highaltitude.log.20160517

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[08:05] <AndyEsser> "Your N-type to SMA adapters are shipped - expected by June 24th"
[08:06] <fsphil> actual snail mail
[08:06] <AndyEsser> "Economy Delivery from Outside UK"
[08:06] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[08:06] <AndyEsser> wonder if there's anywhere I can drive to that'll have them
[08:08] <gonzo_m> maplin?
[08:08] <AndyEsser> sssh that's a dirty word ;)
[08:09] <gonzo_m> needs must
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[08:09] <AndyEsser> hmm... maplin website isn't looking hopeful :(
[08:10] <AndyEsser> might have to be CPC or someone on next day
[08:10] <gonzo_m> rs trade counter
[08:10] <nsh> planning a HA balloon flight for August probably. just making regulatory checklist: CAA application with 28 days notice for the flight plan, and OFCOM to clear any radio usage
[08:10] <nsh> am i missing anything / anyone?
[08:10] <daveake> I think Maplin do have them
[08:10] <gonzo_m> or just ebay from a uk supplier who does next day
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[08:10] <nsh> (landowner and local airfield coordination of course)
[08:10] <fsphil> nsh: unless you're doing something very unusual, you don't need to talk to ofcom
[08:10] <daveake> Ofcom? No. What radio?
[08:11] <nsh> i'll be doing as many unusual things as i can imagine
[08:11] <fsphil> more specific?
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[08:13] <nsh> well, APRS telemetry certainly
[08:13] <nsh> not sure if that requires permission or not
[08:13] <fsphil> what frequency/power?
[08:14] <nsh> 144-148MHz, not sure what power is needed for good coverage
[08:14] <nsh> depends on likely flight path i guess
[08:14] <fsphil> not allowed sadly
[08:14] <fsphil> you can't use amateur radio frequencies from the air
[08:15] <fsphil> *in the UK
[08:15] <nsh> sounds like something to negotiate
[08:15] <nsh> people think you can't do a lot of things because they've never tried negotiating
[08:15] <fsphil> there's a long history of people trying
[08:16] <fsphil> not saying you shouldn't try
[08:16] <AndyEsser> gah, CPC only have Male-to-Male or Female-to-Female adaptors
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[08:17] Action: nsh nods
[08:18] <fsphil> but in the UK there is very little reason to use APRS
[08:18] <nsh> what's a better alternative?
[08:18] <fsphil> the normal method is to send positions via rtty on the licence exempt 434mhz frequency
[08:18] <nsh> at the least it would be nice to have reasonably accurate alt/long/lat to put with the photography
[08:18] <nsh> ah
[08:18] <fsphil> which has the advantage of faster updates than aprs
[08:18] <nsh> cool
[08:19] <fsphil> but it is lower power. but that doesn't seem to be an issue
[08:19] <gonzo_m> and gives altitude
[08:19] Action: nsh nods
[08:19] <fsphil> slightly more complicated receiver required too, but still not too bad
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[08:19] <gonzo_m> 10mw ism is good to the horizon
[08:20] <gonzo_m> and far lower DC req. so lighter payload
[08:20] <daveake> nsh You can try to get permission to fly ham radios. Others have. It's always failed.
[08:20] Action: nsh nods
[08:20] <fsphil> ofcom are no fun
[08:20] <daveake> Also, not many receivers.
[08:21] <gonzo_m> and the terrestrial traffis to fight with
[08:21] <nsh> just assumed it was somewhat standard as i saw lots of nice telem traces from balloon voyages over europe and the americas
[08:21] <fsphil> yeah it's common outside the UK
[08:21] <nsh> yay for exceptionalism \o/
[08:21] <daveake> Some countries in Europe allow it; UK and some others don't
[08:22] <daveake> USA allows it hence almost all the balloons guys there fly APRS
[08:22] Action: nsh nods
[08:22] <gonzo_m> google habhub tracking
[08:22] <daveake> Also why we innovate and they don't
[08:22] <fsphil> annoying, but it did allow us to develop a new system which has some advantages
[08:22] <daveake> (simplification)
[08:22] <fsphil> not being APRS for example :)
[08:22] <daveake> hah
[08:22] <fsphil> (APRS at the protocol level is awful)
[08:23] <daveake> having dealved inside your APRS code fsphil, I agree. APRS is weird.
[08:24] <AndyEsser> daveake: sure it's not just fsphil's code? :P
[08:24] <fsphil> am I developer, or am I code
[08:25] <AndyEsser> one can not exist without t'other
[08:26] <daveake> hah no AndyEsser :)
[08:27] <daveake> I'd previously tried to figure out APRS on my own
[08:27] <daveake> Simple. Straightforward. Obvious. It's none of those.
[08:29] <AndyEsser> heh
[08:29] <AndyEsser> I wish I'd joined this community back when you guys were all going through this and getting habhug going and what not
[08:30] <gonzo_m> hacked and fiddled as it was based on somethibg insuitable to start with?
[08:31] <DeltaEcho> How come UBSEDS15 uses APRS? And UK callsign M0SBU?
[08:31] <fsphil> it's not in the UK
[08:31] <fsphil> though the use of the UK callsign from the air might be iffy, even outside the UK
[08:31] <DeltaEcho> Where, then?
[08:32] <daveake> Wherever it's allowed to
[08:32] <fsphil> !whereis UBSEDS15
[08:32] <SpacenearUS> 03fsphil: 03UBSEDS15 was over 03Benxi, Benxi, Liaoning, China 10(40.92446,123.98529) at 0311905 meters about 0315 hours ago
[08:32] <fsphil> China
[08:33] <fsphil> these flights have geofences to prevent APRS in countries that don't allow it
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[08:33] <fsphil> some go silent, others switch to 434mhz
[08:33] <DeltaEcho> I konw it was last seen in China, but it was launched in the UK and uses APRS. Special permission or pirate?
[08:34] <DeltaEcho> BTW, PRK shoot it down? ;)
[08:34] <daveake> It wasn't using APRS whilst over the UK
[08:34] <fsphil> it's a bit outside ofcom's area :)
[08:34] <AndyEsser> Geofencing
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[08:35] <fsphil> the unholy union of geography and fencing
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[08:56] <daveake> Ideal for foil balloons
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[09:11] <AndyEsser> NOAA will have to wait until tomorrow night :(
[09:23] <AndyEsser> daveake: lots of Twitter coverage by the looks of things for your flight
[09:23] <daveake> yeah ... rpi tweeted/retweeted and that's usually what happens when they do
[09:24] <AndyEsser> Yea, think I saw that yesterday
[09:24] <AndyEsser> nice bit of coverage for you
[09:24] <AndyEsser> now... how to make millions from it :)
[09:24] <daveake> lol
[09:24] <daveake> I suspect you have an inflated idea of the size of the HAB market :)
[09:25] <AndyEsser> I prefer to go with the "Build it and they will come" mentality
[09:25] <daveake> We wanted to get the pits zero tested, and couldn't do that properly till the new zero got released
[09:25] <AndyEsser> whilst I sit sobbing into statements of an empty bank account
[09:26] <daveake> and yesterday was the only day this week with good weather/predictions
[09:27] <gonzo_m> make hab too easy and it will go the way of quadcopters/drones. and twonks will ruin it for everyone
[09:27] <daveake> would have been good to test the new sony pi camera, but it's buggu
[09:27] <daveake> well, it has a bug, but it's a big one
[09:28] <gonzo_m> it is fun when a payment goes into your bank account and it is a very long time before you hear tje splash
[09:28] <daveake> hah
[09:28] <fsphil> they charge extra for the splash now
[09:29] <daveake> I think if I added up the income from pits, and deducted the costs of time on code, flying tests, it'd be +/- zero
[09:29] <gonzo_m> but if no one is there to hear it. does it clear?
[09:29] <daveake> then there's free talks to schools, skycademy etc
[09:29] <daveake> all worth it tho
[09:29] <fsphil> I'm definitly in the negative for HAB
[09:30] <fsphil> but that's hobbies for you
[09:30] <daveake> Me too; I was just putting the pits-specific bit on its own
[09:30] <AndyEsser> O yea - I don't imagine I'll ever see income, let alone profit for HAB :)
[09:30] <gonzo_m> if you treat it as a hobby that is fine. it's when people try and run a businees as a hobby and use that to justify
[09:30] <AndyEsser> as much as I'd love to make some sort of commercial venture out of it - for scientific/commercial payloads, etc
[09:30] <gonzo_m> making a loss....
[09:32] <AndyEsser> daveake: re your tweet
[09:32] <gonzo_m> what you need to do is ti just resell others work and the habhub facilities. and leave this community to provide tech support
[09:32] <AndyEsser> are packets not stored until a successful upload?
[09:32] <daveake> Yes but the queue maxxed out
[09:32] <AndyEsser> Ah
[09:32] <daveake> 8 threads each with 16 packets max
[09:32] <AndyEsser> is that local on the gateway?
[09:32] <daveake> yes
[09:33] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[09:33] <gonzo_m> and trademark some existing online shops too. that is always good for moral
[09:33] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: :)
[09:33] <daveake> The receiver code just selects a queue and adds the packet to it
[09:33] <AndyEsser> daveake: set up some sort of relay/proxy :)
[09:33] <AndyEsser> on a nother device
[09:33] <RocketBoy> :-)
[09:33] <AndyEsser> gah - can't type
[09:34] <daveake> fsphil improved the server side before this flight, and when he checked yesterday the server was responding quickly
[09:34] <daveake> yet my uploads kept timing out
[09:34] <daveake> Switched to 4G problem gone
[09:34] <fsphil> there was a moment later in the flight when a process on the server slowed things down a bit, but it was still accepting packets
[09:34] <daveake> Others uploading from 868 didn't have this issue
[09:35] <fsphil> yeah the worst case I seen was 2 seconds, but that was exceptional. most where taking < 0.4 seconds
[09:35] <daveake> I don't know if Plusnet were throttling and/or something else here was uploading
[09:35] <AndyEsser> daveake: I wasn't suggesting it was a way to solve the issue - just reduce the packet loss :)
[09:35] <fsphil> you might be better uploading in a batch every 10 seconds or so
[09:35] <AndyEsser> daveake: in my experience Plusnet don't do packet shaping (and having spoken to their engineers)
[09:35] <AndyEsser> might've just been normal contention?
[09:36] <daveake> With 4 packets per second, and 8 threads, 2 seconds consistently is right on the cusp of not working. If the average is <2 then no problem
[09:36] <fsphil> setting up an http request for every 256 byte packet is adding a huge overhead
[09:36] <daveake> My upload should be ~1Mbps, and this is way, way lower
[09:36] <fsphil> at 300 baud not an issue :)
[09:36] <daveake> yes indeed
[09:36] <fsphil> yeah 1mbps should've been fine too
[09:37] <daveake> yes
[09:37] <AndyEsser> Maybe some sort of sliding window type request, based on successful uploads etc?
[09:37] <fsphil> possible something along the network considered it a bit DOS'y
[09:37] <AndyEsser> if it's all going dandy, fire them 1 at a time as quickly as possible
[09:37] <daveake> It would help if I use the new API and upload multiple packets at once
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[09:37] <AndyEsser> if it's starting to fail/throttle go to combining multiple every few seconds?
[09:38] <fsphil> I'd suggest having it retry a few times too
[09:38] <fsphil> if it doesn't get a valid response from the server
[09:38] <daveake> It does fsphil
[09:38] <fsphil> ah
[09:38] <daveake> But during those retries the queue builds up
[09:38] <daveake> So it's the new packets that get lost
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[09:54] <swaledale> morning
[09:55] <daveake> morning
[09:55] <AndyEsser> morning
[09:56] <fsphil> morning
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[09:57] <swaledale> anyone tried pits with the latest jessie lite build (10th may update)? just built a new pits image and RTTY goes a bit crazy sending hundreds of packets per min (scrolling fast) even with camera off?
[09:57] <swaledale> also notice you cant seem to turn off devtree
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[10:05] <swaledale> daveake: whats up with your internet connection? saw that you lost packets uploading, is it over damp string?
