highaltitude.log.20160520

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[07:39] <AndyEsser> morning
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[08:09] <gonzo__> morning
[08:09] <gonzo__> DHL/UPS broken anything more?>
[08:13] <swaledale> morning
[08:13] <daveake> They bent a cardboard packing tube for me. Fortunately the primary feature of the contents is that it can bend.
[08:15] <gonzo__> well anything bends if you try hard enough
[08:15] <daveake> thin cf rods. They survived.
[08:16] <gonzo__> cf?
[08:16] <daveake> so they didn't need to try too hard
[08:16] <daveake> carbon fibre
[08:16] <gonzo__> ah. Sounds interesting, for a project?
[08:23] <swaledale> I used to work at an airport and I've seen how DHL handle their cargo. I'm surprised anything makes it in one piece. Including carbon fibre! :)
[08:34] <daveake> Don;t Handle Lightly ?
[08:35] <swaledale> Delivery Hardly Likely
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[08:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CT2JVS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CT2JVS
[08:40] <AndyEsser> :)
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[08:42] <swaledale> I once watched DHL unload a cargo plane and 'drop' a load of boxes onto the tarmac. The boxes were full of japanese koi. oops.
[08:42] <AndyEsser> yay for CNC Machines auto-updating to Windows 10... *sigh*
[08:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LEGIOPI1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LEGIOPI1
[08:44] <swaledale> AndyEsser: was it as good as https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/f1/14/5ef114fcffcbd78e5f2d80953adbca18.jpg
[08:45] <AndyEsser> ha
[08:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LEGIOPI2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LEGIOPI2
[08:47] <swaledale> ah, the york romans have fired up their pi
[08:47] <swaledale> hope they have added those standoffs daveake :)
[08:47] <daveake> hah they said they would
[08:49] <swaledale> he asked me to help chase if it goes ahead. hope the wind plays nicely this time.
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[10:25] <pb0ahx> upu in the house ???
[10:27] <edmoore> he's in the north
[10:27] <edmoore> they have caves rather than houses
[10:28] <pb0ahx> hi hi
[10:30] <lz1dev> rude
[10:30] <AndyEsser> :O
[10:34] <mfa298> for some of us the M4 is the divider between the South and oop norf
[10:34] <mfa298> :p
[10:35] <daveake> oy :)
[10:37] <swaledale> hopefully upu is restocking his shelves, shop seems bare :)
[10:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03tiida_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tiida_chase
[10:41] <AndyEsser> UPS just picked up the packaging
[10:41] <AndyEsser> "I'm sorry mate, it was me that delivered it, I already sent it back once to be repackaged because of the state it was in"
[10:41] <AndyEsser> ... so that's why it wasn't on next-day delivery then
[10:41] <swaledale> did he think repackaging would fix the antenna?
[10:42] <AndyEsser> I suspect they didn't bother looking too closely
[10:43] <swaledale> the crunch sound may have alerted him
[10:43] <swaledale> ah well, not long til you get a new 'un
[10:49] <cm13g09> mfa298: it is Watford Gap
[10:49] <cm13g09> that's well defined
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[11:41] <Upu> hey swaledale
[11:41] <Upu> whats missing ?
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[11:50] <swaledale> hi, says lora expansion out of stock, was looking at trying out 868, so dual 434/868?
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[12:47] <Elwell> you folks using lora on hab stuff?
[12:49] <fsphil> there have been a few
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[12:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF4OVF-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF4OVF-11
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[13:22] <Upu> Will sort that is in stock
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[13:25] <BARC> Afternoon all, and happy Friday
[13:25] <BARC> Just thought I'd share this quick snap from the YEOTY event - spotted one balloon from another! http://imgur.com/AA674CC
[13:27] <AndyEsser> nice
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[13:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N9QIE-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N9QIE-11
[13:30] <fsphil> nice shot. very clear
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[13:34] <x-f> very nice!
