highaltitude.log.20160328

[00:00] <Ian_> With a large cylinder you would usually use a regulator. What part of the world do you hail from?
[00:01] <jackdotbin> You'll have to go through a company like Praxair (depending on where you are) that caters to commercial and industrial helium users. They usually rent you a cylinder with a regulator.
[00:01] <Ian_> !wiki helium supplier
[00:01] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: No results for your query
[00:01] <Ian_> !wiki lifting gas
[00:01] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: No results for your query
[00:02] <Ian_> .wiki helium
[00:02] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: Wiki page 03helium_valve (ideas) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/ideas:helium_valve
[00:05] <schoppenhauer> jackdotbin: I am from germany
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[00:07] <Ian_> LunarLander and DL7AD amongst others will be aware of the gas supply arrangements in Germany
[00:07] <schoppenhauer> Ian_: Germany
[00:07] <Ian_> But they will likely be in bed just now
[00:08] <daey> is helium even the right solution for a "serious" (i assume that means going for a very high height) attempt?
[00:08] <jackdotbin> schoppenhauer: http://www.praxair.de/gases/buy-helium-gas-or-liquid-helium
[00:08] <daey> http://www.westfalen-ag.de/gase/sondergase/helium/ballongas.html
[00:08] <Ian_> Hydrogen is an alternative but not usually a recommended starting point
[00:09] <jackdotbin> Hydrogen is definitely cheaper, but more explodey
[00:10] <Ian_> gnite for now though. Lots of people to answer your questions during the day
[00:10] <schoppenhauer> daey: http://www.westfalen-ag.de/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_Westfalen7433__28a33a0ec4.jpg this is not the kind of valve one wants to use, is it?
[00:10] <schoppenhauer> this looks like a thingy for filling small party balloons
[00:12] <Ian_> It certainly doesn't look like it. Best to ask the question during the day when the more experienced guys can answer your question without any confusion
[00:13] <schoppenhauer> Ian_: it looks like the thingy from http://www.partydiscount24.de/helium-ballongas-15-27-ballons-balloon-time-.html?ref=easymarketing_shopping&refID=easymarketing_shopping&gclid=CJaegLSM4ssCFeQp0wodriIKoQ
[00:15] <Ian_> .wiki helium supplies
[00:15] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: No results for your query
[00:15] <schoppenhauer> so the question I have is & what kind of valve does one use?
[00:16] <schoppenhauer> because I would have imagined some sleeve that leeds somewhere rather than those black thingies for party balloons.
[00:16] <schoppenhauer> which one has to knit to get helium
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[00:41] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:58] <DL7AD1> Ian_ schoppenhauer i'm still awake
[00:59] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD1: ok.
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[00:59] <DL7AD1> schoppenhauer: you can get helium at hornbach
[01:00] <daey> seriously? :D
[01:00] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD1: yes, my question was about the valves
[01:00] <daey> helium or balloon gas?
[01:00] <DL7AD1> balloon gas
[01:00] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD1: they all have these black thingies for filling up small balloons.
[01:01] <DL7AD1> schoppenhauer: oh. we use a "sicherheitsgasdruckminderer"
[01:01] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD1: but for filling up a larger one one would probably not want such a thing.
[01:01] <DL7AD1> im not sure if you can get it there too
[01:01] Nick change: DL7AD1 -> DL7AD
[01:02] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD: well, I am afraid that those things come in lots and lots of different sizes and forms, so one gets compatibility issues, right?
[01:02] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD: at least I would expect so
[01:02] <DL7AD> schoppenhauer: thomas KT5TK1 got our valves.
[01:03] <DL7AD> ping KT5TK1
[01:05] <schoppenhauer> DL7AD: http://goo.gl/J7qRm2 well, such a thing (which is a gasdruckminderer) looks more reasonable, but this one's for propane gas I think
[01:05] <daey> yeah those are for camping gas tanks
[01:05] <daey> they probably use a different gewinde
[01:06] <DL7AD> true
[01:06] <DL7AD> the gewinde differes for the gas
[01:06] <daey> but those hornbach gas bottles are made for ballons i guess? i cant believe they sell stuff that needs further equipment that they dont also sell
[01:06] <DL7AD> schoppenhauer: brennbares gas und nicht brennbares gas haben andere gewinde
[01:06] <KT5TK1> We use one of these: http://www.hornbach.de/shop/Druckminderer-CFH-fuer-Schutzgasschweissgeraet-DR-516/5160136/artikel.html
[01:07] <DL7AD> schoppenhauer: linksdrehende gewinde und rechtsdrehende
[01:07] <KT5TK1> For He you need rechtsdrehend
[01:08] <daey> Ventilanschluss DIN 477 Nr. 6, W 21,8 x 1/14
[01:08] <daey> http://www.hornbach.de/shop/Ballongas-20-L-Fuellung/3629683/artikel.html#artikeldetails
[01:08] <daey> http://www.hornbach.de/shop/Ballongasfuellstutzen/3891967/artikel.html?sourceArt=3629683&url=3629683&trackArticleCrossType=cs
[01:08] <KT5TK1> Yes, they fit exactly on the 20l He tanks
[01:09] <schoppenhauer> KT5TK1: is that a coincidence?
[01:09] <daey> schoppenhauer: no they are linked in the product page for the 20l bottle :p
[01:09] <KT5TK1> No, I've a Hornbach close by
[01:10] <daey> page even tells you if its available there
[01:10] <daey> apparently the one close to me has 6 bottles
[01:10] <schoppenhauer> no I meant what KT5TK1 said when he said he uses http://www.hornbach.de/shop/Druckminderer-CFH-fuer-Schutzgasschweissgeraet-DR-516/5160136/artikel.html
[01:11] <daey> damn they want 100bucks for the bottle o.o
[01:11] <KT5TK1> It's a good deal since you can get the tank for unlimited time. You just need to pay Pfand one time
[01:12] <daey> i know. but the propane gas bottles cost much less
[01:12] <schoppenhauer> KT5TK1: so you're saying http://www.hornbach.de/shop/Druckminderer-CFH-fuer-Schutzgasschweissgeraet-DR-516/5160136/artikel.html and http://www.hornbach.de/shop/Ballongas-20-L-Fuellung/3629683/artikel.html#artikeldetails fit together?
[01:13] <KT5TK1> yes, exactly
[01:13] <KT5TK1> It's a nice pair to fill foil balloons
[01:13] <schoppenhauer> ok. I just wonder & why this DIN-stuff is not mentioned on the valve.
[01:13] <KT5TK1> But it's slow for filling big Latex baloons
[01:13] <schoppenhauer> so I guess it is just a coincidence that they fit, is it?
[01:14] <KT5TK1> It's a DIN norm for non-flammable gasses
[01:14] <daey> the bottles HAVE to use said threads
[01:15] <daey> therefore the pressure reductor for said Protectiongas has to use the same threads, otherwise it woudl be unusable
[01:15] <schoppenhauer> ok. thank you so far!
[01:15] <schoppenhauer> another question: what is the difference between balloon gas and helium?
[01:16] <KT5TK1> Balloon gas is not-so-pure Helium
[01:16] <schoppenhauer> ok.
[01:16] <daey> hornbach says >90%
[01:16] <KT5TK1> pure He is much more expensive
[01:17] <daey> so my understanding is: H > He > Balloongas (if you go for height)
[01:18] <KT5TK1> In general yes, but in practise there is not so much difference
[01:18] <schoppenhauer> the other thing is & they say 20L. they probably mean that the bottle is 20L. they also tell how much a filled bottle weights. but not how much the helium in it weights or how muc pressure it has, or do they?
