highaltitude.log.20160607

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[01:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ria-20a_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ria-20a_chase
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[02:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VE5AA-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE5AA-11
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[04:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP9UOB after 0324 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9UOB
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[05:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03W7QO-9 after 0312 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W7QO-9
[05:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HILCOX after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HILCOX
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[05:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP9UOB-10 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9UOB-10
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[06:08] <PE2BZ> !flights
[06:08] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03PICO-25 144.251 MHz CTSTIA32/1000 10(0b32), 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
[06:08] <PE2BZ> !whereis PICO-25
[06:08] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: I haven't got a clue
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[06:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ5FNQ_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ5FNQ_chase
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[06:40] <M0NRD> HILCOX is 434.651 not .621 as he posted!!
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[06:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[07:09] <G0WXI> !dial hilcox
[07:09] <SpacenearUS> 03G0WXI: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[07:09] <G0WXI> !flights
[07:09] <SpacenearUS> 03G0WXI: Current flights: 03PICO-25 144.251 MHz CTSTIA32/1000 10(0b32), 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
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[07:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ5NWI_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ5NWI_chase
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[08:02] <AndyEsser> was reading my elon musk book more last night (couldn't sleep until like 4am)
[08:02] <AndyEsser> in what bit he mentions that the first prototype/design for dragon was just Musk and "some High Altitude Balloon guys from the UK"
[08:04] <gonzo_> best all start applying for IP !
[08:16] <AndyEsser> emfcamp wiki no longer mentions HABville?
[08:28] <russss> oh that bloody list
[08:28] <russss> there's a bug
[08:28] <AndyEsser> sorry....
[08:28] <AndyEsser> :P
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[08:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CT2JVS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CT2JVS
[08:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03yyyyyy_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=yyyyyy_chase
[08:50] <AndyEsser> russss: prices are about £100-£120 for EMF aren't tey?
[08:50] <russss> yes, tickets are now about £120
[08:50] <AndyEsser> ta
[08:57] <craag> AndyEsser: I assume you found https://wiki.emfcamp.org/wiki/Village:HABville
[08:58] <AndyEsser> craag: not today I hadn't - I remember seeing it - but a mate of mine is now interesting in coming, so linked him the villages page and noticed that HABville wasn't mentioned
[08:58] <AndyEsser> ta for link
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[09:08] <gonzo_> I am on the button to get another ticket, as my daughter is coming along
[09:11] <AndyEsser> I have a reminder in my phone already :)
[09:13] <gonzo_> (when I say that, it means that there is a smartphone, with a reminder postit note stuck to it)
[09:14] <AndyEsser> haha
[09:14] <gonzo_> though the best has to be the daughter using here kindle. As a bookmark in apaper book. Class!
[09:14] <gonzo_> her
[09:15] <AndyEsser> lol
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[11:00] <Vaizki> that reminds me I somehow managed to not read Into the Black all the way through.. need to pick it up again
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[11:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0NLO_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0NLO_chase
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[13:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03W7QO-7 after 039 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W7QO-7
[13:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Is anybody aware why on the Wiki it says the dl-fldigi Binaries are unavilable ? They appear to go to the expected links
[13:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SQ5FNQ-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ5FNQ-11
[13:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> If no response I'm removing it then as there is apost on RSGB FB page asking for listners for the BARNABY flight later this week.
[13:39] <craag> where is this on the wiki Geoff-G8DHE-M ?
[13:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I've just removed it https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dl-fldigi#version_31
[13:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It looks like a very old change left in and forgotten about
[13:42] <craag> Hmm history shows that it was present after the last change by Upu, but not before, however it doesn't turn up in the diffs
[13:43] <craag> Ok it does, I wasn't selecting them properly.
[13:43] <craag> good work Geoff-G8DHE-M :)
[13:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Well that was August last year not heard of problems since then!
[13:44] <PE2BZ> !flights
[13:44] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03PICO-25 144.251 MHz CTSTIA32/1000 10(0b32), 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
[13:44] <craag> It might have been an outage on github hosting or something.
