highaltitude.log.20160605

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[06:54] <PE2BZ> !flights
[06:54] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03VEGA-2 10(d4ea), 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
[06:54] <PE2BZ> !whereis VEGA-2
[06:54] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: I haven't got a clue
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[07:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Alexei_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Alexei_chase
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[07:55] <PE2BZ> Good morning. Anyone in the UK who can confirm the location of the P25 signal on 405.950 MHz ? Trying to find out if I can use those signals for propagation detection.
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[08:10] <edmoore> Could ask on #hamradio if you havent already
[08:11] <PE2BZ> edmoore thanks. Did not think about that...
[08:13] jeran (49f15452@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.241.84.82) joined #highaltitude.
[08:13] <jeran> hello to everyone
[08:14] <edmoore> Good morning jeran
[08:14] <DL1SGP> hi PE2BZ :) god morning all
[08:14] <jeran> How are you guys?
[08:15] <jeran> I'm looking for something very strange... well I am sure I will need it built but possibly someone can point me in the correct direction and of course I am willing to pay for what I need.
[08:16] <jeran> I'll describe it simply as it is the best way for me to say what I need and maybe you can at least tell me if it is possible or not
[08:17] <jeran> I need two small receivers that always keep their distance recorded. So imagine I have a pager like device and Bob has a pager like device. Our devices need only be concerned with each other. Somewhere either online or whatever, the distance between those pagers is recorded say every 30 secs.
[08:17] <PE2BZ> DL1SGP Hello to u 2
[08:17] <jeran> Simply distance is needed and that's it
[08:19] <jeran> Is this possible or would the distance be very limited due to Earth's curvature
[08:19] <Oddstr13> GPS with logging?
[08:19] <PE2BZ> jeran distance is the difference between 2 GPS locations. Would the receivers (with Internet connection) be able to receive GPS or is this inhouse solution ?
[08:20] <Oddstr13> most smartphones could probably do that with a custom app
[08:20] <jeran> It would be outdoor so yes, gps would be fine
[08:20] <mfa298> how accurate does the position/distance measurement need to be, gps isn't always that accurate by default
[08:21] <jeran> And this could work at any distance apart? Say I'm in the USA and Bob in Australia for example?
[08:21] <Oddstr13> yea
[08:21] <edmoore> jeran: yes
[08:21] <edmoore> it depends on how they communicate
[08:21] <jeran> I'd like it to be pretty accurate, 10 meters max maybe
[08:21] <edmoore> if across the world, i would use the internet or the mobile phone network
[08:21] <edmoore> gps is fine for that
[08:21] <edmoore> 10m is no problem
[08:22] <edmoore> so you could have a small gps receiver and a gsm tranceiver (for using the mobile phone network) and send a text message with the gps position every so often
[08:22] <jeran> Could a unit be made so it isn't on mobile phones?
[08:22] <edmoore> yes but you need to collect the information somewhere
[08:22] <jeran> edmoore that sounds great
[08:23] <jeran> wherever it collects would be fine
[08:23] <edmoore> where do you want to collect/display the distance between you an bob?
[08:23] <jeran> anywhere, it can even be retrieved later
[08:23] <edmoore> if you have an amateur radio license you could use APRS
[08:23] <jeran> Okay I know someone who does
[08:24] <edmoore> so APRS is sort of like a free text message/location service run by amateur radio enthusiasts
[08:24] <jeran> so you could have a small gps receiver and a gsm tranceiver (for using the mobile phone network) and send a text message with the gps position every so often
[08:24] <jeran> I like this idea^
[08:25] <jeran> do you mean one device would transmit and one receive?
[08:25] <edmoore> no both could do both
[08:25] <edmoore> if you use a text message you need to send the texts somewhere
[08:25] <jeran> oh ok sweet
[08:26] <jeran> Do you know someone who could build this?
[08:26] <edmoore> i would imagine you could have a server connected to the internet and perhaps using a service that makes sms messaging easy from software, like Twilio
[08:26] <edmoore> almost anyone in this channel *could* build this because it's very similar to the trackers we use for our balloons
[08:27] <jeran> okay or what if they text my number at an email like 5555551234@att.net for example?
[08:27] <mfa298> you could also use a wifi module if there's a wifi network nearby you can use (could be cheaper in the long run, bur harder to deploy)
[08:27] <mfa298> wifi instead of gsm that is
[08:27] <jeran> These will be on experimental flights would wifi work?
