highaltitude.log.20160518

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[01:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0312_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=12_chase
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[05:20] <arko> http://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-super-pressure-balloon-begins-globetrotting-journey
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[05:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0312_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=12_chase
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[07:28] <AndyEsser> morning
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[08:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03669NT - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=669NT
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[08:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03669NT - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=669NT
[08:19] <AndyEsser> interesting... SPUTKNIC appears to be at a Care Home
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[08:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03669NT - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=669NT
[08:31] <lz1dev> .hysplit add 669NT
[08:31] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Added 03669NT to defaults
[08:31] <lz1dev> .hysplit run 669NT
[08:31] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Your job has been added to the queue. Check in a few minutes
[08:36] <lz1dev> .hysplit
[08:36] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: HYSPLIT available for: 03SP9UOB-11, UBSEDS15
[08:36] <AndyEsser> lz1dev: wait more minutes :)
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[08:40] <lz1dev> .hysplit
[08:40] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: HYSPLIT available for: 03SP9UOB-11, UBSEDS15
[08:40] <lz1dev> .hysplit run 669NT
[08:40] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Your job has been added to the queue. Check in a few minutes
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[08:44] <pb0ahx> !flights
[08:44] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
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[08:45] <lz1dev> .ping 669NT
[08:45] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Last contact with 03669NT was 03a few seconds ago
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[08:46] <lz1dev> rip
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[09:41] <AndyEsser> *sigh* where are there no training centres for electrical qualifications anywhere near me :(
[09:43] <adamgreig> local community college?
[09:43] <kokey> AndyEsser: I guess that wouldn't be a problem if there weren't electrical faults on the train line
[09:44] <AndyEsser> yea, wasn't showing on google search - but going direct to City & Guilds shows West Cheshire College has the course
[09:44] <AndyEsser> although I've always been unsure exactly what the minimum required qualifications are for commercial electrical installations
[09:44] <AndyEsser> so need to do some research
[09:45] <kokey> I need to fix some wiring an electrician did wrong in the house we've moved into
[09:45] <kokey> it makes me wonder about qualifications
[09:45] <russss> AndyEsser: in short, there are none
[09:45] <AndyEsser> russss: is it all "insurance driven"
[09:45] <AndyEsser> like PAT etc?
[09:45] <mfa298> from what I remember when looking some years ago it seemed to be difficult to do some of the qualifications without working for a suitable company.
[09:45] <AndyEsser> rather than being a hard and fast rule?
[09:45] <russss> yeah it's insurance driven
[09:46] <russss> cargo cult
[09:46] <Lunar_LanderU> $PUBX,00,094513.00,5217.06952,N,00801.49625,E,140.810,G3,17,10,1.905,169.58,-0.313,,6.93,3.77,5.81,4,0,0*48
[09:46] <Lunar_LanderU> science gave rock and roll to you!
[09:46] <AndyEsser> russss: as I'd rather not void the companies insurance (we're in an ancient building, it'll burn down eventually) I'd rather be covered :P
[09:46] <Lunar_LanderU> ublox max7 on vaisala RS80 QFH
[09:46] <AndyEsser> plus, something I can do on the side for some money
[09:51] <edmoore> what do you want to do AndyEsser ?
[09:51] <edmoore> if you follow BS 7blahdeblah you're probably fine
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[09:52] <LunarMobile> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDY3NMOWdTMkhUMHc/view?usp=drivesdk
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[09:55] <AndyEsser> edmoore: potentially save the company a fortune
[09:55] <AndyEsser> since our electrical contractors are shite
[09:55] <AndyEsser> but specifically, this is running cabling from the DB up to the server room, into a rotary isolator and back out again
[09:55] <edmoore> i mean what do you want to do electrically
[09:56] <edmoore> if it's a worry then what you do is do it
[09:56] <edmoore> then hire an electrician to sign it off
[09:56] <edmoore> that's normally what I do when putting down a new 3 phase line at work
[09:56] <edmoore> which i had to do a bit last year
[09:56] <AndyEsser> that makes sense I guess
[09:57] <AndyEsser> although I don't have the drilling equipment to get in and out the walls - but that might be something I bear in mind for next time
[10:00] <edmoore> buying yourself a nice makita sds is still likely to be cheaper than an industrial electrician contractor-day
[10:00] <AndyEsser> true
[10:00] <edmoore> worth it if you plan to do more stuff anyway, probably not for a one-off
[10:00] <AndyEsser> something I wouldn't mind doing - certainly a way to help bolster the income when/if I go freelance perhaps
[10:02] <edmoore> get certified as a competent person if doing that
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[10:04] <AndyEsser> edmoore: that's the plan
[10:07] <AndyEsser> shall we take bets on whether UPS actually deliver my antenna today?
[10:08] <edmoore> they delivered my iphone a day early
[10:08] <edmoore> i don't have a sim for it
[10:08] <edmoore> annoying
[10:09] <AndyEsser> :(
[10:09] <AndyEsser> I still need to sort out the sim swap for my new phone
[10:09] <AndyEsser> annoying carrying two phones around atm
[10:09] <adamgreig> can't you cut up your current sim? :P
[10:10] <edmoore> i don't think you can micro->nano
[10:10] <edmoore> with scissors
[10:11] <edmoore> oh maybe you can
[10:11] <adamgreig> i feel like you can
[10:11] <russss> you can
[10:11] <edmoore> just googled
[10:11] <russss> at least unless your SIM isn't horrendously old
[10:11] <edmoore> i thought it was only normal->micro
[10:11] <russss> it's a bit fiddly though
[10:11] <edmoore> it's 5yrs old
[10:12] <adamgreig> most sim cards these days come as full, mini, micro, nano, all at different levels of popout
[10:12] <adamgreig> not that many phones take mini sim cards any more, let alone full size
[10:12] <adamgreig> you mean mini to micro :P
[10:12] <edmoore> yes
[10:12] <russss> nah when I got my replacement nano it was just that size
[10:13] <russss> I don't think they do micro->nano popout as that's barely any plastic
[10:13] <adamgreig> hmm i got one yesterday from ee for a backup tracker thing that popped out micro to nano
[10:13] <adamgreig> I agree it is barely any plastic
[10:13] Nick change: pc1pcl_ -> luteijn
[10:14] <edmoore> it looks more like a job for the linisher
[10:16] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: same with my vodafone one last week
[10:16] <AndyEsser> full->micro->nano as a popout
[10:20] <gonzo__> the full card is prob only req for programming in the facory
[10:21] <gonzo__> and to save customers losing them before inst
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[10:40] <AndyEsser> adapters and antenna are here :)
[10:41] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/D4lPOzx
[10:41] <AndyEsser> gee, I sure hope this isn't fragile...
