highaltitude.log.20160323

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[00:23] <amell> the lora board at uputronics - if you have both modules installed, can it use the same antenna?
[00:23] <amell> im a little unclear as to whether the antennas are common
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[00:30] <fsphil> each module has its own separate antenna port
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[01:23] <amell> fsphil: i have one X-50 - how would i connect both modules to same antenna?
[01:23] <amell> cant find a 2 to 1 adaptor.
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[01:42] <mfa298> for rx only you can get T adapters although theres some loss in splitting the cable (3dB in theory from memory)
[01:43] <mfa298> but you need to be careful not to have anything transmit or you could blow the frontends on the other connected modules
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[06:44] <Vaizki> morning
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[07:02] <Vaizki> Re: amell's antenni sharing, of course you can buy a duplexer to share an antenna but the X50 is not a good choice for 868MHz
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[07:19] <SM0ULC-Reb> morrn
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[08:47] <R34lB0rg> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGJgKSb7dX_LQhLOu_z_HQQEEpSuTscytyL-94Zeq7k/pubhtml
[08:48] <R34lB0rg> does this look correct? using data from international standard atmosphere
[08:49] <pb0ahx> !flights
[08:49] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03Pecan SSDV Tracker 10(5ab8), 03UBSEDS14 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(39cd), 03BARC 10(c8db), 03Barc3 10(ed9e), 03PITS 868 10(95ae), 03BARC 10(8d7c)
[08:52] <pb0ahx> !dial 39cd
[08:52] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Latest dials for 03UBSEDS14 10(39cd): 035 MHz
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[09:09] <R34lB0rg> where is the lifting gas / ascent rate calculator?
[09:10] <edmoore> in the predictor
[09:10] <edmoore> there's a little hyperlink in the box where you enter parameters
[09:11] <fsphil> there used to be a separate one too
[09:11] <fsphil> ah, still there: http://habhub.org/calc/
[09:13] <R34lB0rg> thanks
[09:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm both PITS434 and BARC appear to want to use 434.250 this morning at the same time.... maybe BARC will actually be on 434.45 however ???
[09:16] <daveake> yes they're on 450
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[09:20] <R34lB0rg> would you say 50m3 of lifting gas is a good estimate for BU60-1? 39.77kg 4.33m/s 53000m http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/special/2003/yamagami/03.shtml
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[09:24] <RocketBoy> hi folks - does anyone know what happened with the rishworth school flight a couple of weeks back - aparently NATS were re-routing air traffic around Nottingham?
[09:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> It was roumered but not confirmed when asked where the suggestion came from ?
[09:26] <RocketBoy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35824446
[09:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> There was nothing out of the ordinary with the flight at all
[09:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> "apparently" I think is the key word
[09:26] <RocketBoy> agreed - it looked like it was coming down a bit fast - but ive seen worse
[09:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> I think he said one of the boys "who was a pilot" told him
[09:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> ....
[09:28] <mfa298> I think after that he was going to clarify with whoever told him that and come back, but I'm not sure we heard anything since
[09:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2016_Flights/RISHTI_20160307/
[09:29] <AndyEsser> interesting.. BBC don't put rel="nofollow" on their links to external sites
[09:29] Action: AndyEsser makes plan to get a link to website on BBC
[09:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> from the irc log http://habhub.org/zeusbot/logs_highlighted/highaltitude.log.20160307.html at 21:00 onward
[09:31] <edmoore> RocketBoy: i recall not getting any kind of actual answer when it was questioned
[09:31] <edmoore> i think it just sounds nice
[09:31] <edmoore> a bit like when rob harrison had 'nasa' call him up to ask how he managed to take photos like that
[09:31] <edmoore> sort of bullshit but sounds good and perhaps said in a moment of over-enthusiasm
[09:32] <AndyEsser> nasa = not a space agency
[09:32] <edmoore> andyesser = tiresome
[09:32] <mfa298> otherwise that looks like a half decent write up, mentions of needing to get suitable authority and space count=0
[09:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> [23:41] <habby> Geoff-G8DHE - One of my sixth formers is a pilot - he told me.
[09:32] <RocketBoy> perhaps - but its not the sort of thing I want to see written about HAB in the press
[09:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Quite hence the questioning
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[09:33] <edmoore> that went down well obviously
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[10:06] <edmoore> RocketBoy: fwiw habby was also very keen on saying it went to space and broke the sound barrier
[10:08] <RocketBoy> thanks - Ive just got an email back fromone of the teachers involved - investigating&.
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[10:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BARC after 0318 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC
[10:28] <R34lB0rg> witness a weather balloon launch in austria: http://www.langenachtderforschung.at/index.php?option=com_jumi&fileid=21&Itemid=161&group_id=5300&page=stationen&filter=none
[10:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI868 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI868
[10:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI434 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI434
[10:58] <daveake> Launching in 5 mins
[10:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ready and waiting
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[11:03] <daveake> up
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[11:07] <daveake> nice image :/
[11:08] <fsphil> nice weather
[11:08] <edmoore> daveake: are you chasing?