[08:28] <edmoore> no
[08:28] <edmoore> you need to be in wifi range
[08:28] <jeran> okay so what is best and max height is 20,000 ft
[08:28] <edmoore> which as you probably intuitively know is sort of within 50m of a base station
[08:28] <mfa298> if this is going on a balloon wifi and gsm are likely to have issues
[08:28] <edmoore> this is for a terrestrial aircraft?
[08:29] <jeran> yes
[08:29] <edmoore> which country are you in?
[08:29] <edmoore> this affects the options available to you with radio laws
[08:29] <edmoore> rtty on radio4 Right Now
[08:29] <jeran> I am in the US but the other device will be in Australia
[08:29] <edmoore> ok finished
[08:29] <edmoore> so in the US and Australia (correct me darkside) i believe you can use APRS airborne
[08:30] <mfa298> however you can't use APRS (or any Amateur radio) for comercial stuff.
[08:31] <edmoore> yes there is that
[08:31] <jeran> it's hobby
[08:31] <edmoore> i'd go for APRS then
[08:31] <edmoore> gps->aprs
[08:32] <jeran> that can be used in both locations?
[08:32] <edmoore> yes i think so
[08:33] <edmoore> Darkside_: can you use APRS in australia airborne?
[08:33] <jeran> Great- thanks so much btw you guys are so very helpful
[08:33] <Darkside_> edmoore: yes
[08:33] <Darkside_> no silly restrictions like in the UK
[08:33] <edmoore> there you go. jeran, Darkside_ is our resident pet australian amateur radio person
[08:33] <Darkside_> pff
[08:33] <jeran> lol
[08:33] <mfa298> someone needs to be suitably licensed to run the station but I think the same as edmoore that it can be used in both locations
[08:33] <Darkside_> pet australian
[08:33] <Darkside_> bugger off mate
[08:34] <Darkside_> :P
[08:34] <Darkside_> yes, that would require a standard or advanced amateur licence here in australia
[08:34] <jeran> So, what would you estimate the cost of the total package?
[08:34] <Darkside_> also our APRS network isn't as well developed as the US One
[08:34] <Darkside_> lots and lots of dead spots
[08:35] <jeran> ewwww thats no good. I think he is in the perth area
[08:35] <Darkside_> well
[08:35] <Darkside_> when its in the air it'd probably be ok
[08:35] <Darkside_> really depends on the use case
[08:36] <edmoore> jeran: there's not really an answer to that
[08:36] <edmoore> if you want to put it together yourself, a couple of hundred USD?
[08:36] <jeran> It is for use on drones basically
[08:36] <Darkside_> oh
[08:36] <edmoore> drones at 20,000ft?
[08:36] <mfa298> jeran: you should probably also look through the amateur radio licensing conditions to ensure your happy you're within the terms in there
[08:36] <edmoore> i thought you were restricted to 400ft
[08:36] <edmoore> in the US
[08:36] <Darkside_> same here in australia
[08:36] <jeran> We will be out in the ocean
[08:36] <Darkside_> ah
[08:36] <jeran> kinda breaking some rules
[08:36] <edmoore> you just said you'd be in perth
[08:36] <Darkside_> ok APRS is startingto sound like a better idea
[08:37] <Darkside_> argh
[08:37] <jeran> He is in Perth
[08:37] <edmoore> well, take your own aprs receiver
[08:37] <Darkside_> to sound like a *not* better idea
[08:37] <mfa298> jeran: how regularly do you need the position data?
[08:37] <jeran> 30 secs or min
[08:37] <Darkside_> mfa298: snap
[08:37] <Darkside_> ok 30 seconds is doable with APRS
[08:37] <edmoore> if you take your own receiver out on the boat then you should be fine, i think
[08:37] <Darkside_> but if the link range isnt that far, im sure you could do something with much better throughput
[08:37] <jeran> ok that's kinda the idea.
[08:38] <Darkside_> jeran: whats the required range?
[08:38] <Darkside_> (you might have mentioned this already)
[08:38] <jeran> from pillot to pilot or pilot to aircraft?
[08:39] <Darkside_> a key starting point for a design like this is a clear set of requirements
[08:39] <Darkside_> i dont know?
[08:39] <Darkside_> i dont know your use case for this
[08:39] <Darkside_> are you communicating air to ground? air to air?
[08:39] <Darkside_> both? neither?
[08:39] <jeran> So, I am launching an aircraft at sea in USA off the coast of Oregon
[08:39] <Darkside_> do you need bi-directional communication?