[10:47] <swaledale> Ooh shiny things.
[10:47] <swaledale> Which antenna did you go for in the end?
[10:48] <gonzo__> they are pretty robust
[10:48] <AndyEsser> nope
[10:48] <AndyEsser> it's fucked
[10:48] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/w79cVBp
[10:48] <gonzo__> pft
[10:49] <fsphil> :/
[10:49] <gonzo__> monkeys
[10:50] <DeltaEcho_> What kind of antenna was it?
[10:50] <mfa298> ouch
[10:50] <gonzo__> if they don't need it returning, it may be patchable
[10:50] <gonzo__> as a spare
[10:50] <AndyEsser> Diamond X50
[10:50] <adamgreig> jeez
[10:50] <adamgreig> what did they do to the poor thing!!
[10:50] <fsphil> it took special effort to do that
[10:50] <gonzo__> that actually takes some doing
[10:50] <adamgreig> yea they're pretty tough
[10:52] <AndyEsser> I'm hoping that Radioworld will be good about it at least
[10:52] <swaledale> Jeez, thats a bit brok
[10:54] Nick change: murb_ -> murb
[10:54] <gonzo__> the photo's are pretty conclusive
[10:54] <gonzo__> by rights, they should just ship a replacement uber quick
[10:55] <gonzo__> wonder if that's why ups were dragging their feet
[10:56] <fsphil> radioworld should probably be using the thick cardboard tubes for shipping
[10:56] <AndyEsser> tbf - they couldn't wrapped it better
[10:56] <AndyEsser> dropping an email to radioworld now
[10:56] <AndyEsser> could've*
[10:57] <fsphil> the last one I got was packaged like yours, was just lucky I guess
[10:58] <AndyEsser> I'm sure it would've been fine if someone had driven over it with a forklift or something
[10:58] <AndyEsser> hadn't*
[10:58] <AndyEsser> ffs
[10:58] <AndyEsser> can't type
[11:03] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, that package has not been treated reasonably.
[11:04] <AndyEsser> email sent to RadioWorld, hopefully they'll be good sports about it
[11:04] <AndyEsser> and claim logged with UPS
[11:04] <LazyLeopard> With photos, I presume.
[11:04] <AndyEsser> of course
[11:08] <adamgreig> did you accept delivery of it like that? wonder if they'll be pains about it
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[11:08] <AndyEsser> I really hope not - I didn't sign for it :(
[11:13] Nick change: spe_ -> spe
[11:14] Nick change: spe -> Guest55421
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[11:15] <AndyEsser> "There is a new scan today saying that the package has been loaded on the van for delivery. I understand that you saw the same message before so we'll have to make sue there's no further trouble caused by this delivery."
[11:16] <AndyEsser> response I got this morning from UPS about it not being delivered on time
[11:16] <AndyEsser> "we'll have to make sure there's no further trouble caused by this delivery"
[11:16] <AndyEsser> fail
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[11:24] <AndyEsser> looks like UPS want to blame the packaging
[11:27] Nick change: Guest55421 -> spe
[11:29] <AndyEsser> apparently the Queen has been talking about Spaceports in the UK
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> good, send her to Mars
[11:34] <edmoore> nanosim linishing worked fine
[11:36] <adamgreig> hah nice
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[12:00] <jakeio> Currently trying to put my Ublox M8q into Airborne dynamic mode.
[12:01] <jakeio> It won't acknowledge me!
[12:02] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb_: not a fan of the Royals then?
[12:08] <jakeio> Upu, what does the acknowledgement packet look like from the Ublox M8q?
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[12:09] <Lunar_LanderU> hm acquisition takes some time with the QFH antenna
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[12:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03669NT - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=669NT
[12:15] <craag> jakeio: It's in the protocol description, or you can connect it to a PC with ucenter, do it manually from there and watch the messages
[12:17] <Lunar_LanderU> 2.5 min
[12:17] <Lunar_LanderU> quite OK
[12:17] <Lunar_LanderU> hi cr
[12:17] <Lunar_LanderU> craag,
[12:17] <craag> afternoon Lunar_LanderU
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[12:23] <Lunar_LanderU> 2min 7 sec
[12:23] <Lunar_LanderU> that is OK
[12:23] HA6NN (57e5281b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.229.40.27) joined #highaltitude.
[12:24] <HA6NN> Hi all :)
[12:25] <jakeio> Assuming the hex data in the array x are correct, is there anything else wrong with this (Python) test code for telling the GPS to go to Airborne mode?
[12:25] <jakeio> http://pastebin.com/UFWLGYjs
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[12:31] <thasti> jakeio: i use these bytes (which work fine and get acknowledged) .. the only differences i see are regarding DGPS timeout and static hold max. distance - https://github.com/thasti/utrak/blob/master/gps.c#L234
[12:33] <jakeio> OK. Thanks thasti.
[12:33] <jakeio> There must be something wrong with my method.
[12:35] <thasti> do you at least receive a NAK message?
[12:35] <thasti> do any other commands work?
[12:35] <jakeio> Well, I've not got anything back from the module.
[12:36] <jakeio> Other than the standard loop of GNRMC, GNGGA, etc.
[12:37] <thasti> then have a try using a serial terminal with hex input (hTerm etc) first
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[12:45] <jakeio> OK. I got something back.
[12:45] <jakeio> It looks like this:
[12:45] <jakeio> ’bbbbb’b’’b’’r’’bbbbbbR’5)’9M’’q’q’q’q’’’’’’’’’’y’q’y’qy’’’5)’9M’’q’’’’’’’’’’’’’y’q’y’qy’’’5)’AMY’qq’q’q’q’’q’q’q’q’’q’’q’’’’q’q’q’q’’q’i’’5)’AMY’qq’q’’’q’’’’’q’q’’q’’q’q’’q’q’q
[12:45] <jakeio> ’’’’’’i’5)’AMY’qq’q’’’q’’’’’’q’q’’’’q’q’q’’q’’’’5)’1MY’qq’’’’5)’911’’’’’’’’’’y’’Y’9’’’5)’
[12:45] <jakeio> So... That's... useful...
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[12:45] <thasti> yes, should be hex as well
[12:46] <thasti> the ubx-protocol is completely binary, no plain text strings
[12:46] <jakeio> Yeah, I am now trying to get what each is. However, it's not working too well. Python's died on me, saying Unsupported characters.
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[12:48] <Darkside> jakeio: python 2 or 3?
[12:48] <jakeio> 2
[12:48] <jakeio> 2.7 me thinks.
[12:48] <Darkside> ok
[12:48] <jakeio> I can use Python 3 if necessary.