[11:08] <fsphil> and blue sky
[11:08] <edmoore> or are you going to, I mean
[11:08] <daveake> yeah will chase
[11:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah ha clear of the cloud now
[11:09] <edmoore> cool
[11:09] <edmoore> just you're predicting to land on a customer of mine whom i might be visint this afternoon
[11:09] <daveake> hmm .. I could draw the altitude of clouds on the left of the overlay :)
[11:09] <daveake> ah nice
[11:11] <daveake> I've now started up the missing-packet bit
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> I wa going to say your missing a few!
[11:12] <daveake> also aerials on the ground ... just a mo
[11:12] <mfa298> looks like BARC launched about the same time as well
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[11:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> CRC failures on LORA but not above my horizon fully
[11:15] <fsphil> any radio changes this time daveake?
[11:15] <daveake> yeah I accidentally left it on 50 baud after a short test last time, so the sentences were still txing during the uplink
[11:24] Action: RocketBoy doesnt feel so bad about his LoRa sentence length c*ck up
[11:26] <daveake> :)
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[11:27] <daveake> hmmm just thought ... I should send the uplink message several times during the window - the message is short so I could probably fit a few in
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[11:29] <G0WXI> !dial PI434
[11:29] <SpacenearUS> 03G0WXI: Latest dials for 03PI434 10(95ae): 03434.25334 MHz
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[11:30] <NorthgateHigh> Good morning all
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[11:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> SWUS is startingto see telelmetry
[11:30] <NorthgateHigh> We are planning a balloon launch for next week
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[11:31] <NorthgateHigh> While we have the ability to track via GPS we were wondering if tracking via HabHub would be possible
[11:32] <NorthgateHigh> BRB
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[11:32] <mfa298> NorthgateHigh: when you say track via GPS do you mean a tracker that works by SMS or something else ?
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[11:45] <junderwood> !dial PI434
[11:45] <SpacenearUS> 03junderwood: Latest dials for 03PI434 10(95ae): 03434.253222 MHz
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[11:46] <michal_f_home> I'm looking at ssdv
[11:46] <michal_f_home> it takes 30 secs to send an image ?
[11:46] <daveake> depends on compression
[11:46] <fsphil> resolution and content too
[11:46] <michal_f_home> yeah, still fast
[11:46] <daveake> that's what I meant :)
[11:46] <PE1ANS> !dail Barc
[11:46] <fsphil> and data rate
[11:46] <michal_f_home> compared to RTTY
[11:46] <fsphil> it's quite variable :)
[11:47] <fsphil> I may have to rename it, it's not that slow these days
[11:47] <daveake> FSDV
[11:47] <daveake> Well medium for this; fast for David/Darkside's system
[11:47] <michal_f_home> taking average person expectations it's still slow :)
[11:48] <michal_f_home> I mean a persons that has nothing to do with ballons of course
[11:48] <daveake> ah decent pic at last
[11:48] <daveake> sure
[11:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah decoding
[11:50] <daveake> This particular lora transmitter is ~20kHz lower than my others, so probably worth knocking 20 off the setting in gateway.txt
[11:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup I let afc do the job
[11:50] <daveake> cool
[11:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Almost solid on 868 now
[11:53] <daveake> 26 uploads to far - that's more than twice what I managed last time for the entire flight
[11:53] <daveake> Nice Geoff-G8DHE
[11:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> What does the SSDV count show ? Bytes per image Rx ?
[11:55] <daveake> The bit that says something like "SSDV 2212" ?
[11:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes
[11:55] <daveake> No
[11:55] <daveake> :)
[11:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> ?
[11:56] <daveake> Packets get put into one of 4 buffers; that string shows the number in hex of packets in each buffer
[11:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah right
[11:56] <daveake> There are 4 upload threads trying to empty each of those
[11:56] <WillDWork> so is the overlay done server-side?
[11:56] <daveake> So if it's FFEF then your internet is even worse than mine :)
[11:57] <daveake> overlay is all done in the pi using imagemagick
[11:57] <daveake> (the tracker pi)
[11:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> No its never exceeded 2111 so far that I've seen :-)
[11:58] <daveake> Mine did last time with 3 gateways running. I killed one gateway then the others went down to 0-2 in each queue
[11:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> PI434 is weaker than normal
[11:58] <daveake> yeah the aerial is poking upwards
[11:58] <daveake> no ground plane
[11:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah so good signal for a few seconds on burst ;-)
[11:58] <daveake> It's basically trying to stay out of the way of the 868 aerial below
[11:58] <daveake> hah yes :)
[11:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Makes sense!
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[12:01] <pb0ahx> frequentie off BARC ??? some body can help
[12:02] <daveake> 434.450 I think
[12:05] <daveake> fsphil I'll do that multiple packet thing for next time - my internet isn't always coping just with the 2 gateways
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[12:06] <pb0ahx> tnx daveake u know also from pi1868 ??