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[10:11] <daveake> FTTC but long wire to the cabinet
[10:11] <daveake> Should be ~ 5Mbps down 1.2 up
[10:12] <adamgreig> why do you lose packets though? can't you just cache them locally and upload eventually?
[10:12] <adamgreig> even if you can't keep up during the flight
[10:12] <daveake> Was OK in testing, and was OK for a while in the flight, then it clogged up
[10:12] <daveake> Yes I do. 8 threads 16 packets each
[10:12] <daveake> obv could increase those
[10:12] <adamgreig> but like, do you write each radio packet to disk?
[10:12] <daveake> yes
[10:12] <adamgreig> ah, so you haven't actually lost any packets, they were just taking a long time to upload?
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[10:13] <daveake> I certainly could buffer the entire flight and upload at whatever rate I have
[10:13] <daveake> well no .. the uploading is all done using memory buffers; the files are used to create local jpeg images
[10:13] <daveake> at present
[10:13] <daveake> but yes it could be changed
[10:14] <adamgreig> seems like it'd be worthwhile to not lose packets just cuz local internet connection went down or something
[10:14] <daveake> yes
[10:14] <adamgreig> even just buffering them in ram, I assume you have enough ram to hold on to a lot of packets
[10:14] <daveake> Useful in chasing
[10:14] <adamgreig> yea
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[10:15] <daveake> All LoRa images on the SD from yesterday come to a bit over 500MB
[10:15] <swaledale> 5Mbps is at the bottom end of FTTC
[10:15] <daveake> So even that lot could be in ram :p
[10:16] <daveake> Yeah it's the upload speed that's better than ADSL; download is similar
[10:16] <daveake> I'd quite like to switch to 4G as that's way faster here
[10:16] <daveake> however we use ~100GB/month which is fairly expensive on 4G
[10:17] <swaledale> yes, 4G would be better. When Voda switched it on in London a couple years ago i could upload logfiles at work at around 90Mbps
[10:18] <fsphil> the networks seem to be getting more expensive
[10:18] <swaledale> which carriers can you get 4G on near you?
[10:18] <daveake> 3 and EE both have 4G here, and as we're on a hill with LOS into town, we get a good signal
[10:18] <swaledale> Three do unlimited for £20 a month
[10:19] <daveake> 12GB max tethered
[10:19] <swaledale> I regularly use more than that and they dont say a thing
[10:19] <daveake> ok
[10:20] <mfa298> Three seem to change what you can do on a random basis, I've sometimes been able to tether with my phone, but not always.
[10:21] <mfa298> although I'm on an old plan which I don't think allowed tethering.
[10:21] <daveake> EE is faster here esp for uploads. Or have been when I've run speedtests.
[10:21] <daveake> I have an EE mifi and 3 in my phone
[10:22] <fsphil> I'd love to use 3 here but O2 has vastly better coverage
[10:23] <swaledale> often their crappy sys monitoring doesnt count upload towards usage, so I've found
[10:25] <swaledale> Three have upped the 12Gb to 30Gb from March 2016: http://www.3g.co.uk/tethering.html
[10:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SKIPI after 0317 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SKIPI
[10:27] <gonzo_m> ee has the best general coverage and will prob only get better as they tske on the emergency svc comms
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[10:27] <swaledale> or worse when BT take over management of their infra :)
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[10:29] <jakeio> How do I specify custom units for telemetry strings?
[10:29] <swaledale> daveake: my irc crashed after i asked earlier... have you tested pits with latest jessie lite, 10th may build?
[10:31] <michemto> hi fellas!~
[10:32] <gonzo_m> morning
[10:32] <swaledale> hi
[10:33] <mfa298> swaledale: which Pi are you using ?
[10:33] <swaledale> 2b
[10:33] <gonzo_m> ee are required to have a certain min level of coverage. and i expect some grant money to fill the holes
[10:34] <jakeio> I've got a sensor outputting data in Watts/Sq M, is there a way I can tell habitat what my units are, if I select light intensity, it goes straight for lux...
[10:35] <mfa298> can't blame it on the serial port on the Pi3 then, although I wonder if the firmware blob has changed over the uarts on the Pi2b now (assuming the PITS uses the uart to send the rtty)
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> jakeio: you could multiply by 130, and you're there.
[10:39] <jakeio> Watts per square meter to lux is *130? Ok, thanks SpeedEvil.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> 1000W/m^2 is sunlight - pretty close - and 130klux is also sunlight
[10:41] <michemto> who
[10:42] <michemto> who's administrating ukhas wiki and is online right now :)
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[10:43] <lz1dev> michemto: whats up?
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[10:50] <swaledale> mfa298: no, cant blame serial. when tracker starts it just scrolls hundreds of RTTY lines rather than the usual slow pace
[10:51] <swaledale> LoRa still sends packets when it is supposed to, just RTTY that's too fast
[10:54] <AndyEsser> good lord RG213 is a bit thick isn't it
[10:55] <swaledale> lol
[10:56] <AndyEsser> I'm not going to enjoy adding the connectors to the end...
[10:56] <mfa298> swaledale: if the rtty is still readable telemetry (presumably at 300 baud) then it sounds like it's doing what it should.
[10:57] <mfa298> 300baud will give you a position every second or so if there's no image data in there
[11:02] <gonzo_m> n types are easy. just cut the cable end correctly for the connector
[11:02] <gonzo_m> (for that brand of conne tor)
[11:03] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: yea - will attempt it all this evening when I get home
[11:03] <AndyEsser> cable and connectors have arrived
[11:03] <AndyEsser> no antenna yet
[11:03] <AndyEsser> and no book :(
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[11:05] <gonzo_m> if the n type is one that relies on the coax centre to hold the pin at thr correct extension, pay extra attention
[11:05] <jakeio> Hello, if I've already made a flight document, but I then update my payload configuration document, do I need to make a new flight document?
[11:06] <gonzo_m> a pin too far out will break the maping socket. too far in it will be a bad connection
[11:06] <gonzo_m> the ones with a pin captive between two ptfe washers are best
[11:06] <swaledale> setting the baud to 50 or 300 makes no difference, we're talking about a hundred packets every second, maybe more, just scrolling up the screen. usuall it's much slower, like 1 a second as you say
[11:06] <gonzo_m> also that stops the pin movong over time
[11:07] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: yea, I have a separate pin that looks like it just sits on the inner core and is held in place by the connector
[11:07] <fsphil> guessing you see this on the Pi itself, rather than dl-fldigi swaledale
[11:08] <gonzo_m> the two spacers are the clue. they sit either side of a ridge in the pin and hold it wrt the body of the conne tor
[11:08] <gonzo_m> one spacer may be stuck in the body. should just slide out
[11:09] <swaledale> yes fsphil, by killing and restarting tracker
[11:09] <swaledale> it never used to be like this on an older raspbian
[11:10] <x-f> jakeio, yes, if you create a new payload doc, you will need a new flight doc as well. however flight doc is needed for the actual flight, you need only payload doc while you are testing
[11:10] <swaledale> i might get an older jessie lite and try that again, see if it reverts to prove it
[11:11] <Ian_> nsh, best you browse the wiki ^^ as it seems you are at the bottom of a learning curve for which there is ooodles of information and after a few days (weeks) of reading you will be a lot wiser and understand the dynamics a little better.
[11:11] <jakeio> Thanks x-f on that note, is there any chance of getting flight doc id 1871491ad9a2895ba150258ac7fd521b approved?
[11:11] <Ian_> For instance just last Thursday a couple of Dutch amateurs were receiving the signals from a number of 10mW balloon launched from
[11:11] <x-f> jakeio, please head to #habhub for such requests
[11:11] <mfa298> swaledale: have you gone throguh and disabled the serial console that normally runs on the console ?
[11:12] <jakeio> x-f thanks.
[11:12] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: cheers - will take a look at it tonight
[11:12] <Ian_> Bridgnorth and landing in the Shropshire hills - What's the best antenna for that . . . Ahhhhhh cough! well tooled up I can say
[11:14] <gonzo_m> a portable one and find a hill to be on
[11:17] <Ian_> AndyEsser what gender of N to SMA do you need http://cpc.farnell.com/1/3/n-type-sma. See CN10764 N plug to SMA socket. There are probably others costing less
[11:18] <AndyEsser> male SMA female N I think
[11:18] <AndyEsser> got one ordred anyway
[11:18] <AndyEsser> doesn't matter :)
[11:18] <nsh> Ian_, thanks for the advice. will do
[11:19] <daveake> swaledale No not yet (jessie lite 10th May)
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[11:20] <daveake> Scrolling rtty messages means can't open serial port
[11:21] <daveake> So check it's disabled in raspi-config
[11:21] <jakeio> How much Helium do you typically fill the Hwoyee balloon with? Website says 2.61m^3, just double checking!
[11:21] <daveake> (scrolling fast than the baud rate says it should, that is)
[11:22] <daveake> jakeio Question makes no sense
[11:22] <jakeio> Whoops.
[11:22] <daveake> "The Hwoyee" - there are many
[11:22] <jakeio> Hwoyee 1000
[11:22] <jakeio> Haha, sorry.
[11:22] <gonzo_m> you fill till you get a required amount of lift
[11:22] <daveake> Payload weight?
[11:22] <daveake> Ascent rate?
[11:22] <daveake> Just do the calcs and do what it says
[11:22] <RocketBoy> typically if it says 2.61 then 2.61 it is
[11:22] <jakeio> Haha, OK fair enough. Lacking enough detail.
[11:22] <jakeio> Sorry about that.
[11:23] <RocketBoy> plus a few stirks for good measure
[11:23] <daveake> SiBot needs programming for that unit :)
[11:23] <gonzo_m> you need enough lift to lift the payload and extra to make it go up
[11:23] <AndyEsser> is a stirk to units as ISH is to times?
[11:24] <mfa298> !wiki glossary
[11:24] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: Wiki page 03glossary (general) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/general:glossary
[11:24] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: Wiki page 03ish (general:glossary) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/general:glossary:ish
[11:24] <mfa298> AndyEsser: should be on the top link
[11:24] <RocketBoy> AndyEsser: yep
[11:24] <gonzo_m> someone like the wiki pages on fill calcs
[11:24] <gonzo_m> link
[11:24] <AndyEsser> mfa298: cheers - had read the glossary - but apparently stirks hadn't found it's way into my memory
[11:25] <Ian_> And it's not remote controlled, because there is a little guy inside doing all the switching! :)
[11:25] <jakeio> Sorry about that question, I did intend to write 1000g in there, my typing fingers skipped over that, additionally, I meant generically, in the past, as in, asking those who'd used sed balloon before.
[11:25] <RocketBoy> jakeio: Id always get a bit more gas than you think you would need
[11:26] <RocketBoy> 1) cos the clyinders coune up a little short some times IMO
[11:26] <daveake> I don;t even remember the figures. Just do the calcs based on your balloon size etc., do what it says, and add those stirks to make sure it doesn't go up too slowly (which can mean a wet landing)
[11:26] <daveake> and yes that
[11:26] <jakeio> Well RocketBoy, calculator says 2.31 m^3, there's a 2.61 m^3 canister sold by BalloonHelium, that should do, right?
[11:26] <RocketBoy> 2) I think the helium is normally less than 99% pure
[11:26] <daveake> I had one land 600m out to sea due to cylinder not providing the gas it should have. Couldn't get the required lift, but launched anyway knowing it'd be close to the coast
[11:27] <daveake> No I'd always get a cylinder with spare capacity
[11:27] <daveake> calculator assumes 100% helium it could be 99% or less
[11:27] <RocketBoy> 2.61 for 2.31 is tight IMO
[11:28] <jakeio> So go for a 3.6m^3, the next step up then.
[11:28] <daveake> agreed
[11:28] <daveake> yes
[11:28] <RocketBoy> yep
[11:28] <jakeio> Right, thanks.
[11:28] <daveake> You're launching from Monmouth?
[11:28] <RocketBoy> The sundaries add up
[11:28] <jakeio> I am indeed.