[12:48] <jakeio> I'm on a Pi so both are installed.
[12:48] <Darkside> nah
[13:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W9YJ-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W9YJ-11
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[13:46] <edmoore> I work in a copy-paste industry
[13:46] <edmoore> i don't know that the solution is
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[13:48] <gonzo__> firewall stackovereflow
[13:54] <AndyEsser> gonzo__: ¬¬
[13:54] <AndyEsser> SO is the Mos Eisley of programmers
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[13:56] <edmoore> gonzo__: my industry is not software
[13:57] <lz1dev> belly dancing?
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[14:05] <gonzo__> then it's 'saw and weld'?
[14:10] Nick change: OneMatthias -> OneM_Industries
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[15:12] <fab4space> wow 2$ shipped for a STM32F103C8T6 board 64k flash 20k sram
[15:12] <fab4space> http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=38249X983277&site=cnx-software.com&xs=1&isjs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fw%2Fwholesale-stm32f103c8t6.html&xguid=4454ff07cf396db27afce864ee36779a&xuuid=6850ce15e6f589faf7aa6c28b172e51f&xsessid=08d3747acc765b836fac830caac93934&xcreo=0&xed=0&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnx-software.com%2F2016%2F05%2F17%2Fbluepill-is-a-2-arduino-compatible-development-board-based-on-stmicro-stm32-mcu%2F&xtz=-120
[15:13] <fab4space> http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/05/17/bluepill-is-a-2-arduino-compatible-development-board-based-on-stmicro-stm32-mcu/
[15:13] <fab4space> nice for a hab controller :)
[15:19] <HA6NN> LZ1DEV, Hello, I saw you callsign on habhub tracker beside 669NT the NASA balloon, Did you hear it? May I know its frequency?
[15:23] <lz1dev> HA6NN: im just uploading hte position, not recv via radio
[15:25] <HA6NN> LZ1DEV: RRR GL 73
[15:26] <lz1dev> not 100% sure, but i tihnk uplink through satellite
[15:27] <HA6NN> I see.
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[16:37] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/U6sp2Zj
[16:37] <AndyEsser> aforementioned labrador humping a chihuahua
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[16:39] <Laurenceb_> is 669NT NASA?
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> very nice
[16:40] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: shame you don't have anything to plug the other end into :P
[16:40] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: thanks for that
[16:40] <AndyEsser> :P
[16:41] <adamgreig> any word on what'l happen?
[16:41] <AndyEsser> no word from UPS or RadioWorld yet
[16:41] <AndyEsser> last I heard from UPS they wanted photos and a bunch of info about the packaging
[16:41] <AndyEsser> and mentioned they need to arrange for an inspection
[16:41] <adamgreig> jeez
[16:41] <adamgreig> surprised they even delivered it looking so beat-up
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[16:42] <AndyEsser> Well I guess their mentality is deliver it - if it's not damaged then fine - if it is - then the supplier has to handl eit
[16:43] <mattbrejza> is it just a case of replacing that one part?
[16:43] <adamgreig> where "that one part" is a big colinear antenna,..
[16:43] <AndyEsser> ^
[16:43] <mattbrejza> oh right...
[16:44] <mattbrejza> i thought it was just the pole the antenna sat on
[16:44] <AndyEsser> mattbrejza: https://twitter.com/LeadHyperion/status/732885573136945152/photo/1
[16:44] <AndyEsser> nope - that's the actual antenna
[16:44] <mattbrejza> whoops
[16:45] <Vaizki_> :(
[16:46] <AndyEsser> it's put me in a foul mood :(
[16:46] <Vaizki_> they're not that fragile even, I dropped mine accidentally from the roof onto the lawn and it was unfazed
[16:46] <Vaizki_> didn't even bend a GP
[16:46] <AndyEsser> it's rated up to 140 MPH winds
[16:46] <adamgreig> they are tough fibreglass sticks
[16:46] <AndyEsser> they have had to have done something severe to basically snap it in half
[16:46] <adamgreig> literally would have to like.. drive over it, or dump a heavy weight on it or something
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[16:46] <adamgreig> yea
[16:46] <AndyEsser> like... drive over it with a forklift - which is what it looks like
[16:47] <Vaizki_> or drive a forklift / pallet into that sticking out from another pallet
[16:49] <AndyEsser> yea
[16:49] <AndyEsser> yea:(
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[16:49] <AndyEsser> I'm hoping RadioWorld will ship out a new one :(
[16:51] <Vaizki_> are you running LMR400 to the X50? :O
[16:51] <Vaizki_> or wth is that black sausage coming out of your Airspy Mini
[16:51] <AndyEsser> rg213
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[16:52] <Vaizki_> oh ok.. I'm still on Aircell 5...
[16:55] <AndyEsser> Vaizki_: also, is an RTL-SDR not an Airspy Mini
[16:55] <Vaizki_> what.. really :(
[16:55] <Vaizki_> ha yea it's different.. fooled me
[16:56] <AndyEsser> just looked at an airspy mini - I see where the confusion is from
[16:56] <Vaizki_> I have one between me and the imac
[16:56] <Vaizki_> and was still fooled..
[16:58] <AndyEsser> hmm... I have another N-type adapter here..
[16:58] Action: AndyEsser sticks the tiny 1/4 wave onto end of cable and throws it somewhere high
[16:59] <Vaizki_> 1/4 of what wave?
[17:01] <AndyEsser> well it's telescopic so has some variability - but seems to be good to be 1/4 wave for 434
[17:02] <Vaizki_> ah right..
[17:02] <AndyEsser> it's still terribad ;)
[17:02] <Vaizki_> you can also take your yagi to the loft
[17:02] <Vaizki_> :)
[17:02] <AndyEsser> haven't got a yagi
[17:03] <Vaizki_> hmmh ok I thought you were on a beach with a yagi at some point.
[17:03] <AndyEsser> ha, not me
[17:03] <Vaizki_> you islanders all sound the same to me
[17:03] <AndyEsser> sounds good though :)
[17:03] <Vaizki_> ;)
[17:03] <AndyEsser> Thanks...
[17:03] <AndyEsser> might order a nice big Yagi - although without El/Az it seems a bit pointless?
[17:04] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> just some fun info on the X50/X300 and many like them, many thinks the bottom thingies on the antenna is groundplane, its not, its decouplers to keep rf from the freder cable
[17:04] <Vaizki_> I stand corrected then :)
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[17:05] <AndyEsser> SA6BSS-Mike|2: so no connecting to it think it's groundplane then?
[17:05] <Vaizki_> ?