[12:07] <Ron_G8FJG> Rx PI868 but with errors , not uploading, didnt get a chance to update gateway stuff
[12:07] <daveake> Payload ID PI868, LoRa, 869.850MHz, "Mode 3" in my gateway (250kHz bandwidth, SF7, EC4:6, Explicit header)
[12:07] <Ron_G8FJG> http://i.imgur.com/jOlF0L6.jpg
[12:08] <Ron_G8FJG> put antenna up last night http://i.imgur.com/JC0c7FZ.jpg
[12:08] <daveake> Yeah that's old code and it won't keep up. It should still upload though. Do you have it set to upload in gateway.txt ?
[12:09] <Ron_G8FJG> chimp switched it off last time,,,hang on
[12:10] <Ron_G8FJG> enable ssdv now =y
[12:11] <daveake> ok
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[12:12] <NorthgateHigh> Ok I'm back now! GPS via SMS, obviously pointless during the flight but good when it lands (As we found on our previous launch)
[12:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> OK for backup but if aerial lands underneath you may not get much GSM signal!
[12:14] <fsphil> you where quite lucky. sms trackers seem to have about a 50% success rate
[12:14] <mfa298> NorthgateHigh: previous experience suggestes that SMS (GSM) trackers have a high rate of not working, you're generally aiming to land in poorer areas for mobile phone signals, and signals are not optimised for payloads on the ground/ in ditches)
[12:14] <daveake> I think my interknot is losing more packets than the radio is :[
[12:15] <mattbrejza> is this 10%DC with yagi?
[12:15] <fsphil> need a bigger queue
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[12:15] <daveake> 100% 250kHz
[12:15] <mattbrejza> and lower power?
[12:15] <daveake> and yes a yagi
[12:15] <daveake> indeed
[12:15] <mattbrejza> k
[12:16] <mfa298> NorthgateHigh: habhub tracking requires a gps module, radio module and something to glue it together (microcontroller and code), doing it yourself is a great learning exercise, but if time scales are short there are habduino and PITS which provide the hardware and some code.
[12:16] <mfa298> if you're launching next week you probably want one of those (presumably you've already applied for permission from the CAA etc.)
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[12:27] <pb0ahx> pi1434 is that 150 or 300 bd ??
[12:29] <daveake> 300
[12:29] <pb0ahx> ok tnx
[12:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> 300Baud I think at leats just tried it and getting packets now!
[12:29] <daveake> fsphil 8 buffers done - seems to do the trick :)
[12:30] <pb0ahx> the signaal is very weakly on this moment but it is comming up
[12:30] <fsphil> for the multi-packet upload you might be better with the one longer queue
[12:33] <daveake> yes indeed
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[12:40] <fab4space> daveake, this is awesome :)
[12:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm daveake what does SDV buffer of "SSSS" mean ?
[12:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hum no free buffers must have filled up I guess
[12:45] <fsphil> hazy conditions today
[12:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> Could the SSDV server be having problems with the data rate, I can't see that my uplink bandwidth is the problem ?
[12:48] <fsphil> it's possible
[12:48] <fsphil> postgres seems busy but not too bad
[12:49] <daveake> SSSS means oops
[12:49] <daveake> even now I'm still getting the buffers full, with 2 gateways
[12:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> That's what I'm getting early no problems at all then all of a sudden jumps to high numbers and then SSSS
[12:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah its falling back to sensible numbers again
[12:51] <daveake> hmm ... I'm running just 1 gateway now so maybe it's to do with server side
[12:51] <fsphil> there did seem to be a buildup on the db side there
[12:51] <fsphil> I've give it a poke and it seems to be running better now
[12:52] <daveake> ok back to 2 gateways ...
[12:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> yup staying in the 1's and 2's again now
[12:52] <fsphil> yeah building up again
[12:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> yes climbing
[12:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> 9999
[12:52] <daveake> 1 sec I'll kill 1 gateway
[12:52] <daveake> killed
[12:53] <fsphil> ok adjusted a setting
[12:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> no went down and back up agaion
[12:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> ah falling again
[12:53] <fsphil> numbers look more sensible now
[12:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> yes 1100 now
[12:54] <fsphil> still some spikes but it's recovering quicker
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[12:55] <daveake> uplink hasn't been working for a while
[12:55] <fsphil> burst of activity now
[12:55] <daveake> Last one was -12 snr
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[12:55] <daveake> I've moved the aerial too point the right way now, to see if it starts again
[12:55] <fsphil> and calming again
[12:56] <daveake> to ^
[12:59] <fsphil> running smoothly now
[13:00] <fsphil> I will need to improve that before Darkside hits it
[13:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> yup looks good here as well
[13:03] <G8FJG> I've lost all rx packets since img154
[13:03] <edmoore> careless
[13:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> looks good here running snr of 0 not sure it can go positive!