[11:28] <daveake> when ?
[11:28] <mfa298> or make your payload lighter (so you need less gas)
[11:28] <jakeio> May 30/31 (booked 2 days)
[11:29] <daveake> OK should be free if you want a hand
[11:29] <RocketBoy> Oh and a 1000g balloon can be like 1100g in practice
[11:29] <daveake> good point
[11:29] <jakeio> That's very kind daveake.
[11:29] <daveake> I've seen 70g over
[11:29] <daveake> don't always weigh them mind
[11:29] <RocketBoy> me neither
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[11:30] <RocketBoy> its all; taken care of by measuring neck lift
[11:30] <daveake> btw RocketBoy yesterday's rather old 1600 had a fairly early burst
[11:30] <jakeio> Erm, I guess that'd be good. I've got quite a lot of people coming already, but it might be nice to have some help not to mess up the launch...
[11:30] <daveake> indeed.
[11:30] <daveake> I shall, as usual, stand and watch and say nothing unless I have to :)
[11:30] <RocketBoy> yeah - I saw
[11:31] <jakeio> Haha, that'd be good.
[11:31] <daveake> 700g of balloon came down. Was expecting more actually, as it was doing 17m/s at 30km
[11:31] <adamgreig> what alt did it pop at?
[11:31] <RocketBoy> tangle too?
[11:31] <daveake> 34km
[11:31] <jakeio> I'll double check that's OK daveake and get back to you, as I'm launching from a friend's house (friends field in reality).
[11:31] <daveake> Not tangled with the chute, no
[11:31] <adamgreig> not bad but a bit short of magic 1600
[11:32] <daveake> yeah not bad. A good one would have done 42km
[11:32] <adamgreig> RocketBoy: the wednesday launch is delayed a week btw so no rush on those bits
[11:32] <RocketBoy> ah - already shipped
[11:32] <daveake> Not complaining - high alt would have been a bonus
[11:32] <adamgreig> oh well, thanks for that in any event then :P
[11:32] <RocketBoy> the HY800s are comming in tomorrow
[11:32] <adamgreig> cool
[11:33] <adamgreig> got a bunch of summer launches calendared it looks like
[11:33] <daveake> Yeah your stock seems a bit empty at the mo!
[11:33] <daveake> Cleaned out by the BARC 25 ? :)
[11:33] <RocketBoy> a perfect storm of the sales ramp for summer and Hwoyee bing out of production of a few sizes in the last few months
[11:34] <daveake> ah
[11:35] <RocketBoy> ooh - looks the the balloons are arriving today - a day early (well done customs)
[11:36] <RocketBoy> yay - means Im not tied to the house tomorrow.
[11:38] <swaledale> thanks daveake, sorry was afk, damn work. will check soon
[11:39] <daveake> ok
[11:44] <number10> will Hwoyee 1200 be in RocketBoy?
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[12:01] <AndyEsser> *sigh* so Coax and connectors have arrived, but no sign of antenna :(
[12:02] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: if you're careful on ebay, most things are available from uk suppliers who will ship very quick, and everything is available cheaper from chinese/HK suppliers who will take a couple weeks
[12:02] <adamgreig> gotta watch out ;)
[12:03] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: Yea, my original SMA->N types are coming from Australia... hence the estimated delivery date of June 24th...
[12:03] <AndyEsser> UK supplier is getting them to me tomorrow
[12:03] <adamgreig> nice
[12:03] <AndyEsser> so hopefully can at least sort out the coax, mount the antenna and what not
[12:03] <AndyEsser> and then tomorrow evening can play around with getting NOAA images :)
[12:05] <adamgreig> hmm not sure you can expect to get much noaa stuff from a colinear?
[12:05] <adamgreig> worth a shot i guess but your radiation pattern is all wrong and your polarisation is all wrong
[12:05] <adamgreig> unless you're planning on using another antenna in which case ignore :P
[12:05] <AndyEsser> true, a QFH was recommened - but somebody suggested maybe get something with the X50 whilst it's overhead
[12:06] <adamgreig> the x50 doesn't really have any coverage 'above'
[12:06] <AndyEsser> but yes - if I don't get the NOAA stuff with the X50 o well, at least I have something for tracking HABs
[12:06] <adamgreig> might get stuff while satellites are on the horizon
[12:06] <adamgreig> but the satellites are circ pol and the x50 will be linear pol (and vertical assuming you mount it for balloons)
[12:07] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: o yea - I appreciate it's likely I'll get sod all
[12:07] <AndyEsser> but I wanted (needed) an X50 anyway :)
[12:07] <AndyEsser> seemed like a good excuse to buy one :P
[12:07] <adamgreig> yes it's fair :P
[12:07] <AndyEsser> why can't there just a be an ultra-antenna that flawlessly picks up all signals
[12:07] <AndyEsser> :)
[12:08] <adamgreig> you want one of those isotropic antennas, should be some on ebay
[12:08] <adamgreig> various antennas get really wide frequency coverage too, especially for receive-only
[12:09] <mfa298> 50 ohm resistor gives a good match across the spectrum so must be a good antenna :p
[12:09] <swaledale> daveake: serial definitely disabled in raspi-config and it still does RTTY scrolling (600 per second)
[12:09] <swaledale> enabling serial seems to stop it for a while, then it reverts to scrolling. weird.
[12:09] <daveake> does /dev/ttyAMA0 exist?
[12:10] Nick change: drsnik__ -> drsnik
[12:10] <dbrooke> AndyEsser: if you want to rx something from space you could also try APRS from the ISS, I can usually manage a few packets on a reasonable path using a colinear
[12:10] <swaledale> cant see a dev folder
[12:10] <AndyEsser> dbrooke: the ARISS stuff?
[12:10] <daveake> what now?
[12:11] <dbrooke> AndyEsser: well, it's repeated data from ground stations rather than the ISS itself
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[12:12] <dbrooke> but it's usually switched on as it doesn't need human involvement
[12:12] <dbrooke> use something like direwolf to decode
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[12:18] <swaledale> so with devtree being enabled and not being able to change that, guess that's not the issue
[12:20] <daveake> Just check to see what serial devices are in /dev. Maybe they changed ttyAMA0 to be ttyS0
[12:23] <daveake> Also, if you've started the tracker manually and didn't kill the auto-started one, then that's the issue
[12:24] <swaledale> yeah killed first before starting again
[12:24] <swaledale> just checking tty..
[12:24] <swaledale> no ttyAMA0
[12:25] <daveake> nice
[12:25] <daveake> they. keep. changing. stuff.
[12:25] <swaledale> yup
[12:25] <swaledale> no ttyS0 either
[12:25] <swaledale> but disabled that now
[12:25] <daveake> wut?
[12:25] <swaledale> so yeah
[12:25] <swaledale> hold on let me go enable see if it appears, but so far no S0
[12:26] <daveake> hmmm .... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148218&p=975810
[12:26] <swaledale> "Would you like login shell to be accessible over Serial?" > "Yes" > boot up goes screwy
[12:27] <daveake> stab stab stab
[12:28] <Darkside> no right of way here..
[12:28] <swaledale> ok that thread says a lot
[12:30] <swaledale> so disabling serial also kills UART0 on boot, which explains why I get 'some' progress when enabling serial again
[12:31] <daveake> OK, for now I suggest you use the previous jessie. I'll get this sorted with the latest, today or tomorrow
[12:32] <daveake> Wateed half a day before when changes broke sound so APRS didn't work
[12:32] <mfa298> there seem to be a few issues with that release, I've seen a few threads commenting on apt breaking for people
[12:32] <swaledale> ok, yeah, seems like a fairly major change the whole uart thing. but then im a mere mortla.
[12:32] <swaledale> mortal
[12:33] <swaledale> and yes mfa298 it feels pretty buggy in general
[12:33] <daveake> ttyAMA0 has worked since Feb 2012 and they decided to break it
[12:33] <swaledale> auto login with pi is a bit of a help, not sure if that's a jessie05-10 rel thing
[12:33] <daveake> With this and the Sony cam I feel rants coming on
[12:34] <swaledale> saves explaining to people, just. keep. typing. raspberry. ignore. screen.
[12:34] <swaledale> ranty mcrantface
[12:34] <swaledale> :)
[12:35] <daveake> Many changes come along ... devtree, startd for example, but this just seems like it's broken
[12:35] <swaledale> yeah, and i also wonder what else
[12:35] <swaledale> im poking about in raspi-config to see what else
[12:35] <swaledale> some peopl mention international options
[12:35] <swaledale> also, i couldnt get wifi working on it for love nor money
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[12:41] <michemto> I need a floating ball expert over here :)
[12:41] <michemto> I know basics, how to make it float and ect....
[12:41] <swaledale> pigpio and wiring pi included in build, dunno if they are new versions that need checking out
[12:42] <michemto> but I would like to know for example what balloon (envelope) is B-XX using.. and what is the best balloon to have a floater for some trips around the globe :)
[12:44] <adamgreig> as you might guess it's not quite as easy as buying the right balloon :P
[12:44] <daveake> swaledale yeah the supplied ones are fine; I'll remove those bits from the instructions
[12:45] <daveake> new Sony camera firmware btw so I'll try that soon
[12:45] <daveake> I twas hanging up ~2 hours into testing
[12:45] <daveake> Which on a 4-hour flight would be bad
[12:45] <swaledale> yes quite
[12:45] <adamgreig> just put an arduino on it to reboot after 1hr30 :P
[12:46] <swaledale> uplink a restart!
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[12:46] <daveake> Needed power cycling
[12:47] <adamgreig> arduino can do that too :P
[12:47] <swaledale> uplink > GPIO > Relay >Batteries :)
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[12:47] <swaledale> or.. dont use sony. or.. they shoulda fixed the firmware to start with
[12:48] <daveake> That's what I did. And why the pix on the ground were upside-down ...
[12:48] <daveake> ... they released the Sony with upside-down images compared to the Omnivision
[12:48] <daveake> So I added -vf -hf to the config to fix that
[12:48] <daveake> and forgot to remove them when swapping cameras
[12:49] <daveake> duct tape to the rescue
[12:49] <swaledale> ah i see now
[12:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5RZP-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5RZP-11
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[12:54] <mfa298> downside to living on the bleeding edge, sometimes things dont work
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> anyone know the frame rate of pi zero camera?
[12:56] <AndyEsser> woo, foundation license book has arrived... only waiting on the antenna now :(
[12:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[12:58] <fsphil> huh, at an airport
[13:00] <mattbrejza> !whereis CALLSIGN123_chase
[13:00] <SpacenearUS> 03mattbrejza: 03CALLSIGN123_chase is near 03Devon, UK 10(51.08569,-4.14461) at 030 meters
[13:00] <fsphil> sorry, airfield not airport
[13:00] <mattbrejza> oh uk makes a change
[13:00] <fsphil> Chivenor
[13:00] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03$$CHANGENAME_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=%24%24CHANGENAME_chase
[13:01] <fsphil> huh
[13:04] <daveake> lol
[13:20] <adamgreig> RocketBoy: package arrived, tyvm :)
[13:20] <adamgreig> might move up a different launch to this week since we have everything now
[13:21] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: fancy waiting until I have my new antenna done? :P
[13:21] <AndyEsser> ha
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[13:32] <swaledale> not easy to find previous versions of jessie
[13:33] <mfa298> swaledale: not easy at all https://downloads.raspberrypi.org/
[13:33] <mfa298> that appears to have all the versions
[13:34] <daveake> While you're on the latest, could you type "gpio readall" and pastebin the output for me please
[13:34] <daveake> then try:
[13:35] <swaledale> mfa298 thx i missed the images folder, archive just had rel notes
[13:35] <daveake> gpio mode 15 alt0
[13:35] <swaledale> daveake sure, hang on
[13:35] <daveake> gpio mode 16 alt0
[13:35] <daveake> see if the serial port magically appears after those
[13:35] <swaledale> all this while serial is off, correct?
[13:36] <daveake> When you say "serial off", you mean disabling the serial login prompt ?