[01:18] <schoppenhauer> so one could estimate how much gas at normal pressure one would get
[01:19] <daey> 200bar
[01:19] <schoppenhauer> ah it sais
[01:19] <daey> 1.8m3
[01:19] <schoppenhauer> 3,6m³
[01:19] <KT5TK1> They are usually 3000 psi
[01:19] <daey> im looking at the 10L bottle
[01:20] <KT5TK1> What Balloon do you want to fill?
[01:20] <schoppenhauer> none, currently
[01:20] <schoppenhauer> if you have any suggestion, let me know ;)
[01:20] <schoppenhauer> as I said before, just doin research right now
[01:20] <KT5TK1> Depends on what mission you want to launch.
[01:21] <KT5TK1> Long duration: Foil balloons
[01:21] <KT5TK1> Up/Down Latex
[01:22] <KT5TK1> Or you build your own by sealing foils together
[01:22] <schoppenhauer> I'd like to convince myself that the earth is in fact round, so & rather Up/Down
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[01:22] <schoppenhauer> but I guess the first flights are better done without any payload except a tracker.
[01:23] <daey> schoppenhauer: have you looked into solarballoons?
[01:24] <KT5TK1> OK, for a common meteorological latex balloon of 1200 grams you can fill 2-3 of them with one 20l tank
[01:24] <schoppenhauer> daey: no.
[01:24] <KT5TK1> In which country are you?
[01:24] <schoppenhauer> germany
[01:24] <daey> schoppenhauer: if you are interested in building the balloon, its probably the most interesting way to do it, as you do not need any gas at all
[01:24] <daey> just a sunny day :3
[01:25] <KT5TK1> OK, so due to regulations in DL I recommend to stay below 500g total weight
[01:25] <schoppenhauer> I need an insurance anyway, iirc
[01:25] <daey> schoppenhauer: https://assets.goodstatic.com/s3/magazine/assets/492948/original/13601584551-59stepsto.jpg=s750x1300
[01:25] <daey> with that thing you dont :p
[01:26] <schoppenhauer> solar bballoons sound interesting
[01:26] <KT5TK1> https://kt5tk.wordpress.com/2015/07/01/launching-balloons-in-germany/
[01:26] <daey> KT5TK1: we only have the 500g limitation here?
[01:27] <KT5TK1> You can launch larger balloons, but then you need to file a NOTAM
[01:27] <daey> yes. but 500g sounds insanely high
[01:28] <KT5TK1> high for what?
[01:28] <daey> compared to the 2m UK limitation
[01:28] <KT5TK1> In the UK you need to file a NOTAM regardless of weight
[01:29] <daey> im pretty sure someone from uk told me sub 2m diameter/length/height etc. they dont
[01:29] <KT5TK1> So the 500g limit in Germany is our luck
[01:30] <KT5TK1> You only need more if you wan to break altitude records
[01:31] <daey> 2016-02-17 12:15 < gonzo_> below 2mtrs size (at any point in the flight) CAA are not interested
[01:31] <KT5TK1> Our payloads are usually below 100g
[01:31] <daey> 2016-02-17 12:16 < AndyEsser> payload/line/balloon etc can not exceed 2meters in any direction
[01:31] <daey> 2016-02-17 12:16 < eroomde> no linear dimension can exceed 2m at any point during flight
[01:31] <daey> thats my source
[01:31] <daey> https://kt5tk.wordpress.com/2015/07/01/launching-balloons-in-germany/#jp-carousel-726
[01:32] <KT5TK1> Well, a 1200g balloon can easily exceed 5m diameter at high altitude
[01:32] <daey> ah lol thats from your page :D
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[07:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[11:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03Legionowo after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Legionowo
[11:19] <arjunnaha> Has anyone seen/used this before? http://bit.ly/1MMvobm
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[11:24] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[11:26] <daveake> arjunnaha: It was mentioned here last year, and Chimpusmaximus made one like it - https://goo.gl/photos/WoF4mMWFnoHBa9T37
[11:26] <daveake> dunno if it's been used for a flight yet
[11:27] <arjunnaha> Ah, thanks
[11:27] <Chimpusmaximus> Yep used twice
[11:27] <Chimpusmaximus> I have some spare
[11:30] <daveake> I'll try one then :)
[11:31] <daveake> What were your thoughts after using it ?
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[11:53] <arjunnaha> Chimpusmaximus: Do you have a printer?
[11:56] <Ian_> DL7AD thanks for coming to my rescue early this morning. I was well out of my depth :) I had disengaged and went to bed.
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[11:58] <Ian_> Interesting 0.5kg no NOTAM limit, probably a different interpretation of the rule/thinking that gives us less than 2m at any point in flight.
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> 0.5kg? where
[11:59] <Ian_> The 0.5kg probably gives less than 2m at any point in the flight where the CAA might have an interest.
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> nvm
[11:59] <Ian_> SpeedEvil Germany
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[11:59] <SpeedEvil> Is that 0.5kg payload, or total?
[11:59] <Ian_> Total
[11:59] <Ian_> Actually sounds more attractive?
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> In some ways that's more generous
[12:00] <Ian_> Yes. perhaps the thinking is that it would be 2m where aircraft might be. Forward thinking perhaps rather than one size fits all
[12:01] <jakeio> Ian_: is there any particular recommendation for the wires to connect microcontroller to NTX2 and GPS? Or will just about anything do?
[12:02] <Ian_> Best to avoid solid core as it can fracture under cold and vibration.
[12:02] <fsphil> stripboard or PCB
[12:02] <jakeio> Stripboard, most likely.
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> http://habhub.org/calc/ - for example - says you can get a 200g payload with a 300g balloon to 29km
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> burst diameter is near 8m
[12:03] <Ian_> Eek. XYL taking me shopping afk.
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[12:09] <jakeio> Does anyone know the deviation of the NTX2B-FA per volt supplied?
[12:12] <manterolat> The wiki lists the deviation for the NTX2/NTX2B here: https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules:ntx2?s[]=ntx2
[12:16] <manterolat> It says the deviation should be around 1.9 kHz per Volt
[12:20] <jakeio> Yes, I'm just trying to calculate resistance values for my potential divider in order to get that down significantly...
[12:22] <jakeio> So, I want about a 0.211v maximum voltage to get about 400Hz deviation?
[12:24] <manterolat> Yeah. The voltage can vary slightly (here: https://ukhas.org.uk/ntx2_resistor_calculation?s[]=ntx2 they use 0.24v to get 480 kHz)
[12:25] <edmoore> 0.2ish V sounds right from memory
[12:28] <manterolat> Even if it's not precisely 400 Hz it should be alright. Any deviation between 350-500 Hz is fine
[12:28] <manterolat> You can later find the actual deviation in dl-fldigi
[12:29] <jakeio> daveake: could I ask what your series resistor between the NTX2 and the Tx on the pi resistance value was for your raspberry pi flight? Thanks!
[12:29] <edmoore> i would encourage you to work it out
[12:29] <edmoore> with v=ir
[12:29] <jakeio> I did.
[12:29] <edmoore> there is too much 'i must copy you' for simeple stuff in hab
[12:29] <jakeio> I am checking my result!
[12:30] <edmoore> check it with a radio :)
[12:32] <jakeio> On the datasheet, the NTX2B says it has "TXD input resistance is 100k© to ground", does this mean it splits off here (thus I can create a potential divider)?
[12:33] <edmoore> well in that case fair - many flight computers are open source so schematics are available all over - e.g. here are the Pi In The Sky schematics https://github.com/PiInTheSky/pits-hardware
[12:33] <jakeio> The table below suggests this, the Maths adds up...
[12:34] <edmoore> which only uses very tried-and-test stuff in ukhas, so really any ukhas board that has flown more than once would make a decent reference
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[12:35] <jakeio> Thanks edmoore, that's rather useful! Don't worry, I am not copy-pasting all my preparation from previous projects. I sit here now with a sheet covered in resistor calculations (scribbles in reality).