[08:39] <Darkside_> all this kind of stuff matters
[08:40] <jeran> We want to tranmit distamce only betweem two drones that are supposed to be in sync
[08:40] <Darkside_> ok, so it has to be a 2-way thing
[08:40] <jeran> We figure this will tell us how well synced they are
[08:40] <Darkside_> will there be an operator in the vicinity of the drone?
[08:40] <Darkside_> (legally, there should be one within visual range)
[08:40] <jeran> Yes, each of us have an aircraft
[08:41] <Darkside_> i would suggest something a bit more capable than APRS then
[08:41] <jeran> each also hhas control but the design is actually to have only one fly both
[08:41] <Darkside_> theres a lot of live telemetry systems for dtones around here
[08:41] <Darkside_> drones*
[08:41] <jeran> ok
[08:41] <Darkside_> urgh, lag in typing, sorry
[08:41] <Darkside_> im trying to remember the name of the telemetry systems that andrew tridgell developed..
[08:42] <Darkside_> http://ardupilot.org/copter/docs/common-sik-telemetry-radio.html
[08:42] <Darkside_> http://ardupilot.org/copter/docs/common-rfd900.html#common-rfd900
[08:42] <jeran> We just figured that if they called a central hub and say started at 8,000 mi we would hope that distance stayed close
[08:42] <Darkside_> this kind of stuff
[08:42] <jeran> ok super cool
[08:43] <Darkside_> this would require considerably software integration
[08:43] <Darkside_> considerable*
[08:43] <jeran> we were unsure if someone just could build a two box system that always trasmittted distance apart when turned on
[08:43] <Darkside_> but given there will be firmware for drone control
[08:44] <Darkside_> well the drone will have GPS, right?
[08:44] <jeran> we kind of want it separate from the aircraft systems
[08:44] <Darkside_> why?
[08:44] <jeran> yes, both do
[08:44] <Darkside_> you want to tell the position of the drones apart
[08:44] <Darkside_> use the drones positioning system to get the best figure for its position
[08:44] <Darkside_> it all comes down to testing of code
[08:44] <jeran> Because they are designed to stay linked
[08:45] <jeran> almost wanted a double check
[08:45] <Darkside_> linked via the internet i would expect
[08:45] <jeran> yes
[08:45] <jeran> like I said, even for review afterword
[08:45] <Darkside_> in which case there has to be a data connection between the drone andsome kind of internet connection
[08:45] <Darkside_> hence some kind of radio system
[08:46] <jeran> you mean drone to drone?
[08:46] <Darkside_> and what i linked is a radio system commonly used with ardupilot and other drone systems
[08:46] <Darkside_> could be?
[08:46] <Darkside_> could also be drone to ground
[08:46] <Darkside_> usually its drone to ground, for control
[08:46] <Darkside_> but its whatever its programmed to use it for
[08:46] <jeran> correct, but this system is designed to map two areas at once
[08:46] <Darkside_> im just saying, this is a link layer system you could use to put whatever dater you wwant across is
[08:47] <Darkside_> data*
[08:47] <jeran> Ok I get ya
[08:47] <Darkside_> i can really only give you help on the link layer, that is, something you can shove bits in to get them from A to B
[08:48] <Darkside_> how you get from B to C, and how you shovel those bits aroud nis up to your software
[08:48] <jeran> okay well you've been a ton of help
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[08:48] <jeran> I'll basically be flying a drone from 8,000 miles away
[08:49] <Darkside_> sure
[08:49] <Darkside_> i've seen andrew tridgell do this
[08:49] <Darkside_> in the middle of a conference talk
[08:49] <jeran> Sweet, a linked system as well?
[08:49] <Darkside_> im not really sure how he did it
[08:49] <Darkside_> but i expect he was tunneling data over a SSH connection or something
[08:50] <Darkside_> it was an ardupilot thing
[08:51] <jeran> Yes that's what we have. The pilot can take control if it gets unlinked but we also know when it returns home that we won't know exactly how perfectly synced they were so the hope was that they should remain equal distance apart
[08:51] <Darkside_> im finding the talk now
[08:51] <Darkside_> hold
[08:51] <jeran> k
[08:52] <pb0ahx_> !flights
[08:52] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx_: Current flights: 03VEGA-2 10(d4ea), 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
[08:53] <Darkside_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Twl2mQAh6g
[08:53] <Darkside_> its this one
[08:54] <Darkside_> he has his autopilot build a linux kernel while its flying
[08:54] <Darkside_> on the drone
[08:54] <Darkside_> which is kind of fun
[08:55] <jeran> awesome
[08:55] <jeran> thanks for the links darkside
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[08:55] <Darkside_> .. bye
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[08:56] <AndyEsser> Darkside_: you made his brain explode with info
[08:56] <AndyEsser> I do not foresee this venture going well
[08:57] <Darkside_> whoops
[08:58] <Darkside_> i mean, what he's trying to do is something thats certainky possible
[08:58] <Darkside_> it just sounds like he doesnt know the details
[08:58] <mfa298> it's so useful when all the useful information is given up front ..