[13:37] <swaledale> yes sorry, disabling login shell over serial
[13:37] <daveake> yes
[13:37] <daveake> It can't work with that enabled
[13:37] <mfa298> swaledale: you probably want the raspbian_lite folder on there rather than raspbian (unless you really want the gui when setting it up)
[13:38] <daveake> yeah don't use the full distro
[13:38] <swaledale> yes, though when it is disabled it also has a bit of a fit and crashes
[13:38] <swaledale> yeah, only using lite
[13:39] <daveake> Well in that case it's not worth going any further with it
[13:39] <daveake> If it can't start with serial getty disabled then it's broken
[13:40] <Laurenceb_> daveake: do you know the max frame rate of the Rpi zero camera?
[13:41] <daveake> sorry no
[13:41] <daveake> there's a V2 thread in the pi forums, camera section, so maybe there
[13:42] <mfa298> I'd assume similar to on the other pis, as it's the same camera, I think there were some pretty high framerates with the omni one.
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> ok
[13:45] <michemto> @adamgreig: Yeah I ama aware of that
[13:50] <swaledale> the crash is a fs issue i think, it starts first then has a fit. ill get you the output and then rebuild on same latest version to verify
[13:51] <daveake> Don't bother ... I'll set up a card and go through this later today
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[14:22] <daveake> hmmm I'm not seeing these issues with the jessie lite latest image
[14:22] <daveake> getty disabled on ttyAMA0; port appears as usual
[14:23] <daveake> though gpio readall does show them as IN not ALT0 ... hmmm
[14:27] <arjunnaha> Is there any based in the Berkshire area that would be able to help with a launch in June time?
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[14:32] <arjunnaha> *or be able to travel to Berkshire haha
[14:32] <daveake> able != willing ofc :)
[14:33] <arjunnaha> Yes ;)
[14:38] <AndyEsser> good lord the cartoons in the Foundation license Now book are amusing...
[14:53] <jakeio> Hey, can anyone give me some information on the fill tube?
[14:55] <edmoore> 23cm
[14:55] <edmoore> 3cm
[14:55] <adamgreig> PVC
[14:55] <edmoore> there you go
[14:55] <jakeio> Thanks. That's all I need. I'll go and decipher that! :P
[14:56] <edmoore> if you have a specific question fire away
[14:56] <mattbrejza> also make sure it has holes in both ends
[14:56] <jakeio> Perhaps I could've worded that a bit better.
[14:56] <jakeio> ...
[14:56] <jakeio> Yes, I have a few questions.
[14:56] <jakeio> On the UKHAS wiki it shows the PVC pipe and such, however, is the silver tube going into it the tube from the canister?
[14:57] <jakeio> !wiki fill_tube
[14:57] <SpacenearUS> 03jakeio: Wiki page 03fill_tube (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:fill_tube
[14:58] <edmoore> yes
[14:58] <edmoore> from the regulator
[14:58] <edmoore> that's just hosepipe btw
[14:58] <jakeio> Oh really?
[14:58] <jakeio> Right.
[14:58] <edmoore> yes
[14:59] <jakeio> OK, so, really, I'm just making a PVC tube with holes on either end to eventually shove a regulator tube into?
[15:00] <edmoore> yes
[15:00] <edmoore> it is a diameter adjustor and nothing more
[15:00] <jakeio> OK.
[15:00] <edmoore> though you can add accoutrements to it like a hook for measuring the balloon lift
[15:01] <jakeio> And finally, do BalloonHelium supply the regulator, or is it built into the canister?
[15:01] <edmoore> i can't answer your specific question, i buy He from different places, but almost always the regulator is a physically separate thing
[15:01] <jakeio> Because their "Product Options" seems to suggest they're designed for parties!
[15:01] <edmoore> though it may well be supplied with one
[15:01] <edmoore> ask
[15:02] <jakeio> OK, may I ask where you buy your Helium?
[15:02] <edmoore> BOC and/or Air Products
[15:02] <adamgreig> often they supply a rubbish regulator that's like a rubber farting thing
[15:02] <jakeio> I don't know why I gave helium a capitol h there.
[15:02] <adamgreig> which will work but is very slow
[15:02] <edmoore> but don't necessarily use me as a model
[15:02] <edmoore> the economics are different for me
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[15:03] <jakeio> Would you say they're cheaper than balloon helium?
[15:03] <edmoore> yes
[15:03] <edmoore> ... but I don't know if that's true for you
[15:03] <edmoore> i am a commercial customer
[15:03] <edmoore> i buy by the pallete
[15:03] <jakeio> Ooh, OK.
[15:03] <edmoore> it gets delivered on trucks with a built-in forklift
[15:04] <jakeio> Oh.
[15:04] <edmoore> my latest quote is for 20,000L of liquid oxygen
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[15:04] <edmoore> i am not a private individual buying the odd small cylinder of gas
[15:05] <jakeio> When you wrote liquid oxygen, I read that as the Russian mock character from brainiac who was obsessed with liquid oxygen.
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[15:06] <edmoore> well it's being used for a cause of which braniac would approve
[15:06] <jakeio> Oh really? May I inquire?
[15:07] <adamgreig> I don't think there's anything you can do with 20kL of lox that brainiac wouldn't approve it
[15:08] <adamgreig> s/it/of
[15:08] <jakeio> Right, may I ask what suppliers people use for less... bulk?
[15:08] <adamgreig> balloonhelium is perfectly legit for a one off launch
[15:09] <adamgreig> they should supply a somewhat farty regulator that will probably be ok if annoying
[15:09] <edmoore> rocket engine
[15:09] <adamgreig> beyond that I think most people get accounts with BOC
[15:09] <edmoore> yes ballonhelium is probs the right answer for occassional use
[15:09] <jakeio> OK, thanks again.
[15:10] <jakeio> So, they will supply a farty regulator. Right. Good.
[15:10] <jakeio> Or bad.
[15:10] <jakeio> Depends how you look at it.
[15:12] <edmoore> you might have to do a bit of a bodge to get the hose onto the farty regulator
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Even 10% of impurities in helium will not noticably affect most launches
[15:12] <edmoore> jubilee clips or gaffa tape or something
[15:12] <daveake> re regulators/valves, you'll be given what you need with the cylinder
[15:12] <edmoore> with balloonhelium
[15:13] <edmoore> but not in general
[15:13] <daveake> yes
[15:13] <jakeio> OK.
[15:13] <adamgreig> yea you can duct tape the farty thing onto a tube happily
[15:13] <adamgreig> have done it before and would do it again but only while thinking fondly of my usual regulator
[15:13] <jakeio> I'll just use them for the sake of ease then.
[15:14] <jakeio> So, the filling tube, shall I attach a length of hose on the inside then? Which I then intend to attach to the (farty) regulator with a bodge duct tape thing.
[15:14] <edmoore> yep
[15:14] <jakeio> I'm loving the language in this conversation, bodge duct tape thing, farty regulator.
[15:14] <adamgreig> I'm so glad everyone is saying farty regulator
[15:14] <edmoore> it's a technical hobby
[15:14] <adamgreig> I can't think of any other way to describe it though
[15:15] <adamgreig> it's not even that farty
[15:15] <edmoore> a flatulator
[15:15] <adamgreig> perfect
[15:15] <jakeio> Oh dear.
[15:15] <jakeio> :|
[15:26] <AndyEsser> :)
[15:27] <AndyEsser> so despite having 1 UPS package arrive already today, but not the other, from the same supplier, on the same van... I need to wait here in the office until 7pm... yippe
[15:27] <adamgreig> sigh
[15:27] <adamgreig> mail order can be so frustrating
[15:27] <adamgreig> my keyboard is due for delivery tomorrow after a few weeks in the post and i'm pretty excited
[15:28] <edmoore> my saute pan is still days away
[15:28] <edmoore> days!
[15:28] <edmoore> madness
[15:28] <edmoore> i got shit to cook
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[15:28] <adamgreig> where's it coming from?
[15:28] <edmoore> ze germans i think
[15:29] <edmoore> yep
[15:29] <edmoore> leipzig
[15:29] <edmoore> look how pretty it is tho - the 24cm one http://www.debuyer.com/en/products/affinity-rounded-saut%C3%A9-pan
[15:30] <edmoore> pretty but mainly good and stainless and try-ply all the way round
[15:30] <adamgreig> lovely
[15:30] <adamgreig> tri-ply*?
[15:30] <Laurenceb_> copper core?
[15:30] <adamgreig> aluminium core
[15:30] <Laurenceb_> ah
[15:30] <adamgreig> for induction use presumably
[15:31] <adamgreig> looks lovely
[15:31] <Laurenceb_> it cooks better too - I have some copper core pans
[15:31] <edmoore> yep they're fine on induction
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[15:32] <adamgreig> i usually thought saute pans were more like http://www.debuyer.com/en/products/affinity-saut%C3%A9-pan-straight-edge
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[15:32] <adamgreig> ie straight walls
[15:32] <edmoore> yep but that's not so good for tossing things
[15:33] <adamgreig> indeed but i thought at that point you have a skillet basically :P
[15:33] <edmoore> those deep rounded side things are what you want for things like sauteing down some seafood or mushrooms or whatever and then lobbing in some pasta that's almost cooked and tossing it all together
[15:34] <edmoore> have gone to the trouble of finding something demonstrative https://youtu.be/hqNaU6lTD7o?t=4m35s
[15:35] <adamgreig> mmm nice
[15:35] <adamgreig> usually I would saute stuff in my skillet and then transfer that to a saucepan with the pasta or whatever
[15:35] <adamgreig> looks handy
[15:36] <AndyEsser> edmoore: making me hungry...
[15:36] <edmoore> it is super handy
[15:36] <edmoore> so much easier for tossing than a straight sided thing - the hydrodynamics of straight sides make it impossible, for me at least, to not coat the kitchen
[15:36] <edmoore> especially with wet sauces
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[15:37] <adamgreig> yep
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[15:37] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS15 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS15
[15:37] <adamgreig> UBSEDS15 is taking its sweet time
[15:38] <edmoore> a wok'll do in a pinch
[15:38] <adamgreig> hopefully soon it'l be mine :3
[15:38] <adamgreig> wok is a pain for sauteing a lot of things though
[15:38] <adamgreig> not enough space at the bottom
[15:38] <edmoore> and crap heat distribution
[15:38] <adamgreig> yea
[15:39] <adamgreig> also i wouldn't want to use my wok for anything that wasn't meant to taste like asian food because it would afterwards
[15:39] <edmoore> especially for italin-type things like that when you often want to just let a load of garlic and maybe a chilli just give in some oil
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[15:39] <edmoore> but not colour
[15:39] <edmoore> so as to flavour everything for what you then lob in
[15:41] <edmoore> (that vid is from the guy who was head-chef at river cafe for 15 years btw, and he's a good source for simple italian recipes that are midweek supper friendly)
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[15:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SPUTKNIC after 0317 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SPUTKNIC
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[16:20] Action: AndyEsser glares at UPS
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[16:35] <jakeio> It's surprisingly hard to find 4cm PVC pipe.
[16:36] <adamgreig> doesn't need to be exact
[16:36] <jakeio> I know. However, it's still surprisingly hard...
[16:37] <jakeio> I've just been climbing through my garage.
[16:37] <jakeio> (I literally mean climbing).
[16:38] <jakeio> How's the blockage made in this example fill tube?
[16:38] <jakeio> !wiki fill_tube
[16:38] <SpacenearUS> 03jakeio: Wiki page 03fill_tube (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:fill_tube
[16:42] <mfa298> jakeio: try Wickes / B&Q
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[16:47] <jakeio> mfa298, I meant around the house. I've already found some there. We've had building work done so I'm on the prowl for some. I know it's here.
[16:48] <Ian_> Literally searching in the junk box
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[16:49] <daveake> It's common-or-garden 40mm wastepipe
[16:49] <daveake> best to not remove it from service :p
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[18:01] <AndyEsser> well - no antenna tonight :(
[18:06] <jakeio> daveake, how did you block your waste water pipe, did you insert a plastic disc and glue? Or is duct tape the solution (as it so often is).