[17:05] <Vaizki_> you don't connect anything to a groundplane.. :)
[17:06] <AndyEsser> Sorry I meant, in terms of finding somewhere you could potentially attach onto, thinking it'd connect to the ground of the radio
[17:06] <AndyEsser> if you needed to... for some reason
[17:06] <Vaizki_> the big boys like BBC use the real ground as a ground plane.. we must make do with a virtual ground formed by ground plane radials
[17:07] <Vaizki_> oh it'll connect to the radio ground allright since it hooks up to the coax shielding
[17:07] <Vaizki_> unless you have some kind of rf coupling isolation in between
[17:08] <AndyEsser> yep - just seeing that groundplane in electrical/electronics is different between Antenna and PCBs
[17:08] <AndyEsser> my mistake
[17:09] <Vaizki_> not a big one.. but with a mag whip antenna the car roof is your GP
[17:09] <Vaizki_> so that's sorted... and that's why the antenna doesn't work so great when used indoors for testing
[17:10] <Vaizki_> at least my ebay jobbie is next to worthless without a metal sheet to stick it on
[17:12] <Vaizki_> that was for transmit though.. from a 817ND.. actually not sure how much it affects receiving but I assume similarly
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[17:36] <AndyEsser> Am I correct in thinking that usually, the more directional an antenna the higher the gain of it?
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[17:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-14 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-14
[17:46] <mfa298> more gain would tend to mean more directionality, but check what they're saying.
[17:46] <mfa298> some will give gains in dBd and some in dBi
[17:46] <AndyEsser> What's dBd? I've seen dBi
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[17:47] <mfa298> relative to a dipole, so something like 2.1dBi (from memory)
[17:47] <AndyEsser> 2.15dBi for a dipole according to page I'm on
[17:48] <AndyEsser> so if an antenna also had 2.15dBi
[17:48] <AndyEsser> then it would have 0dBd?
[17:48] <AndyEsser> err..
[17:48] <AndyEsser> 1dBd?
[17:48] <mfa298> good manufacturers should also provide the gain plots
[17:48] <Ian_> 0dB
[17:49] <AndyEsser> Next question
[17:49] <Ian_> [18:03] <Vaizki_> you islanders all sound the same to me
[17:49] <AndyEsser> if I wanted to pick up a Horizontally Polarised signal with something like a Yagi
[17:49] <AndyEsser> the elements of the Yagi would be Vertical?
[17:49] <AndyEsser> and vice versa?
[17:49] <fsphil> it should match the signal
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[17:50] <mfa298> that had me asking that question as well, 0dBd is what would make sense as you get to just add and subtract them so 0dB is no gain.
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[17:50] <Ian_> Obviously Vaizki_ you just ain't good with faces or voices. Says the guy who comes from the land of 1000 lakes; well 88,877 or so at least
[17:50] <AndyEsser> mfa298: the Foundation book says that to get the signal strength (in TX for eg) you just do TX Power * Antenna Gain
[17:50] <AndyEsser> which is why I thought 1
[17:50] <AndyEsser> but it did seem to not like "scientific units of dB instead of W"
[17:51] <mattbrejza> youll need to convert dBi to a linear quantity
[17:51] <AndyEsser> too much maths
[17:51] <AndyEsser> :P
[17:51] <mfa298> polarisation tends to refer to the electrical component which will be the same as the elements (so TV antennas are ususally Horizontal polarisaton), VHF colinears are usually vertical polarisation
[17:51] <Ian_> the dBd and dBi specify the reference, but lets assume the ref is isotropic.
[17:52] <AndyEsser> mfa298: so if the Yagi elements were vertical, it would be referred to as Vertical polarisation? (Although by my understanding the signal istelf would be horizontal?)
[17:52] <mfa298> (*down south we've got vertical polarisation on the TV signals as well as Horizontal due to the French - apparently they don't like our TV)
[17:52] <AndyEsser> bloody french
[17:53] <mfa298> it's to do with how the electical field goes.
[17:53] <fsphil> the main transmitters here use horizontal, the relays use vertical
[17:53] <Ian_> 8W is 9db so stick that up an antenna with a further 9dB of gain gives 18dB which is 64W (effective) down the bore sight
[17:53] <mfa298> so a yagi with the elements flat is horizontal, if it's rotated 90 degrees it's vertical polarisation
[17:54] <AndyEsser> Ian_: ie 8x8?
[17:54] <AndyEsser> mfa298: cheers
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[17:54] <mfa298> the simple rule of thumb is that 3dB is the same as doubling the signal, so 3dB gain means you x2 the signal
[17:55] <Ian_> That's about right. Stick in -3dB for path loss and another -3dB for the crap length of coax and you are back to 12dB or 16W
[17:55] <Ian_> so dB is really veeeery convenient because you get to add and subtract all the wriggly bits
[17:56] <mfa298> you might find http://greatscottgadgets.com/sdr/3/ a useful introduction to dB
[17:56] <AndyEsser> cheers
[17:57] <AndyEsser> I always knew it was a log scale - but never knew how it _actually_ applies in the real world, as it were
[17:58] <AndyEsser> ok, so 3dB is x2 and 6dB would be x4?
[17:58] <Ian_> It's really very easy once you get over the 'this is different' feeling and certainly very useful.
[17:58] <mfa298> gains in things should probably just be dB rather than dBi or dBd, but marketing ...
[17:59] <Ian_> Vertical antenna are usually specified as dBi with the 1/4 wave whip being about as near as they get and yagi as dBd as it's based on a dipole.
[18:00] <Ian_> The trouble comes when the marketeers start specifying a yagi with a gain of x dB or x dBi because they are then just nonsense and out to gull us
[18:01] <Ian_> The ARRL took a big stance on that form of marketing a good few years ago, but what the situation is today is, is anyone's guess
[18:01] <Ian_> It's a moral compass thing
[18:01] <Ian_> As mfa298 says gain is just dB.
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[18:02] <Ian_> In the same way that the output power of a small tx is rated in dBm (mW), where 0dBm is 1mW
[18:03] <Ian_> Time for tea
[18:05] <AndyEsser> Ok, my confusion is dying down slightly as I thought dB was an actual unit of _something_ but I see it's just orders of magnitude in a ratio - ie 20:2 is 1 order of magnitude (1 Bel = 10dB)
[18:07] <mfa298> dB is just a ratio, but then it can be referenced to something, dBm and dbW being common (milli watt and watt)
[18:07] <AndyEsser> yep
[18:07] <AndyEsser> just got to that bit in the video :)
[18:08] <mfa298> so a lot of the license scheules are given as dBW where it's referenced to 1W
[18:09] <dbrooke> the quoted gain of a colinear will be its gain at the horizon, typically you'll get a pattern like http://procom.dk/images/products/2000x1955-0-0-280x274-udstraalling-3-db-b-e.jpg
[18:10] <dbrooke> so you'll get particularly poor performance at 30° elevation and overhead
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[18:11] <dbrooke> though that will be somewhat compensated by the relative shorter range
[18:17] <AndyEsser> ok, so equal power is 0dB
[18:17] <AndyEsser> x2 is ~3dB
[18:17] <AndyEsser> x4 is ~6db
[18:18] <AndyEsser> am I right that x10 is ~10dB?
