highaltitude.log.20160330

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[04:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BV2DQ-13 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BV2DQ-13
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[08:44] <jakeio> Hello, is Upu around? My order on Uputronics is still showing as "Pending" after several days.
[08:46] <Upu> hey jakeio
[08:46] <Upu> whats the order number ?
[08:48] <jakeio> Let me find it.
[08:48] <jakeio> Order ID is #221 according to My Orders section of site.
[08:57] <Vaizki> did you check your hedge for any delivery hab landings
[08:57] <jakeio> Vaizki, no, but that sounds like a perfectly valid delivery method to me :D
[08:58] <daveake> Upu doesn't use Yodel :/
[08:59] <Upu> 1 sec
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[09:00] <Upu> Yes sorry Alex will be mailing you today we're out of stock of the NTX2B's, they are due in early next week sorry
[09:01] <jakeio> Right. So, my delivery won't be arriving till next week then?
[09:02] <jakeio> Upu, the website states "Availability: 24" on the store page for the NTX2B.
[09:05] Nick change: vikash-afk -> vikash
[09:10] <jakeio> Upu - is it possible to cancel the order for the NTX2B-FA but keep the other two, if the NTX2B is going to be delayed so much. Also, the website definitely said "In Stock" when I purchased them.
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[09:12] <fsphil> fire the stock manager
[09:12] <jakeio> fsphil - wow. Harsh!
[09:14] <fsphil> yes I'd be a terrible boss :)
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[09:29] <edmoore> jakeio: upu has a massive team of people
[09:29] <edmoore> far too many than he needs to run the business
[09:30] <edmoore> i think he should downsize maybe 30%
[09:30] <edmoore> which of your arms do you like the least Upu?
[09:30] <jakeio> Wow...
[09:30] <fsphil> harsh but fair
[09:31] <lz1dev> would that improve the service tho?
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[09:34] <R34lB0rg> edmoore, it's a question of philosophy whether a business shall maximize profits or maximize jobs
[09:35] <edmoore> no it isn't in this case
[09:36] <jakeio> Upu - are you there?
[09:37] <daveake> He is, but having downsized his arm quota, he can no longer type
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[09:38] <jakeio> Oh dear.
[09:39] <jakeio> Is the nose not suitable for typing? We can forgive the odd nose-induced typo.
[09:41] Nick change: vikash -> vikash-afk
[09:42] <jakeio> What is the delivery time like for Radiometrix?
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[09:48] <mfa298> jakeio: I think if you try direct with RadioMetrix you'll be limited to one of two frequencies the -FA option might still be Upu Specific
[09:49] <jakeio> Yes, I know, I do not need the frequency agile version. 434.075MHz will be absolutely fine.
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[09:52] <mfa298> there have been issues with .650 and .075 in the past although people so rarely fly .075 I'm not sure how bad that is now
[09:52] <daveake> jakeio If you're happy with a .075 I'll send you one
[09:53] <daveake> or .650 (but prepare for the wratch of the hams) :-)
[09:53] <daveake> wrath
[09:53] <jakeio> What do you mean, wrath of the hams?
[09:53] <daveake> .650 is used by some ham repeaters
[09:53] <mfa298> As for delivery times I'm not sure many would know, the only person I know of that deals with them is Upu so if his order comes in next week I'd imagine a new order could take longer
[09:54] <daveake> and in theory, such a repeater might try to repeat the hab signal
[09:54] <gonzo_> without putting a ctcss tone on the hab tx, unlikly
[09:54] <daveake> afaik it's never actually happened, but sometimes we do get complaints in the mailing list
[09:54] <mfa298> I've had more issues the other way with repeaters, people using the repeater interferring with recieving habs. That 20W fm signal splatters all over the 10mW rtty
[09:54] <daveake> indeed gonzo_
[09:55] <gonzo_> the fault is down to whoever co-allocated the two services
[09:56] <jakeio> Hmm, right. I may have to be patient and wait for Upu to send the Frequency Agile version then. I've sent him a PM so, I guess I'll discuss it when he increases his arm quota.
[09:56] <gonzo_> not sure if the ism slot existed when the amateur bandplans were drawn up, or was some obscuree unused thing at the time
[09:56] <fsphil> the amateurs or the ISM? :)
[09:57] <gonzo_> by me .075 is certainly noisier than .650, but not unuseable
[09:59] <gonzo_> fsphil, I was wondering if it was the amateurs fault for not avoiding the ism allocation, DTI/GPO or whoever it was in the day for telling them where they could go, or the dti/gpo for plonking ain ism allocation of an already existing service?