[13:04] <G8FJG> very careles ,,,,3 pin reboot of pi was required
[13:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> buffers filling up
[13:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> filled again
[13:05] <daveake> ok here
[13:05] <daveake> but I have the 8-buffer mod
[13:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> i'm out of buffers again SSSS
[13:05] <daveake> ok killed 1 gateway
[13:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> and it drops again, obviously too many of us hitting!
[13:07] <daveake> yeah, I'll do the multiple-packet thing soon and see how that works
[13:07] <fab4space> 161 was fast
[13:07] <edmoore> what happened to barc?
[13:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> it burst
[13:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> and landed
[13:08] <edmoore> and went funkyzeit on telem?
[13:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> possibly in a sailing club lake !
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[13:09] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm -7.5m/s at 376m ...
[13:11] <daveake> Now I have imagemagick there, I might tweak the gamma before tx next flight
[13:12] <fab4space> daveake , are there plans to include the overlay data in the jpeg metadata instead and do the imagemagick postprocessing on the ssdv server?
[13:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> might need to play with it at different hieghts
[13:13] <daveake> They are in the jpeg data
[13:13] <daveake> however that won't get through ssdv anyway
[13:13] <fab4space> oh yes ssdv strip it
[13:13] <daveake> #167 is nice
[13:14] <fab4space> are the original images kepts on the rpi sdcard?
[13:14] <daveake> yes
[13:14] <fab4space> ok :)
[13:14] <daveake> the overlay is in a temp file just before ssdv conversion
[13:14] <fab4space> ok nice!
[13:14] <daveake> but all jpegs get the telemetry added to them
[13:19] <daveake> burst
[13:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> buffers again
[13:19] <fsphil> packet processing wait times are quite bouncy at the moment
[13:19] <daveake> ok
[13:19] <pb0ahx> Team PI434 mni tnx for fun from netherlands
[13:19] <daveake> The uplink wants more power or something
[13:20] <daveake> downlink doesn't :)
[13:21] <fsphil> nice picture of the ground
[13:21] <daveake> and woo the balloon is now a chute
[13:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[13:22] <fsphil> needs a mark at the peak altitude
[13:23] <daveake> yes
[13:25] <craag> can you not hotpatch that over the uplink yet daveake ?
[13:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[13:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> Needs compass heading of camera, then overlay the track on the image as well ;-)
[13:27] <fab4space> you need to setup a telnet via lora uplink daveake :p
[13:28] <fsphil> ssh surely
[13:29] <fsphil> mosh might work better over radio
[13:29] <daveake> er, no, craag :)
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[13:31] Action: craag checks daveake's uplink code for rce vulns
[13:33] <daveake> :)
[13:33] <fsphil> I can guess the ssh password already
[13:33] <G8FJG> img 111 was my best http://i.imgur.com/fMAg4o6.jpg
[13:33] <edmoore> beagleboneisbetter
[13:34] <edmoore> i believe that with G8FJG's last post we have achieved the most convoluted way of seeing a digital image ever achieved
[13:35] <fsphil> no, it's not in a .doc file
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[13:35] <edmoore> daveake has gone to the stratosphere to take the bits and then sent them very slowly from a floating balloon over hundreds of km to G8FJG who has then decoded the tones with a computer and then put them up on a screen and then taken a photograph of the screen with another digital camera
[13:35] <edmoore> and then....
[13:35] <edmoore> and so on
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[13:36] <daveake> Now print it and post it to me, and I'll scan it ...
[13:37] <edmoore> or maybe send a stream of numbers which you print on ticker tape
[13:37] <fsphil> describe it over the phone
[13:37] <G8FJG> when you are retired and got nothing better to do/// I,ve got an old china clay fax machine .I could use that
[13:37] <edmoore> the put up all the strips aligned on a big wall and get grad students to colour them in with a large number of penciles each a shade that matches the numbers
[13:37] <edmoore> like the old nasa probs days
[13:38] <edmoore> http://blogs-images.forbes.com/brucedorminey/files/2015/08/mariner-4-image-1940x1466.jpg
[13:38] <edmoore> (isn't that amazing?)
[13:39] <G8FJG> paint by numbers 1's and 0's of course
[13:39] <fsphil> hah, was just looking for that image
[13:39] <fsphil> https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/pia14033.jpg
[13:39] <fsphil> silly resolution
[13:40] <mattbrejza> oh neat you can see the numbers under the paint
[13:40] <fsphil> could re-construct some of it. can't really see anything under the blacks, but easy to guess :)
[13:41] <fsphil> the red covers the numbers too
[13:41] <edmoore> not even vga is it
[13:44] <fsphil> about 200 pixels wide
[13:45] <edmoore> would be a fun computer vision project
[13:45] <fsphil> about the same in vertical
[13:45] <edmoore> read the numbers off that huge jpeg and render the image
[13:46] <edmoore> cubic interp between unknown values
[13:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> PI gone for me
[13:46] <Vaizki> I'm guessing with a bit of image processing you could push number outlines much more visible
[13:46] <daveake> yeah gone here
[13:47] <daveake> Landing near Avebury, which is nice
[13:47] <edmoore> embedded that pic almost killed irrccloud just now
[13:47] <edmoore> embedding*
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[13:49] <G8FJG> img 200 thats it
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[14:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0RPI_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0RPI_chase
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[14:44] <R34lB0rg> what is a typical air pressure inside a hab balloon on the ground? eg. when test-filling with air
[14:45] <mfa298> about the same as the air pressure outside the balloon
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[14:46] <R34lB0rg> about means +10 Pa / +100 Pa / +1000 Pa?