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[12:36] <edmoore> scribbles are the best
[12:36] <Chimpusmaximus> arjunnaha: actualy have two
[12:37] <jakeio> edmoore: do you know what I mean regarding my question on the NTX2B datasheet?
[12:37] <Chimpusmaximus> daveake i looked at a few different designs along with Steve. Possibly a few weak points as with anything 3d printed.
[12:38] <Chimpusmaximus> daveake drop me your address and will sort some out for you to try etc
[12:39] <edmoore> jakeio: sorry just reading the backlog
[12:39] <edmoore> re the 100kohm?
[12:39] <edmoore> i would just treat that as 100k-ohm input impedance and so make the output impedance of your potential divider much less
[12:39] <edmoore> like <= 10* less
[12:41] <edmoore> what it means really is that your potential divider has to be able to deliver 2ishV to 100kOhm without being pulled around by that current (0.02mA)
[12:42] <edmoore> and the rule of thumb for that is that the output impedance of the divider wants to be <= 10k if feeding a 100k input impedance
[12:42] <edmoore> so for example if the divider was 20k and 20k, that would have an output impdeance of 10k so would work (do you know about the Thevenin Equivalent of a circuit?)
[12:43] <edmoore> if you do recognise the worth thevenin, this should all make sense. If not, it might be a useful 20 mins of google reading to understand the thevenin equivalent circuit which lets you calculate impedances
[12:46] <edmoore> so i suppose i should say, you are right to ask the question 'should i model the 100kOhm ntx2b resistor in my PD calculations' and the answer is technically a yes, but in reality a know, provided the output impedance of the PD is low compared to the input impedance of ntx2b. And very often in electronics we deliberately design stuff like that so we can
[12:46] <edmoore> separate our circuits out into independent chunks that we can design and model in isolation. It makes life very much easier.
[12:46] <edmoore> in reality a 'no'*
[12:46] <jakeio> OK, time for some google reading! Sorry for all the questions, I'm a 6.1 student and I've not done much electronics before!
[12:47] <edmoore> i don;t know what 6.1 means i'm afriad but don't apologise for all the questions
[12:47] <edmoore> this is why we hab
[12:47] <jakeio> Just to ask, and excuse my use of MS Paint here, can I treat the circuit in this way, as a very standard potential divider (the bottom wire goes to ground): http://i.imgur.com/r1lVHGC.png
[12:47] <edmoore> best excuse to learn a large amount of stuff among a bunch of disciplines
[12:47] <edmoore> in the persuit of something cool
[12:47] <jakeio> Indeed. It certainly is!
[12:48] <edmoore> so all my waffling above is to say basically 'you can ignore the 100k within the ntx2b if you design the PD right'
[12:48] <jakeio> Right. That's annoying, I was hoping I could use it, I thought it was as in my really really bad diagram!
[12:49] <edmoore> oh well you probably can!
[12:49] <edmoore> read the thevenin stuff
[12:49] <edmoore> that should hopefully give you what you need
[12:50] <jakeio> Right, I've found a rather old website called HyperPhysics - they appear to have what is needed.
[12:51] <manterolat> If I'm getting this right (this seems interesting), to measure resistance of an open circuit you replace voltage sources (batteries) with short circuits and measure resistance?
[12:52] <edmoore> so the lesson to take from reading it i hope is that you can model any network of resistors and voltages (like a PD) as a single voltage source in series with a single resistor. With that model you can then work out the behaviour of that circuit under different loads
[12:52] <edmoore> manterolat: sort of, yes
[12:53] <edmoore> it's really just a useful simplification for modelling the useful parts of some network of components. The reason i brought it up was because it will introduce you to, if you've not met it already, the idea of 'output impedance'
[12:53] <edmoore> which is relevent to whether or not you can either use or just completely ignore the 100k 'input impedance' of the ntx2b
[12:54] <jakeio> Wait, so [bad MS Paint diagram incoming] could I do this: http://imgur.com/Pu66A29
[12:55] <jakeio> Again, prolific apologies for the diagram!
[12:55] <jakeio> The voltmeters are just there to show what the voltage drop should be.
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[12:56] <manterolat> edmoore: Is this "output impedance" the same impedance taken into account for antennas, so you can decide whether to use a 50 ohm coax or 75 ohm?
[12:56] <bertrik> I think you can do it that way, but I would just design the divider such that it doesn't really matter whether the input impedance is 100k or 200k, which means using a potential divider with much lower resistance values
[12:57] <edmoore> the concept is the same yes, though it gets a bit more complicated at radio frequencies
[12:57] <edmoore> jakeio: work out the voltage when the pi tx pin is at 0v
[12:58] <edmoore> the voltage at the ntx2b pin
[12:58] <edmoore> what bertrik has just said is exactly what i was advising further up
[13:01] <jakeio> Correct me if I'm wring. Surely that's zero because I've got no input voltage? (The voltage you asked me to calculate). And yes, edmoore I do intend to redesign my PD as you and bertrik suggest, I just need to graps the concept properly first!
[13:02] <edmoore> yep
[13:02] <edmoore> oh sorry i missed a step of explanation
[13:02] <edmoore> yes
[13:03] <edmoore> so sometimes with these electronics things operating too close to the rails can cause some small non-linear problems
[13:03] <jakeio> How do you mean "too close to the rails"?
[13:03] <edmoore> so basically instead of operating between 0 and 0.2V i might be a bit more inclined to operate between say 1 and 1.2V
[13:03] <edmoore> power rails - 0V and 3.3V
[13:04] <jakeio> Ah, I see, however, surely this is no problem? All I need is a change of ~0.2V?
[13:04] <edmoore> that's correct
[13:05] <edmoore> you can pick any operating point 'x' and just do x and x+0.2V
[13:05] <edmoore> at the moment you have x = 0
[13:05] <edmoore> in that ms paint diagram
[13:06] <jakeio> Ah, sorry, I misread your message.
[13:06] <jakeio> I read it might be more inclined not "i might be more inclined"
[13:06] <jakeio> However, how am I supposed to get a 1.0v signal when the pi outputs either 3.3v or 0v?
[13:07] <jakeio> I have no second pin to use to output voltage.
[13:07] <jakeio> Which I could use.
[13:07] <jakeio> If one existed...
[13:09] <jakeio> Oh, no, I see a way.
[13:10] <jakeio> Sorry, yes, I can just adjust my potential divider.
[13:10] <jakeio> No, wait, I can't!
[13:11] <jakeio> I shall do some reading and hopefully find a solution. Thanks edmoore
[13:11] <edmoore> that's what that link does
[13:11] <edmoore> https://ukhas.org.uk/_detail/guides:ntx2_divider.jpg?id=ntx2_resistor_calculation
[13:12] <edmoore> see there are 3 resistprs there
[13:12] <edmoore> resistors*
[13:12] <edmoore> and the pi tx pin connects the third either up to 3v3 or down to 0v
[13:12] <jakeio> Oh, I see, you're using the Vcc too.
[13:12] <jakeio> Right, that makes sense.
[13:13] <jakeio> Thank you edmoore
[13:13] <jakeio> I'll stop bothering you now.
[13:13] <edmoore> no problem!
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[13:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BV2DQ-13 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BV2DQ-13
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[14:04] <DL7AD> Ian_: no problem :D
[14:22] <jakeio> Can anyone recommend a supplier for resistors in the UK?