[09:59] <gonzo_> don't know the tiome scales
[09:59] <gonzo_> originally the 434 allocation was not used in the UK. It was mostly 418MHz.
[10:01] <mfa298> you might even be able to blame it on the EU/ITU for harmonisation.
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[10:12] <dbrooke> my car alarm remote is 418MHz (MPT1340 compliant), from 1992, so presumably the 434MHz ISM was introduced in the UK after that
[10:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LCARS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LCARS_chase
[10:27] Nick change: uwe__ -> uwe_
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[10:33] <bert_> heey
[10:33] <bert_> guys
[10:33] <bert_> did you launced any balloons?
[10:34] <bert_> launched
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[10:37] <fsphil> nothing up at the moment
[10:41] <bert_> no correct nothing up
[10:41] <bert_> any plans to launch a balloon soon/
[10:42] <arjunnaha> !flighta
[10:42] <arjunnaha> !flights
[10:42] <SpacenearUS> 03arjunnaha: There are no flights currently :(
[10:43] <mfa298> bert_: no doubt someone will in the next week or two, but they're often not announced until a day or two before
[10:44] <mfa298> there's a mailing list where things are often announced https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/ukhas
[10:44] <daveake> Yeah I have one planned for Thursday next week
[10:44] <darsie> Can a mass driver used to shoot stuff to space be suspended on balloons at 30 km or so? Can the balloons be made durable enough?
[10:44] <daveake> No point announcing till I have an idea about the predictions and weather
[10:44] <darsie> The mass driver is a heavy structure many km long.
[10:44] <mfa298> and an ical feed for your calendar http://habitat.habhub.org/calendar/
[10:45] <darsie> s/many/some
[10:45] <bert_> I was wondering if people also use cheap $20 GPS trackers in order to find their payload back?
[10:46] <daveake> They are used sometimes. They do work sometimes.
[10:46] <bert_> Correct I had already read it on the internet. So therefore the HAM-radio is used in order to track them down much better.
[10:47] <mfa298> bert_: depends on location, UK use radio trackers in the ISM band (we can't use amateur radio airborne)
[10:48] <darsie> How does a GPS tracker transmit? GSM?
[10:48] <daveake> The cheap ones, yes
[10:48] <daveake> There are satellite ones (e.g. Spot) too
[10:49] <mfa298> radio trackers also have the benefit that they can give position data throught the flight so predictions can be updated constantly
[10:49] <lz1dev> .8ball is daveake flying on Thursday?
[10:49] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Cannot predict now
[10:50] <mfa298> that 8ball is way to knowledgeable.
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[10:50] <lz1dev> .8ball does 8ball know all?
[10:50] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: As I see it, yes
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[10:52] <daveake> .8ball give me the winning lottery numbers for saturday
[10:52] <SpacenearUS> 03daveake: As I see it, yes
[10:52] <daveake> hmmm simplebot :p
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[10:55] <lz1dev> thats not how an 8ball works
[10:55] <anton02> do you think 433mhz@20dbm fsk is pretty crap
[10:57] <daveake> We dream of 20dBm
[10:57] <darsie> .8ball is 42 one of the lottery numbers?
[10:57] <SpacenearUS> 03darsie: You may rely on it
[10:58] <daveake> question too vague :)
[10:58] <darsie> .8ball is 42 one of the winning lottery numbers?
[10:58] <SpacenearUS> 03darsie: Reply hazy try again
[10:58] <darsie> .8ball is 42 one of the winning lottery numbers?
[10:58] <SpacenearUS> 03darsie: Yes
[10:58] <darsie> cool :)
[10:58] <mfa298> considering 800km has been managed at 10mW no
[10:58] <daveake> still too vague :)
[10:59] <darsie> I'm not playing, anyways ;).
[10:59] <daveake> Yeah for telemetry even 10mW is plenty
[11:00] <daveake> actually it's pretty good for images too; bandwidth is more of an issue
[11:00] <mfa298> 20dBm may also not be allowed under ISM rule or will restrict you in other ways (might mean a limited duty cycle)
[11:01] <daveake> 10mW max in the 433/434 bands in IR2030; 500mW max in part of 868/869
[11:01] <daveake> and then at 10% max DC
[11:02] <anton02> 14dbm is allowed at 434 in australia
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[11:02] <anton02> so im going to bend the rules by 6dbm
[11:03] <darsie> You're bending from 25 mW to 100 mW.
