylinder
[16:38] <edmoore> you'd have to account for heat transfer to infer anything, and the thermal mass of the cylinder, and so on
[16:38] <edmoore> i would directly measure the balloon lift as described, or use a mass-flow meter to count how much helium you put in
[16:39] <nik> could you explain what exactly is the neck lift?
[16:40] <edmoore> so let's say the calculatro said you need a 'neck lift' of 2kg
[16:40] <edmoore> if you were to take your balloon and hang 2kg from it, it would just float
[16:40] <edmoore> if you attached 2.1kg it would sink, if you attached 1.9kg it would slowly rise
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[16:41] <edmoore> it's the lift (which is really a force with units of newtons but we use kg to keep it as a unit people are more familiar with) provided by the balloon
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[16:41] <edmoore> so let's say your payload, parachute, and everything else as a mass of 1.5kg, you need the neck lift to be a bit more than that for it to ascend. Exactly how much more is what that calculator calculates for you
[16:46] <nik> I obtained a neck lift of 2704 g
[16:47] <nik> but now I still don't know how much helium I have to put inside my balloon
[16:47] <adamgreig> the calcluator also says that
[16:47] <adamgreig> try http://habhub.org/calc
[16:47] <adamgreig> (same calculator, different interface, clearly shows you balloon fill volume)
[16:48] <nik> how I can measure the volume from the pressure?
[16:49] <adamgreig> you buy helium by volume
[16:49] <adamgreig> if you happen to know your cylinder contains 9m^3 at 200bar, then when it's at 100bar it contains 4.5m^3
[16:49] <adamgreig> but you can't just measure a pressure in the cylinder and know the volume, that depends on how big the cylinder is
[16:50] <edmoore> This is what we're saying
[16:50] <edmoore> Forget pressure
[16:50] <edmoore> It's not the answer to your proble
[16:50] <edmoore> Measure the balloon's lift
[16:51] <russss> (also doesn't apply to all gases as some liquefy at ambient temperatures)
[16:52] <edmoore> not He or H2 though
[16:58] <nik> so to fill correctly I can (ideally) create and hang a load of 2704g and I fill the balloon until I see it floating
[16:58] <nik> Is that correct?
[16:58] <russss> yes
[16:59] <russss> I'd expect 2700g would probably suffice.
[17:00] <nik> ok many thanks
[17:00] <edmoore> that's how almost all of us do it nik, it's about the simplest way to get close
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[17:16] <jakeio> Would a 4.5m/s ascent rate be OK?
[17:20] <edmoore> yep
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[18:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03S-17 after 0314 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S-17
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[18:47] <adamgreig> anyone used the si4460 in packet rx mode?
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[19:48] <Maxell> RevSpace is LoRa ready!! https://i.sigio.nl/337263c39885e56e4fcce8387801a75c.png
[19:48] <Maxell> Both pb0ahx and PE2BZ have been decoded!
[19:49] <M0RJX> cool
[19:49] <Maxell> What is the 44.0 ?
[19:49] <Maxell> It was 55.3 at PE2BZ
[19:49] <M0RJX> Tell him to turn the heating off
[19:50] <M0RJX> daveake, has been working on version 1.7 which is more likely to get your packets to habitat
[19:50] <Maxell> haha M0RJX temprature?
[19:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AFB_STN_tracker_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AFB_STN_tracker_chase
[19:55] <Maxell> https://i.sigio.nl/46d44e3ad2647441da3bb1303c9c6e58.png PE2BZ :-)
[20:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HERMES1 after 03a day silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HERMES1
[20:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AFB_STN_chase_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AFB_STN_chase_chase
[20:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AFB_STN_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AFB_STN_chase
[20:13] <bertrik> we'll keep the gateway software updated from github
[20:16] Nick change: pb0ahx -> PB0AHX-weg
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[20:37] <jakeio> Is it possible to change the wiringPi config in the lora gateway to DIO0 -> 22 and DIO5 as standard.
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[20:39] <mfa298> jakeio: You can change the pin mappings in the config.
[20:39] <jakeio> Oh, really, splendid!
[20:39] <mfa298> I'd assume the default config is matching the board Upu sells
[20:40] <jakeio> Ah, I see.
[20:40] <jakeio> Why are only DIO0 and DIO5 used, rather than say, DIO0 and DIO1?
[20:41] <mfa298> There's a DIO0_0 and DIO5_0 setting (and similar _1 settings) which I've assumed are the pin mappings (as that's what they seem to match)
[20:42] <mfa298> I assume they're the only ones needed for the GW, if you look at the datasheet it'll probably tell you what the other DIO pins can be used for.
[20:42] <mfa298> I've not looked at the lora modules in detail, but I'd assume the dio0 and dio5 pins are signalling things like packet ready to receive and/or transmission done.
[20:43] <jakeio> Right, I'll just go and attach my DIO5, as I've not yet used it!
[20:44] <PE2BZ> M0RJX my Pi is running 50 degrees ? Wow...