[14:47] <Vaizki> +0 is enough?
[14:47] <Vaizki> the idea is to displace heavy air with lighter helium to create lift. when you put it under pressure helium just becomes heavier?
[14:48] <R34lB0rg> only if the balloon is weightless and does not have to stretch
[14:48] <R34lB0rg> pV=nRT
[14:48] <Vaizki> ok I will just walk away from this then and leave the experts to it :)
[14:49] <R34lB0rg> Vaizki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law
[14:49] <R34lB0rg> n = amount in mole = weight
[14:50] <Vaizki> I have no idea how this is relevant but I'm sure there's a long way 'round that goes through there?
[14:51] <R34lB0rg> Vaizki, double the pressure and you double the density
[14:51] <Vaizki> thank you mr. data, I am fully aware of this
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> From memory, the pressure in the balloon is ~4mB
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> That is at least of the right order of magnitude
[14:52] <Vaizki> pressure difference
[14:52] <Vaizki> :)
[14:52] <Vaizki> sorry
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> #PSIGMatters
[14:53] <edmoore> R34lB0rg: i think it's like order 100Pa
[14:53] <edmoore> burst pressures are about 500Pa i think, but can't find a ref
[14:53] <edmoore> all differential
[14:54] <R34lB0rg> thank you
[14:54] <R34lB0rg> i've been googling for a ref before asking here but couldn't find one either
[14:54] <edmoore> an instrumented flight with accurate differential pressures and temps would be a really good thing
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[14:55] <edmoore> it would help a lot with the ascent rate model
[14:56] <mattbrejza> burst pressure has been measured previosuly fyi
[14:56] <R34lB0rg> I just did some calculations with the standard atmosphere model today - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGJgKSb7dX_LQhLOu_z_HQQEEpSuTscytyL-94Zeq7k/pubhtml
[14:57] <edmoore> mattbrejza: we know, it's a hard ref that is missing
[14:57] <edmoore> if you know where one is then that'd be superzeit
[14:57] <R34lB0rg> so aiming for ~38.000m would almost certainly make a floater, right?
[14:57] <mattbrejza> hmm it might have been emailed round the list
[14:58] <mattbrejza> i dont think its on habitat as it was logged rather than transmitted
[14:58] <edmoore> i don't see how that follows?
[14:58] <R34lB0rg> this guy did some pretty good calculations http://www.zmatt.net/weather-balloon-physics/
[14:59] <mattbrejza> http://www.benoxley.com/b/altitude_controller_report.pdf
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[14:59] <edmoore> brb restart
[14:59] <mattbrejza> fig27
[15:00] <R34lB0rg> edmoore, I think pressure from the balloon would become dominant and prevent further expansion
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> R34lB0rg: What happens in practice to get a good float:
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> R34lB0rg: the balloon leaves the elastic region where it is constant pressure, and transitions to being in tension and increasing pressure
[15:02] <Vaizki> UBSEDS14 is what happens
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> If this increase in internal pressure causes the gas to be dense enough to be denser than the outside atmosphere, before the balloon bursts, you get a float
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> The amount of free lift - the 'spare' lift of the balloon indirectly sets the amount of pressure the balloon has to take in this state without bursting.
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> And as this also sets the ascent rate, in general a slow ascent means it's likely to float
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> Balloon manufacturer matters
[15:04] <R34lB0rg> SpeedEvil, you forgot that the gas still has to carry the payload
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> No, I diddn't.
[15:05] <R34lB0rg> "denser than the outside atmosphere"
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> The whole systems density
[15:05] <R34lB0rg> average density of balloon has to equal atmospheric density at that altitude
[15:06] <R34lB0rg> pressure from balloon hull has to prevent average balloon density from further decreasing
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[15:23] <Brian_> afternoon all new guy from suffolk
[15:25] <Vaizki> afternoon sir
[15:25] <Brian_> how are you today?
[15:25] <Brian_> i'm looking to resurrect my balloon project
[15:26] <edmoore> you've come to the right place
[15:26] <edmoore> beware using defibrulators on hydrogen balloons
[15:27] <Vaizki> or adrenaline syringes
[15:27] <Brian_> i can do pi stuff, sensors, camera scripts etc but no nothing about tracking or balloon side
[15:29] <edmoore> well, you can do the hard bit then
[15:29] <edmoore> so we're all big fans of using radio telemetry to send down gps coordinates (and other things) throughout the flight
[15:29] <edmoore> have you seen the online tracking stuff?