[13:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Quite possible!
[13:44] <craag> if people used change descriptions then we might know ;)
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[13:52] <AndreeeCZ> hi! I'm all new to hab, i haven't even started building anything, i'm in the 'hey this looks pretty interesting' phase
[13:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup but its so easy to miss that field when your busy looking at the text, needs a reminder before saving about it! I'm as bad as everyone else ;-)
[13:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Well you've hit on the right place! Have you found the Wiki yet ?
[13:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> https://ukhas.org.uk/start
[13:53] <AndreeeCZ> So i'l start off by asking a stupid question: if the baloon expands as it gets higher, why not attach a valve to the baloon and release some of the air when the alt is too high?
[13:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> That is possible if you want your equipment to float out of range with expensive cameras etc aboard it ;-)
[13:55] <AndreeeCZ> if i use expendable equipment, how high could one get?
[13:55] <craag> !wiki records
[13:55] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Wiki page 03uk_records (general) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/general:uk_records
[13:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> There are two main types of flight
[13:55] <mfa298> that's likely to depend on balloon choice and payload weight
[13:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Up/Burst/Down and then Float
[13:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Up?Burst/Down brings the equiopment back to hopefully a good landing
[13:56] <mfa298> letting out gas probably won't let you get much higher, as the gas escapes you'll lose bouyancy so it'll float or start coming down
[13:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Float means you might float off around the world for a circumnavigation or two or more!
[13:56] <AndreeeCZ> by Float you mean 'stay at the same altitude for a long time' ?
[13:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yes thAT'S THE IDEA
[13:57] <AndreeeCZ> hmm, i see
[13:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Like this http://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=4&qm=All&f=UBSEDS15&q=UBSEDS15
[13:57] <AndreeeCZ> how can i track my baloon if it's 2kkm away from me?
[13:58] <AndreeeCZ> or - on the other side of the planet (jesus, are we talking real here?)
[13:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> By using a radio transmitter with a range or a network of stations like the UK tracking network or APRS
[13:58] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, so this is an actual baloon, right?
[13:58] <mfa298> AndreeeCZ: most use some sort of radio, ISM bands in the UK and some of europe, APRS is common in the USA
[13:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> That's what the UKHAS network is about or the APRS amateur raio network
[13:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> radio*
[13:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Often a combination of both methods works well along with log back filling
[13:59] <AndreeeCZ> i'm astounded
[14:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> B64 has the record with 10 circumnavigations
[14:00] <AndreeeCZ> and then?
[14:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> and then what ? B-64 flight http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/B-64_20140712/index.php?ind=1
[14:01] <mfa298> with B64 the battery gave up so it no longer sent position data
[14:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It was both battery and solar powered but the battery eventually died
[14:02] <mfa298> the balloons that manage longer floats and potentially circumnavigation tend to be very light payloads (10-15g)
[14:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> and on quite small balloons normally floating around 8-15Kms high
[14:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Up/Burst/Down flights tend to go up to 20-44Kms high
[14:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> This recent one went to 41+Kms http://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=10&qm=All&f=PI434&q=PI434
[14:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Actually thats a couple of flights under the same callsign!
[14:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Details of the UBSEDS15 balloon etc http://www.bristol-seds.co.uk/hab/flight/2016/04/30/ubseds15.html
[14:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Another good source of info and details is http://www.daveakerman.com/
[14:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Live flight images appear here - its full of test images at present http://ssdv.habhub.org/
[14:13] <daveake> non-test flight image http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Cjaear8WEAA1ENN-768x580.jpg
[14:14] <AndyEsser> daveake: would be a fairly impressive test otherwise :P
[14:15] <daveake> Yeah, this hill isn't that high ...
[14:15] <AndyEsser> bit of a trek
[14:16] <daveake> towards the stars
[14:28] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I thinkhe has a lot of reading in front of him!