[13:35] <gonzo__> yep, good shot
[13:38] <mattbrejza> given how many you put up, there must be other shots
[13:41] <AndyEsser> Law Of BARC: Throw Enough Balloons in the air, must catch some in photos
[13:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9FDK-15 after 0312 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-15
[13:57] <kc2uez> Quick question, the local highschool is launching a balloon today. How do you add its APRS call to tracker.habhub.org?
[13:57] <craag> lz1dev: ^^
[13:58] <Upu> whats the call sign ?
[13:58] <kc2uez> K2JJI-11
[13:58] <Upu> !aprs add K2JJI-11
[13:58] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Added 03K2JJI-11 to APRS Importer
[13:58] <Upu> tis done
[13:58] <kc2uez> awesome thanks
[13:59] <lz1dev> ¯\_(Ä)_/¯
[13:59] <lz1dev> .confetti
[13:59] <SpacenearUS> 2´*.D¨¯`* 2D*¨¯`* 2
[13:59] <SpacenearUS> 2´ *. Congratulations 2 ¯`*
[13:59] <SpacenearUS> ¨¯`*D2´* 2.D *¨¯`*2
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[14:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K2JJI-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K2JJI-11
[14:16] <kc2uez> yay, it worked
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[14:21] <AndyEsser> .confetti
[14:21] <SpacenearUS> 2´*.D¨¯`* 2D*¨¯`* 2
[14:21] <SpacenearUS> 2´ *. Congratulations 2 ¯`*
[14:21] <SpacenearUS> ¨¯`*D2´* 2.D *¨¯`*2
[14:21] <AndyEsser> woo
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[14:22] <kc2uez> going for 80,000ft
[14:22] <SIbot> In real units: 80,000 ft = 24.4 km
[14:23] <kc2uez> :)
[14:24] <gonzo__> 1 league
[14:24] <gonzo__> 1 gill
[14:24] <gonzo__> 1 furlong
[14:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> at what sort of ascent rate can you generally push to before you start paying for it in altitude?
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[14:24] <gonzo__> ah, sibot is sulking
[14:24] <edmoore> SIBot is a minimum viable botduct
[14:25] <edmoore> Ben-AstroSoc: you always pay for it
[14:25] <gonzo__> 1 chain
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[14:25] <gonzo__> 1 stirk
[14:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> is there any data on how aggressiveily you lose peak altitude?
[14:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> for instance, a 10m/s descent
[14:26] <gonzo__> (I would have thought it would have been modded for that!)
[14:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> ascent*
[14:26] <edmoore> well just work it out
[14:26] <edmoore> burst diameter is fixed
[14:26] <edmoore> you know the drag of a sphere
[14:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> ok
[14:26] <edmoore> make a graph
[14:28] <edmoore> say, for example, a 10m diameter burst balloon that has a system mass of 2kg (balloon+payload etc)
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[14:28] Action: AndyEsser fires up ipython notebook
[14:30] <edmoore> exactly so
[14:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> just wondering how quickly we could push a launch to a target altitude before we can no longetr hit that altitude
[14:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> more as a business point than a technical one
[14:30] <edmoore> that's a weird and false distinction
[14:30] <edmoore> you ask a question, you work out the numbers to answer it
[14:30] <edmoore> in business as in engineering
[14:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> mhm
[14:33] <mfa298> or do some handwavy thing whilst guessing a number if you're in marketing.
[14:33] <mfa298> then hope the engineers can make it happen
[14:34] <cm13g09> mfa298: ssh.... marketing sit next to me!