[15:30] <Brian_> if that's what commonly used on here i'm happy to go with that, yes i've seen recievers and transmitters and the online tracking but no clue what i need to but to work with the pi
[15:31] <edmoore> well, broadly you need a radio transmitter and a gps receiver
[15:32] <edmoore> the pi talks to both of them and you would write some software to do that talking
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[15:33] <edmoore> you can buy those two things as modules with prototyping connectors so you can wire it all up
[15:33] <HAB360> GREETINGS EARTHLINGS
[15:33] <edmoore> alternatively there are pi-hats that have both if you want an off-the-shelf thing
[15:34] <HAB360> hello Ed
[15:34] <R34lB0rg> eg. http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/
[15:34] <R34lB0rg> hello HAB360
[15:34] <edmoore> pi-in-the-sky is basically a complete tracker thing that would shortcircuit the 'project' part of it for you, if you just wanted to buy a thing and turn it on and go
[15:34] <edmoore> hi HAB360
[15:35] <Brian_> ahh was looking at that kit earlier only thing is i need to use some gpio pins for sensors
[15:35] <edmoore> i presume if you want it to be more of a project then you can diy
[15:35] <HAB360> ahh good lInk Ed, I was actually here to discuss tracking and launch sites!
[15:35] <edmoore> you'll learn a lot more
[15:35] <HAB360> i have just ordered the balloon and parachute
[15:35] <edmoore> grand
[15:36] <Brian_> HAB360 not near suffolk are you lol
[15:36] <HAB360> lol no
[15:36] <edmoore> launching from suffolk is likely problematic
[15:36] <edmoore> as winds tend to take you east
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[15:37] <Brian_> ahh didn't think of that so would probably need to look at cambridge?
[15:37] <HAB360> ahh
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[15:38] <HAB360> i was here to talk about the cambridge site
[15:38] <edmoore> Brian_: that's one option maybe yep
[15:39] <edmoore> it's not an official launch site run by UKHAS or anything - no such thing exists as far as i know - but a private college at the university where cusf launch from and have historically sometimes let other people launch from there IF someone is around and free and willing to supervise
[15:40] <nick_> Which college?
[15:40] <Brian_> great
[15:40] <adamgreig> i should make it clear that the college otherwise have nothign to do with it and you shouldn't ever contact the collect directly about launching
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[15:41] <adamgreig> the college generously let CUSF run a launch site there, and CUSF occasionally generously let other people launch from it
[15:41] <edmoore> just got your text HAB360
[15:41] <HAB360> Ahh Adam, just the man
[15:41] <edmoore> nick_: churchill
[15:41] <edmoore> you mentioned a JRF openeing at churchill iirc
[15:43] <Brian_> so would i need something like this http://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/breakout-boards/hab-supplies/raspberry-pi-gps-hat/?gclid=CN_Ph--S18sCFa0V0wod0T8KLQ
[15:44] <edmoore> that would probably work
[15:44] <edmoore> you also need to get the radio in there somehow
[15:44] <edmoore> and any sensors you want
[15:45] <edmoore> you might wish to look at putting everything additional you want on some veroboard or something, then running a ribbon cable from the pi to the veroboard
[15:45] <Brian_> hmmm will need to thinks about where i'm going to fit everything then
[15:45] <edmoore> there are multiple options for skinning the cat
[15:45] <edmoore> yeah - best to spec out what you actually want to measure and log first
[15:45] <Brian_> maybe this would be easier to work with https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/adafruit-ultimate-gps-breakout?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&variant=288854706&gclid=CMPA4u2S18sCFSco0wodakgBMQ
[15:45] <mfa298> Brian_: if you're happy with a solering iron there's nothing to stop you buying suitable breakout moduels and doing your own thing
[15:46] <nick_> I'm soon to be living the sad life of people without a college :(
[15:46] <mfa298> Brian_: note that Hab Supplies as in that HAT is now Uputronics (https://store.uputronics.com/)
[15:46] <edmoore> they're the ones floating around in the sky that the ghost of christmas present shows you
[15:47] <Brian_> ahh thanks
[15:47] <mfa298> and you can buy radio modules (NTX2B is popular) and gps breakout boards from there which are suitable for HAB
[15:47] <edmoore> Brian_: Uputronics is run by Upu
[15:47] <edmoore> who is here
[15:48] <Brian_> great
[15:48] <R34lB0rg> someone tried gps-via-usb on a hab yet? usb sticks are usually cheaper
[15:49] <Brian_> I have a BU-353 which i use for a seperate project not sure if it would work for balloon though
[15:49] <edmoore> all GPS receivers are not created equally
[15:50] <mfa298> R34lB0rg: the benefit of the ublox modules is that they work up to 50km. A lot of gps modules will stop working at 12km, some will only go up to ~27km.