[18:18] <AndyEsser> - the ~
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[18:19] <Ian_> Yes
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[18:20] <AndyEsser> ie just 10log(N)
[18:20] <adamgreig> 10log10(power ratio)
[18:20] <adamgreig> which is also 20log10(voltage ratio)
[18:20] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: the log10 was implied - apologies
[18:21] <mfa298> at which point you've probably just done the most advnaced maths in all of the exams
[18:21] <AndyEsser> this isn't for the exams - this is just so I know and understand
[18:21] <AndyEsser> or at least, move towards understanding
[18:22] <AndyEsser> So next stupid question (you wouldn't have thought I had an A Level in Maths)
[18:22] <AndyEsser> how would I go from dB back to N then?
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[18:23] <adamgreig> 10^(x / 10)
[18:23] <adamgreig> where x is in dB
[18:24] <adamgreig> (that will get you back to a power ratio, div 20 instead to get a voltage ratio - this is all just because power goes with voltage squared)
[18:24] <AndyEsser> that's wat I thought...
[18:24] <AndyEsser> what*
[18:24] <AndyEsser> o wait
[18:24] <adamgreig> it's watt you thought?
[18:24] <AndyEsser> muppet
[18:25] <AndyEsser> had my /10 in the wrong place in my spreadsheet
[18:25] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: funny
[18:25] <AndyEsser> so funny it hertz
[18:27] <mfa298> those puns might be on the wrong wavelength for some
[18:27] <fsphil> you have gained so much
[18:29] <AndyEsser> the frequency of puns in this channel is a bit low though
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[18:32] <AndyEsser> so I was looking at a Yagi earlier, and it had a gain of ~16dB
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[18:32] <AndyEsser> so that actually translates to quite a lot of power
[18:33] <adamgreig> but a very narrow beam
[18:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> be careful there is no actual increase in power at all, its the power density that has changed
[18:33] <AndyEsser> right gotcha
[18:33] <AndyEsser> it's still the same amount of power radiated
[18:34] <AndyEsser> but if I stand 10 metres away, from an Omni I'll get X
[18:34] <AndyEsser> and if I stand 10 metres away on the horizon in the direction of the Yagi for example)
[18:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yes, but the Effective power has gone up
[18:34] <AndyEsser> I'll get that gain increas
[18:34] <AndyEsser> s/get/observe
[18:34] <Ian_> You will get the effect of a gain increase
[18:35] <AndyEsser> that makes sense obviously
[18:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Which is why the term Effective Isotropic Radiated Power EIRP comes from
[18:35] <AndyEsser> the antenna doesn't just magically get more power into the signal
[18:35] <mfa298> but only if your stood in front of the yagi, if you stood to the side of the yagi you'd see less power than from the omni
[18:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> that sright its a passive dvice
[18:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> device *
[18:35] <AndyEsser> mfa298: that's why I said in the direction of the yagi (meaning along the pointy bit
[18:35] <AndyEsser> )
[18:36] <Ian_> The other thing, yagi with gain of 16dB? dBd or dBi? once you get to 12dBd to 14dBd you will notice that you are getting into diminishing returns territory with a yagi.
[18:36] <AndyEsser> dBi
[18:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> In terms of length yes, but then you start putting them in pairs or quads
[18:37] <Ian_> So 16dBd is about as far as you get then you have to start stacking for another 3dB and baying for a further 3dB minus the losses of course
[18:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Indeed
[18:37] <Ian_> Ah well we are all describing the same phenomena
[18:37] <Ian_> Lots of ££
[18:37] <AndyEsser> so the 10el yagi has a gain of 14.8dBi
[18:38] <AndyEsser> 15el yagi has a gain of 13.1dBi
[18:38] <AndyEsser> err, sorry - those are the other way around
[18:38] <AndyEsser> the actual gain difference between those isn't _that_ high
[18:38] <Ian_> Yes, but subtract that difference between dBd and dBi 2.1 and then you will have the real dBd figure
[18:39] <Ian_> Then the comparison with the honest or more accurate suppliers (it's the marketing dept) is less rosy
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[18:40] <Ian_> Does that make sense?
[18:40] <AndyEsser> so when comparing yagis - I should convert it all to dBd and then compare?
[18:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> So long as you compare like with like
[18:41] <Ian_> You shouldn't have to. It's the convention that yagi are described with reference to the basic dipole
[18:41] <AndyEsser> right got you
[18:41] <Ian_> As Geoff ^^ says, but unscrupulous advertisers fudge to gain sales.
[18:41] <AndyEsser> so to get dBi to dBd it is just subtract 2.1? because dBd is approximately dBi
[18:42] <Ian_> As a newby you will be looking for the most gain for your ££ and they know it
[18:42] <AndyEsser> approximately 2.1 dBi
[18:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Not sure that the convention hasn't changed over the years as its difficult to compare a co-linear with a dipole
[18:42] <Ian_> Yes
[18:42] <AndyEsser> so it is literally just to make the number bigger? (as you say as a marketing thing)
[18:42] <AndyEsser> look bigger*
[18:42] <Ian_> if they cite the gain as simple dB ask them if that is dBi or dBd
[18:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Agree to that
[18:42] <Ian_> YES hate marketing tyupes
[18:43] <Ian_> If they don't know, hesitate or say it doesn't make any difference, shop elsewhere
[18:43] <AndyEsser> o good lord... hadn't looked at the length the 15el Yagi
[18:43] <AndyEsser> not sure I could even fit it in my car
[18:43] <Vaizki_> I'd trade 1-2 dBmarketing for a respected brand name...
[18:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Nope not easily!
[18:44] <Ian_> Might not fit across your garden
[18:44] <AndyEsser> 1.19 for the 10el
[18:44] <AndyEsser> 2.245m for the 15el
[18:44] <AndyEsser> but only £10 between the two
[18:44] <Vaizki_> 7 elem should do it for mobile?