[11:03] <daveake> for what purpose ?
[11:04] <darsie> Don't do that with the road speed limit ;).
[11:05] <anton02> its not like they could find out
[11:06] <darsie> Would you interfere with someones communication?
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Well a quick Google search says your going to disbey the rules so it won't be hard to ACCUSE YOU!
[11:07] <darsie> Is someone publicly logging this channel?
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Yes its all logged
[11:08] <darsie> where?
[11:08] <daveake> "zeusbot" logs it all
[11:08] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/
[11:08] <daveake> anton02 I didn't ask if you thought you'd get away with breaking the rules; I asked what you think you might gain from doing so.,
[11:08] <lz1dev> my pasword is hunter2
[11:10] <dbrooke> 12:08 < lz1dev> my pasword is *******
[11:10] <dbrooke> yep, still works
[11:10] <lz1dev> thank god for irc filtering passwords
[11:10] <darsie> -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Invalid password for lz1dev.
[11:11] <lz1dev> i increment it every time
[11:11] <fsphil> you must have typed it in wrong
[11:13] <fsphil> weechat does the ***** thing when msg'ing nickserv, then immediately shows the whole message in clear in the server buffer
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[11:13] <daveake> that's a wee silly
[11:13] <fsphil> just a wee bug
[11:15] <lz1dev> nickserv actually notifies me of failed logins
[11:15] <lz1dev> thats nice
[11:24] <R34lB0rg> http://www.aprs.org/balloons/balloon2/Balloon2-in-bottle%20022xx.JPG
[11:25] <R34lB0rg> "For next time, we realize there is no need for a chute. Simply cut loose a few balloons and retain a few for a nice descent."
[11:28] <darsie> Can a several km long mass driver used to shoot stuff to space be suspended on balloons at 30 km or so? Can the balloons be made durable enough?
[11:29] <lz1dev> probably not
[11:29] <darsie> Why not?
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> darsie: because it's basically pointless
[11:30] <lz1dev> might be impossible to
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> I note again that falcon 9 first stage fuel costs ~$30000 to get to ~30km and mach 1
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> To lift a payload of 300 tons or so
[11:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0312 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[11:32] <darsie> lz1dev: We can use many balloons.
[11:33] <fsphil> that adds weight
[11:33] <darsie> And we could aluminize them to prevent UV radiation from deteriorating the balloons.
[11:33] <darsie> fsphil: many big balloons.
[11:34] <fsphil> makes no difference
[11:34] <darsie> Sure they add weight. But they provide lift.
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> One large turbojet engine can lift a payload to ~30km or so altitude
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> reusably
[11:35] <lz1dev> and structually soudn
[11:35] <darsie> SpeedEvil: A mass driver can add 7000 m/s.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> darsie: ...
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> darsie: I prefer to use pegusai.
[11:36] <darsie> lz1dev: You think the wind would bend it too much?
[11:36] <gonzo_> you can't metal coat stretchy materials
[11:36] <darsie> gonzo_: Don't use stretchy materials, then.
[11:37] <lz1dev> you have better chances of building a space elevetor than your thing :)
[11:37] <gonzo_> thta is basically what the foil balloon launches are (look for foil/pico)
[11:37] <daveake> still zero
[11:38] <darsie> A problem might be keeping the mass driver in place.
[11:38] <gonzo_> cheapest way to spoace for an individual, pay ESA
[11:38] <fsphil> one of many problems :)
[11:38] <gonzo_> (well, probably the russians, but same sentiment)
[11:38] <darsie> And the payload needs a rocket to raise perigee.
[11:39] <fsphil> so just use a rocket and be done :)
[11:39] <darsie> Or some momentum exchange.
[11:39] <R34lB0rg> I would like to see ascent rate data, is this available via habhub/habitat?
[11:39] <daveake> All payloads have time and altitude, so that's easy
[11:40] <R34lB0rg> gonzo_, paying someone to do what you want is somewhat...
[11:40] <darsie> Noone gave any specific reasons why it's impossible or a bad idea.
[11:40] <fsphil> SpeedEvil did
[11:40] <R34lB0rg> I'd like to do some calculations on diameter an drag - so I need some set of altitude+time data
[11:41] <fsphil> rockets work now, cheaper and lighter and probably safer too
[11:42] <darsie> fsphil: You think operational costs of the finished mass driver would be higher than rocket launch?