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> As a starting point, you should get a kit
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Resistors-Metal-Film-300-Pack-10-each-30-values-1-4w-1-Kit-Assortment-Mix-UK-/111148362636?hash=item19e0f56b8c:g:4dIAAOxyiRlSa-nO - for example
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/64-Values-1-ohm-10M-ohm-1-4W-1-Metal-Film-Resistor-Assortment-Kit-1280pcs-UK-/131131304032?hash=item1e8808e860:g:zGEAAMXQEgpTFBD3 or
[14:26] <jakeio> Thanks!
[14:28] <R34lB0rg> interesting: a solar cell takes about 15-30min. to produce the same amount of energy as the same weight of li-battery can store
[14:28] <jakeio> I'll go with the second one! Better value!
[14:28] <edmoore> uk.farnell.com is generally the place to get components in small qtys
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> farnell, ebay, aliexpress (if you don't care about the delay) rs, all work
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=common/home - for more HAB specific stuff
[14:32] <edmoore> you'll have a happier life as an engineer if you choose good distributors that provide datasheets over random ebay and chinese stuff
[14:32] <edmoore> so farnell and rs are good
[14:32] <edmoore> but when on a hobby budget sometimes ebay wins
[14:33] <edmoore> but i think for components its not really worth it
[14:33] <LazyLeopard> Aye. You can save yourself all that fun that comes from looking at a random miniscule chip and trying to figure out which corner is pin 1.
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> ++
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> It depends what you're doing.
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> ESP8266 isn't really available from conventional distributors
[14:36] <LazyLeopard> (Knowing, of course, that getting it wrong will be (briefly) exciting as the magic smoke escapes.
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[15:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Getin_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Getin_chase
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[16:10] <jakeio> Would a breadboard do for most circuitry, or would it be best to get a proper stripboard?
[16:13] <manterolat> Breadboard is good for testing, but stripboard/circuitboard is more reliable for connections
[16:14] <adamgreig> don't fly breadboard
[16:14] <arjunnaha> Get a PCB made
[16:14] <arjunnaha> for the flight
[16:15] <arjunnaha> There are a fair few manufacturers that will do low quantity orders
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[16:19] <jakeio> OK. Also, regarding getting some cheap cable for connecting microcontroller to other radio and such, will this suffice? http://uk.farnell.com/alpha-wire/6717-bk005/wire-30-5m-41x30awg-tc-black/dp/1764977
[16:20] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HMcZiWxX7o
[16:21] <daey> im watching a gnuradio tutorial. the video uses a "Signal Source" but it only has an output. mine also has an input, which apparently expects a frequency
[16:22] <daey> am i doing something wrong, or did the Signal Source block was changed a while ago?
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[16:23] <kc2pit> In my experience with gnuradio, every time someone gets *anything* to work and tells the world how, that functionality gets changed to keep everything impenetrably broken as it was intended to be.
[16:23] <miek> daey: it changed, but that input is optional
[16:23] <daey> you dont sound like you like gnuradio :p
[16:23] <miek> you can ignore it
[16:24] <kc2pit> Yeah, I'm not gnuradio's biggest fan. It sounded awesome until I tried to use it.
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[16:40] <jakeio> edmoore: Regarding wire for connecting radio to microcontroller and such, do you have any recommendations?
[16:43] <jakeio> Would such things as this suffice? http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/mc6a-7-0-2t2-bk-100/equipment-wire-0-22mm22-black/dp/1219323
[16:44] <manterolat> Most copper wire should be fine, though solid wire could become brittle due to cold
[16:44] <jakeio> OK, the one I sent is stranded so should be fine?
[16:46] <manterolat> Yeah, but honestly most stranded wire should suffice. If you have any around use that
[16:47] <manterolat> You don't really need an expensive/special wire
[16:48] <jakeio> Well, I don't, as this is my first proper electronics project. I'll just fine any old cheap stranded copper wire.
[16:48] <jakeio> Thanks manterolat!
[16:49] <manterolat> No problem! I'm planning on using regular breadboard wire to connect a sensor module (it has to go on the outside of the capsule) even if not the best...
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[17:10] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:46] <edmoore> jakeio: the above suggestions are good but instead of wire i might recommend veroboard
[17:46] <edmoore> that way you can solder everything to one single easy-to-mechicanically-mount thing
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[17:46] <edmoore> and that will stop any flexing and movement which over time leads to failure through metal fatigue and so on
[17:47] <edmoore> however my day job involves some serious nerdary about how to do aerospace cables and connections for fairly harsh environments so do keep asking me if you have a specific cable/connector application in mind and i'll see if I can help
[17:47] <edmoore> manterolat: don't use breadboard in flight
[17:48] <edmoore> stuff pops out always
[17:49] <jakeio> edmoore: Thanks! What about connecting the microcontroller to the veroboard, surely a little bit of cable is needed for that?
[17:50] <edmoore> nope
[17:50] <edmoore> you can put it on
[17:50] <edmoore> well it depends which microcontroller
[17:50] <edmoore> which are you planning to use?
[17:51] <jakeio> I'm using a Pi Zero...
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[17:53] <jakeio> Actually, yeah, I can see how that would work. Solder the Pi on its side onto the veroboard.
[17:53] <jakeio> That'd be fine.
[17:53] <edmoore> yep
[17:53] <edmoore> or just get a ribbon cable and solder an identical header to the veroboard
[17:53] <edmoore> and ribbon between the two
[17:53] <edmoore> that way you could swap between any model pi
[17:53] <edmoore> say if you wanted ethernet for development
[17:55] <jakeio> True, well, I'd also like to buy a small amount of wire from element14 just to have some lying around (just in case!) so I'll get some cheap copper stranded.
[17:55] <edmoore> ok
[17:55] <edmoore> get awg22 guage wire
[17:55] <jakeio> Thanks!
[17:55] <edmoore> that's a good general purpose hookup-wire size
[17:56] <edmoore> red and black are two useful colours to have
[17:56] <edmoore> for power and gnd
[17:56] <edmoore> and maybe a third colour for signals
[17:56] <edmoore> just helps you debug in 3 months when you forget what was in your head at the time
[17:56] <jakeio> Haha, I can imagine...
[17:57] <jakeio> Is this what you meant? http://uk.farnell.com/alpha-wire/6715-bk005/wire-30-5m-16-0-255mm-copper-black/dp/1764953
[17:57] <edmoore> so see on the description when it says 18awg
[17:57] <jakeio> Oh.
[17:58] <jakeio> Sorry, not familiar with the term awg, is that something like American Wire Gauge?
[17:58] <jakeio> I remember reading it somewhere...
[17:58] <jakeio> http://uk.farnell.com/alpha-wire/6713-bk001/wire-eco-22awg-black-304-8m/dp/1770297
[17:58] <jakeio> There.
[17:58] <jakeio> 22AWG.
[17:59] <jakeio> Thanks again edmoore
[18:00] <edmoore> yep american wire guage
[18:00] <edmoore> and yep
[18:00] <edmoore> that stuff
[18:00] <edmoore> the smaller the number the bigger the corss-sectional area
[18:01] <jakeio> Ah, I see, so greater current capacity.
[18:02] <edmoore> yep
[18:02] <edmoore> but at the cost of not fitting into many connectors/holes/crimps
[18:02] <edmoore> you can just look up a table for current capacity vs size if you need to know
[18:03] <jakeio> OK, thanks!
[18:04] <edmoore> our neighbour in france is a bit eccentric, and one of his hobbies is collecting old fighter jets, of which he has the largest collection in france
[18:04] <edmoore> this is the view from my bedroom window, of maybe 1/3rd of his collection http://edmoore.io/images/jets.jpg
[18:05] <jakeio> That's a really odd hobby...
[18:05] <jakeio> Does he fly them?
[18:05] <jakeio> From their condition, they don't look air-worthy.
[18:06] <jakeio> No... One has no wings...