[14:29] Nick change: lz1dev_ -> lz1dev
[14:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG5CA-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5CA-11
[14:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K5UTD-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K5UTD-11
[15:26] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, sry had to afk momentarily
[15:26] <AndreeeCZ> thanks for the info
[15:27] <AndreeeCZ> i'll read all the links you gave me
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[15:35] <astrobiologist> Someone just rang me on 0208 816 2688 asking about UKHAS asking about balloon guidance systems
[15:36] <astrobiologist> They just rang me back a 2nd time - never got his name (both times the signal to my mobile was iffy)
[15:36] <astrobiologist> The 2nd time I got as far as explaining that I wasn't UKHAS and nor did UKHAS have a telephone number as such. The mystery caller was asking about "balloon guidance systems". I explained that there was no such thing, and the closest analogy was the prediction websites (which they claimed to already use) and Google Loon, changing altitude to get the winds in the correct direction as required. Then I lost the signal again.
[15:37] <astrobiologist> Odd how they got my lab number - was this from someone on this list?
[15:38] <daveake> No idea, but I just googled that number and found you very quickly in a UKHAS group post
[15:38] <fsphil> your number's all over the net
[15:39] <astrobiologist> it's my work number, not a secret, so that's fine.
[15:40] <mattbrejza> chances are theyre not on irc or the list if they resorted to phoning you
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[15:41] <astrobiologist> I wouldn't have thought any of those ukhas posts would have any way have painted me in an authorative light hence a bit odd
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[15:45] <daveake> Possibly just a result of minimal research then :)
[15:46] <daveake> I suspect that most of the emails are get are from when someone does a search and something I've done is near the top of the list
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[15:50] <AndreeeCZ> i need a baloon :-P
[15:51] <AndyEsser> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[15:51] <AndyEsser> ^
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[15:59] <AndreeeCZ> what about this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ex-MOD-Meteorological-200g-TOTEX-Balloon-High-Altitude-Weather-/151769072630?hash=item23562443f6:g:2BYAAOSwBLlVc-S-
[15:59] <AndreeeCZ> what is the rule of thumb, regarding the weight/size of the baloon and how high it can reach or what payload can it carry?
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[16:00] <mfa298> AndreeeCZ: there's a calculator http://habhub.org/calc
[16:00] <AndreeeCZ> oh wow
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[16:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> There is also a calculator at the bottom of the page for the link to the balloons
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[16:05] <AndreeeCZ> so, um. Is it wise to set a goal for my first baloon mission as gettting as high as possible, taking pics along the way, saving on sdcard and then finding the baloon upon return?
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[16:09] <diyaricl> hi we're a bunch of students from imperial college launching a balloon, and we're wondering if you guys would be kind and help us track it, and if so, what information do you need from us. Thanks
[16:10] <diyaricl> If the weather allows we'll launch our payload this monday the 13th from a site in cambridge
[16:10] <mfa298> diyaricl: when and where you're launching, how you're sending the data
[16:11] <diyaricl> sending our data by radio through a PiTS & LoRa modules
[16:11] <diyaricl> pits uses RTTY
[16:11] <mfa298> have a look on the mailing list and see what others post (announcments from Dave Akerman and Steve Aerospace (Randall) probably give the best examples)
[16:13] <mfa298> also make sure you've done payload and flight docs (as should be described in the PITS documentation) and get the flightdoc approved (ask on #habhub with the flightdoc id)
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[16:20] <daveake> http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/index.php?id=getting-on-the-map
[16:21] <diyaricl> Alrighty, looking at it now
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[16:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> AndreeeCZ, Thats a reasonable target as a minimum, depends on what skills you have currently, the hobby is muti-disciplinary, so Electronics, Radio, Computing, Photography, and practical skills like tieing knots and building payload boxes can all come into it!
[16:25] <AndreeeCZ> i am fairly confident in all of those, except radio
[16:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Perhaps start by getting a simple tracking setup going, and listening in and commenting in here is a good start whilst thinking about what you can achieve
[16:25] <AndreeeCZ> i love multi-disciplinary
[16:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> have a ,ook at a few of the projects that have been done
[16:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you can cut corners by buying hardware to some degree, but you learn less that way!