[11:42] <fsphil> add development costs there too
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> darsie: you say 'mass driver' and you're utterly not specifying the mass of the payload
[11:43] <darsie> SpeedEvil: Some capsules with stuff. Probably not humans.
[11:44] <darsie> High acceleration tolerant capsules and stuff.
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[11:44] <lz1dev> you want to build a stucture of few kms in the air
[11:44] <daveake> ah "stuff"; that narrows it down, and completely answers the question about mass
[11:44] <lz1dev> xd
[11:44] <fsphil> what about the mass of the mass driver
[11:44] <darsie> Raw materials, food, structural materials, ...
[11:45] <daveake> someone wake me up when we get numbers
[11:45] <fsphil> and when you start pushing your stuff, a lot of your energy will go into pushing your driver towards the ground
[11:46] <darsie> daveake: I haven't decided on the mass of a capsule ;). Could be smaller or bigger capsules.
[11:46] <daveake> well, you said "several km", so go on, have a guess at the mass
[11:47] <darsie> fsphil: yeah, the atmosphere will push the balloons back up.
[11:47] <fsphil> that doesn't help your payload
[11:47] <fsphil> nearly half your energy is lost right there
[11:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> afternoon
[11:49] <fsphil> howdy
[11:49] <darsie> daveake: Hmm, let's try 1 m diameter for the capsules. Could be a ton per coil. Maybe a coil every 10 m. So 100 tons/km or 1000 tons for a 10 km mass driver. Wild guess.
[11:50] <darsie> But maybe 10 cm capsules are better.
[11:51] <darsie> We also need to charge big capacitors. Solar, or with a power cable from ground.
[11:52] <daveake> <ed_mode> Let me know when "big" becomes an engineering unit </ed_mode>
[11:53] <mfa298> darsie: you might want to do the sums on how much gas and therefore size of balloons you need to lift a 1000tons payload.
[11:55] <darsie> "the University of Texas estimated that a mass driver firing a 10 kilogram projectile at 6000 m/s would cost $47 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
[11:55] <fsphil> now imagine the cost of floating that 30km in the air
[11:56] <fsphil> vs. how much it would cost you to hire spacex to do it :)
[11:56] <darsie> Lot's of aluminized plastic and struts.
[11:56] <daveake> Except he wanted bigger - 1m - 10m diameter, so payloads waaay more than 10kg
[11:56] <Ben-AstroSoc> do any of you guys have any experience with AVRlib? had some issues reading an I2C sensor so was looking at their library
[11:56] <darsie> daveake: I added "But maybe 10 cm capsules are better."
[11:57] <fsphil> what's your issue Ben-AstroSoc?
[11:58] <Ben-AstroSoc> sensor looks like it's working on the scope but software isn't seeing any data
[11:59] <darsie> fsphil: Imagine how a mass driver is fully reusable and just needs power.
[11:59] <fsphil> until it breaks
[11:59] <fsphil> and needs more lifting gas
[12:00] <Ben-AstroSoc> just found a library for our specific chip so going to see if that helps
[12:07] <edmoore> back from lunch
[12:07] Action: edmoore looks at scrollback
[12:07] <fsphil> Ben-AstroSoc: may be silly question, remembered pull-up resistors
[12:07] <edmoore> it is potentially better that I stay out of this
[12:08] <R34lB0rg> indeed
[12:08] <fsphil> yes don't ruin lunch
[12:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> pullups are on the breakout
[12:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> we're gonna try a specific library for the chip see if it works properly
[12:11] <Vaizki> in case anyone is interested in LoRa or other 868MHz ISM power splitters.. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Circuits-Power-Splitter-Combiner-700-1050MHz-50Ohm-2-Way-0-SMA-ZN2PD-920W-/271801561590
[12:11] <Vaizki> might even stretch to ADS-B dunno
[12:13] <daveake> Cheers. I have several minicircuits splitters ... they often come up at good prices on ebay
[12:13] <Vaizki> yea I thought this was a good price and nice specs (because of narrow bw)
[12:20] <R34lB0rg> is this approximately correct: a balloon without payload made of 16g/m2 material would be good for about 28km - after that it cannot handle the volume for it's own weight
[12:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> urgh this guy's using the mbed libraries and idk if they work with an atmega328
[12:23] <edmoore> probably not
[12:23] <edmoore> mbed is arm iirc
[12:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[12:24] <R34lB0rg> Ben-AstroSoc, which sensors are you trying to get to work?