[18:07] <fsphil> hah, that's great
[18:07] <fsphil> has he let you sit in them? :)
[18:07] <edmoore> no he doesn't
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> That's not a collection of old fighter jets, that's clearly a mirage.
[18:07] <edmoore> i'm not sure one can get a suitable license to fly an f16 as a civilian
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: you can
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: at least in the US
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> err
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> Limited research indicates first comment is probably wrong at least for the UK and US
[18:12] <jakeio> edmoore: Just checking (I promise I'll go away after this) will this wire suffice for making the antenna (UKHAS wiki says 1/0.6mm wire). http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/mc6a-1-0-6t2-gy-100/equipment-wire-1-0-6mm-grey-100m/dp/1219345
[18:12] <russss> I think you can in the UK if you have enough cash, but that's quite a significant amount.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> russss: I suspect it's one of those 'in principle the rules allow it' things.
[18:13] <edmoore> jakeio: it'll be fine, or the 22awg you just linked to previously
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> But in practice, you will be talking to the CAA until you die.
[18:13] <edmoore> the thickness really doesn't matter for the antenna
[18:13] <jakeio> edmoore: Oh, thanks. And, now, I shall leave you alone!
[18:14] <edmoore> it's fine
[18:14] <edmoore> learning questions are why we have this channel
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> russss: same as in the US - nobodies actually said it's flat out illegal, but the fact nobodies done it is a big indicator
[18:14] <edmoore> if i'm busy i just won't answer
[18:14] <russss> apparently in the US there are some private pilots with F-104s which they fly.
[18:14] <russss> as with any aviation it's a lot cheaper in the US
[18:14] <russss> there are definitely private pilots who fly old prop warplanes in the US
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> f16 is 20 years younger
[18:16] <edmoore> i know quite a few prop warplane pilots in the uk
[18:16] <edmoore> especially ww2 aircraft
[18:16] <edmoore> a local guy restored a hurricane, and i still remember seeing the merlin light up for the first time as quite an important and visceral mechanical experience
[18:17] <russss> with jet aircraft I think the impediment is primarily monetary
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> All the excitement of a sports-car, and more, with an extra four digits on the garage bills.
[18:17] <russss> or at least "you're going to need this significant amount of money to establish a maintenance regime good enough to maintain airworthiness"
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> russss: with the added fun that tehre may be nobody willing and able to do the required certification/work in the UK
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> when we chased the balloon, we saw a similar museum of jets and helicopters from the highway, was impressive
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[18:21] <manterolat> edmoore: Yeah, the breadboard was used only once as it was the only alternative available at the moment. Just made a few PCB's however, so that shouldn't be a problem
[18:22] <edmoore> ah super
[18:22] <edmoore> yep you're laughing
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[18:29] <jakeio> edmoore: what wire am I likely to use when making my Yagi antenna (receiving).
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[18:30] <jakeio> The UKHAS guide suggests 12 AWG.
[18:32] <edmoore> for a yagi?
[18:32] <edmoore> hmm
[18:32] <edmoore> link?
[18:33] <jakeio> http://widerimage.co.uk/docs/Mountain_Yagi_434_4Element.pdf
[18:33] <jakeio> Well, I'm not sure it suggests, it just states that 12AWG was used.
[18:33] <russss> coathangers.
[18:33] <edmoore> something solid rather than wire, as russ says
[18:34] <jakeio> I was expecting someone to say that russss
[18:34] <jakeio> OK, thanks.
[18:34] <edmoore> don't worry about the specific guage, think or it as a mechanical project rather than an electronics project
[18:34] <edmoore> some people use tape measures cut up
[18:34] <edmoore> so it can go in a poster tube
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Aluminium coathangers are somewhat better than steel
[18:34] <edmoore> but spring out when needed
[18:34] <russss> oh yeah, the tape measures are good.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> but it mostly doesn't matter very much
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> I've used cardboard + foil before
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[18:35] <SpeedEvil> which worked well
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[18:37] <edmoore> you could use piano wire too
[18:41] <jakeio> Oh, yes, what cable will I be using from Yagi to my SMA on the FunCube dongle I've got?
[18:41] <jakeio> I'm a couple of pounds off of free delivery from Farnell element14. It'd be cheaper to get an extra thing than pay the postage cost...
[18:42] <edmoore> rg174 is a good general purpose coaxiable cable
[18:42] <edmoore> you could also buy a pre-made cable with the right connectors on each end
[18:42] <edmoore> farnell will sell you both
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[18:43] <jakeio> edmoore: could I get a link to that? I can't find it on their website.
[18:45] <edmoore> for the former, e.g. http://uk.farnell.com/alpha-wire/9174-bk005/cable-coax-30-5m-black-rg174-u/dp/1302764
[18:45] <edmoore> for the latter, well give me a length and what flavour of connector you want at each end
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[18:47] <jakeio> Right. Well, I'll need an SMA on one end, I'm unsure what I'll use to "connect" to my antenna... I'll either build a Yagi antenna or a helical antenna.
[18:48] <edmoore> yagi is easier probably
[18:48] <edmoore> you can put what you like on
[18:48] <edmoore> i'd suggest a BNC or an N connector
[18:48] <edmoore> so the three types of rf connector you probably want to use are:
[18:48] <edmoore> SMA
[18:48] <edmoore> BNC
[18:48] <edmoore> N
[18:49] <edmoore> there are others, they are either niche or just shit
[18:49] <edmoore> so best ignored unless you definitely know you want them
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[18:49] <jakeio> Right. "To google!"
[18:49] <edmoore> SMA is small, convenient but not great for high powers
[18:50] <edmoore> BNC is used everywhere eg on oscilloscopes and all sorts, they don't usually go to as high freqs as sma (low Ghz) but still plenty high enough for HAB
[18:50] <edmoore> N is like a really big SMA
[18:50] <edmoore> good for high powers
[18:50] <edmoore> mechanically strong
[18:50] <jakeio> Can I not integrate the cable directly into my antenna and just have an SMA on one end? Or am I missing something.
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[18:51] <edmoore> you can yes
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[18:51] <jakeio> OK, I shall order one with just SMA on one end then, as the FunCube has a female SMA.
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[18:52] <edmoore> you just might find that 'often', for convenience rather than any hard scientific/enginenering reason, stuff comes just with connectors, and you supply the intermediate cable depending on wehther it needs to be 1m long or 20m to go up a mast or whatever
[18:52] <jakeio> Right.
[18:53] <edmoore> an asside:
[18:54] <edmoore> in hab, a large number of errors people experience are because of slightly dodgy cables/connectors that cause intermittent faults
[18:54] <edmoore> these are because there is usually one right way to mount a connector and 1000 wrong ways
[18:54] <jakeio> Oh. Delightful - I'm sure I'll find that a lovely minefield! I'm struggling to find a RG174 with a SMA on one end. Except for things like this: http://uk.farnell.com/lprs/rg174-300mm/cable-rg174-300mm/dp/2096226
[18:54] <edmoore> there problems are totally, totally avoidable if you take the time and care to put a connector on the official Righ Way
[18:54] <edmoore> if in doubt, ask me
[18:55] <jakeio> I absolutely will.
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[18:55] <edmoore> sometimes it might involve buying the right crimp tool which can be expensive, but often there is a solderable version and a crimp version so buy the solder version if you want to avoid paying for a crimp tool
[18:56] <russss> jakeio: also make sure you don't end up with an RP-SMA, which is a different connector which is used in wifi.
[18:56] <edmoore> but yes, just taking care to use and make good quality connectors and cables will eliminate a whole class of annoying bugs in one swoop
[18:56] <edmoore> oh yes that too :)
[18:57] <russss> I remember this because I picked up my post today and the cable I ordered is unfortunately RP-SMA. So that's going in the drawer.