[18:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://www.f9ft.com/pdf/220938e.pdf Is about as big as you would want to go
[18:44] <SIbot> In real units: 9 ft = 2.74 m
[18:44] <AndyEsser> haha
[18:44] <Ian_> The ZL specials have a shorter boom length
[18:44] <AndyEsser> www.f2.74m.com
[18:44] <AndyEsser> :P
[18:45] <fsphil> never change SIbot
[18:46] <AndyEsser> not sure the larger is worth it based on hassle of size, and not that much greater gain from the 10el
[18:46] <AndyEsser> but again - until I either buy a rotator/elevator or build my own - not much point me getting a Yagi
[18:46] <Ian_> Diminishing returns?
[18:46] <AndyEsser> although my mind is telling me bigger is always better :)
[18:47] <Ian_> These days an old windscreen wiper motor (60rpm) and some gearing 80:1 will turn a house
[18:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Depends on range - when tracking the last flight fram daveake my bem positions hardly altered as I was manually adjusting the 868 aerial
[18:48] <AndyEsser> Ian_: yea, I'd like to make my own
[18:48] <Ian_> The problem with having lots of gain is the decreasing beam width when searching for stations using the same type of antenna
[18:48] <AndyEsser> Rotator is a must I guess - but elevation not so much?
[18:48] <Upu> you don't need el
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[18:49] <Upu> hi Lunar
[18:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup elevation really is only needed for sat. working
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> want to see the antenna news?
[18:49] <Ian_> These days an Arduino and motor drivers can just about sort you.
[18:49] <AndyEsser> which polarisation do people typically mount their yagi's for hab tracking?
[18:49] <daveake> v
[18:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Verical or use a crossed aerial
[18:50] <daveake> 'cos that's the same as the hab, on average :)
[18:50] <AndyEsser> I guess that makes sense if I'd thought about it...
[18:50] <Ian_> Traditionally FM is vertical and SSB horizontal for Ham working
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> how about circular?
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[18:50] <AndyEsser> Ian_: yep read that in the Foundation Now book
[18:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Hence the crossed aerials
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[18:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> for circular working
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> QFH for GPS: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDOUNTbGgyNDVoZ28/view
[18:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> 3dB loss if the signal is all vertical or Horizontal
[18:51] <Ian_> I work V SSB and so if other stations join the net I explain that we are working Vertical, it saves a lot of misunderstandings
[18:51] <Ian_> Why? Cheapskate and the other guys too
[18:52] <dbrooke> talking of crossed yagis, years ago at my parents house we had some with on-board relays to select RHCP or LHCP thus only needing a single feeder/masthead LNA but I've failed to find such a thing recently, anyone know of anything?
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[18:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> As cheap to run two co-ax's and then have the ability to select and play with circular/elliptical or V/H without the worry of stuck relays
[18:53] <Ian_> The relays would pop in a different length of coax to change the phase difference
[18:54] <Ian_> Super: one question and three related answers to different aspects of the question
[18:54] <Ian_> Could you ask for more?
[18:54] <Ian_> Would you want to :)
[18:57] <dbrooke> it was just nice to only need one LNA and also to not have to faff with getting the phasing right but I take your point re the flexibility of separate feeds
[18:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Would make sense with the more recent Tonna crossed aerials where each one is at 45° which avoids having to use a glassfibre boom
[18:59] <Ian_> Indeed the phasing could all be done in a box under the desktop, if you have one. Giving infinite serviceability and only two coax downleads
[18:59] <AndyEsser> my life would be made so much easier if I could mount all my antennae at work...
[19:00] <AndyEsser> hmm
[19:00] <AndyEsser> *ponders*
[19:00] <dbrooke> yes, these were mounted at 45°
[19:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> but it also means that that V/H isn't easily available.
[19:00] <Ian_> Ah, I've just lost the benefit of your LNA
[19:00] <dbrooke> they were mainly for satellite so the 3dB loss for V/H terrestrial wasn't a major concern
[19:01] <Ian_> dbrooke that difference between V and H is supposed to be 13dB not 3dB
[19:01] <Ian_> Theoretically!
[19:01] <dbrooke> and in fact some terrestrial signals aren't strictly V or H by the time they arrive anyway
[19:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> That is actually the case with a lot of HAB signals on the couple of occasions I ve checked
[19:02] <dbrooke> Ian_: I meant 3dB between linear and circular
[19:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> but its to much faff trying to track polarisation so I stick to circular!
[19:03] <Ian_> Fair comment
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[19:06] <AndyEsser> SO-239 is the socket equivalent of a PL-259?
[19:06] <russss> yes, that particular naming was standardised by masochists
[19:06] <AndyEsser> heh
[19:06] <adamgreig> SO-238
[19:06] <adamgreig> and PL-259
[19:06] <AndyEsser> I kind of get SO vs PL
[19:06] <AndyEsser> but the different numbers
[19:06] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[19:06] <adamgreig> uhm sorry
[19:06] <dbrooke> so I still have the rotators and LNAs from that setup (the antennas were damaged/lost when my parents moved house) and was looking for antennas to re-instate it here
[19:07] <adamgreig> SO-239 indeed
[19:07] <adamgreig> yes it's awful
[19:07] <dbrooke> AndyEsser: best ignored anyway if possible
[19:07] <AndyEsser> according to wiki page, no good above 100MHz?
[19:07] <adamgreig> ehhhh
[19:07] <russss> it was a military thing, I believe. That naming scheme alone is a good reason to be in favour of world peace.
[19:07] <adamgreig> very commonly used by hams up to 70cm
[19:08] <AndyEsser> hope so, since the 434MHz Yagi's I'm looking at have SO-239
[19:08] <russss> yeah for some reason hams like it
[19:09] <AndyEsser> n-types better?
[19:09] <AndyEsser> for everything?
[19:09] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:09] <adamgreig> much
[19:09] <russss> PL/SO has a slightly higher power rating than N-type
[19:09] <adamgreig> and for smaller connectors and lower powers, SMA, BNC, etc all nice ish
[19:09] <adamgreig> I like SMA for a lot of things and N for anything that desperately needs to be high power
[19:09] <russss> but the power rating of N-type is higher than the maximum limit for a full license in the UK so I'm entirely indifferent to that.
[19:09] <AndyEsser> yea, I quite like SMA but haven't wired one up myself yet
[19:09] <adamgreig> but that's not much given I'm not so inclined to ragchew with hams
[19:10] <dbrooke> if you must use a PL-259 to connect to the antenna try to get a clamp one (like the N connectors) rather than the screw-in and solder type
[19:10] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Its quite interesting comapre a ragchew with a discussion on here as well ;-)
[19:10] <adamgreig> heh
[19:11] <russss> I've standardised on N-type and SMA and I have adaptors to everything else
[19:11] <adamgreig> yea this ^
[19:11] <AndyEsser> sounds like a good plan
[19:11] <adamgreig> though you do end up needing a lot of adapters
[19:11] <AndyEsser> my basket on RadioWorld currently includes a Yagi and 100m of coax...