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[18:10] <jakeio> On second thoughts, don't worry
[18:11] <jakeio> I have a solution.
[18:11] <jakeio> A very bodged one!
[18:11] Action: AndyEsser loses temper with N-type connector
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[18:21] <AndyEsser> gonzo__: I'll buy you beer if you come and do these connectors for me :)
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[18:27] <PE2BZ> Lora TX from home with 100 mW in a Colineair at the roof (13 m above the street) on 434.450 will stop all Volkswagens from being able to open and lock with the remote control
[18:28] <AndyEsser> hehe
[18:29] <PE2BZ> But how to explain to the neighbours that it is Volkswagen´s problem...
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[18:29] <PE2BZ> However, changing freq to 432.625 and they can open and close from 6 meter range again...
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[18:38] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[18:38] <Upu> pong jcoxon
[18:39] <jcoxon> ummm i might be flying a pAva R7 board on sat
[18:39] <Upu> wow they still exist
[18:39] <Upu> RFM22B ?
[18:39] <jcoxon> i might have put one or two away for a rainy day
[18:39] <jcoxon> oh yes
[18:39] <Upu> hehe
[18:39] <Upu> nice
[18:40] <jcoxon> cause doing a ukhasnet launch
[18:40] <Upu> ok cool
[18:40] <jcoxon> and need a backup tracker
[18:40] <jcoxon> e.g. https://grafana.ukhas.net/dashboard/db/21-05-16-balloon-launch-aj2
[18:40] <Upu> ok cool
[18:40] <jcoxon> so do you have the boards.txt file for the R7
[18:40] <Upu> been a while since one of those flew
[18:40] <jcoxon> to flash it again
[18:40] <Upu> actually yes
[18:41] <Upu> min
[18:41] <jcoxon> np
[18:41] <Upu> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qPtS4gqS/
[18:42] <Upu> was it 8Mhz ?
[18:42] <Upu> what crystal was on it ?
[18:42] <jcoxon> 4
[18:42] <Upu> 4Mhz crystal ?
[18:42] <jcoxon> yup
[18:42] <Upu> ah
[18:42] <Upu> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GkgmVq3Q/
[18:43] <jcoxon> thanks
[18:43] <Upu> been a while
[18:43] <jcoxon> its from the pico days of yore
[18:43] <Upu> indeed
[18:43] <jcoxon> got a ukhasnet node lying around?
[18:43] <Upu> negative
[18:43] <jcoxon> :-(
[18:43] <Upu> never got into it sorry
[18:43] <jcoxon> no worries
[18:44] <jcoxon> busy busy i hear
[18:44] <Upu> heh
[18:44] <Upu> yeah soon :)
[18:44] <Upu> 4 weeks
[18:44] <Upu> but any time :)
[18:44] <jcoxon> amazing
[18:44] <jcoxon> of coures
[18:44] <jcoxon> course*
[18:44] <AndyEsser> woo! one connector done
[18:44] <jcoxon> well shout if you fancy a little sensor network in the future
[18:44] <AndyEsser> what's happening in 4 weeks?
[18:44] <jcoxon> baby
[18:45] <AndyEsser> Ah
[18:45] <AndyEsser> I'm not sure I can face doing another connector... can I just tape it to the antenna?
[18:47] <mfa298> sounds like you just need more practice
[18:47] <Ian_> PE2BZ used to be 433.800MHz in UK but I believe there is more of a spread these days. :)
[18:48] <mfa298> AndyEsser: I think putting a connector onto coax (usually pl259 onto rg58) is part of the intermediate.
[18:48] <Ian_> AndyEsser, what coax did you buy?
[18:48] <PE2BZ> Ian_ thanks. I did a tweet and an email to Volkswagen to ask why they still use this crowded frequency and what they are going to do to keep me and my relation with the neighbours hapy :-)
[18:49] <Ian_> They are going to lie to their customers, again. Then the others will all be found out too. I believe one of the Japanese mfrs has fessed up a month or so ago about falsifying fuel economy figures - MARKETING ;(
[18:50] <AndyEsser> mfa298: suspect rg58 is easier than this stuff
[18:50] <AndyEsser> Ian_: rg213
[18:51] <Ian_> Ah, OK. it's just when you buy things like Westflex 103 and some of the Aircell cables, it's best to spring for their connectors too. The reason being . . .
[18:52] <Ian_> the central conductor of WF103 is slightly larger and so needed to be necked down to fit a standard PL259 (for example). It obviously became a weak point as well as being an attrocious faff to fit in the first place. Spend the extra where needed.
[18:53] <mfa298> I've found rg213 a bit interesting sometimes as I think a couple of the variants are slightly different diameters so some of the plugs take a bit of persaution
[18:53] <PE2BZ> AndyEsser is connector crimp or soldering ?
[18:53] <AndyEsser> PE2BZ: solder
[18:53] <AndyEsser> mfa298: these connectors are specifically for rg213 but it's not as tight a fit as I'd have liked
[18:54] <jcoxon> Upu, what bootloader did you use?
[18:54] <PE2BZ> I have a spare crimp tool I can send you....
[18:54] <Upu> none you don't need one
[18:54] <Upu> ICSP programmer ?
[18:55] <jcoxon> Upu, oh right
[18:55] <jcoxon> just the file suggests ATmegaBOOT_168_atmega328_pava_4MHz.hex
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[18:55] <Upu> oh yeah
[18:55] <jcoxon> found a blog entry by you
[18:55] <Upu> you can ignore that
[18:56] <jcoxon> 2012
[18:56] <Upu> I don't think I ever got it working
[18:56] <Ian_> RG213 used to be cited as the standard, then we started to use a lot more 2m and 70cm where it became exceedingly lossy. best kept to < 150MHz
[18:56] <Upu> then realised I didn't need it anyway
[18:57] <Upu> you ran your own code on that anyway didn't you ?
[18:58] <jcoxon> yeah but don't have time to try and drag that back to life
[18:59] <Upu> let me see what I have
[18:59] <jcoxon> there is r7 code on githun
[18:59] <jcoxon> github*
[18:59] <Upu> yeah not sure how up to date it is
[18:59] <Upu> does it have a version number on it ?
[19:00] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wcuydcec099ojpz/AAD5M38x-tH-uUcInG-ducwoa?dl=0
[19:00] <AndyEsser> connector #2 done - time to electrically test
[19:00] <Upu> that was the last bit of code I did
[19:01] <Upu> Jan 2014
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[19:01] <Upu> some of your code in there anyway :)
[19:02] <jcoxon> thanks
[19:02] <Upu> #define RADIO_REBOOT 20 // Reboot Radio every X telemetry lines
[19:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0SBU-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0SBU-2
[19:02] <Upu> because RFM22B :/
[19:02] <Ian_> When errecting antennas, the coax connector with the fault will be in the one at the top of a mast :)
[19:02] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:02] <Upu> oh note the power is set to 25mW
[19:02] <jcoxon> i remember
[19:02] <Upu> accident ofc
[19:03] <daveake> ha
[19:03] <Upu> :)
[19:03] <jcoxon> antenna mismatch losses surely
[19:03] <daveake> cble losses
[19:03] <richardeoin> ^^ may have just XSS'd the map
[19:03] <richardeoin> soz
[19:03] <edmoore> 3dB handwave insertion loss mumble swr
[19:04] <Upu> impressive richardeoin :)
[19:04] <PE2BZ> !flights
[19:04] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03UBSEDS15 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(d812)
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[19:04] <richardeoin> took me 6 minutes, pretty awful tbh
[19:05] <Upu> how long has it been in the air ?
[19:06] <richardeoin> oh UBSEDS15? 17 days now
[19:06] <Upu> slow boat to China
[19:07] <AndyEsser> Ian_: thankfully mast will be mounted to a trellis in my garden - shortish stepladder to reach bottom of antenna
[19:07] <edmoore> trellises help with decoding
[19:07] <Ian_> :) :)
[19:08] <PE2BZ> Is M0SBU-2 launched this evening ?
[19:08] <richardeoin> no no it's a test
[19:08] <richardeoin> not real
[19:08] <PE2BZ> OK ;-) Was just hoping that the blue rings would come to me :-)
[19:08] <AndyEsser> and electrical testing shows the shield connecst to the shield, and the pin to the pin
[19:09] <AndyEsser> woo
[19:09] <PE2BZ> AndyEsser Well done !
[19:09] <PE2BZ> And no short circuit ?
[19:09] <AndyEsser> nope
[19:09] <richardeoin> will give you plenty of warning when something does launch PE2BZ :)
[19:10] <PE2BZ> richardeoin I prefer thursdays or weekend ;-)
[19:10] <jcoxon> Upu, bingo
[19:10] <jcoxon> wow long time since i've heard that good old rtty
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[19:11] Action: PE2BZ ryryryryryryryryry the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
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[19:12] <AndyEsser> et voila! http://imgur.com/rAXXUZ6
[19:13] <swaledale> nice. were the connectors hard to get on?
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[19:14] <AndyEsser> swaledale: bit faffy - but once I'd figured out the first one, the second was fine
[19:15] <swaledale> cool. so how long is that piece then?
[19:15] <jcoxon> Upu, wow it really does still work
[19:15] <jcoxon> well built
[19:15] <AndyEsser> 10 metres
[19:15] <Upu> heh
[19:15] <Upu> that code works pretty reliably too lots of testing in the air
[19:15] <AndyEsser> jcoxon: how long has it been sat on a shelf?
[19:15] <jcoxon> since 2012 probs
[19:16] <AndyEsser> Ah, thought you were going to say like 10 years
[19:16] <jcoxon> Upu, i've got a pAva/Atlas still as well
[19:16] <fsphil> AndyEsser: ah both plugs on. hope you don't need to put it through a small gap :)
[19:16] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mofv45bswr12vn/2016-05-17%2020.16.27.jpg?dl=0
[19:16] <Upu> :)
[19:17] <AndyEsser> fsphil: via an open window - not going to be a permanent installation until I know where I'm going to be putting antennae
[19:17] <fsphil> nice
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[19:17] <AndyEsser> Upu: it's so cute!
[19:18] <Upu> goes for a while as well think they were edging towards 64 hours from an AA towards the end
[19:18] <Upu> then Leo came along :)
[19:19] <AndyEsser> nice
[19:19] <AndyEsser> Leo has an endurance record?
[19:19] <AndyEsser> also... the Foundation License Now! book... is it purposefully written to make radio sound like the most boring thing on the planet?
[19:19] <Upu> he went round the northern hemisphere 5 times over 120 days
[19:20] <AndyEsser> solar?
[19:20] <edmoore> his balloon did
[19:20] <Upu> yes sorry
[19:20] <Upu> yup
[19:20] <AndyEsser> I guessed it was an unmanned balloon :P
[19:20] <Upu> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/
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[19:21] <AndyEsser> Ah yes - I remember spending an afternoon going through all these one day
[19:21] <swaledale> is there a record for that sort of thing? or are some of them *still* going?
[19:22] <edmoore> Leo has the record currently as far as i know
[19:22] <edmoore> up for grabs if your fancy a go
[19:23] <mfa298> the balloons were probably flyign much longer than the records, but the electronics (particularly battery) gave up.
[19:23] Action: AndyEsser adds it to the list
[19:23] <swaledale> would imagine lady luck plays a significant role
[19:24] <edmoore> supercaps might be an interesting thing to look at
[19:24] <edmoore> broadly unlimited life and broadly unlimited charging temperature range
[19:24] <edmoore> at the cost of power density
[19:24] <mfa298> swaledale: leo got up to B-66 (having started at B-1)
[19:25] <swaledale> yeah just looking at that looong list
[19:26] <swaledale> im guessing receiving was pretty inconsistent, but it downloaded the flight path somehow?
[19:27] <edmoore> it stored a history onboard
[19:27] <mfa298> as they went through they started keeping old data and periodicly transmitting some of it so it could fill in the gaps as it came back in range
[19:27] <edmoore> and transmitted that in addition to live positions
[19:28] <mfa298> the B- balloons were a good demonstration of improvments based on experimentation.