[14:35] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
[14:35] <AndyEsser> This is passed around software development circles frequently
[14:35] <AndyEsser> just as relevant for engineers I suspect
[14:44] <SM0ULC-Reb> it's a good one
[14:44] <mfa298> and they ask about inflating a balloon at the end so it's even on topic :p
[14:45] <SM0ULC-Reb> :)
[14:45] <mfa298> not that a small thing like being on topic usually stops such things on here
[14:46] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:52] <gonzo__> it's a gift we have
[14:52] <gonzo__> I find most of my conversations are not just tangiental, they are fractal
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[15:20] <kc2uez> nice, went over 24.4k our goal
[15:21] <Ian_> What size balloon and payload weight please kc2uez?
[15:22] <kc2uez> not 100 sure on the balloon size, 5lb 2oz
[15:22] <SIbot> In real units: 5 lbs = 2.3 kg
[15:23] <fsphil> that would be a bit of a beast
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[15:26] <kc2uez> we have a geiger counter. arduino and a couple of sensors, 4 sony action 4k cams small foam cooler and ropes and chute
[15:30] <AndyEsser> hmm... RW are concerned that UPS have taken the Antenna away
[15:30] <AndyEsser> I really hope they still let me pick one up tomorrow morning....
[15:32] <Ian_> The RW claim against UPS would be for the value of the item, not the return of the broken item. As long as they make good, the title to the property will transfer to UPS or their insurerers, surely? It's only a problem if UPS contest it and fail to show the evidence.
[15:32] <kc2uez> going out to help find it now
[15:33] <AndyEsser> Ian_: suspect it'll be fine - UPS should return it them at the end of the investigation I think
[15:35] <Ian_> If you claim for a car written off, you usually get a settlement and the insurance co gets to dispose of the car for what they can get . . . then they pursue some poor soul for the difference, their losses!
[15:36] <AndyEsser> Yea
[15:36] <AndyEsser> will just have to wait and see
[15:36] <Ian_> Watch out for UPS with wonky antenna on their establishments
[15:36] <AndyEsser> ha
[15:36] <AndyEsser> small breeze will finish the crack and snap it
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[15:45] <LunarMobile> QFH was disappointing today
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[15:47] <AndyEsser> bugger... think RW have buggered off for the day
[15:47] <Ian_> So, deep null your end then? :)
[15:47] <AndyEsser> and haven't said whether they've got the replacement X50Ns in stock
[15:48] <Ian_> Dave the Gas Man has gone for tea. I would have thought that the shop would close at 1700
[15:48] <fsphil> must have been a quiet evening
[15:48] <Ian_> The deep null had to do with LunarMobile 's QFH
[15:48] <LunarMobile> :D
[15:48] <Ian_> Gone to count his £££for the day
[15:49] <Ian_> Not renowned for his social skills though.
[15:50] <AndyEsser> RW are confused why UPS have taken it away - but still have the replacement set aside for me :)
[15:50] <LunarMobile> Antenna was out of the window facing south, got time within 10 seconds, but no lock even after 30 min
[15:51] <AndyEsser> nah answered eventually :)
[15:51] <LunarMobile> Yesterday I was able to get lock within 2.5 min
[15:51] <Ian_> Different antenna yesterday?
[15:51] <AndyEsser> Ian_: Dave the Gas Man?
[15:52] <Ian_> Yes Andy
[15:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> reckon we have a semi decent business plan
[15:52] <Ian_> LL not got the RH and LH polarization confused of course :)
[15:54] <Ian_> Andy, I think that was his calling before he set up in business. He opened his shop on the corner . . . must be fifteen to twenty years ago now - how time flies
[15:55] <Ian_> Moved a few yards up the road a couple of years ago IIRC
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[15:58] <Laurenceb_> my CAM-8M gets lock in <200ms on my desk :D
[15:58] <adamgreig> from cold?
[15:58] <Laurenceb_> nope, with battery backup
[15:59] <adamgreig> warm or hot?
[15:59] <Laurenceb_> well I've left it up to ~10 hours and still got near instant lock
[15:59] <Laurenceb_> havent done exhaustive tests tho
[15:59] <Laurenceb_> it works well enough for me :D
[16:00] <Ian_> How long does a stored ephemeris remain valid, as opposed to an almanac?