[16:29] <astrobiologist> Better to ask questions on IRC than to randomly ring people up ;-)
[16:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> But putting your address and work phone numbers is rather like asking to be contacted!
[16:34] <diyaricl> How will the parser configuration work, will you send us back the data as you've recieved it?
[16:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> The data is saved in the Habitat database, and can be accessed directly however you want almost
[16:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://habitat.habhub.org/ept/
[16:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Its also put across live the tracker site and displayed live under the balloons flight data
[16:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> then there are sites like http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/ who plot the data in real time as well
[16:38] <astrobiologist> I would love to be rung up about astrobiology and aerobiology a la http://www.h-a-b.net but beyond that it is a bit puzzling
[16:38] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, so far i'm thinking about doing orange pi + webcam + gps + radio + batter
[16:38] <AndreeeCZ> y
[16:39] <diyaricl> Ah thats very useful
[16:39] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, is this reasonable?
[16:39] <mattbrejza> astrobiologist: ever been rung up by a bio-astrologist?
[16:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you have me with "orange pi" what is that ?
[16:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> have you seen the PITS board and system ?
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[16:41] <mattbrejza> orange pi = raspberry pi clone persumably
[16:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> but the one part that you will need to put together yourself is the local tracking radio/aerial/software hence my suggestion of starting there and practice some tracking whilst putting the payload system together
[16:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah yes Orange Pi!
[16:43] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> hadn't come across it before
[16:43] <Lunar_Lander> thanks to Upu for very fast order processing :)
[16:44] <mfa298> diyaricl: it's highly recommended that you try and receive and upload data as well for your flight, it's especially important at the start and end as you might be the only ones hearing the payload
[16:45] <mfa298> if you're also on here during the flight you can often get useful directions to help you locate the payload (and sometimes suggetions of a good pub in the local area)
[16:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> AndreeeCZ, see http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/
[16:46] <daveake> fish and chip shop
[16:46] <daveake> (often when things have gone wrong)
[16:46] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, i was thinkg of a more DIY approach
[16:46] <diyaricl> We will be chasing with our yagi-antenna, but in the case we lose LOS it would be great to have help
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[16:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> AndreeeCZ, By all means! Its rather encouraged in here, but never quite sure of skill sets at the first contact ;-)
[16:48] <Laurenceb__> https://www.instagram.com/p/BGVXv41F8SW/
[16:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> right AFK for some food back in a bit
[16:48] <AndreeeCZ> GeekShadow, sure
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[16:54] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, on a side note, how safe it is? planes etc
[16:54] <AndreeeCZ> obviously i'm not going to launch near airport etc
[16:55] <astrobiologist> mattbrejza not rung up but I had Kosmica (arts conference) and then UKHAS ask me to give unsolicited conference presentations after having heard of my work
[17:03] <astrobiologist> bye for now
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[17:11] <AndreeeCZ> how do i know how much He do i fill in the baloon?
[17:13] <daveake> There's a calculator (google "CUSF Burst Calculator")
[17:14] <daveake> You tell it what payload weight and size of balloon, enter 5m/s as the ascent rate, and it'll tell you how much gas
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[17:14] <AndreeeCZ> habhub.org/calc/ doesnt do this, right?
[17:14] <daveake> same thing
[17:15] <daveake> The amount is generally measured by checking the "neck lift" which is how much the balloon pulls vertically
[17:15] <AndreeeCZ> i dont see how much cas
[17:15] <daveake> volume
[17:15] <AndreeeCZ> i got 1000 litres
[17:15] <daveake> ok
[17:15] <AndreeeCZ> but that's riddiculous.. isn't it?
[17:15] <daveake> no
[17:16] <AndreeeCZ> i'd need to seel my liver to get that much He
[17:16] <daveake> no
[17:17] <daveake> Typical cylinders contain around 3-5 cubic metres, compressed of course
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[17:22] <AndreeeCZ> i read 1m3 of pure He costs 155 eur, is this about right?