[19:28] <swaledale> yeah, so every time it passed over a receiver you got a bit more of its recent journey. nice.
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[19:30] <mfa298> the earlier ones didn't do history and people wondered where they'de been, so Leo started adding some history.
[19:30] <mfa298> then tweaked it based on how well it worked
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[19:30] <swaledale> that's some lightweight envelope!
[19:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ATLAS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ATLAS
[19:32] <daveake> swaledale: Looks like raspbian has been broken. You can use the latest image provided you don't sudo apt-get update + upgrade.
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[19:37] <swaledale> daveake: Yes I have RTTY tested with Jessie Lite 2016-05-10 but without any upgrade, was just about to check LoRa
[19:37] <edmoore> can someone who isn't me alert Bill Harvey to the existence of FM radio
[19:37] <AndyEsser> I was going to suggest that
[19:37] <RocketBoy> :-)
[19:38] <edmoore> Can give him the frequency of Radio 4
[19:38] <daveake> Not much higher than the frequency of his questions
[19:39] <AndyEsser> edmoore: sent him the BBC list of frequencies for FM stations
[19:39] <swaledale> Also daveake, just checking LoRa gateway, not sure if you've tried that yet?
[19:39] <AndyEsser> that way he can choose something to his taste ;)
[19:39] <edmoore> though he might accidently catch the Archers and i wouldn't want to make him have to listen to absurd and insanely boring conversations as his first experience of amateur radio
[19:39] <edmoore> there is a joke to be made about FM repeaters in there somewhere
[19:39] <swaledale> lol
[19:39] <AndyEsser> edmoore: finished reading the Foundation License Now book whilst waiting for UPS after work...
[19:40] <AndyEsser> he does not do anything to help the hobby
[19:40] <mfa298> Radio 4, that's 198Khz isn't it :p
[19:40] <daveake> swaledale: No, not yet, that would need another new and unexpected breakage
[19:40] <swaledale> fingers crossed then
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[19:52] <AndyEsser> balls... should really have measured the distance before ordering the coax...
[19:54] <edmoore> measure twice cuss once
[19:54] <AndyEsser> it'll be fine to get into my office
[19:54] <AndyEsser> but was hoping I could just run it through the back door to my dining room table
[19:55] <swaledale> oops
[19:56] <AndyEsser> it's fine - just means I'll have to go back into my office for the first time in like 5 months
[19:59] <mfa298> well you've practiced putting connectors onto coax now so it'll be easy enough to get a longer bit of coax and connectors
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[19:59] <mfa298> or just make an investment and buy a drum of coax
[19:59] <AndyEsser> mfa298: that's the next plan
[20:00] <AndyEsser> not a drum of rg213 though...
[20:00] <AndyEsser> ha
[20:00] <mfa298> with the way copper prices go a drum is a good investment
[20:00] <AndyEsser> ha
[20:02] <mfa298> I'm sure when I bought my Westflex 103 I think it was around £100 for a 100m drum, it's not around £140
[20:02] <AndyEsser> building site I was working on once, someone managed to walk off with a £6000 drum of armoured cable
[20:02] <AndyEsser> (by walk off with, I mean... loaded it into a van)
[20:12] <AndyEsser> at least the stories of internet/phone being disrupted because people are digging up the cables to sell for the copper have died down
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[20:26] <AndyEsser> 23/26 on my first test foundation paper
[20:27] <craag> o/ AndyEsser
[20:28] <AndyEsser> o/
[20:28] <craag> (high five)
[20:28] <craag> good to hear!
[20:28] <mfa298> only 23 :p
[20:29] <AndyEsser> mfa298: am disappointed with myself :(
[20:29] <craag> which areas did you get wrong?
[20:29] <AndyEsser> "Which part of an amateur band is not permitted within 100km of Charing Cross, London?"
[20:29] <craag> Look in the bandplan for all band questions
[20:29] <AndyEsser> "Excessive microphone gain may cause "
[20:29] <craag> (you get a copy in the exam)
[20:29] <AndyEsser> ^ that one was a doozy
[20:29] <AndyEsser> should've gotten it
[20:29] <mfa298> then again I think when I've tried the foundation exams I've only got that sort of score as I've disagreed with their answers
[20:30] <AndyEsser> "Band Plans are published because "
[20:30] <craag> "The RSGB has to do something with it's money"
[20:30] <craag> :P
[20:30] <AndyEsser> heh
[20:31] <AndyEsser> don't think the Charing Cross question was in the book
[20:31] <AndyEsser> any ideas why that band can't be used within 100km of Charing Cross?
[20:32] <AndyEsser> 431-432MHz
[20:32] <mfa298> they probably used the same frequencies in the '80s
[20:32] <swaledale> daveake: lora-gw is ok without apt-update/upgrade on 2016-05-10 Jessie Lite
[20:32] <daveake> ok
[20:33] <mfa298> that's been in the license band plans since I did the RAE ~ 20 years ago
[20:33] Action: mfa298 now feels old.
[20:33] <AndyEsser> heh
[20:33] <craag> AndyEsser: It'll be in the bandplan
[20:34] <AndyEsser> I thought it might be something to do with emergency services radios or something
[20:34] <craag> Tube radios
[20:34] <craag> london underground
[20:34] <AndyEsser> apparently it's because of proximity to MI6 and other government buildings and it'd interfere with comms
[20:34] <mfa298> that's one that needs some clarification craag :p
[20:35] <AndyEsser> http://s3.zetaboards.com/copythat/topic/7625671/1/
[20:35] <mfa298> there's a couple of exclusions like that in the bandplans.
[20:36] <craag> Hmm I doubt that.
[20:36] <AndyEsser> if I'd consulted the bandplan I'm sure that'd be a point for me
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[20:38] <craag> Yep don't be afraid to look band stuff up
[20:38] <AndyEsser> I'm annoyed about the dropping the point on the interface to nearby channels of the excessive gain
[20:38] <AndyEsser> interference
[20:39] <craag> It's your first go and you still passed :)
[20:39] <AndyEsser> craag: if only my mind was so binary ;)
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[20:42] <Orionid> Has anyone in here used a Tracksoar for their flights
[20:42] <Orionid> ?
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[20:43] <Orionid> I just finished soldering one up, and need to come up with a lightweight antenna
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[20:45] <mfa298> Orionid: most people here make their own things,
[20:45] <mfa298> there's a basic payload antenna on the wiki for 434MHz
[20:45] <mfa298> !wiki payload_antenna
[20:45] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: Wiki page 03payload_antenna (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[20:45] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: Wiki page 03projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi?s[]=payload&amp;s[]=antenna
[20:46] <Orionid> Yeah, I'm hoping for some ideas. I'm thinking I'll build a dipole. I'm in the US so I can use APRS on 144.390
[20:47] <Orionid> I like that design on the wiki!
[20:47] <mfa298> you could probably do something along the lines of the 434 oen we do use, just make it bigger
[20:49] <Orionid> Is there any merit to me trying to figure out copper vs aluminum for the elements? Aluminium is lighter, cheaper, but not as good of a conductor. Cooper is a better conductor, but heavier and more expensive. Would it really matter all that much in the grand scheme?
[20:49] <Upu> guitar string
[20:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Nope the conductivity is fine in either case just that alu. doesnt solder as easily!
[20:50] <AndyEsser> 24/26 on the second
[20:50] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[20:50] <Orionid> Ok great. Thanks guys. Working on my first flight, so I appreciate the time.
[20:51] <mfa298> AndyEsser: I'd be worried if you got 26/26, that would mean the rsgb had a decent set of questions :p
[20:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> As Upu says guitar strings are also good as they bend and straighten out - heavy ass ones at least!
[20:51] <AndyEsser> one of them was utterly retarded that I got it wrong
[20:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Bass*
[20:52] <craag> the key is "tin-plated" guitar strings
[20:52] <AndyEsser> mfa298: apparently I didn't think lengthening the transmitter mains cable will do nothing to reduce interference
[20:52] <craag> so you can solder to them
[20:52] <craag> that's a terrible question - theoretically.
[20:53] <dbrooke> I seem to recall that 431MHz restriction was actually for some PMR stuff on Crystal Palace, probably late '80s
[20:53] <AndyEsser> I said use a balun on a dipole wouldn't help reduce interference
[20:54] <craag> urggh
[20:54] <craag> with a lot of other things being a certain way, yes it would reduce received interference
[20:54] <Orionid> I'll have to look into the instrument strings. My initial reaction is that it feels like the strings would be more expensive then say some aluminum tubing...
[20:54] <craag> but it isn't because of the balun blocking noise or anything
[20:55] <edmoore> Orionid: strings are flexible
[20:55] <edmoore> which makes them less likely to remove someone's eye when they land
[20:55] <Orionid> ^That is a good thing.
[20:55] <craag> / impale someone's property
[20:55] <craag> (less severe but a more likely)
[20:56] <AndyEsser> craag: was specifically about reducing interference to local TV receivers
[20:57] <craag> they reckoned putting a balun on the transmit antenna would help?
[20:57] <AndyEsser> "Which of the following would NOT help to reduce interference to local TV receivers?"
[20:57] <AndyEsser> A Increasing the distance between the antenna and the houses.
[20:57] <AndyEsser> B Lengthening the transmitter mains cable.
[20:57] <AndyEsser> C Increasing the height of the antenna.
[20:57] <AndyEsser> D Using balanced antennas for HF.
[20:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes sgtanding waves on the co-ax
[20:58] <craag> 'local' there means inside the same house I guess
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[20:58] <AndyEsser> So yea, I said D - "correct" answer was B
[20:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> or neigbhours
[20:58] <mfa298> Looking at 7 on that paper I want E) None of the Above.
[20:58] <mfa298> A 12V mobile transceiver consumes 10W on receive and 100W on transmit. Which one of
[20:58] <craag> so a balun would potentially reduce conducted rf through the ground ring
[20:58] <mfa298> the following fuses is appropriate?
[20:59] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I said 10A
[20:59] <mfa298> 100mA/ 1A/ 10A/ 100A
[20:59] <AndyEsser> but it needs 8A
[20:59] <AndyEsser> ish
[20:59] <AndyEsser> 2A extra is a big amount of extra
[20:59] <mfa298> except transmitters aren't 100% efficient so it could be nearer 20A
[20:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Not really most caapacitors would create a surge
[20:59] <craag> fuses can be +- 20% or so too
[20:59] <craag> usually +
[21:00] <AndyEsser> mfa298: fuses are safety features - not to limit the transmission power of the radio
[21:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Really there tro protect the wiring
[21:00] <AndyEsser> I wouldn't really want a 20A fuse in there
[21:00] <AndyEsser> if the transmitter at 100W needs up to 20A
[21:00] <AndyEsser> I need a new transmitter
[21:01] <Orionid> Sorry, one more on the antenna. Should I be pretty concerned with SWR on the antenna? Or if I measure it out properly, will it likely be close enough?
[21:01] <mfa298> if you look through the manuals for radios capable of 100W transmit they tend to suggest 20A fuses.
[21:01] <AndyEsser> mfa298: really?
[21:01] <craag> Orionid: It'll likely be close enough, if you have the kit to measure it then do, else don't worry about it too much :)
[21:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> For low powers your not worried by SWR
[21:01] <AndyEsser> that now requires different wiring and not just plugging it into a ring main
[21:02] <AndyEsser> (depending on your MCBs)
[21:02] <Orionid> Excellent. (Keeps cost down a little.)
[21:02] <mfa298> some of that will be to cover surges, but some classes of amp (probably the more linear ones) aren't as efficient.
[21:02] <mfa298> AndyEsser: that's on the 12V side (low current at 240V)
[21:03] <AndyEsser> mfa298: also pretty sure it's assumed you'll just use V=IR to work out 8A and go for 10A to cover it
[21:03] <AndyEsser> err
[21:03] <AndyEsser> P=IV even...
[21:03] <AndyEsser> mfa298: if we're talking about mains fuses - surely we're not talking about the 12v side?