[16:01] <Ian_> or is that a set of ephemeris
[16:02] <Laurenceb_> well "that depends"
[16:02] <Laurenceb_> unless they change the sat planes and stuff it will be useful practically forever
[16:04] <LunarMobile> Same antenna as yesterday, yes :)
[16:04] <Ian_> With a valid ephimeris the lock time should be very quick. If only the almanac is held, in which case new ephemeris require to be downloaded
[16:04] <zyp> Ian_, four hours
[16:04] <Ian_> Thanks, a bit like a short term TLA, in effect
[16:05] <zyp> while the almanac is valid for 180 days
[16:05] <Ian_> LL bit of a mystery why the large disparity.
[16:05] <LunarMobile> I agree
[16:05] <Ian_> zyp, I'm getting wiser by the moment!
[16:06] <zyp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals#Navigation_message <- wikipedia has a good overview of how it all fits together
[16:06] <Laurenceb_> well thats the update time
[16:06] <Laurenceb_> not how long its "better than nothing" for
[16:06] <LunarMobile> And as I said, time info appears within 30 sec
[16:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BRAX - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BRAX
[16:24] <LunarMobile> Time to call upu and his shop
[16:24] <LunarMobile> :)
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[17:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KC9PON-11 after 036 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9PON-11
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[17:33] <tweetBot> @jamescoxon: @jamescoxon Launch postponed until Sun 22/5 ~0900 as better ground winds, aiming float between 30-40km #ukhasnet #ukhas
[17:39] <SA6BSS-Mike> sdrconsole Preview 2, May 20th 2016 http://sdr-radio.com/v3_preview_downloads
[17:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> another technical preview od sdr-console is up
[17:40] <SA6BSS-Mike> v3
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[18:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG5LTH-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5LTH-1
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[19:00] <Ben-AstroSoc> this is the bit where i OD on caffiene
[19:00] <edmoore> What are you working on?
[19:02] <Ben-AstroSoc> big 24 hour hackathon at RAL space
[19:02] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're working on a business proposal and web portal for that flyback drone i was looking at
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[19:07] <PE2BZ> Hi. Does anyone know how wide a HRPT transmission on 1700 MHz would be ?
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[19:25] <kc2uez> balloon is visible, but hanging from a 100' tall tree right next to an open field arg!
[19:29] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 036 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[19:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> the site wifi keeps utting out -.-
[19:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WB8ELK-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-12
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[20:44] <Ben-AstroSoc> does anyone know of a battery chemistry that withstands low temperatures (-40) like the L91, but is rechargable?
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[21:03] <richardeoin> Ben-AstroSoc: Hahahaha
[21:03] <richardeoin> Lithium Sulphur works
[21:04] <richardeoin> Airbus probably have some if you ask nicely
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[21:04] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'll have a look - wanted to see if we could make any savings not having to use new cells every flight
[21:05] <Ben-AstroSoc> mmph they're really new tech
[21:05] <richardeoin> yea, just military applications atm really
[21:06] <richardeoin> airbus use them for zepyhr for instance
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[21:06] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're looking at medium scale production for a reusable HAB
[21:06] <Ben-AstroSoc> might be easier to run LiPo and insulate
[21:06] <richardeoin> this company are trying to improve them for a wider range of applications http://www.oxisenergy.com
[21:06] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah i'm on their site atm
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[21:07] <richardeoin> LiPo is maybe useable if you current draw is small compared to the battery capacity
[21:08] <Ben-AstroSoc> isn't it more a case of you lose all voltage if you hit a certain temp
[21:08] <mfa298> in the scheme of things a new lithium AA isn't much expense per flight compared to balloon + gas
[21:09] <mfa298> (unless you're mostly doing picos, at which rechargable + solar might make sense)
[21:09] <richardeoin> yeah LiPO will collapse at some point between -40 and -55 depending on the exact cells, but you'll probably have problems with the internal resistance first
[21:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> it adds up when you're doing ~40 flights a day though mfa298
[21:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> i haven't seen LiPos work well thhat low, i'll have a look around
[21:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> NiCad and special LiPos apparently can
[21:10] <richardeoin> Oxis seem to have had lots of funding from Innovate UK etc, so might well be worth getting in contact
[21:11] <mfa298> so £40 vs the hundreds you'd be spending on balloon+gas
[21:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> with low discharge
[21:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'd love to know where you're gettinb ulk L91s for that price
[21:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> and we're making the weather agencies pay for hte gas ;)
[21:11] <mfa298> and with a new primary cell you know how long it will last, what happens if someoen forgot to turn the charger on for your rechargeable cells the night before.