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> that seems a bit steep
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Helium-Balloon-Gas-cylinder-20L-size-200-Bar-Fill-NO-ROLLING-RENTAL-CHARGES-/322122527979
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> quote it as 140 euro or so for the gas, for 3-4m^3
[17:31] <daveake> You don't need pure He
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> I've noted in the past that mostly pure methane is 1 pound per kilo of lift or so.
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> and comes out a tap in the kitchen.
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> (or could, in many cases)
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> yes, it has half the lift
[17:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD0AWK-8 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-8
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[17:42] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/YoS4ZVu - the future of travel.
[17:42] <AndreeeCZ> SpeedEvil, i'm afraid that due to the weight of the tank i'd pay a lot for the shipping
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> AndreeeCZ: yes, I wasn't suggesting to get it.
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> Merely commenting on the helium price
[17:42] <AndreeeCZ> right ok
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[18:00] <n2icz> Hi. Extreme newbie here. Interested in tracking first then possibly building a pico balloon payload. Got an idea on how to track from Habhub. Question. Are these experimenters always floating a GPS? Can a pico balloon be tracked via Habhub with just the RRTY or DominoEX transmission?
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> No.
[18:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup over UK and europe, outside often switch to APRS.
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> You need to add GPS, or you just get an indication the balloon is in the air
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> GPS is cheap
[18:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yes all balloons need a GPS receiver, we don't normally DF the flight itself
[18:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> DF is only used if your unable to get co-ords from the final landing location.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> And DF is only a 'it might be a fun day out, and we might even find it' type thing.
[18:04] <n2icz> Ah... I see. Makes sense. So essentially, a small Arduino board with a GPS and Radiometrix TX module would suffice as a payload?
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> indeed, along with a suitable power supply, batteries, solar panel regulator etc.
[18:10] <n2icz> I've been searching around and have not been able to find a "cohesive" project outlining both the GPS and TX module. Anywhere you can point me? I've read M0UPU's tutorial on how to TX RTTY and DominoEX, just need the missing piece on how to setup a GPS with all that.
[18:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://www.habduino.org/
[18:12] <n2icz> And there it is...floating in space. Thank you. :)
[18:12] <AndreeeCZ> okaaay sooo, the 1000 liters that i need is after decompression, right?
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> The bottle doesn't tend to float well.
[18:12] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes, its a bit of a problem holding it in your hands ;-)
[18:16] <AndreeeCZ> but if i understand correctly, the bottle vendors list the amount post-compression?
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[18:16] <AndreeeCZ> (if not, then the prices of He are completely of the roof here in cz)
[18:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Prices do vary but yes the volume of gas is at STP.
[18:18] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, so i do not understand correctly
[18:19] <mfa298> n2icz: part of the aim in those guides is to help you get started then leave you to glue the various bits together with whatever sensors you need
[18:19] <mfa298> the learning process can be very rewarding (if you've not done much programming before) and helps you understand how it's working (which makes it easier to fix when it doen't quite work)
[18:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> AndreeeCZ, No sorry I mislead you there, didn't fully read what was written, the tank volume is quoted.
[18:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I thought you were reffering to the volume from the calculator!
[18:20] <AndreeeCZ> so in order for me to know the final amount (at STP - which was a new term for me there! :) ) i need to know at what pressure the bottle is
[18:21] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes
[18:21] <AndreeeCZ> ok, i'll ask the shop
[18:21] <AndreeeCZ> thanks for being so supportive
[18:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> No problems! I'm a tracker and image processor normally, haven't yet got round to flying one myself !