[19:11] <AndyEsser> must not hit buy
[19:11] <dbrooke> N and SMA here too, but also BNC for patch leads
[19:12] <Geoff-G8DHE_> How long a run do you need ? 100M is a lot !
[19:12] <AndyEsser> Geoff-G8DHE_: gives me plenty to make shorter cables as and when I need
[19:12] <adamgreig> what type of coax? you can probably do a lot better buying a made-up patch with the connectors you want
[19:12] <adamgreig> on ebay
[19:12] <adamgreig> for a few pounds
[19:12] <Geoff-G8DHE_> What size are you ordering ?
[19:12] <AndyEsser> rg58
[19:12] <adamgreig> saves the stress and hassle of terminating it yourself
[19:12] <adamgreig> also rg58 is pretty pants for anything more than a few metres or few hundred mhz
[19:12] <AndyEsser> someone else in here recommended the just DIY approach last night ;)
[19:12] <adamgreig> heh
[19:13] <AndyEsser> but I don't need any of that stuff right now
[19:13] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Ah OK rg58 is reasonable for patch and short runs but for a perment aerial install something thicker is worth while.
[19:14] <AndyEsser> Geoff-G8DHE_: the run I have for the X50 (*cries*) is rg213
[19:14] <Geoff-G8DHE_> More like it!
[19:14] <fsphil> rip
[19:14] <adamgreig> 213 fairly fine for x50, how long?
[19:14] <AndyEsser> 10m
[19:14] <adamgreig> s'fine
[19:14] <AndyEsser> I should've gotten 20m
[19:14] <AndyEsser> 10m is fine into my office
[19:14] <AndyEsser> but was hoping to run it through the kitchen into the dining room so I can work at my desk
[19:14] Action: AndyEsser comes up with plan to pipe sound from PC to laptop
[19:15] <fsphil> vnc
[19:15] <AndyEsser> fsphil: heh
[19:15] <fsphil> how I usually control the station at home when I'm chasing
[19:15] <AndyEsser> but 10m is also plenty to get to my lounge chair on the decking
[19:15] <AndyEsser> so hopefully next time I'm tracking something it's a nice day :)
[19:16] <dbrooke> with the rtl you could in theory stream its I/Q from, say, a Pi to your laptop
[19:17] <dbrooke> ethernet has less loss than RF coax 8-)
[19:17] <AndyEsser> dbrooke: yea, had toyed with the idea of putting a Pi in a waterproof housing at the base of the antenna, and then just network cable into the house
[19:17] <AndyEsser> Pi + SDR for each antenna I then add
[19:17] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:17] <russss> ethernet is also easier to get inside the house
[19:17] <AndyEsser> and can carry power over it to power the Pi
[19:17] <dbrooke> it's something I've been meaning to try
[19:18] <dbrooke> I just ordered some antennas and a mast-head box today
[19:19] <dbrooke> not sure if the box is suitable but it was cheap
[19:19] <dbrooke> and hope UPS don't treat my antennas like they did yours 8-(
[19:19] <AndyEsser> please stop reminding me :(
[19:20] <AndyEsser> that'd be my only concer with future orders with Radio World is their choice of UPS as a courier
[19:20] <dbrooke> I sympathise really
[19:20] <AndyEsser> although a lot of people have been saying UPS are usually fine
[19:20] <dbrooke> I wouldn't say UPS are necessarily any worse than others
[19:20] <AndyEsser> Shitty Link?
[19:20] <AndyEsser> :P
[19:20] <dbrooke> Yodel?
[19:21] <AndyEsser> I might just go and pick up stuff in person next time
[19:22] <AndyEsser> only 1.5 hours away
[19:22] <dbrooke> but sometimes it's as much down to poor packing, CPC packed a 5l liquid container in a large box with some ICs in a bit of foam and a few air filled bags
[19:22] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Mumm, maker sure they do actually have it in stock in that case, there stock control is a bit dissapointing
[19:22] <dbrooke> you can gues how straight the IC pins were when that arrived
[19:22] <AndyEsser> ha
[19:24] <dbrooke> they did replace them without argument but the delay was frustrating
[19:24] <AndyEsser> RW haven't gotten back to me yet :(
[19:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> My last order last Sep. was for some aerials, all in stock, took the money, delivered one aerial, with hand written note "to follow"
[19:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> chased after a couple of weeks waiting for stock, right .....
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[19:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> chased a month later ... waiting for stock ....
[19:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> fnally arrived after I kicked up a fuss and gave them a bad review in March ...
[19:27] <AndyEsser> hmm, any recommendations for alternatives?
[19:27] <adamgreig> ML&S
[19:27] <AndyEsser> and are Diamond are a good antenna manufacturer?
[19:27] <adamgreig> yea
[19:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> For Tonna ML&S are the agent
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[19:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> all others in the country go thru them.
[19:28] <Geoff-G8DHE_> so best to try to find out who the agent for each contry is for a givem make.
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[19:29] <Ian_> Moonraker are not bad for antennas
[19:29] <AndyEsser> I need a house out in the middle of nowhere
[19:30] <Geoff-G8DHE_> No you don't suffer all the QRM like the rest of us ;-)
[19:30] <AndyEsser> QRM?
[19:30] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Man made interference
[19:30] <AndyEsser> ah
[19:30] <Geoff-G8DHE_> QRN = noise
[19:30] <Ian_> PL259 as mfa298 said yesterday are a bit like banana plugs with shielding. Above around 100MHz their impedance becomes 'variable'
[19:30] <AndyEsser> well it was more so I could dig a hole in the garden, and have a big ass antenna mount
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[19:31] <AndyEsser> Geoff-G8DHE_: cheers for the info
[19:31] <Geoff-G8DHE_> trouble with that is big aerial poor ADSL ...
[19:31] <AndyEsser> yea...
[19:33] Nick change: Wiktor_ -> Wiktor
[19:35] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff_G8DHE
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[19:47] <AndyEsser> d'oh... 22/26 on the third test paper :(
[19:48] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[19:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SCOOBY - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SCOOBY
[19:52] <mfa298> to prove the PL259 == Banana plug, I have used a long bit of wire with a 4mm banana plug direct into the radio as a HF receive option.
[19:52] <adamgreig> That's a pass right AndyEsser
[19:53] <Ian_> Some Somerkamp(?) HF rigs in the early 70's used RCA connectors for 50 Ohm antenna connectors = phono plugs!
[19:54] <mfa298> my TS2000 has a RCA socket for a HF receive antenna
[19:58] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: yea, still a pass
[19:58] <AndyEsser> 19/26 is the pass line
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[20:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AGGIE-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AGGIE-2
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[21:39] <tridor> hello, Is there a goto GPS tracking app for Android people have had success with?