[21:04] <mfa298> I've often used my 100W radio with no mains, at which point mains fuses don't apply.
[21:04] <AndyEsser> sure - in which case any or none of those answers are fine ;)
[21:05] <swaledale> the 20A must be on the 12v side, the 240v side isnt going to pull that much
[21:05] <daveake> It says it consumes 100W not transmits it
[21:05] <AndyEsser> And.... I just bothered to read the question that it's a 12v mobile device...
[21:05] <daveake> So the answer they want is 10A
[21:05] <AndyEsser> :P
[21:06] <AndyEsser> daveake: which is what I answered
[21:06] <daveake> well done
[21:06] <daveake> you get my vote
[21:06] <AndyEsser> for Foundation I suspect they're not interested in confusing things with efficiency etc
[21:06] <mfa298> although on re-reading that question it shows you should read the questions carefully. "A 12V mobile transceiver consumes" which I scanned as a radio transmitting with 100W.
[21:06] <AndyEsser> just applie P=IV and choose suitable
[21:06] <daveake> efficiency is irrelevant in this case
[21:07] <swaledale> im pretty sure they dont want you to start becoming an electrician per se, just use the formulas they expect you to
[21:07] <mfa298> because 100W transmit is common, a radio consuming 100W is probably less common.
[21:08] <AndyEsser> shall leave it a day and do the third test paper tomorrow and check I'm still getting 23/24
[21:09] <craag> iirc my car 2m/70cm rig is rated to 8A max draw, for 50W/30W output respectively.
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[21:09] <craag> Yeah space them out a bit AndyEsser
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[21:10] <daveake> Oh, and it said "a 12V radio" ... didn't say what it was running from
[21:10] <mfa298> or try an intermediate one and decide they're also pretty simple
[21:10] <daveake> Could be 10.something up to 15V ish
[21:10] <AndyEsser> craag: or quickly find an Assessor this weekend for the practical stuff and get the foundation done ASAP and forget everything ;)
[21:10] <daveake> depending on charge/charging
[21:11] <daveake> When you get your callsign AndyEsser, check that nobody else has the same one :/
[21:12] <craag> heh
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[21:17] <AndyEsser> daveake: surely... that can't happen?
[21:18] <mfa298> you'd hope
[21:18] <mfa298> but ofcom...
[21:19] <AndyEsser> o0o just received quote for A/C
[21:19] <AndyEsser> it's cheaper than putting up the partition wall
[21:21] <AndyEsser> daveake: is there an online tool to check callsigns?
[21:21] <AndyEsser> Essex Ham comes up at the top of google
[21:22] <AndyEsser> but doesn't say whether it's taken or not - just if it's valid
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> AndyEsser: now add in power costs
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[21:22] <AndyEsser> SpeedEvil: much less than our motherboard 'sploding like it did last summer
[21:23] <AndyEsser> (although technically... didn't actually cost as HP Support is awesome) but lost time/money for productivity
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[21:24] <mfa298> AndyEsser: there's there's often lists on the foi site whatdotheyknow
[21:24] <AndyEsser> mfa298: just on there now
[21:24] <AndyEsser> found a list from September 2013
[21:24] <mfa298> people seem to like regularly asking ofcom for a list.
[21:24] <mfa298> there's probably something mroe recent, I'd expect at least 2015 if not some from this year
[21:25] <AndyEsser> doesn't show any M6 callsigns starting with A, B or C
[21:26] <mfa298> I think for people that don't request one they're assigned in order. It might be worse when you're in 2e0 and m0 territory as those originally were only assigned in order and those prefixes started being used in the late '90s
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[21:26] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[21:26] <AndyEsser> will see if M6ARE is available
[21:27] <jcoxon> hehe http://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-super-pressure-balloon-begins-globetrotting-journey
[21:27] <jcoxon> "The current record for a NASA super pressure balloon flight is 54 days"
[21:27] <AndyEsser> jcoxon: not going to crash into a portacabin this time? :P
[21:27] <jcoxon> its hard to launch those super pressure balloons
[21:28] <jcoxon> crashes are quite common
[21:28] <craag> 18.8-million-cubic-foot
[21:28] <AndyEsser> o0o there's a Radio Amateur meet about 5 miles away 3 times a month
[21:28] <craag> that's a lot of hand-sealing
[21:30] <jcoxon> https://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3289945571/in/album-72157614028027899/
[21:30] <AndyEsser> Chester DRS provides Foundation and Intermediate exams
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[21:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[21:40] <Ian_> AndyEsser, look up the terms, conditions and limitations in the example Licence document.
[21:41] <AndyEsser> Ian_: regarding?
[21:41] <AndyEsser> (other than just good practice)
[21:41] <Ian_> Then looking at the 70cm band, look at the areas where you are not permitted to transmit or require reduced power.
[21:41] <AndyEsser> Ah gotcha
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[21:46] <Ian_> Sorry Andy busy catching up with the log. Didn't realise that I wasn't at the end . . .
[21:47] <Ian_> You ask such captivating questions :) seguing however . . .
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[21:48] <Ian_> You will find that the locations coincide with what was (is?) known as Combined Signals Organisation locations
[21:48] <Ian_> They don't want Hams deafing out their listening gear.
[21:49] <AndyEsser> Cheers :)
[21:49] <AndyEsser> captivating? Ha!
[21:49] <Ian_> The Ernie Ball antenas have another feature. Because the bandwidth is related to the diameter of the conductor, it is a lot more peaky than one made with 5mm tube.
[21:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HABLAB - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HABLAB
[21:53] <AndyEsser> guessing if I head to this Chester ham group... I shouldn't mention HAB?
[21:54] <craag> Why not?
[21:55] <AndyEsser> do they hold HABbers in the same esteem we hold Hammers?
[21:55] <AndyEsser> :P
[21:56] <craag> No, they tend be intrigued
[21:56] <AndyEsser> fair enough
[21:56] <craag> Once they've got over the shock of meeting someone who uses a band above 30MHz that is
[21:56] <AndyEsser> shouldn't mention wanting to use my license to provide an uplink to a balloon though? :P
[21:56] <AndyEsser> haha
[21:56] <craag> No don't bring that up
[21:57] <craag> They have cupboards of pitchforks for questions like that
[21:57] <AndyEsser> I'm basically expecting to walk into a room full of people with grey beards and ponytails ;)
[21:57] <mfa298> remember a good proportion of this channel have licenses, and half of us had a license before finding HAB
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[21:57] <AndyEsser> mfa298: O I know :) I've just noticed that they seem to be the butt of jokes many times
[21:57] <craag> yep, licensed 5 years before HAB here
[21:57] <craag> there's a lot of good modern clubs out there
[21:58] <craag> the rest are just such an easy target ;)
[21:58] <AndyEsser> heh
[21:58] <mfa298> I'm not sure half the 80m brigade could make it to a club.
[21:58] <AndyEsser> break a hip on the way?
[21:58] <mfa298> and if they can you're nose provides a good early warning
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[21:59] <AndyEsser> speaking of which - the guy from Chester DRS just got back to me - despite them having a meet tonight
[21:59] <AndyEsser> :)
[22:00] <AndyEsser> eurgh, wants me to go along and introduce myself
[22:00] <AndyEsser> how... social
[22:01] <craag> That's a good start
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[22:02] <AndyEsser> I'll pop along next Tuesday
[22:02] <craag> there's a club local to here where the only way to contact the secretary is to talk to her at a meeting. no phone, no email, doesn't publish her address...
[22:02] <AndyEsser> according to the schedule it's "Operating Meeting"
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[22:02] <AndyEsser> so get to observe some actual radioing
[22:02] <craag> :)
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[22:02] <mfa298> as it's a club you might get to do a bit of radioing,
[22:02] <craag> yeah
[22:02] <mfa298> depending on how they read the greetings messages bit
[22:03] <AndyEsser> looks like the do at least one operating meeting a month
[22:03] <mfa298> or whatevers in the license these days.
[22:03] <AndyEsser> the others are talks, or practical kit building type things
[22:03] <AndyEsser> or tonights was a big equipment sale
[22:03] <craag> don't go to the sales
[22:03] <craag> dangerous on the wallet
[22:04] <LazyLeopard> ...and on space consumed by un-wanted items acquired...
[22:04] <AndyEsser> ha
[22:09] <AndyEsser> craag: not publishing contact info seems a good way to force people to actually introduce themselves
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[22:21] <gonzo_m> operating meeting = drinkinh tea
[22:24] <AndyEsser> As long as they have coffee - I'm ok with that
[22:24] <AndyEsser> :)
[22:24] <gonzo_m> which club are you visiting?
[22:24] <AndyEsser> Chester DARS
[22:25] <AndyEsser> http://www.chesterdars.org.uk/
[22:26] <gonzo_m> most clubs use a parish hall or similar. some have antennas and a broom cupboard to keep all the kit
[22:26] <gonzo_m> a few lucky ones have their own clubhouse
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[22:28] <AndyEsser> yea this looks like it's in a village hall
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[22:28] <gonzo_m> but the joke/stereotype of clubs has some truth
[22:29] <AndyEsser> Bruce, the person I've been emailing seems pleasant enough and has said he'll look out for a face he doesn't recognise
[22:29] <AndyEsser> I hate meeting new people
[22:29] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[22:29] <gonzo_m> we have had a very longstanding local club fold recently. As they were not gettin g the new/young menmbers
[22:30] <gonzo_m> are you coming to EMF?
[22:30] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: seems to be a recurring thing from what I've seen of similar hobby type clubs
[22:30] <AndyEsser> (notably the Rifle Club I'm part of)
[22:30] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: yes - if I can snag a ticket next time they're on sale
[22:31] <gonzo_m> recon meeting this lot will be easier on the concience
[22:31] <gonzo_m> and will be with beer
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[22:31] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: heh
[22:31] <AndyEsser> well I know at least one person from in here at least
[22:31] <gonzo_m> yep, pretty much all hobbies are getting older
[22:31] <gonzo_m> I'll be meeting many for the first time
[22:32] <gonzo_m> what sort of shooting do you do?
[22:32] <AndyEsser> can we please use namebadges which have Twitter/IRC and Radio Callsigns on?
[22:32] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: Target Rifle Shooting
[22:32] <AndyEsser> although haven't done it for a couple years due to long drives to get to Bisley
[22:32] <gonzo_m> smallbore/fullbore?
[22:32] <AndyEsser> full bore
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[22:32] <AndyEsser> up to 1000 Yards
[22:33] <gonzo_m> we have a good number of of ranges in this area
[22:33] <AndyEsser> whereabouts are you located?
[22:33] <gonzo_m> a 25yd indoor one about 1/4 mile from me
[22:33] <gonzo_m> poole dorset
[22:34] <AndyEsser> there's a couple of ranges near here - but without my own rifle it's not really easy to shoot at
[22:34] <AndyEsser> Ah yes
[22:34] <AndyEsser> was supposed to be there last weekend
[22:34] <gonzo_m> the indoor one had the backstopo uprated for pistol cals
[22:34] <AndyEsser> (or weekend before)
[22:36] <gonzo_m> club guns tend to be either oretty crappy, or there is a queue for them
[22:36] <AndyEsser> club I'm in has 2
[22:37] <AndyEsser> all the regulars have their own
[22:37] <AndyEsser> and I prefer the gun that no-one else likes
[22:37] <AndyEsser> which means I don't have to adjust it :)
[22:37] <gonzo_m> and their availability depends on whoever keeps them turning up#
[22:37] <AndyEsser> we keep ours in the armoury at Bisley :)
[22:37] <AndyEsser> my brother and I want to buy one to share though
[22:38] <AndyEsser> but that means at least one of us getting a license
[22:38] <AndyEsser> for the Club to refer me to get a license, they want me to show up to every shoot in a season
[22:38] <AndyEsser> which just isn't feasible :(
[22:39] <craag> Mm full bore
[22:39] <AndyEsser> craag: wouldn't 1mm full bore ;)
[22:39] <AndyEsser> wouldn't callp*
[22:39] <AndyEsser> call*
[22:39] <AndyEsser> ffs
[22:39] <craag> hah
[22:39] <gonzo_m> the home office req for clubs (approved ones) is that you do so many shoots ove a min of 6months
[22:39] <craag> I enjoyed bisley as a cadet at school
[22:40] <gonzo_m> most clubs don't mind if you take longer to do the req number
[22:40] <AndyEsser> craag: where did you go to school?