[18:57] <jakeio> Haha, never to be seen again?
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[18:59] <jakeio> So, edmoore, when buying coaxial cable, is it best that I go for cable that has nothing on the ends and solder/crimp the connectors on myself?
[18:59] <jakeio> Or to buy them pre-connected?
[18:59] <edmoore> if you can get someone of the right length that'll save you faff
[18:59] <edmoore> definitely
[19:00] <edmoore> especially if you just want sort of 1m or 3m lengths, of the sort you might want to have in an electronics lab
[19:00] <edmoore> there are tonnes of options avilable
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[19:00] <jakeio> Right, I'll probably get a 3m length of coaxial cable with a SMA on one end. Now to see if farnell stock that...
[19:00] <russss> some of the SMA solder connectors are near-impossible to solder. I have no idea how they work.
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[19:05] <criticalmass> Hi all
[19:05] <jakeio> edmoore: Am I looking for Coaxial cable assemblies?
[19:05] <criticalmass> I'm a few steps closer to having a working tracker.
[19:05] <Vaizki> jakelo, or get a cable with SMA on both ends and split it...
[19:06] <Vaizki> jakeio sorry :)
[19:06] <criticalmass> I'm transmitting a valid RTTY signal, but my gps card doesn't seem to be giving any data.
[19:06] <jakeio> Haha! Thanks.
[19:06] <edmoore> jakeio: sounds warm
[19:06] <jakeio> Haha!
[19:06] <jakeio> Thanks.
[19:07] <jakeio> edmoore: http://uk.farnell.com/amphenol-cables-on-demand/co-174smax200-010/rf-cable-assembly-sma-str-plug/dp/2530035?aa=true&ost=Coaxial+cable&selectedCategoryId=&categoryId=700000006039
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[19:08] <adamgreig> anyone want a fluke 289 for <£200 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLUKE-289-TRUE-RMS-INDUSTRIAL-LOGGING-MULTIMETER-WITH-LEADS-CASE/351683620931
[19:08] <jakeio> edmoore: or this: http://uk.farnell.com/amphenol-cables-on-demand/co-174smax200-007/rf-cable-assembly-sma-str-plug/dp/2530034?aa=true&ost=Coaxial+cable&selectedCategoryId=&categoryId=700000006039
[19:08] <jakeio> Do they seem about right?
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[19:09] <edmoore> jakeio: yes, tho note they're both US stock
[19:09] <edmoore> awaiting delivery
[19:09] <jakeio> Oh dear. Well, that's inconveinent.
[19:09] <jakeio> I can spell inconvenint
[19:09] <edmoore> in the farnell filters think on the left i tend to click 'in stock' and 'exclude US stock'
[19:10] <jakeio> I still can't spell it!
[19:10] <jakeio> inconvenient!
[19:10] <jakeio> There.
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[19:10] <jakeio> Then there's this: http://uk.farnell.com/huber-suhner/tl8a-11sma-11sma-03000-51/rf-coaxial-sma-straight-plug-3m/dp/2506757?aa=true&ost=Coaxial+cable&selectedCategoryId=&categoryId=700000006039
[19:11] <jakeio> Nope. That's wrong.
[19:11] <edmoore> russss: http://uk.farnell.com/huber-suhner/11-sma-50-3-15-111ne/rf-coaxial-sma-straight-plug-50ohm/dp/4163114
[19:11] <edmoore> for example
[19:11] <edmoore> huber+suhner are the rolls-royce of rf connectors
[19:12] <Vaizki> mmmm
[19:12] <edmoore> everything they make is to a very high standard, and their application notes are very good for info on how to assemble
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[19:13] <jakeio> Wait, so this will suffice? http://uk.farnell.com/huber-suhner/tl8a-11sma-11sma-03000-51/rf-coaxial-sma-straight-plug-3m/dp/2506757?aa=true&ost=Coaxial+cable&selectedCategoryId=&categoryId=700000006039
[19:13] <jakeio> No it won't.
[19:13] <jakeio> It's £90.
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[19:13] <jakeio> Haha...
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[19:13] <edmoore> jakeio: that sort of thing is for your special electronics lab
[19:14] <edmoore> doing careful experiments
[19:14] <edmoore> not for throwing in the boot of your car :)
[19:14] <edmoore> i'll find you something one sec
[19:14] <edmoore> so like 3m alright?
[19:14] <Vaizki> I like bnc for throwing in the boot
[19:14] <edmoore> with SMA?
[19:14] <edmoore> yeah BNC is good
[19:14] <edmoore> infact i should say
[19:14] <edmoore> most people have BNC-BNC cables
[19:15] <edmoore> and use adaptors on the end to convert them as necessary
[19:15] <edmoore> you might want to consider that
[19:15] <Vaizki> and adapters...
[19:15] <edmoore> RS's own brand range of adaptors are very good for the money
[19:15] <edmoore> Radiall are a step above that
[19:15] <edmoore> and then above that again you're into huber+suhner territory
[19:15] <Vaizki> especially if you work with <1GHz mostly
[19:16] <edmoore> yeah, the RS ones would be just the ticket for hab
[19:17] <edmoore> this sort of thing http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rf-coaxial-adapters/7619985/
[19:17] <edmoore> this is the sort of price jump for going to radiall which i wouldn;t consider for hab but would consider for a home electronics lab where you had an interest in microwave work http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rf-coaxial-adapters/2957172/
[19:18] <russss> most of my adaptors and cables are AliExpress's finest.
[19:18] <edmoore> :)
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[19:19] <jakeio> Thanks again. I was, however, trying to find it on farnell, because I'm a few £ under the £20 limit for free delivery, and if I am charged delivery, it goes above the £20 limit anyway, so an trying to find the coaxial cable from farnell. I see that's not happening though.
[19:19] <Vaizki> I have some rf supplier, shining, radiall, etc etc
[19:19] <edmoore> for <1GHz it really doesn't matter much
[19:19] <edmoore> but for example i've done some work at 8ghz where just rotating the outer barrel on the end of an unconnected sma cable would make the SWR graph dance around all over the place at high freqs
[19:20] <russss> I thought Farnell got rid of that £20 limit.
[19:20] <russss> they're so confusing sometimes.
[19:20] <edmoore> maybe only for account holders?
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[19:20] <edmoore> jakeio: p.s. you're doing well with this sort of brain dump of stuff
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[19:21] <edmoore> don't be too put off it if all seems like a tidal wave of New
[19:21] <edmoore> it sorts itself out in the end
[19:21] <russss> edmoore: I swear they keep changing it.
[19:21] <jakeio> No, no! I'm genuinely loving it!
[19:21] <jakeio> This is really interesting.
[19:22] <edmoore> it is, yep
[19:22] <edmoore> well, good
[19:22] <russss> yes. I'm not going mad. They did get rid of the <£20 delivery charge for all customers and now they've brought it back. http://web.archive.org/web/20150926021258/http://uk.farnell.com/help-delivery-information?
[19:24] <fsphil> aww
[19:24] <fsphil> that was handy
[19:24] <edmoore> http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/spc20630/cable-rg58-sma-plug-sma-plug-72in/dp/2293863
[19:25] <edmoore> jakeio:
[19:25] <edmoore> that's SMA-SMA
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[19:25] <edmoore> if you just want SMA on one end and the other direct to the yagi, might be cheaper to buy an SMA and a roll of rg174 and make it yourself
[19:28] <jakeio> OK, I may as well do this.
[19:28] <edmoore> you can also use the rg174 on the balloon payload
[19:28] <edmoore> to route from the ntx2b to the antenna
[19:29] <edmoore> it's a useful thing to have a roll of
[19:30] <jakeio> Certainly don't need a roll of length 30m!