[08:58] <mfa298> .. shame it didn't happen that way
[08:58] <Darkside_> statement of requirements
[08:59] <Darkside_> damn useful to have
[08:59] <edmoore> people don't know what they want often
[08:59] <edmoore> just make sure you agree the hourly rate up front
[08:59] <edmoore> and charge for helping them make a spec
[09:00] <AndyEsser> Darkside_: technically, sure, not so sure on the legal front
[09:00] <Darkside_> yes
[09:01] <Darkside_> i mea, its possible to get licences to go above 400ft
[09:01] <Darkside_> just not easy
[09:01] <mfa298> AndyEsser: I'm not sure that stops most drone pilots
[09:01] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I'm just naive and assuming people follow rules :)
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[09:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> wow 2m is wide open, propagation all over eu
[09:29] <Darkside_> feeling a bit troppo?
[09:30] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes :) http://www.dxmaps.com/spots/map.php?Frec=144&Map=EU
[09:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> a bit modd?E as well
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[09:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03NOTAFLIGHT after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NOTAFLIGHT
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[11:57] <F5MVO> Hello, anyone go to Ham Radio ?
[11:58] <F5MVO> Hello, somebody go to Ham Radio ?
[12:00] <LazyLeopard> Friedrichshafen?
[12:00] <LazyLeopard> Sadly not.
[12:00] <F5MVO> yes
[12:03] <F5MVO> How many around the globe UBSEDS15 ?
[12:03] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> 1 lap so far
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[12:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL9OBM-7 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL9OBM-7
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[13:02] <pb0ahx_> !flights
[13:02] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx_: Current flights: 03VEGA-2 10(d4ea), 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
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[13:24] <Ian_> Just catching up on the log . . . What's the anticipated flight time of this/these drone/s, how synchronised are they likely to be with 30 second reporting intervals; ho hum :) He probably went away feeling that he had a great project idea all ready to roll.
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[13:38] <fsphil> ooh what'd I miss?
[13:42] <mfa298> someone that wanted to control two drones (one in USA, one in Australia) at the same time.
[13:42] <fsphil> ah
[13:42] <mfa298> but you don't find that out until a fair way into him asking questions.
[13:43] <mfa298> I suspect it's not too hard to do technically (if broken down into managable tasks). Not sure how legal though.
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[14:03] Nick change: nDjtI -> mDjtI
[14:05] <daveake> Finding the distance between them every 30 seconds doesn't answer how the 2 are supposed to fly in sync, at all
[14:07] <daveake> Still, he didn't say up front what his aims are, and I'm not sure he had by the end either
[14:22] <mfa298> most of what he was asking about seemed to be more about checking after
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0PGM-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0PGM-11
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE0BVB-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE0BVB-11
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[16:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0ZRT-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0ZRT-11
[16:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0PGM-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0PGM-4
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[16:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W7UNR - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W7UNR
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[17:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DC2EH-14 after 0315 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-14
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[18:27] <Laurenceb_> http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2011/112525.pdf
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> reactor design with excel visual basic
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> no wonder we had fukushima
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[18:35] <nick_> In the background the reactor design all uses FORTRAN for the neutron transport.
[18:37] <nick_> At least in the west.
[18:37] <nick_> But presumably NK got a hacked MCNP license too.
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[19:09] <Vaizki> Visual Basic causes tsunamis??
[19:09] <AndyEsser> it's called....