[18:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/
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[18:25] <daveake> AndreeeCZ: The supplier should be able to tell you the volume of He at room pressure/temperature
[18:25] <AndreeeCZ> yup, just wrote him an email
[18:25] <AndreeeCZ> he doesn't even list the pressure, so when he says that the bottle is 50L, that info is quite irrelevant
[18:26] <daveake> Here, a small one is 1.8m^3 and a large one 9.1
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[18:37] <n2icz> mfa298. (Sorry, got tied up for a moment) Yes indeed. The guides are very helpful and I can see how they can be used as a bechmark during the learning process. Thank you.
[18:39] <n2icz> I was looking at the HABuino. Could that be flown with a smaller foil balloon as a floater (at the risk of losing it of course). Not that I would want that. What are the "party balloon" guys using as a payload?
[18:40] <mfa298> the party balloon payloads tend to be fairly small custom made boards.
[18:40] <mfa298> some of them down to 10-15g
[18:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Typical one here http://www.bristol-seds.co.uk/hab/flight/2016/04/30/ubseds15.html
[18:41] <mfa298> depending on where you are you might want to look at aprs as well as (or instead of rtty/dominoex/contessia)
[18:45] <AndreeeCZ> ok. I think i'm going to go with a prebuilt radio module since i know nothing about that
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[18:48] <AndreeeCZ> if, for example, i get something like this
[18:48] <AndreeeCZ> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/433-Mhz-transmitter-Receiver-Pair-Radio-Module-Arduino-Raspberry-PI-/182112332829?hash=item2a66bdac1d:g:v-EAAOSwWnFWAYDO
[18:48] <AndreeeCZ> how far will that reach?
[18:49] <AndreeeCZ> approx, of course
[18:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Not very far and the drift badly!!!
[18:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> An american station tried one last year with little success!
[18:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> there designed for local RC operation over a few feet.
[18:50] <mfa298> the simple starting point is something like the NTX2b and generating 50baud rtty. then using an SSB receiver (ham radio/ sdr dongle) to receive it and pipe the audio to dl-fldigi to decode it
[18:51] <AndreeeCZ> Narrow Band FM Transmitter
[18:51] <AndreeeCZ> riight
[18:52] Action: AndreeeCZ needs to afk, bb in 30mins
[18:52] <mfa298> the way we use the ntx2b is to just feed two voltage levels into it which just shifts the carrier frequency up and down
[18:53] <AndreeeCZ> right, generating a binary signal
[18:53] <AndreeeCZ> k i must afk now, brb
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[18:56] <n2icz> Lots of options... Thank you all so much. This is THE place to ask.
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[19:19] <n2icz> mfa298 The NTX2b is indeed a good starting point to learn and probably what I'll do to test.. As others have said, one still needs the gps to track where it is.
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[19:22] <AndreeeCZ> mfa298, "two voltage levels" as in 3v/0v ?
[19:23] <fsphil> potentially, though on the ntx2 you'll find that produces too large a frequency shift for what we typically use here
[19:23] <mfa298> AndreeeCZ: with the ntx2b with rtty much smaller changes normally, 1V on the pin gives 2KHz shift (from memory), normally people go for somthing like 300Hz shift (so ~1/6 v change)
[19:24] <AndreeeCZ> i see, got it
[19:24] <AndreeeCZ> a different q: when i begin filling the baloon with He, how do i tell how much i have already filled?
[19:25] <mfa298> you can do that either with pwm or using a resistor divider normally
[19:25] <AndreeeCZ> i'll go for resistor div
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[19:45] <Vaizki> good call...
[19:45] <mfa298> thats where the neck lift value is used, you have that weight (usually made up from the fill tube and some added weight - container of water) attached the balloon and then fill until it just becomes bouyant
[19:47] <Vaizki> AndreeeCZ try to go with some bias voltage even for 0... so not 0V but for example 1V and 1.3V
[19:47] <Vaizki> gave cleaner signal in my quick tests
[19:48] <Vaizki> Gatwick is closed or something, UK does not want me to arrive
[19:49] <AndreeeCZ> mfa298, got it!