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> Ben-AstroSoc: fixed wing flyback glider?
[21:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> ye
[21:12] <mfa298> rechargable cells also mean you have to recover the balloons to re-use them if this is based on up/down flights. A cheap tracker + primary cell is probably cheaper that recovering (unless there's other stuff you really need to recover)
[21:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're looking into doing a glidersonde
[21:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> seeing as no-one's doing it propelry
[21:13] <richardeoin> L91s are £2 each at high street retailers, might be able to get close to £1 in volume
[21:13] <richardeoin> Ben-AstroSoc: you've seen southampton's MAVIS thing right?
[21:13] <Ben-AstroSoc> richardeoin: i'm getting shafted on amazon then LOL
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> Ben-AstroSoc: I did a rogallo wing in 2009
[21:14] <mfa298> L91's have been £4/£5 for a pack of four in supermarkets before, maybe not all the time, but they have been (so chances are you'll get that sort of price in bulk)
[21:14] <Ben-AstroSoc> that MAVIS thing look spretty interesting
[21:15] <Ben-AstroSoc> looks like MAVIS is being used tor rapid environment analysis, they're completely bespoke for each use case
[21:16] <richardeoin> I think that's what the research group is interested in, so makes sense
[21:17] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[21:17] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're looking at developing the DataBird type thing further, it's being developed in new zealand
[21:17] <richardeoin> there's also plenty of papers in clever things like swarm collaboration
[21:18] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're looking to target savings in the daily meteorological balloon launches that weather stations send up
[21:18] <mfa298> Assuming the 2nd hit on google is an honest seller. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261709610034 £1 each for a pack of 24
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:ukhas_glider_project:pict7921.jpg?w=700&tok=2a5cc6
[21:19] <Ben-AstroSoc> i remember seeing that Laurenceb_
[21:20] <richardeoin> impressive Laurenceb_
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> if you can live with low glide ratio I'd try that design
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[21:20] <richardeoin> does the rogallo wing have any other advantages over fixed wing?
[21:20] <richardeoin> other than legal in the UK that is?
[21:20] <mfa298> Ben-AstroSoc: if you're trying to make savings on the sort of launches the Met office do then remember they don't collect them, The cost of recovery is likely much greater than the cost of the Payload and battery
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> richardeoin: its _very_ stable
[21:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> sure, but they pay $155 per sonde, we think we cna improve on that by providing the launches as a service
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> seems to have no failure modes if designed properly, it will never get into a spiral dive or other death dive situation
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> so you can live with basic control even in heavy turbulence
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[21:21] <Laurenceb_> I just had a heading hold PID loop
[21:22] <richardeoin> heh that's interesting
[21:22] <richardeoin> but you had problems with things getting tangled iirc?
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> actually untangled
[21:23] <richardeoin> was that as it deployed maybe?
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> it was during ascent, I simulated it later on the ground
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> an hour of shaking undid the knots in the nylon line
[21:23] <mfa298> Ben-AstroSoc: the point being if you're using rechargable cells, they're only saving if you can get them back, and the recovery is cheap (i.e. potentially a very few miles of travelling, and not much person time)
[21:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> the idea is that the recovery is cheap
[21:25] <richardeoin> Laurenceb_: do you have a copy of the test drop video https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:ukhas_glider_project:airframe ?