[19:33] <jakeio> Is this the correct connector? http://uk.farnell.com/lprs/sma-connector/connector-sma-antenna/dp/2096223?ost=Sma+connector&selectedCategoryId=&categoryName=All+Categories&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories
[19:33] <edmoore> no
[19:33] <edmoore> look at the description at the bottom
[19:33] <edmoore> it says 'pcb mount'
[19:34] <edmoore> so it's for soldering onto circuit boards
[19:34] <edmoore> you want one that you can attach to the end of a cable
[19:34] <jakeio> Ah. OK. Thanks. Sorry to continue asking stuff.
[19:35] <edmoore> no problem
[19:36] <edmoore> i'll find you something suitable one sec
[19:37] <jakeio> There's no need really! I'm probably sorted now.
[19:37] <edmoore> http://uk.farnell.com/huber-suhner/11-sma-50-2-5-111nh/rf-coaxial-sma-straight-plug-50ohm/dp/4163072?aa=true&selectedCategoryId=&categoryId=700000005024
[19:38] <edmoore> that will do it
[19:38] <edmoore> so on the 'RF Connectors' section of farnell i selected the following filters:
[19:38] <edmoore> Type:SMA
[19:38] <jakeio> Thanks again edmoore! I'll now go hunting for a shorter length of Coaxial cable from another supplier. I'll log off now so I can't pester you!!
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[19:38] <edmoore> Coaxial Cable Type: RG174 (and others). That matters because the outer bit has to know what thickness of cable to grip on to
[19:39] <edmoore> and that's huber+suhner because they're the best but feel free to look at other manufacturers
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[19:52] <jakeio> edmoore: one last thing, will this wire http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/hookup-equipment-wire/1771078/ suffice for both the antenna ground plate and for bits and bobs in circuitry?
[19:52] <jakeio> And, will this coaxial cable do: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/5260308/
[19:52] <jakeio> Then I really will go! :D
[19:53] <edmoore> 1) yes. 2) yes, provided you think 1m is long enough for waving a yagi around
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[19:54] <jakeio> I think it should be OK......
[19:54] <jakeio> 1) Just realised that's 30m long... Might find a shorter one!
[19:56] <jakeio> Will 1m really not be long enough edmoore ?
[19:56] <edmoore> well how will you use a yagi?
[19:56] <edmoore> up to you
[19:57] <edmoore> do you want the radio on the car dashboard and you standing out of the sunroof pointing the yagi? if so that might be more like 2-3m
[19:58] <edmoore> if the yagi will be on a tripod next to the desk with the radio then 1m might be enough
[19:59] <jakeio> Well, I was going for yagi out of window of chase car or out of windscreen.
[19:59] <edmoore> 1m might not be enough id say
[20:00] <jakeio> And damnit, RS don't have any equipment wire that's not 30m or 150mm.
[20:00] <edmoore> i'd want more like 3
[20:00] <edmoore> 30m is fine
[20:00] <edmoore> you'll geth through it
[20:00] <jakeio> 30m is too expensive!
[20:00] <jakeio> I'm unlikely to use much of it at all.
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[20:01] <jakeio> Do I absolutely have to use 22AWG?
[20:02] <edmoore> no
[20:02] <edmoore> 24 would probably be ok too
[20:02] <edmoore> 26 is started to get a bit small
[20:02] <jakeio> OK, and would 20 suffice?
[20:03] <edmoore> yesish
[20:03] <edmoore> so many pcb wire-to-board connectors have crimps which assume 22-24awg
[20:05] <edmoore> like the normal molex connectors you see everywhere
[20:05] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0bs65qbdual1m47/motordriver.jpg?dl=0
[20:05] <edmoore> the white ones
[20:05] <edmoore> they assume 22-24awg wires on the cables that mate to those white connectors
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[20:28] <jakeio> Just to be sure, 23AWG will do fine? I've found 25m of 23AWG for an acceptable price. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/hookup-equipment-wire/2201334/
[20:29] <jakeio> Oh no, min order 25 units.
[20:35] <criticalmass> I think I might be going a bit mad. I've been working on my Arduino tracker all evening and I cannot get the GPS receiver to output any valid data.
[20:35] <fsphil> yep, mad. this isn't even a computer you're typing on now
[20:36] <criticalmass> Any ideas how long it takes UPUs uBlox card to get a valid fix?
[20:36] <fsphil> are you getting anything from it?
[20:36] <criticalmass> Yeah, cheers fsphil
[20:36] <criticalmass> 😄
[20:37] <fsphil> depending on the environment, it's usually got a lock within a few minutes. rarely longer than 5 unless the signal is very weak/distorted where you are
[20:38] <criticalmass> I didn't write the sketch, but I'm told it works well by the designer. My RTTY output is now transmitting well, but the GPS data is all invalid.
[20:38] <fsphil> invalid how?
[20:38] <criticalmass> Hang on...
[20:40] <criticalmass> Sorry, shopping this on my phone so takes a bit longer.
[20:41] <criticalmass> Decoded RTTY looks like this :
[20:41] <criticalmass> $$DARWIN,0,198:96:72,99.99999,99.99999,0,99,99.99,88.88,9999,7.19,C3p0119*BF38
[20:41] <criticalmass> $$DARWIN,0,24:59:58,9999.99999,-8888.88888,0,0,99.99,88.88,9999,9.99,82pFFFF*4201
[20:41] <fsphil> that's new
[20:42] <criticalmass> That doesn't sound promising.
[20:43] <fsphil> you need to find out what the gps is sending
[20:43] <criticalmass> Agreed. Just don't know how to do that.
[20:44] <manterolat> How is the GPS connected to the Arduino?
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[20:47] <criticalmass> I2c
[20:49] <fsphil> tried a simple program to grab data from the gps and write it to the serial prot?
[20:49] <fsphil> port too
[20:49] <manterolat> Is the Arduino connected to the computer through serial?
[20:49] <criticalmass> Ok, I'll look into it. I'm using the uBLOX MAX-M8C
[20:49] <fsphil> the USB connection gives you a serial connection
[20:49] <fsphil> virtual serial port
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[20:50] <manterolat> Just unsure if he was using radio as the only source of info
[20:50] <criticalmass> I have TX/rx breakouts for programming the chip, can I use that?
[20:51] <manterolat> What Arduino board is this?
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[20:51] <criticalmass> It's a custom pcb
[20:51] <fsphil> nice
[20:52] <criticalmass> I followed an instructable:
[20:52] <fsphil> yeah you can use that for your serial output
[20:52] <criticalmass> http://m.instructables.com/id/Make-a-High-Altitude-Balloon-Tracker-Arduino/
[20:53] <criticalmass> What I've done is jump into a project with no programming experience. Having built it, I'm having teathing problems and have no idea how to fix them 😄😄
[20:55] <manterolat> How did you program the Arduino? Using a USB to Serial adapter?
[20:56] <criticalmass> Yep. Bought a 323 with an 8mhz bootloader pre loaded
[20:57] <manterolat> Nice
[20:57] <manterolat> Well, you could try uploading a new program that repeats the data from I2C to Serial
[20:57] <criticalmass> Tried to do it with minimal work on my part, but suffering now.
[20:57] <criticalmass> Then use a terminal to read the data?
[20:58] <manterolat> Yeah
[20:58] <criticalmass> Good thinking.
[20:58] <manterolat> Opening the Serial Monitor in the Arduino IDE
[20:58] <criticalmass> Yep, ok.
[20:59] <manterolat> I assume you're using code derived from the one attached in the instructable?
[20:59] <criticalmass> I'll look into that tomorrow I think. I'm worried that my upu breakout might be fried. At least I'll get some reassurance
[20:59] <criticalmass> Yes
[21:00] <criticalmass> Code and v1.1 of the board design.