[19:49] <mfa298> there's a guide for ntx2 and resistor dividers at https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2?rev=1399496254
[19:49] <AndreeeCZ> is this one similar? http://www.gmelectronic.com/aurel-tx-saw-mid433-s-z-rfm-433-92mhz-p757-192
[19:49] <AndreeeCZ> (and much cheaper)
[19:49] <mfa298> the current version of that page uses pwm
[19:51] <Vaizki> not the same
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[19:51] <Vaizki> That looks like a OOK cheapo
[19:52] <AndreeeCZ> by OOK you mean.. ?
[19:52] <Vaizki> On off keying
[19:52] <mfa298> the other (possibly cheaper way) is to look at one of the programmeable modules (e.g. rfm69), which you said commands to to generate rtty (but won't do other modes like DominoEX)
[19:53] <mfa298> s/said/send/
[19:53] <fsphil> this is important. don't go for the cheapest :p
[19:53] <Vaizki> ntx2b is also nice and stable in cold temps
[19:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Another point in all this is you need to remember that the batteries have to work at low temperatures as well!
[19:55] <AndreeeCZ> mfa298, like this one? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12775
[19:56] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, yeah i'll get to the batteries at some point later, but i'm aware of that
[19:56] <mfa298> AndreeeCZ: depending on where you are in the world, you might also need to look at what you can use legally
[19:56] <AndreeeCZ> mfa298, i'll deal with that much later.. :)
[19:57] <Oddstr13> on the topic of cheap, got any suggestions on GPS modules for car nodes? :P
[19:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> That is a 915MHz RFM board
[19:57] <Oddstr13> preferrably something hand-solderable :P
[19:57] <Vaizki> You really want 434MHz
[19:57] <mfa298> AndreeeCZ: there are different bands of things like the RFM69, what you can use will depend on where you are (915MHz is ISM in the USA but not EU).
[19:58] <AndreeeCZ> right, i see
[19:58] <mfa298> I'm not sure anyone has flown an RFM69 doing rtty yet, but I think it's possible.
[19:58] <Vaizki> Oddstr13, car node for what?
[19:58] <Oddstr13> Vaizki: UKHASnet :)
[19:58] <mfa298> previously people used the RFM22 but that was very drifty and prone to breaking - the same could be true for the rfm69
[19:59] <AndreeeCZ> so i guess you say that i should stick to the ntx2b or try the cheapo module
[19:59] <AndreeeCZ> what does drifty mean?
[19:59] <Oddstr13> frequency drifts (changes over time)
[19:59] <mfa298> *if* you can use 434MHz legally where you are stick to the NTX2B initially if you want rtty
[19:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> The frequency control is poor and drifts badly with temperatrure
[19:59] <AndreeeCZ> i see
[20:00] <mfa298> this is why the what's legal for where you are is important.
[20:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> so going from 25c to -40c will have your trackers doing there nuts!
[20:01] <Oddstr13> Vaizki: ordered my dirty boards the other day, for AVR & ESP nodes, also some proto boards, hope they turn out okay :D
[20:01] <Oddstr13> so, now is time to start thinking about add-on boards and code :)
[20:02] <AndreeeCZ> 432MHz – 438MHz is ISM here in CZ
[20:03] <AndreeeCZ> Geoff-G8DHE, i understand. I come from the audio world where analog synths used to drift in tuning a lot with regard to temp
[20:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup its not fun trying to track a signal drifting rapidly!
[20:03] <mfa298> you potentially also need to check it's allowed airborne (in the UK only parts of the ISM space can be used airborne). also look at power and duty cycle limits
[20:04] <mfa298> 432-438 seems quite large for the ISM band (I think in most places its ~1MHz wide not 6MHz)
[20:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> would agree it seems way to wide for ISM ...
[20:06] <Vaizki> Oddstr13, maybe search eBay for NEO-6M ardupilot
[20:07] <Vaizki> drone gps setups.. Cheap and some are in a weatherproof enclosure
[20:07] <AndreeeCZ> GeekShadow, mfa298 ok i'll look into it
[20:07] <AndreeeCZ> right, 433,05 – 434,79
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[20:08] <mfa298> that looks a bit more likely, I think that's the same as the UK
[20:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It is worldwide as well ;-)
[20:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> No take that back
[20:09] <mfa298> however in the UK not all of that is suitable for HAB (which may also be the same as well)
[20:09] <mfa298> should be all/most of Region 1
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[20:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yes was trying to remember my regions!