[21:25] <richardeoin> link is dead :(
[21:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> we think you can provide a sonde launch service for less than $155 per launch
[21:25] <Laurenceb_> oh google video :S
[21:26] <Laurenceb_> maybe on old laptop, I'll look in a bit, cooking atm
[21:26] <richardeoin> thanks
[21:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WO9N-7 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WO9N-7
[21:41] <Ian_> Just catching up zyp, so a subframe takes 6 seconds and there are five in a frame. 25 frames being needed for the whole almanac, so that explains where 12.5 minutes to gain an initial lock might come from
[21:42] <Ian_> Although I guess receipt from multiple birds might cut that time down.
[21:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> coming up wiht a workable price model for this is a nightmare
[21:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> if we use a one-off payment and let them get on with it there's no incentive for us to build a decently reusable system
[21:50] <Ben-AstroSoc> if we charged a low rate per flight there's no incentive for them to attempt to get the recovered system
[21:50] <Ben-AstroSoc> because we'd have to provide another one and don't have admin power to prove if it's actually lost and not just abandoned
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[21:52] <Ian_> Give them a price for total resupply and incentive rebates to recover. Set the price accordingly to gain both acceptance and the required degree of compliance.
[21:55] <mfa298> mixed charging scheme along the lines of upfront setup fee/ deposit and ongoing support and per flight /time period maintenace costs (replacement of parts, ongoing improvments etc)
[21:56] <mfa298> you'll probably also want to factor in their time etc. as to what it costs them. If getting a recovered payload flight ready takes too long those fly once payloads become a lot more tempting.
[21:57] <Ian_> Back to non-rechargeable L91's
[21:58] <Ben-AstroSoc> what if we offered a x price per flight, fi they reach an arbitrarily defined number of recovered flights, they keep the glider, no cost. if they lose it in land (ie less likely to be our fault its lost) they pay the remainder of flighits up to the limit and get a new vehicle
[21:58] <Ben-AstroSoc> kinda the reverse of a big up front price and incentive rebate
[22:00] <Ian_> Leastwise, that's the contract you would like accepted . . . Your first offer to treat? Prepare for disappointment, as it takes two to tango.
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[22:01] <Ben-AstroSoc> another idea we had was do the up front price, have an incentive recovery rebate, if it's lose in the sea, pay back half of what theyh're owed for recovery, if lost in lane, they get nothing back (or a smaller fraction)
[22:01] <Ben-AstroSoc> idea being its less likely to be our fault it's lost inland than it is out to sea
[22:01] <Ben-AstroSoc> we don't want to penalise being lost to coastal weather but we want to incentivise to recover the hopefully safely landed vehicle inland
[22:02] <mfa298> why is it less likely to be your fault if it's lost on land rather than at sea.
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[22:03] <mfa298> assuming this is something that's supposed to return to base then if it doesn't I'd say that's a fail regardless of where it actually landed
[22:04] <Ben-AstroSoc> because the weather can reallt screw you out on the coast, whereas we'd like to think we'd have a better recovery cadence inland
[22:04] <Ben-AstroSoc> as an incentive for them to actually try and recover the thing if possible
[22:05] <Ben-AstroSoc> ie if its lost on land its more likely to be them abandoning it than it is us screwing up
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[22:05] <Ben-AstroSoc> say if lost out to sea, we pay back 70% of what's owed in recovery rebate, if it's lost inland, we pay back 25% of rebate
[22:06] <Ben-AstroSoc> numbers out my ass but its an idea
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[22:07] <mfa298> if you're expecting them to try and recover on land you're getting back to my earlier point of costs.