[15:50] <edmoore> specifically some don't work at the very high altitudes that balloons reach
[15:50] <edmoore> this should be the first thing you check when looking at a new gps unit
[15:51] <Brian_> BU-353 is 60,000 feet
[15:51] <edmoore> so no use here
[15:51] <Brian_> yeah
[15:52] <edmoore> note that the set of commercial physics 'gps receivers' you can buy is much larger that the number of gps chipsets that are likely to be at the core of the product
[15:52] <edmoore> so there will be many things which are just a sirfIII or sirfIV chipset at the core
[15:52] <edmoore> likewise ublox is another common chipset
[15:52] <R34lB0rg> mfa298, the cheapest usb-stick I got has a ublox inside
[15:56] <mfa298> R34lB0rg: well if you can send the right commands to it to put it in flight mode, and you're happy that it might be using more power than the breakout board versions, and might not have a txco then go ahead and use it. The breakouts that Upu sells are known to be good for balloons, can be used on lots of flight computers (includign those without USB ports) and use the latest chipsets
[15:56] <Brian_> i'm going to look into a breakout gps as would allow me some free gpio pins for other stuff
[15:59] <adamgreig> HAB360: it is, but you'd be better off emailing contact@cusf.co.uk if you're interested in the launch site
[15:59] <adamgreig> (or you can chat with me directly on irc also)
[15:59] <HAB360> IRC won't let me actually sign up. I have to be a guest each time, is there a way to rectify this?
[16:00] <HAB360> Adam, you have been on my email list for sometime. Thanks
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[16:01] <adamgreig> have I! goodness
[16:02] <adamgreig> you don't really "sign up" for IRC
[16:02] <adamgreig> you can register a nickname if you like
[16:02] <adamgreig> but that just stops someone else using it kind-of
[16:03] <nick_> If you register it correctly it should more than "kind-of" stop them.
[16:04] <mfa298> there are some chanels that require you to be registered, but there's not many of them
[16:04] <HAB360> ahh I see. Thanks for your help. I have sent off an email. I am hoping to launch early next month
[16:05] <nick_> HAB360: "/msg nickserv help register" will show you how to register.
[16:13] <Brian_> right i'll look into gps and radio modules and come back for confirmation before i buy anything
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[16:46] <tweetBot> @daveake: #ukhas pi434 position located, now to go get it. https://t.co/BfetCKgyqS
[16:46] <daveake> This hill has it all
[16:47] <daveake> White horse, pretty views, 4G, payload signal :)
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[16:57] <fsphil> perfect spot for your HAB mansion
[17:01] <Geoff-G8-> Not a bad site!
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[17:09] <daveake> Payload spotted
[17:09] <Geoff-G8-> Nice walk!
[17:21] <tweetBot> @daveake: PI434/868 recovered. I think my personal recovery is going to take longer! #ukhas #stupidhills https://t.co/ExnljKsjVZ
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[17:27] <Ian_> Hop on the white horse (drink some) and 4G up home
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[17:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VE6LAU-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE6LAU-11
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[17:44] <Ian_> daveake, I like it that you manage your audience, keeping us informed of the start and the wash up at the end when you have retrieved.
[17:45] <Ian_> It's one of those small things that count.
[17:45] <Ian_> You too RocketBoy
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[18:53] <amell_> Looking fwd to my new LoRa gw
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[18:55] <amell_> Will be some rockets reporting into it. Presumably they won't appear on snus :)
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[19:05] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnRn3Kn_aXg -- michael ossmann on pcb design for RF
[19:06] <mfa298> that looks like it could be interesting
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[19:20] Nick change: Upu_ -> Upu
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[19:26] <daveake> home :)
[19:27] <Geoff-G8-> Enjoy ;-)
[19:27] Nick change: Geoff-G8- -> Geoff-G8DHE-lapt
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[19:36] <liamdcollins> does anyone on here know what mechanism Leo Bodnar used to hit his target altitude?
[19:36] <liamdcollins> Did he have some way to let off gas?
[19:36] <liamdcollins> or was it superpressure?
[19:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> it was superpressure
[19:37] <mfa298> very light weight payloads, custom balloon designed to fit within the 2m "pico" limit with the CAA
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[19:39] <liamdcollins> so surplus lift / total lift = allowable superpressure / total pressure at target altitude
[19:39] <liamdcollins> right?
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[19:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Yup similar to these http://www.bristol-seds.co.uk/hab/flight/2016/03/07/ubseds14.html
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[19:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> You also need to pre-stretch them to ensure reliability
[19:41] <liamdcollins> ok cool
[19:41] <liamdcollins> do you know how much superpressure he had?
[19:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> not offhand he is richardoin on here when about
[19:43] <liamdcollins> ok cool
[19:43] <liamdcollins> are you the bristol-seds guy I take it?
[19:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Nope just a tracker ;-)
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[19:44] <liamdcollins> oh ok
[19:44] <liamdcollins> cool flight!
[19:44] <liamdcollins> I'm a student at Wichita State University in the central US hoping to do something similar
[19:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> may not have finished yet! Might just be waiting for an APRS gateway to hear it!