[12:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> BME280
[12:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> just trying to get our heads around getting hte I2C working :p
[12:26] <Vaizki> daveake, what would you consider a good price on a wideband mc splitter btw?
[12:27] <edmoore> i2c is simpleish but stateful. I don't like it but it's ultimately not that scary
[12:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> never done it before so debugging it isn't the easiest
[12:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> getting there i hope
[12:27] <edmoore> understanding it is a strong pre-req to doing battle with it, so i would council against using a 'send_over_i2c(message, address)' potted function
[12:28] <edmoore> because that will leave you high-and-dry when it comes to making sense of an oscilloscope capture
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I2C is quite tractable and understandable that way and it is useful to do so
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> USB or PCI(e) or ... - you have almost no hope
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> Unless you have a fancy scope to decode it for you
[12:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> mmph one of our teammates wrote the I2C code and i'm trying to make head nor tail of it
[12:31] <edmoore> read an i2c explanation first
[12:31] <edmoore> then see if you can map their code onto it
[12:32] <edmoore> the important thing is that the one data line is bidirectional
[12:32] <daveake> Vaizki: Last ones I bought were £30 for 4, so that's under ¬10 each
[12:33] <Vaizki> ok that's cheap yes
[12:35] <jakeio> I remember reading on the UKHAS wiki that you could manually adjust the frequency of the NTX2B (non FA version) using the screws under the sticker? Why is the FA version necessary if this is the case?
[12:36] <jakeio> It was this page: https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules:ntx2 (see 'adjustments')
[12:36] <daveake> It's only a small range
[12:37] <fsphil> it's not documented either, might have side effects or other cause undesirable issues
[12:37] <fsphil> fairly sure the NTX2B doesn't have it at all
[12:37] <jakeio> It's 15kHz either way, that's enough to get 434.060 and 434.090 isn't it?
[12:37] <jakeio> Ah, I see.
[12:38] <daveake> It changes the deviation, so your carefully set 425Hz shift will become something else
[12:38] <Ian_> Tweaking the screws can also get you to a less stable state
[12:38] <jakeio> I see. Well, it was worth a shot. I do apologise for my impatience! I'm hoping to get as much done on this during my Easter holiday!
[12:39] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://github.com/boschsensortec/bme280_driver/blob/master/bme280_support.c
[12:40] <Ben-AstroSoc> looking at this at the moment
[12:41] <Upu> don't use them on 434.075 anyway
[12:42] <Upu> loads of noise down there
[12:43] <jakeio> What frequency should typically be used?
[12:43] <jakeio> For HAB.
[12:43] <mfa298> 434.300-434.500 seems to be popular
[12:44] <jakeio> I see.
[12:45] <mfa298> also note that ntx2 and ntx2b are very different internally, the adjustment you mentioned above is for the (drifty) ntx2
[12:45] <jakeio> Ah, right.
[12:46] <jakeio> Yes, someone did mention I think.
[12:46] <Vaizki> Ben-AstroSoc, what are you doing with the BME280? looking quickly at the specs it does not seem to be very good for a HAB flight?
[12:46] <anton02> do you think you could use a stepper motor with mounted antennae to auto lock onto your aircraft and give it the best signal possible
[12:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> Vaizki: it was good enough for an easily accessible sensor to meet the criteria for our project
[12:47] <mfa298> the ntx2b has temperature stabalisation so drifts much less (if at all), that's the one that can also have the -FA firmware put on (which is what makes them more configurable for frequency)
[12:47] <Vaizki> minimum pressure 300hPa.. which is like 10km? minimum temperature -40, humidity 20% RH
[12:48] <Vaizki> what I'm asking is isn't most of your flight going to be outside of those parameters
[12:48] <mfa298> anton02: people commonly use Antenna rotators to point directional antennas at a HAB
[12:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> quite possibly but we just wnt to get to the point where we can return any data
[12:49] <anton02> what happens if your aircraft falls from space and injurs someone
[12:50] <R34lB0rg> someone willing to share ascent rate data?
[12:50] <Ian_> Liability issues anton02. Do you feel lucky? :)
[12:50] <mfa298> anton02: that's why you put a parachute on it, so it doesn't come down fast
[12:51] <mfa298> not a 100% gaurentee but not far off
[12:51] <R34lB0rg> mfa298, or as arhub has done: use more than one balloon
[12:51] <Ian_> You mitigate the risk by making the descent controlled and the package relatively safe, with no sharp bits and bounceable . . .