[21:00] <manterolat> Well, we can try more things tomorrow if you want
[21:00] <criticalmass> The designer has been more than helpful.
[21:01] <manterolat> I bet, there's a lot of stuff to digest in the beggining
[21:01] <criticalmass> Amazing, thank you. I'll look at viewing the I2c tomorrow.
[21:01] <criticalmass> Yes. Yes there is.
[21:01] <criticalmass> Thanks for your help.
[21:01] <manterolat> No problem, good luck!
[21:02] <criticalmass> Cheers
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[21:20] <arjunnaha> For a payload antenna, would this wire do? http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-solid-core-wire-1-06mm-red-10m-bl92a
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[21:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> It would work, but one knock during takeoff and its bent out of shape. Several people on here have used a guitar string can't remember they type but I'm sure Upu or one of the others can advise!
[21:31] <arjunnaha> ping Upu
[21:32] <stilldavid> piano wire!
[21:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Pokes pepoles eyes out
[21:32] <stilldavid> even the thinner stuff?
[21:33] <stilldavid> or is that especially bad... depending on length I use that thinner wire in a soda straw
[21:33] <Upu> Ernie Ball Custom Gauge 13 I think
[21:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Straws help with flexible wire, but the guitar string is solderable and flexible, its a particular make and size.
[21:34] <stilldavid> nice, I'll look into that as well.
[21:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Google isn't finding it at present
[21:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Here it is http://www.soundsliveshop.com/p/Ernie_Ball_1013_0.13_6-Electric_Acoustic_String_Pack/EB-1013?CAWELAID=1830890099&CAGPSPN=pla&
[21:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Oh not found
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, that's the correct one
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ernie-Ball-Custom-Gauge-Guitar-Single-Strings-Electric-or-Acoustic-Pack-6-13-/360959212478
[21:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Yup that's it
[21:40] <arjunnaha> has anyone used this exact model before?
[21:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> http://projecthab.co.uk/2013/10/19/payload-ready/
[21:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Oh and Leo used them on his flights
[21:44] <arjunnaha> haha, just wanted some assurance
[21:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Leo's went 10 times round the world can't get batter than that!
[21:44] <fsphil> 11 times?
[21:44] <Vaizki> 11 times is better?
[21:44] <fsphil> :p
[21:44] <Vaizki> sync
[21:45] <Vaizki> then again.. it might still be up there.. just not sending any more!
[21:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> I lost track http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/B-64_20140712/B-64-all.jpg
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> arjunnaha, we also used it on Feb. 12
[21:46] <Vaizki> Geoff-G8DHE-lapt: what is "FAI cap"?
[21:47] <arjunnaha> How long is just one of the strings?
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> 17 cm ca.
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> Vaizki, 60° N I think
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> for a RTW flight you need to stay south of that
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> I guess to have a minimal distance you have to cover
[21:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Its the FAI rules about circumnavigation flights you draw two "caps" on the earth to ensure you don't just float around a pole etc!
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:48] <Vaizki> hmpf my whole country is inside it!
[21:48] <fsphil> it doesn't have to be centered on the pole
[21:49] <Vaizki> yea I get it ;)
[21:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> You can draw them any where you like its just to stop you circling a point
[21:49] <fsphil> you could always move to a warmer country too :p
[21:51] <arjunnaha> Lunar_Lander, the antenna guide on the wiki uses longer wire and twists them together, how can I join the string together with the pigtail?
[21:51] <Vaizki> solder
[21:52] <Upu> arjunnaha why not just make the antenna out of the pig tail like demostrated on the wiki ?
[21:52] <Upu> !wiki payload antenna
[21:52] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Wiki page 03payload_antenna (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[21:52] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Wiki page 03projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi?s[]=payload&amp;s[]=antenna
[21:52] <arjunnaha> the single core wire needed is 2x 35mm, the guitar string is 17cm ca.
[21:53] <Vaizki> no guitar strings are much longer than 17cm :)
[21:53] <Vaizki> more like 80cm
[21:54] <Upu> err
[21:54] <Upu> 2 x 35mm ?
[21:54] <arjunnaha> Cut two lengths of single core wire about 350mm long.
[21:54] <arjunnaha> *350mm
[21:54] <Upu> oh ok
[21:54] <arjunnaha> hehe
[21:54] <Upu> just make it from the pig tailk
[21:55] <arjunnaha> and?
[21:55] <Upu> guitar string is a little on the spikey side
[21:55] <Upu> some single core wire
[21:55] <arjunnaha> would it make a difference?
[21:56] <Upu> what being spikey ? Err its safer not being spikey
[21:56] <arjunnaha> about performance
[21:56] <daveake> If you have coax anyway, don't solder something to the end (solder joint might break), just use the coax centre wire as the aerial
[21:57] <daveake> It's flexible so put a straw round it to keep it straight
[21:57] <Upu> as long as you make it correctly both should exhibit the same performance
[21:58] <arjunnaha> No radials?
[21:58] <Upu> no you need radials
[21:58] <daveake> Yes, solder those to the shield
[21:58] <Upu> the pig tail one is slightly more flexible and easier to make
[21:58] <arjunnaha> I'm going to follow the wiki, Maplin is selling stranded solid core wire, does it need to be single core?
[21:58] <Upu> the guitar string one is very rigid but you have to connect it to your coax
[21:58] <Upu> just wire
[21:59] <daveake> Electrically, it makes next to no difference what wire you use
[21:59] <Upu> heck you could probably make the radials with tin foil on straws
[22:00] <arjunnaha> and practically?
[22:00] <fsphil> or untwisted the shield. but that takes a while...
[22:00] <daveake> I don't have the patience for that
[22:00] <fsphil> yeah I don't anymore :)
[22:01] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/5431825038_b623e5ca8e_o.jpg
[22:01] <Upu> I believe fsphil coined it the "shaggy"
[22:01] <Upu> but you need to patience of a saint to make it
[22:01] <Upu> Shaggi ?
[22:01] <fsphil> yeah
[22:01] <fsphil> shagi
[22:02] <daveake> Yeah, someone called it the shaggy. Wasn't me.
[22:02] <fsphil> I do something similar, but only untwist about 2cm of the shield now
[22:02] <fsphil> then solder the radials to that
[22:03] <mfa298> I think thats easier to do on the larger coaxes, although still a pain.
[22:03] <fsphil> probably should use thinner coax too
[22:03] <fsphil> that's rg56 (?) in the picture
[22:03] <fsphil> or rg58, I never remember
[22:04] <mfa298> rg58 is the common one (Good ol' 10Base2)
[22:04] <fsphil> other side was crimped with an sma socket, so I could build the antenna into the box and still remove the payload
[22:04] <daveake> Lately I've put an SMA socket on the bottom of the payload, and made aerials like this https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cb5rmBtW8AASo6X.jpg:large
[22:04] <fsphil> sma plug*
[22:05] <fsphil> hah cute
[22:05] <Vaizki> hehe
[22:05] <fsphil> 869?
[22:05] <daveake> yes
[22:07] <daveake> Makes the payload a lot more manageable if it doesn't have wires poking out everywhere
[22:07] <daveake> Of course, it also introduces a new failure mode :p
[22:08] <fsphil> there needs to be a mini-BNC
[22:08] <fsphil> SMA sized with a lock
[22:08] <fsphil> and of course there is
[22:09] <daveake> I was thinking less "SMA unscrews during flight", and more "Oops, forgot to add the aerial"
[22:10] <daveake> There are probably more types of radio connector than total HAB flights ever
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[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[23:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03Legionowo after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Legionowo
[23:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[00:00] --- Tue Mar 29 2016