[20:44] <daveake> The various DIO pins have different functions depending on a mapping register
[20:45] <daveake> so DIO0 can be "packet received" or "packet sent" for example
[20:45] <daveake> I used DIO5 for "mode changed"
[20:45] <bertrik> before I got the pin config right, I was wondering if there could be some kind of self-test routine built in the software
[20:45] <daveake> though you can just wait a few ms
[20:45] <daveake> (or some delay can't remember what)
[20:45] <bertrik> e.g. read a known version number from a certain register over spi
[20:46] <daveake> bertrik yeah dunno. it would need to not transmit in case an lna is connected
[20:46] <daveake> It's something I've been meaning to look at
[20:46] <bertrik> and cause a pin to go high in software and verify that from the pi side to make sure DIOs are confiured correctly
[20:46] <daveake> ofc the pins could be connected to other h/w which could confuse things
[20:46] <daveake> (pi pins)
[20:48] <bertrik> daveake: most of my confusion came from the slot numbering, pictures on your webpage showed 1 and 2, my shield has 0 and 1 :)
[20:48] <jakeio> daveake, is it possible to have just one module and call it the second module.
[20:49] <jakeio> The DIO mapping works better that way.
[20:49] <daveake> Yeah that's an old blog page
[20:49] <daveake> Anthony kept changing the h/w quicker than I could keep up :)
[20:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[20:50] <daveake> jakeio don't understand you
[20:50] <jakeio> Well, as the gateway works for 2 modules, can I use just one module but have it use the "2nd module" DIO mappings?
[20:50] <daveake> Right
[20:51] <daveake> So the Pi SPI bus can select 1 of 2 SPI devices
[20:51] <daveake> via pins called CE0 and CE1
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[20:51] <daveake> Hence CE0 and CE1 labels on the board
[20:51] <daveake> So those in the config are devices 0 and 1
[20:52] <daveake> You can populate either or both
[20:52] <jakeio> OK, well, that means I need to redefine the pin mappings, OK, not a problem.
[20:52] <jakeio> Thanks once again!
[20:52] <daveake> and you configure whatever you're using and, if that's only one of them, disable the other one
[20:52] <daveake> Upu's board has the DIO0/5 pins labelled
[20:53] <daveake> so anyone setting up just needs to read what the board says and configure the s/w accordingly
[20:53] <jakeio> I'm just wanting to test the lora-gateway with my image sending, as I'm sooo paranoid!
[20:53] <daveake> yes, you should
[20:53] <bertrik> we're running the shield with a pi zero now
[20:53] <daveake> Upu has a pi zero LoRa board coming
[20:54] <daveake> One module, configurable for CE0 or CE1
[20:54] <Upu> true : https://www.dropbox.com/s/7n3p5ojurmyxwyb/2016-09-01%2014.54.36.jpg?dl=0
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[20:54] <daveake> Note label for writing 434 or 868 :)
[20:55] <amell> who, me? :)
[20:55] <daveake> No anyone
[20:55] <daveake> You just turned up at exactly the right moment :)
[20:55] <amell> just checked and labels are still there
[20:56] <amell> and no. i still havnt revised for the foundation.
[20:56] <amell> forgot to take the book on holiday with me
[20:56] <mfa298> you need to revise for the foundation ?
[20:56] <amell> apparently.... ;)
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[21:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DBTEST - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DBTEST
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[21:27] <M0RJX> PE2BZ, you need to get a fan on that baby
[21:28] <M0RJX> aadamson, see pm
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[21:34] <bertrik> I'm quite happy that the lora shield installation at the hackerspace went smooth tonight and we got an incoming signal immediately :)
[21:40] <jakeio> What's the wiring pi pin for GPIO22?
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[21:56] <jakeio> Anyone know why I might be getting no SSDV packets remaining?
[21:56] <jakeio> Or even, "No free SSDV packets."
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[22:28] <mfa298> jakeio: try 'gpio readall' on the pi that gives a useful display with the various pin numbers
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[22:29] <jakeio> mfa298, I've got it to receive properly, it's just not uploading.
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[22:41] <jakeio> Yeah, definitely not uploading.
[22:42] <mfa298> which/whos version of the gateway are you running
[22:44] <jakeio> 1.6
[22:45] <jakeio> Oh.
[22:45] <jakeio> Is that the one with the upload bug?
[22:45] <jakeio> Downloaded direct from PiInTheSky github.
[22:46] <mfa298> I'm not aware of the pits version having upload issues,
[22:46] <jakeio> Right, then this is odd.
[22:46] <jakeio> It's not uploading telem or SSDV.
[22:47] <mfa298> if you git cloned it you can see the log with 'git log' which will show the the various change messages
[22:48] <jakeio> OK.
[22:48] <jakeio> Lots of commits by rharrison.
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[22:49] <mfa298> hmmm, I wonder if that does have the bad upload version.
[22:49] <jakeio> I will download directly from rharrison's github.
[22:50] <mfa298> I've not really used the lora gateway yet, if I can get an antenna sorted in time I should be able to test it out tomorrow
[22:51] <mfa298> I've also got a copy of rharrison's one git@github.com:rharrison/lora-gateway.git
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[23:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IV3SRD-11 after 038 hours silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IV3SRD-11
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[23:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BALLOONOLO-7 after 034 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BALLOONOLO-7
[23:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BALLOONOLO-7_LORA after 033 days silence - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BALLOONOLO-7_LORA
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[23:18] <jakeio> OK, not uploading still on rharrison's one.
[23:31] <jakeio> I'm going to sleep now.
[23:31] <jakeio> Hopefully someone will be able to help in the morning! :P
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[23:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BALLOONOLO-CHASE_CAR - 12https://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BALLOONOLO-CHASE_CAR
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[00:00] --- Sat Sep 3 2016