[12:51] <daveake> Chute is better as it comes down quicker
[12:52] <R34lB0rg> daveake, you can have any descent rate with a balloon
[12:53] <R34lB0rg> ok, but not the gradual breaking getting into denser atmosphere
[12:53] <daveake> for the same landing speed, a chute has a much higher average speed
[12:53] <mfa298> R34lB0rg: that's usually likely to be more a way of getting a payload to float - been done in the UK as well.
[12:53] <mfa298> and what happens when the 2nd balloon bursts
[12:54] <Vaizki> ...
[12:54] <R34lB0rg> mfa298, you make the second balloon with 1/2 the gas
[12:56] <mfa298> at which point it's more weight for the first balloon to lift meaning you need more gas in the 1st balloon so lower burst altitude for it.
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[12:56] <mfa298> you can do it, but in almost all cases 1 balloon and a parachute will be easier/ cheaper/ safer / ...
[12:57] <daveake> I can't think of a single advantage to using a balloon for this, unless (unusually) you want the flight to travel further. The balloon isn't reusable so you've lost that cost; needs more gas; lands further away; risks either balloon being scratched by the other or the other's cord
[12:58] <LazyLeopard> ...and you need a 'chute anyway in case the second balloon bursts.
[12:58] <daveake> Need one anyway here, as you're supposed to use a chute
[12:59] <LazyLeopard> ...'cos you *really* don't want a payload coming down without something to slow it.
[12:59] <daveake> Though it is possible to get permission for not using a chute - Steve did for the paper plane
[13:00] <LazyLeopard> Aye, but the average payload isn't going to glide like that. ;)
[13:00] <daveake> No :)
[13:11] <gonzo_> twin balloons on the foil pico flights and a padded payload is not uncommon
[13:11] <gonzo_> but that is a bit more predictable outcome
[13:11] <gonzo_> (and no chute)
[13:12] <gonzo_> as long as the fill is such that neither balloon had enough fill for +ve lift
[13:15] <LazyLeopard> Foil balloons will not fragment in the way latex ones would, so you'd still have a far bit of air resistance from the collapsed balloon to slow the payload's descent a bit.
[13:16] <fsphil> no guarantee
[13:17] <gonzo_> nope, but a well padded payload helps mitigate
[13:17] <fsphil> I believe there was a case where one came back with no balloon
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[13:20] <gonzo_> didn't tie the knot tight?
[13:21] <gonzo_> I usually put a carrier bag chute on. Just in case and to make the descent a bit longer and less fluttery. Just for the fun of it. Float picos are not really worth chasing
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[13:22] <fsphil> can't find it now
[13:22] Nick change: Crashbone|Away -> Crashbone
[13:22] <fsphil> but I did find this, http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/80/Pathfinder_Air_Bags_-_GPN-2000-000484.jpg
[13:22] <gonzo_> all said from the basis of only half a dozen-ish flights
[13:22] <fsphil> I always imagined pathfinder and it's airbags where smaller than that
[13:22] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: A couple of days ago I got a 8 gram quadcopter.
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: Would make a fun alternative to a chute if you could detect the ground
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[13:26] <gonzo_> just dropping it could be fun. It#s probably not classed as a drone till it's under power which you could do when in remote ctrl range?
[13:27] <R34lB0rg> do pico/floaters usually carry a label "if found pleace contact..."?
[13:29] <mfa298> fsphil: I've got a vauge recollection of a few picos failing at the neck a few years back as well.
[13:29] <LazyLeopard> fsphil: There was one where the payload and foil balloon became separated.
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: probably, yes
[13:31] <LazyLeopard> I remember tracking one which had an almost straight-line descent profile, so probably impacted at over 50 m/s.
[13:31] <gonzo_> I had one split at the neck, but didn't separate. That was because I was holding the filled balloon for 20mins waiting to get gps lock in wind
[13:31] <gonzo_> damaged that area of the neck
[13:32] <R34lB0rg> is there a list of light weight foils available somewhere? thickness, weight, strength
[13:32] <adamgreig> someone nearly got banned from habitat for a pico launched without a parachute
[13:32] <gonzo_> it came down not far away. Went to recover but trees claimed that one
[13:32] <adamgreig> plummeted at high velocity into central london or something stupid
[13:32] <R34lB0rg> gonzo_, you should handle latex with gloves
[13:32] <gonzo_> that was a single latex wasn;'t it adamgreig?