[22:07] <mfa298> If I had to travel 50 miles per payload to recover it, it's probably cheaper to just do one shot payloads.
[22:08] <Ian_> Maybe needs a JDAM pack and a field to aim for
[22:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> we'd want to aim to get close to one of the weather stations dotted across the country
[22:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> were toying with the idea of having a small motor to boost altitude, using an airframe optimised for gliding
[22:12] <mfa298> I think the only way you can sensibly make this work is if you can give a reasonably high rate of the payload returning to specific co-ordinates.
[22:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> that would be the idea
[22:12] <mfa298> if it's a case of it'll land in this sort of area the cost and logistics of recovery are likely to be prohibitive.
[22:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> i don't think it's all that of a big ask given the quality of some autopilots nowadays
[22:13] <Ben-AstroSoc> we could potentiall add 1-2 hours of flight with a boost motor
[22:14] <mfa298> I suspect to get any organisation to buy into it you'd also need to give them some details of how many are expected to return to reasonably precise co-ordinates (which you're likely to be held to under contract)
[22:14] <Ian_> A bit like a lifting body with chute for the last km
[22:16] <Ben-AstroSoc> if we have something reliably recoverable that'd bring the cost/flighth that actually goes towards the airframe itself, thereby allowing more margin to recover it and still remain under the $155 per flight limit
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.net/yjjuluwqf7
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> can only find that on old hdd lol
[22:18] <Ben-AstroSoc> if we could have say $50-60 per flight actually going towards the unit cost, that leaves a lot of room for recovery that still saves decent money
[22:19] <mfa298> If I were the metoffice looking at a re-useable payload I'd probably be specifying landing in one of a small number of fields across the country (probably near to met office locations) and wanting a large proportion (90% maybe) of payloads to land in them. Anything outside would be considered lost due to software failure and the supplier would be resonsible (and have to prove otherwise).
[22:19] <mfa298> of course that would likely be written up in something like a Tender Spec which would be pages long, and need an even longer response.
[22:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> mhm
[22:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> we've been looking at weather station spacing in different countries
[22:22] <mfa298> on a commercial level $155 doesn't give a lot for recovery, The largest cost is likely to be persons time.
[22:23] <mfa298> my 50 mile radius probalby isn't that far out in terms of the limit for when a $155 one shot is cheaper than recovering.
[22:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[22:23] <mfa298> plus it's a fixed cost which peopel tend to like.
[22:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're wondering if EU countries might buy the less dumping in the environment angle
[22:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> part of the challenge is safe data collection right before rocket launches, looking at focusing on that for the moment
[22:28] <mfa298> I can see that being a nicer starting point, it may not need to go as high (so less travelling), and its likely to only be launched if the conditions look suitable (so not having to worry about storms etc)
[22:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> it'd emphasise the safety aspect of having a guaranteed known landing spot instead of emphasising potential reliability
[22:29] <Ian_> Stick a return label and a £10 reward on it and let the unwashed public do the job for free.
[22:29] <Ian_> On Thursday it seems that there was a Balloon launch that has been lost
[22:29] <Ian_> Colesham Primary School, Shewsbury, "Unfortunately, our tracking device stopped working or is out of mobile signal".
[22:30] <Ian_> Not sure if this is sentintospace supplied kit or a complete DIY job, but sounds like GSM and the unfortunate 50% recovery rate.
[22:32] <Ian_> #FindColehamsBalloon Kate Nash seems to be the contact
[22:40] <Ian_> Anyone know if there was a balloon ascent NOTAM for the Shewsbury area on 19 May?
[22:40] <Ian_> Two cameras and a red plastic T-Rex seems to be AWOL
[22:41] <Ian_> Orange parachute
[22:42] <Ian_> The fact of the launch apparently got broadcast radio coverage. Shame there wasn't some radio on board.