[22:40] <craag> uppingham in rutland
[22:40] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: our secretary is starting to panic at numbers I think
[22:40] <AndyEsser> the last 2-3 shoots have been cancelled because only 2 people said they could make it
[22:40] <AndyEsser> suspect trying to get me to show up every shoot is a way t ohelp numbers
[22:40] <AndyEsser> ha
[22:41] <gonzo_m> the christchurch club havr just had to cap membership, as it hit 600+
[22:41] <AndyEsser> craag: bit of a trek!
[22:41] <AndyEsser> wow
[22:41] <AndyEsser> problem is the new Cranleigh head isn't pro shooting/etc
[22:41] <AndyEsser> so no-one at the school is trying to feed pupils into the club
[22:41] <gonzo_m> the little indoor one has managed to go from less then 20 to about 150 in the last few years
[22:42] <AndyEsser> think he even had the schools indoor shooting range dismantled
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[22:43] <gonzo_m> smallbore shooting clubs can still take advantage of some very old laws to have exemption from havong to have a firearms cert
[22:44] <gonzo_m> cadet/school clubs take advantage of it
[22:45] <craag> we shot .22 in the school range most of the year, but would go down to bisley for a few days ahead of the cadet competitions to cram practice
[22:45] <AndyEsser> Yea, we had the .22 range on school
[22:45] <gonzo_m> anything with guns seems to have got a bad press these days
[22:45] <AndyEsser> and then once a week to Bisley
[22:45] <AndyEsser> and if I'd been in the CCF would've had fun with the SA-80's
[22:46] <craag> The ashburton - that's what it was called
[22:46] <AndyEsser> I should really make an effort to try and get down to some shoots
[22:47] <gonzo_m> seems to be little differentiation in most peoles minds between some gang shooting and a someone doing precision 22 target work
[22:47] <AndyEsser> but it's like a 4 hour drive :(
[22:47] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: yea
[22:47] <craag> I found the ccf sa80 things rather underwhelming after 7.62
[22:47] <AndyEsser> well supervised and trained
[22:47] <AndyEsser> craag: not quite the same thud ;)
[22:47] <AndyEsser> or distance
[22:47] <AndyEsser> or skill required
[22:47] <craag> indeed
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[22:48] <gonzo_m> at ATC as a kid we used the no.4 in 303 and the SLR
[22:48] <craag> we did get a spot on one of the recoil-realistic full-auto sa80 simulators though - that was fun
[22:48] <gonzo_m> though only ever on RAF 25yd ranges.
[22:49] <AndyEsser> part of me wishes I'd joined the CCF
[22:49] <gonzo_m> at that range the bits come back out of the sand at yopu
[22:49] <AndyEsser> but then I'd have missed out on the theatre stuff I did
[22:49] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: heh
[22:50] <gonzo_m> our sqdn had rooms over the top of the local TA's 22 range
[22:50] <gonzo_m> so we got to pling once a month
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[22:50] <gonzo_m> k
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[22:51] <AndyEsser> Right - time for me to head to the land of todd
[22:51] <AndyEsser> hopefully my antenna arrives tomorrow
[22:51] <gonzo_m> have you found a place to mount it?
[22:52] <gonzo_m> rr gn
[22:52] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: temporarily to the trellis in the garden
[22:52] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/AMJ81Gh
[22:53] <gonzo_m> on a pole ?
[22:53] <AndyEsser> a length of 2"x2" timber I have in the house
[22:53] <AndyEsser> I'm not looking to get it to clear the roof
[22:54] <gonzo_m> yep, that will prob do ok, if you can get clear obstructions, in the direction of the signal source
[22:54] <AndyEsser> the direction the photo was taken is south
[22:54] <AndyEsser> I'm hoping that it should pick up southern HABs at altitude
[22:54] <AndyEsser> will have to wait and see
[22:55] <AndyEsser> (appreciate ideally I want it higher than the roof - but this is temporary)
[22:55] <gonzo_m> worth a try, sometimes it's supprising how sigs creep in
[22:55] <AndyEsser> hoping there's a HAB flying soon for me to test :)
[22:56] <AndyEsser> be nice to finally receive another payload rather than my own 20cm away
[22:56] <gonzo_m> keep an eye open for some light ali/thin steel tube
[22:56] <AndyEsser> 21ft Steel Tube is £20 :)
[22:56] <SIbot> In real units: 21 ft = 6.40 m
[22:56] <gonzo_m> what rx do you have?
[22:56] <AndyEsser> RTL SDR
[22:56] <gonzo_m> habamp?
[22:56] <AndyEsser> no
[22:57] <AndyEsser> should invest in one
[22:57] <gonzo_m> worth looking at I think
[22:57] <AndyEsser> yea
[22:58] <gonzo_m> and for rx only, you can put it up the mast and use light duty sat tv coax
[22:58] <mfa298> of course if you had a hab amp (mounted at the antenna) you could get away with rg58 and pl259
[22:58] <gonzo_m> but your rg213 is what you want if you are gpoing to tx
[22:58] <mfa298> although don't do the pl259 bit please.
[22:58] <gonzo_m> ugh, not pl259's
[22:58] <gonzo_m> I use ct100 tv cable
[22:59] <AndyEsser> surely sticking a habamp mounted at the antenna, would limit the use of the antenna for other frequencies?
[22:59] <gonzo_m> not to bad loss
[22:59] <gonzo_m> correct
[22:59] <AndyEsser> unless I go out there and switch the cable?
[23:00] <AndyEsser> why not doing the pl259 bit?
[23:00] <gonzo_m> if you want to tx or use it on anything other than 70cm, then thick coax and rf kit in the house is tjhe way
[23:00] <gonzo_m> for just rx on 70cm, then habamp up at antenna is an option
[23:00] <gonzo_m> pl259 are an aortion
[23:00] <AndyEsser> Well I've got rg213 to run out to the antenna
[23:01] <AndyEsser> ready for when I move to TX
[23:01] <AndyEsser> but atm it'll only be RX
[23:01] <gonzo_m> good plan
[23:01] <AndyEsser> that's what I was doing this evening - getting the N-types onto it
[23:01] <AndyEsser> had hoped the antenna would arrive
[23:01] <AndyEsser> but UPS decided not to bother delivering it
[23:02] <gonzo_m> I have a long run of 213 out to the shed, where the preamp/poweramps live, then short-ish runs to the antennas
[23:03] <gonzo_m> long, as in, at 70cm only 1/4 of the tx power fets to the shed
[23:03] <AndyEsser> wow
[23:03] <AndyEsser> hence the amps
[23:03] <AndyEsser> ?
[23:03] <mfa298> pl259 is basicly a banana plug with a shield, They were known as UHF plugs in some places but are barely good for VHF.
[23:03] <gonzo_m> where I can I change connectors on radios to n types
[23:04] <gonzo_m> if not, I screw an adaptor on tight
[23:04] <AndyEsser> n types are connectors of choice atm?
[23:04] <gonzo_m> if I tx 40W from the rig, 10W gets to the shed and then there is a PA up to 50W
[23:04] <gonzo_m> and a preamp on rx
[23:06] <gonzo_m> mechanically rigid, the cable clamp assembly is good (though they are selling pl259's with clamp assembly now)
[23:06] <mfa298> N, SMA and BNC tend to be the better choices out there, N has a higher power rating so tends to be the preference on antennas and radios, sma/bnc tend to be a preference on receive kit and lower power as they're not as bulky
[23:07] <AndyEsser> yea... not looking forward to connecting this cable to my tiny RTL-SDR
[23:07] <gonzo_m> the pl259 has to be done up tight to get a ground connection, the N has contacts
[23:07] <AndyEsser> it'll look like a labrador trying to mount a chihuahua
[23:07] <gonzo_m> hehe
[23:07] <gonzo_m> just put the rtl on a usb extension and let it dangle
[23:08] <mfa298> it may be worth buying / making an sma - N pigtail rather than using an solid adapter
[23:08] <AndyEsser> that's exactly my plan :)
[23:08] <gonzo_m> (I do that with a FCD)
[23:08] <AndyEsser> mfa298: Yea - think we discussed that yesterday?
[23:08] <AndyEsser> I have a USB extension at home already, so can make do without for the moment
[23:09] <mfa298> yesterday or monday :p
[23:09] <AndyEsser> but will move to a pigtail when I go for a more permanent installation
[23:09] <AndyEsser> mfa298: you know what I meant ;)
[23:09] <gonzo_m> another N type point. It's one of the few connectors to be easy to get to mount thick coax
[23:09] <AndyEsser> "easy"
[23:09] <AndyEsser> well easy to get
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[23:10] <AndyEsser> easy to install.. debateable :P
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[23:12] <AndyEsser> UPS have magically updated my package tracking to say it'll be delivered tomorrow - but haven't sent the update email
[23:12] <mfa298> this is approaching the point you should just give in and buy some drums of coax and various suitable connectors.
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[23:13] <AndyEsser> mfa298: this is the Antenna ;)
[23:13] <AndyEsser> I have everthing else
[23:13] <mfa298> then when you need a particular connection you turn on the soldering iron, grab a length of coax and some connectors
[23:13] <AndyEsser> mfa298: but yes
[23:13] <AndyEsser> nice trays full of every connector possible
[23:13] <AndyEsser> lengths of various grade coax and wire
[23:13] <AndyEsser> and a really nice soldering iron and crimping tool set
[23:14] <AndyEsser> that'd be nice :)
[23:15] <gonzo_m> for silly connections, I saw some pics of US hams playing with a band 1 tv tx antenna, before the station went live. The coax down was heliax about 6" diam. then a chain of ever decreasing connectors to a bnc
[23:15] <gonzo_m> AndyEsser, btw is your x50 one with n types?
[23:15] <AndyEsser> yes
[23:15] <gonzo_m> ok
[23:16] <AndyEsser> thank fsphil for pointing that one out :)
[23:16] <gonzo_m> mine wasn't. quite upsetting really
[23:16] <gonzo_m> and the clamp type pl259's would not fit up the pole I have#
[23:17] <mfa298> gonzo_m: that sounds like they should be gone for proper sillyness and gone down to mcx with an rtlsdr on the end
[23:18] <gonzo_m> it was a new install tv tx and they had arranges to add a 6mtr beacon injection into the PA chain
[23:19] <gonzo_m> the tv output was 100's of kw. The 6mtr beacon would be a few 10's of watts
[23:19] <mfa298> only other piece of advice is check you've got all the relevant bits of connector on the coax, and the right way around before you start soldering.
[23:19] <gonzo_m> but they had access to the antenns/mast before the main tx went live
[23:19] <gonzo_m> so they put a rig on to listen
[23:20] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I've done both the N-types already this evening
[23:20] <AndyEsser> no more soldering required :)
[23:20] <AndyEsser> as long as I've gotten my M and F the right way around...
[23:20] <gonzo_m> but after killing two rigs someone put a power meter on the vcoax. there was 5watts comin down, pickup from the sister site 1km away!
[23:21] <gonzo_m> buzz the lead out wiuth a meter,to check no errant braid clipping have got in anf shorting
[23:21] <gonzo_m> and
[23:22] <AndyEsser> gonzo_m: did an electrical test :)
[23:22] <AndyEsser> shield goes to shield
[23:22] <AndyEsser> pin to pin
[23:22] <AndyEsser> no short between
[23:22] <AndyEsser> :)
[23:22] <gonzo_m> good sanity check
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[23:23] <gonzo_m> we did that on the club hf beam feeder. And found oyt why we have to put 1kw in to get a few 100 watts out
[23:23] <gonzo_m> and lots of watervout too
[23:24] <gonzo_m> right gn all
[23:24] <AndyEsser> night
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