[13:32] <LazyLeopard> adamgreig: Sounds like the one I'm remembering...
[13:33] <gonzo_> they were right royally embarassed?
[13:33] <adamgreig> yes think it was a latex rather than foil
[13:33] <LazyLeopard> Luckily landed in park land.
[13:33] <adamgreig> actually got recovered and all
[13:34] <LazyLeopard> Yeah.
[13:34] <gonzo_> words were had
[13:35] <LazyLeopard> IIRC it had been launched with the tracker in a padded envelope, but the envelope became un-sealed and the tracker (batteries, antenna and all) fell out.
[13:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah, RUD
[13:35] <gonzo_> 100gm latex. Which is a bit of a borderline case for being pico. but needs a chute
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> That's a nice idea in principle.
[13:36] <gonzo_> I bubble wrap mine. So even the bare payload isn't going to do more than a light boing off a greehouse roof
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> Payload launched in SAE
[13:37] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[13:37] <gonzo_> if yoiu can drop it in a postbox, even better
[13:37] <R34lB0rg> gonzo_, bubble wrap could burst
[13:37] <LazyLeopard> Not so much if the SAE is recovered empty. ;)
[13:39] <R34lB0rg> haha, payload being an addressed envelope with a note "please take me to the closest postbox"
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[14:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gOAUTgth/
[14:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> still getting no data
[14:09] <Ben-AstroSoc> well
[14:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> it returns 0x80 0x0D repeatedly
[14:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> getting the right structure now but no data
[14:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> wondering if sensor needs to be initialised or something
[14:27] <fsphil> be worth querying register 0xD0, it should read back the version id
[14:28] <fsphil> which according to the datasheet is 0x60
[14:28] <fsphil> would at least verify your I2C code is working
[14:31] <fsphil> says it goes to sleep mode by default too
[14:31] <fsphil> that might be your problem
[14:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> possibly, its only ever returning 0xEE
[14:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> as a 'data pint'
[14:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> point*
[14:32] <Vaizki> you need to declare memory_read etc vars that you access in the ISR as volatile
[14:32] <fsphil> see page 27 in the datasheet for the modes
[14:33] <Vaizki> not doing so can screw up everything
[14:34] <daveake> FWIW your comments on these 2 lines have the wrong values:
[14:34] <daveake> #define Memory_WR 0xEE //i.e 11101111
[14:34] <daveake> #define Memory_RD 0xEF //i.e 11101110 (lowest bit determins r or w)
[14:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah i ust realised
[14:35] <daveake> EE is correct for WR, but your binary comment is EF. Opposite goes for the Read line
[14:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> there was some confusion on communication
[14:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm getting 60 back now
[14:36] <daveake> / Read 16 bytes from the memory. Note that, as per figure 7.3
[14:36] <daveake> is wrong too as you read 8 bytes
[14:36] <fsphil> #define baud 51;
[14:36] <fsphil> why 51?
[14:36] <fsphil> and you don't need ";"
[14:36] <fsphil> it might cause you problems if you leave it
[14:37] <fsphil> I would suggest not having all that code running from an ISR
[14:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> i think some of this was built up from a technician's example hence some weird comments
[14:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> version query worked
[14:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> not getting anyn data querying the 8 data registers
[14:38] <fsphil> you at least know I2C is electrically fine now
[14:39] <fsphil> but yeah, read page 27
[14:39] <fsphil> https://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/BST-BME280_DS001-10.pdf
[14:40] <Ben-AstroSoc> just reading it now
[14:46] <Vaizki> and calling _delay_ms() in an ISR is just asking for trouble
[14:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> i wasn't aware we did
[14:48] <Vaizki> hmm maybe you don't! :)
[14:48] <Vaizki> need coffee...
[14:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah set mode to normal, still nothing
[14:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> hmm
[14:51] <Ben-AstroSoc> aha ok i set the overscan to x1 for both temp and press and i have 2 bytes of data now
[14:51] <Vaizki> do you have a LA or bus pirate btw?
[14:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> come again?
[14:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> >_>
[14:53] <Vaizki> that would be a no then :)
[14:54] <Vaizki> http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate
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[14:56] <Brian_> hi all, as mentioned before i've been looking into raido tracking and due to budget thinking of going with the Yupiteru MVT-7100 as seen it mentioned on a couple of sites does anyone else use this model?