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Do you mean to load on a phone and then track remotely?
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> The position of the phone?
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> The general position is that that is very unreliable. Cellular network may cut out at a hundred meters or two altitude as cell-nets are pointed horiontally, and you may not get a lock on the way down.
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> And coverage actually on the ground is much, much worse than at head height
[21:41] <tridor> So the GSM phone can send it's position when the payload comes back down, I have a radio tracker too of course
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Ah, that's not completely unreasonable.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> And no, sorry.
[21:42] <mfa298> there are some cheap sms/gps boxes you can put on the payload as a backup, although general channel experience suggests they only work ~50% of the time
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> Be very careful.
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> Many of the cheap SMS/GPS boxes do not do GPS
[21:44] <tridor> I'll experiment with some apps and the phone, it's a backup for the radio to increase the chance of recovery
[21:45] <mfa298> you probably don't want to use an expensive phone for that, if you lose it it could cost a bit.
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[21:46] <mfa298> I think most people here who want a backup use a 2nd radio tracker
[21:46] <fsphil> the usual fault seems to be it loosing gps lock
[21:46] <Ian_> Tridor A thought, how about a second tracker, it could work out cheaper in the long run. Either that or is there anyone that might like to launch a tracker on your balloon. Opportunity for them and insurance for yourself. :)
[21:46] <fsphil> and not regaining it before it lands, when it might be out of gsm signal range
[21:47] <fsphil> the gsm modules in phones/gsm trackers tend to not work at high altitude
[21:47] <AndyEsser> speaking of second trackers - did Ben ever manage to launch his?
[21:48] <fsphil> as a backup though, it's probably worth having one. there has been incidents where the main radio failed and a payload was recovered with the gsm backup
[21:48] <fsphil> pretty rare though
[21:49] <tridor> It's our first launch so I wouldn't want to risk anyone else's hardware on board :-/ Probably go with gsm as backup this time and see what we learn
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[21:49] <fsphil> yeah. certainly no harm having it
[21:50] <tridor> Thanks everyone
[21:50] <Ian_> The point being that anyone flying with you will be hoping the same thing. They would be hoping that you were the backup.
[21:52] <tridor> Thanks Ian, we'll give it some thought
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[22:01] <arjunnaha> Well I was going to use an iPhone to get the benefit of the good camera and the backup tracker aka Find my iPhone
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[22:04] <JC___> Hello, is anyone here?
[22:04] <mfa298> if you're using a phone as a backup be prepared that you might lose it (same for everything in the payload)
[22:04] <mfa298> JC___: lots of people, some might even be awake
[22:05] <JC___> Hi there! OK, I was wondering if anyone could kindly offer some advice regarding cameras
[22:06] <mfa298> best bet is to ask your question, then hopefully someone that can answer it is around
[22:07] <JC___> I was looking at the 'Go Pro Hero'. Seems decent. It has a time-lapse mode. Does anyone know if this could work for HABing?
[22:08] <JC___> i.e. would the battery last this long, and would an SD card be able to handle that much data?
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[22:08] <fsphil> gopro's have been used a lot in HAB flights before
[22:08] <mfa298> people have used go pros on flights, possibly with an external battery pack
[22:08] <fsphil> in video mode the battery tends not to last an entire flight
[22:09] <fsphil> dnno about timelapse, it might be different
[22:09] <arjunnaha> The Hero's are stuck in a case, so you can't use a BacPac and the front will cloud up
[22:09] <mfa298> one commong bit of advice is don't use a case in a hab flight
[22:09] <fsphil> yeah, no case. they're just annoying
[22:10] <mfa298> and don't use the de-mist strips (they cause more issue than the solve at altitude)
[22:11] <mfa298> from what others have said, if you fly a gopro in a case it might be stuck in it after the flight as well! (any air gets sucked out at altitude making it very hard to open after landing)
[22:11] <fsphil> arjunnaha: the battery bacpac comes with a bigger case
[22:11] <fsphil> yeah. the seal is like a valve, it lets air out but not back in
[22:11] <fsphil> we had a lot of trouble getting them open again
[22:12] <JC___> Thanks for the advice about cases. I would only be able to afford the 'Go Pro HERO' model, not one of the later models. Does anyone have any experience/ knowledge of this one in particular?
[22:12] <arjunnaha> I use the bigger cases when transporting my Hero 4's but the entry level Hero as far as I am aware is permanently stuck in a case
[22:13] <JC___> (The BacPac seems to be for the HERO4 Black, HERO4 Silver, HERO3+ and HERO3 only)
[22:13] <fsphil> aah. it's changed since I got mine
[22:13] <arjunnaha> "With the GoPro HERO, HERO+, and HERO+ LCD the camera does not come out of the Waterproof Housing, it's purposely integrated."
[22:13] <fsphil> mine is the old HD Hero
[22:14] <arjunnaha> Ah :) the original HD Hero
[22:14] <arjunnaha> GoPro have come out with a new HERO range
[22:15] <arjunnaha> When I say range I mean a few entry level products lol
[22:17] <JC___> Mmm... are we saying then that the entry level HERO should *not* be used?
[22:18] <fsphil> no, just don't think anyone here's flown one
[22:19] <arjunnaha> By virtue of the fact that the case can't be removed and battery life extended, no, the entry level HERO can't be used.
[22:19] <mfa298> if you wanted timelapse you could look at a canon camera with chdk
[22:19] <mfa298> which is what used to get used a fair bit
[22:19] <arjunnaha> You could use a Pi cam
[22:20] <fsphil> the case on the hero might be fine. depends how it's put together
[22:21] <mfa298> arjunnaha: that assumes you have a Pi in the payload - not everyone uses Pi. You may also find GoPro/Canon gets you better pictures.
[22:23] <arjunnaha> Yes completely, just an option :)
[22:23] <JC___> Thanks for all your advice. There is another 'cheap' GoPro. That's the HERO Session. There doesn't appear to be a 'case' as such, see https://youtu.be/mqyVlmPkYH0
[22:23] <fsphil> I've used a canon before. chdk is annoying but it did the job
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[22:24] <mfa298> I'm now trying to remember if Chris ever flew his chdk ssdv camera
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> eeek GoPro
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> I hate those things
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> GoError
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[23:02] <Ian_> arjunnaha, your grey beard is showing already :)
[23:07] <russss> https://twitter.com/CanberraDSN/status/733067507154571264
[23:07] <russss> (more pics in replies)
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[23:32] <SpeedEvil> http://www.zgrethphoto.com/Learn/Exp/Tut/SpaceX
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[00:00] --- Thu May 19 2016