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[21:04] <daey> why is a GPS receiver considered to be a stratum 1 unit? Shouldnt the satelite already be a stratum 1 device?
[21:05] <daey> clock -> Satellite -> GPS Receiver
[21:08] <pjm> daey, no the satellite is the stratum-0 reference
[21:09] <pjm> the GPS rx/ntp solution is then the stratum-1 device since its receiving its timing direct from the reference
[21:09] <daey> pjm: yeah i figured, but i dont get why as the clock signal has to move through multiple communication pathes within the satellite. The satellite isnt the clock. it just has one and talks to it
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[21:11] <daey> pjm: would a pc connected directly to the satellite still be considered stratum 0?
[21:11] <pjm> no
[21:11] <pjm> stratum 0 is the defining time reference
[21:12] <pjm> and GPS satellites have Rb and Cs clocks on board so they are the 'clock'
[21:12] <daey> i just dont get what creates the 'cut'. if the transmitter is its own module, shouldnt it be stratum1 then?
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[21:13] <daey> how is the communication path satellite <--> transitter be different than transmitter <--> receiver
[21:13] <pjm> i dont think its at that level
[21:13] <pjm> but rather a system level
[21:14] <pjm> so the navstar constellation is one 'lump'
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[21:14] <pjm> and stuff that uses that as a primary timing solution is then stratum-1
[21:14] <daey> yeah maybe... doesnt make sense in my eyes but ..
[21:14] <russss> the definition of a stratum 1 server is "a server directly connected to a time source"
[21:14] <pjm> else u might say its not possible for a PC to be a stratum-1 server
[21:14] <russss> stratum 0 isn't defined in the spec as such
[21:15] <pjm> since its a software FLL etc that does the time tracking
[21:15] <pjm> and interfaces to an external rx etc
[21:15] <pjm> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol#Clock_strata
[21:17] <russss> that doesn't make it much clearer tbh ;)
[21:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03frank_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=frank_chase
[21:17] <russss> NTP defines the stratum in terms of NTP servers anyway
[21:17] <daey> pjm: yeah. to me the direct connection would be the internal connection to the atomic clock
[21:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03lasheka rice_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=lasheka%20rice_chase
[21:18] <russss> but a GPS receiver is as good a time source as those atomic clocks. There's basically no latency or jitter from a network perspective
[21:18] <daey> and stratum 0 would be the clock module itself. but i guess they think in bigger modules
[21:19] <daey> russss: oh i wasnt arguing the quality. just the definition as such kinda bothered me
[21:19] <russss> they literally don't care. The spec defines stratum 1 as "a server attached to a time source, such as a GPS receiver"
[21:20] <russss> so that's what it is. NTP stratum just exists to facilitate the protocol, rather than as some kind of scientific characterisation of time error (NTP has other ways of doing that anyhow)
[21:35] <zyp> isn't NTP stratum just a count of how many steps away from the time source itself you are?
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[21:45] <Upu> yep
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[21:47] <SpeedEvil> -1 = actually from Gallifrey
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[23:23] <Ian_> Hello Keren, You will be happy to hear that I'm not in Madrid this time at least . . . There are currently five colonies at Burcot ( BCT ), four of which are considered to be, in production. OK, on Thursday 16 June, I have an orchestral rehearsal at Hagley just after 1700, so would have to be away from Burcot by 1600, at the very latest. Normally, I conduct all my apiary inspections on a Saturday afternoon . . . What time would b
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[23:30] <fsphil> guessing wrong window :)
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[23:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL7AD-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL7AD-11
[23:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KI7DLP - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KI7DLP
[00:00] --- Wed Jun 8 2016