[14:56] <Ben-AstroSoc> messing wiht the overscan got me 7 bits of data
[14:56] <Ben-AstroSoc> im gonna roll with it :')
[14:57] <daveake> Yeah the Yupi is a good scanner
[14:57] <Vaizki> too few scanners with SSB...
[14:57] <Brian_> great what module transmisster would i need for a pi?
[14:58] <daveake> NTX2B is a good choice
[14:59] <Brian_> is there a suiltable module to connect to pi gpio that would also allow me to connect other modules ie BMP180
[14:59] <daveake> NTX2B
[15:04] <Brian_> http://www.pridopia.co.uk/pi-p-hab.html ?
[15:04] <Ben-AstroSoc> looks like we're only getting 6 data bytes
[15:04] <Ben-AstroSoc> hm
[15:04] <R34lB0rg> lightest PET blankets I have found so far are 9g/m^2 http://www.sheldahl.com/documents/MLI Blankets.pdf - no price
[15:05] <R34lB0rg> any recommendations?
[15:09] <Brian_> anyone know anyone in east anglia who would like to work with me on first flight?
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[15:13] <Ben-AstroSoc> getting all 8 bytes now, just working out why sometimes it doesn't read everything
[15:13] <Vaizki> check on scope that all is sent
[15:14] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm getting the right response on ~60% of queries
[15:20] <mfa298> Brian_: you can always make your own system, or if you want to buy something look at the Pi in the Sky board
[15:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> i wonder if it's a timing issue
[15:23] <Brian_> thanks mfa298 i see it comes with gps module as well is this for finding when it comes back?
[15:24] <daveake> It's for knowing where it is throughout the flight
[15:25] <daveake> Pi reads GPS position; reads some sensors; combines the data; formats and sends over radio
[15:25] <daveake> Essentially, that's all there is to it
[15:26] <daveake> And before anyone reminds me, you don't need a Pi for that ... many simple microcontrollers will do the same job, and better (less power)
[15:27] <mfa298> contary to what CSI etc might lead you to believe, GPS just lets the receiving device know where it is, you then need some way for the gps device to tell you where it is (map + eyes in a care gps, radio on a HAB payload)
[15:29] <Brian_> ahh ok thanks, i already have a spare pi a+ so going to use that hence looking at ad don modules for it, i've previously done a project using a usb bu353 module and gpsd sill will need to work out how to decode the data from the piinthesky module into something meaningful to send over radio
[15:31] <Vaizki> they give you the software too
[15:31] <Brian_> excellent
[15:31] <mfa298> there's plenty of code examples out there, or just run PITS software.
[15:32] <mfa298> although if you've got the time it's a great learning experience to build your own board and write your own software.
[15:33] <Brian_> hmm I will look into that if i do a second flight,
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[15:38] <Brian_> really want to find someone to work with though
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[15:47] <edmoore> that's definitely more fun of course but note than probably most hab projects are done solo
[15:47] <edmoore> so it's well within the grasp of anyone keen as a solo project
[15:50] <mfa298> you may find other interested people at local Amateur Radio clubs/ Maker/Hack Spaces etc.
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[17:48] <SpeedEvil> https://www.facebook.com/todynho.show/videos/1046983375340895/ - 'how to get your hobby banned'
[17:51] Action: darsie politely refuses fb cookies.
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[19:07] Nick change: DL7AD1 -> DL7AD
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[19:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG7FIH - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG7FIH
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[19:33] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: that's remarkable
[19:33] <edmoore> remarkably dangerous too
[19:45] Nick change: vikash-afk -> vikash
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[19:50] <SM0ULC-Reb> insane
[19:51] <SM0ULC-Reb> keep it up and it will be great contender for darwin awards..
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[19:57] Nick change: vikash -> vikash-afk
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[20:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BlueDot after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BlueDot
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[20:35] <R34lB0rg> even a well deserved darwin award has to be earned
[20:36] <Upu> holy health and safety violation batman
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[20:55] <Laurenceb_> http://www.emdrive.com/EmDriveForceMeasurement.pdf
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> emdrive confirmed fake by emdrive
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[21:35] <SpeedEvil> :/
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[21:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ARY2T after 038 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ARY2T
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[23:17] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03Legionowo after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Legionowo
[23:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TheFlash_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TheFlash_chase
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[00:00] --- Thu Mar 31 2016