[19:10] <AndyEsser> Waterfall software development
[19:10] <AndyEsser> :P
[19:10] <AndyEsser> (was not quite as nice a way to tie that up with a bow as I'd have liked)
[19:15] <fsphil> fukushima was a stack overflow
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[19:44] <gb73d> https://greatscottgadgets.com/hackrf/
[19:46] <fsphil> those are fun
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[20:01] <DL1SGP> hi folks. prelimary announcement of 4 starts being conducted on 18 June 2016 of which one will be lifting the new tracker design by our fellow HAB-Friend Lunar_Lander other starts will be club payloads as well as school project (and a pilot start with a refurbished DFM-06)
[20:02] <DL1SGP> I'll send further info through the mailing list as soon as my schedule permits :)
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[20:27] Nick change: dbrooke_ -> dbrooke
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[21:59] <fsphil> http://aurorawatch.lancs.ac.uk/
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Fuck off.
[22:01] Action: SpeedEvil is looking at the bright light camera.
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> err
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> That is annoying.
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> I was waiting for it to get slightly dark
[22:02] <fsphil> yeah it's still too bright here
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> and had not realised my outdoor cam had stalled at 10AM
[22:02] <fsphil> hah, oops
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure it's ever going to get dark enough for several motnhs
[22:03] <fsphil> mmm
[22:03] <fsphil> should be some nice noctilucent clouds to make up for it
[22:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SFSU - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SFSU
[22:14] <Vaizki> 1/3 of Finland is now in the "sun doesn't set" phase.. :)
[22:15] <Vaizki> in Rovaniemi the sun sets at 01:11 and rises at 01:20.. and tomorow night it doesn't set at all
[22:18] <Vaizki> vaan vois kyllä nukustella
[22:19] <DL7AD1> fsphil: ping
[22:19] Nick change: DL7AD1 -> DL7Ad
[22:19] Nick change: DL7Ad -> DL7AD
[22:21] <russss> nowhere in the UK has an astronomical night until September I think
[22:21] <russss> though in London we don't really ever
[22:22] <fsphil> pong DL7AD
[22:22] <DL7AD> fsphil: anything heared from the balloon further?
[22:22] <russss> (I lie, it's July)
[22:22] <fsphil> the sky is still not black here
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> I never get quite to sun-doesn't set - but it's not really 'night'
[22:23] <fsphil> Mars is sitting low on the horizon looking great
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> I can see planets
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> But not stars
[22:23] <fsphil> DL7AD: didn't see anything from it at all that day or the next
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Iridium flares are still good though
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> And ISS passes are always lit
[22:24] <fsphil> Mars is too low for the telescope. stupid trees
[22:24] Action: SpeedEvil imagines putting the trees on a big hinge
[22:24] <fsphil> haha
[22:24] <fsphil> perfect
[22:24] <fsphil> rest them for the night
[22:26] <Vaizki> down here in south of Finland where I live, the sun (right now) sets at about 22:40 .. but the nautical twilight lasts until 2:30 when it we move back into civil twilight and sunset at 4am
[22:26] <Vaizki> so right now is about the darkest time of night
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> What longitude are you at?
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[22:28] <Vaizki> 24.5 about
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> wait - did I mean latitude
[22:28] Action: SpeedEvil is not awake.
[22:28] <Vaizki> maybe? 60.2
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah - more northerly than me, but only by 4 degrees
[22:29] <Vaizki> means a lot for sunshine
[22:30] <Vaizki> I have a few friends who live at 69 degrees latitude, I don't know how they make it through winter
[22:32] <fsphil> 54.6 here
[22:35] <Vaizki> it's funny to think that the southern coast of Finland (where we had +28 just days ago) is further north than sourthern Greenland
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> 10:49-4:32 or so - 'dark so dark my webcam can't see the blue sky'
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> which is not very dark
[22:36] <Vaizki> whoa heavy plane landing this late in Helsinki airport..
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> Aliens.
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[22:37] <Vaizki> umm no was just a 737, made a really loud racket coming down
[22:37] <Vaizki> tuifly kamikaze pilots..
[22:38] <Vaizki> I'll be in London Wed-Thu btw..
[22:54] <AndyEsser> I'm sorry for you
[22:59] <zyp> I grew up at 69 degrees latitude
[23:00] <zyp> the summers makes up for the winters
[23:01] <zyp> and when you grow up there, it feels natural
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[23:02] <zyp> I remember first winter after I moved south, I realized that «woah, it's the middle of december and it's still possible to see the sun»
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[23:14] <mfa298> the sun, is that the bright round thing we see ~once a year in the UK (usually on a weekday when everyone is working)
[23:24] <Vaizki> zyp, whereabouts?
[23:25] <zyp> Andenes, Norway
[23:27] <Vaizki> ah. not a place I've happened by :)
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[00:00] --- Mon Jun 6 2016