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[22:49] <mfa298> there seem to be a few groups that can only manange one form of radio, and they seem to go for broadcast radio
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[23:12] <Ian_> That was local radio of course, but I do believe that BARC seem to largely promote GSM and SPOT trackers, which the rest of the community have evolved away from many years ago. I suspect that they probably supplied the kit, although that is my idle speculation. If they had gone to Steve for balloons and parachutes, then maybe they might have got directed to #ha for assistance
[23:12] <amell> Having fun with the pi0 - can't seem to get a keyboard/mouse working
[23:12] <amell> Seems the USB isn't putting out any power. Someone knows the magic incantation?
[23:13] <Ian_> amell, update on bees and red light . . . A really BAD idea!
[23:13] <amell> What you got swarmed and stung?
[23:14] <amell> daveake: do you know how to get pi0 running without taking SD card out? Keyboard/mouse doesn't work. I have the noobs screen up and google is failing
[23:16] <Ian_> a double 14x12 brood box, with 17 'good' frames of brood and lots of angry bees.
[23:17] <Ian_> The theory is that bees don't see red light, but some of them were flying in it. Heaving with bees and I'm splitting it into five five frame nuc boxes. A painful experience . . . ;)
[23:17] <Ian_> Defo not recommended!
[23:19] <gonzo__p> hab bee keeping, we do have some diverse subjects on this chan
[23:19] <amell> Aha. USB hub fixed it
[23:19] <amell> You mean you didn't wear bee suit?
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[23:22] <Ian_> HDMI on the left, usb data in the middle and usb power in on the right?
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[23:22] <amell> Yes. Turns out the Pi zero does not supply USB power
[23:22] <Ian_> Oh I had a beesuit on
[23:23] <amell> I put it all through a powered hub and all working now
[23:23] <amell> (Maybe it does, but not by default)
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[23:24] <Ian_> So takes power from rh usb port, but doesn't supply via the middle data usb port (by default)?
[23:24] <gonzo__p> why do I have an image of a fancy dress bee outfit
[23:25] <amell> Ian_: yes apparently!
[23:25] <Ian_> It didn't feel funny, although if the police had come up the track flashing white lights about, I might have seen the funny side of it.
[23:25] <Ian_> Tks
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[23:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> Neck deep in haversin functions
[23:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> I'm so tired
[23:26] <amell> So tired you can't spell haversine
[23:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> .
[23:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> ran out of red bull an hour ago
[23:32] <amell> Use haversine formula to find your nearest red bull stockist
[23:34] <Ben-AstroSoc> we can't get out of the building lol
[23:37] <Laurenceb_> Ben-AstroSoc: are you still a student?
[23:39] <Ben-AstroSoc> i am
[23:40] <Ben-AstroSoc> just wrapped up second year
[23:40] <amell> 15 min to install raspbian so far
[23:42] <Laurenceb_> ah cool, this a uni project?
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[23:42] <Ben-AstroSoc> more or less, we're at a hackathon that had a challenge that we thought fit this uni project
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-681 - sort of related to #ha
[23:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> 13 hours left
[23:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> writing an algorithm to calculate windspeed by changes in lat/long
[23:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> it's a pain to get it tto graph
[23:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> made worse by the fact i don't know js or php
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> heh
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> I did all this for a rogallo guidance
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> iirc 150m high vertical integrations works best
[23:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> *woosh*
[23:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> i think we're close to having a vehicle capabliities page up
[23:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> a la spacex's falcon 9 page
[23:47] <Ian_> Over my head too :)
[23:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://artech.space
[23:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> not hooked up yet
[23:48] <amell> Ben-AstroSoc: which uni?
[23:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> aston
[23:49] <amell> I had someone contact UKRA as they wanted to do an active guidance and landing test of rocket
[23:49] <amell> This involved firing motors on landing
[23:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> er
[23:50] <amell> Exactly
[23:51] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host86-152-48-162.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[23:51] Nick change: nsh- -> nsh
[00:00] --- Sat May 21 2016