[19:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Nrth Africa doesn't have many ...
[19:45] <liamdcollins> haha yeah I wonder where it will show up...
[19:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> I believe the next one may be solar powered so stands a better chance of longer flight than a single AA
[19:47] <liamdcollins> cool
[19:47] <liamdcollins> why do the payloads have to be so light?
[19:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> The lift available from a balloon of that size is rather low...
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[19:48] <liamdcollins> and a bigger balloon just can't provide the superpressure?
[19:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Requires permission from CAA and all other authorites around world, your flying close the to the flight paths!
[19:49] <liamdcollins> hmm I see
[19:49] <liamdcollins> what is CAA?
[19:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> I UK if the entire system is within a 2m sphere no permission required.
[19:49] <mfa298> you can make larger super pressure, but it becomes more work and more failure points for seams to come undone
[19:49] <liamdcollins> right
[19:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> CAA Civil Aviation Authority
[19:50] <liamdcollins> oh ok
[19:50] <mfa298> the rules in the US are likely different to the UK but small is good :)
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[19:50] <liamdcollins> here in the US my understanding is that you meet FAR 101.1 which doesn't require permission as long as your under six pounds
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[19:54] <SA6BSS-Mike> but you realy want to keep the paload under 30grams , to keep the balloon in reasonable size, less helium, allways a risk to collide with a plane,
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[19:54] <SA6BSS-Mike> have a look here http://protofusion.org/wordpress/2016/02/featherhab-source-code-released/
[19:55] <SA6BSS-Mike> 2grams :)
[19:55] <liamdcollins> my classmate next to me says "those guys are smart!"
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[19:57] <liamdcollins> 2 grams is light!
[19:59] <edmoore> they usually creep back to about 10-15g total payload mass with batteries and anything else needed
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[20:00] <liamdcollins> right
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[20:01] <liamdcollins> that's still a feather compared to something like habduino
[20:05] <edmoore> yes
[20:06] <edmoore> horsesfor courses really
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[20:07] <mfa298> habduino is a feather compared to what some people think is lightweight
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[20:31] <tweetBot> @daveake: Photos from the Pi434/868 Recovery #ukhas #flickr https://t.co/XnrIjv8aZk
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[20:52] <ntx2> Hi
[20:53] <ntx2> have an antenna problem.
[20:53] <ntx2> I had made the payload antenna as per the wiki. It was working fine
[20:53] <ntx2> but then I had to create a new payload and so I transplanted the antenna from the old payload to the new one
[20:54] <ntx2> and now when I connect the antenna to the NTX2, I hear get no transmission
[20:54] <ntx2> when I remove the antenna, I can receive and decode the transmission
[20:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Sounds like a short
[20:54] <ntx2> I have checked the connection between the antenna connection and the antenna legs
[20:54] <ntx2> and they seem fine
[20:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> check resistance between ground plane and 1/4 wave sticking up with a meter, should be open circuit.
[20:55] <ntx2> can't figure out what I am missing
[20:57] <ntx2> yes, checked again
[20:57] <ntx2> and it is an open circuit between the ground plane and the 1/4 wave
[20:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> ok then from the transmitter end do you have connection between inner and the 1/4 wave
[20:58] <ntx2> you mean check on the crimp connector?
[20:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> after that lets see photo's because there isn't much else that can be wrong!
[20:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Crimp connector ?
[20:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> where is that ?
[20:58] <ntx2> the crimp connector that connects the antenna to the ntx2
[20:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> you have a socket rather than direct solder to pcb ?
[20:59] <ntx2> yes, it is not a direct solder
[21:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> whatever test between inner at the crimp connector and the 1/4 wave sticking up.
[21:00] <ntx2> yes, I did that
[21:00] <ntx2> there is a connection between the inner and the 1/4 wave sticking up
[21:00] <ntx2> and three is a connection between the ground plane and the body of the crimp connector
[21:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> what style of connector you havebn't got an RP-SMA involved have you ?
[21:01] <ntx2> let me send some pictures now
[21:01] <ntx2> might be better
[21:01] <daveake> There's a special part of hell reserved for RP-SMA
[21:04] <mfa298> hells too good for whover dreampt up rp-sma
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[21:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> ntx2, Do you understand about reverse polarity - SMA connectors ?
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[21:13] <ntx2> not sure
[21:14] <ntx2> hold on. I am going to log off and log back in
[21:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> They reverse the inner connector between plug and socket and call it reverse Polarity RP-SMA result is no pin=no connection if you mix the two together just two female sockets looking across the inside of the connector!!!!
[21:15] <ntx2> no ...I have not done that
[21:15] <ntx2> the connector worked fine on my previous payload
[21:15] <ntx2> I had tested it across 2 km and on buildings etc
[21:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> yes but the socket on the new board might be RP-SMA
[21:15] <ntx2> to clarify - only the outer shell of the payload changed
[21:15] <ntx2> the connectors did not
[21:15] <mfa298> ntx2: you can see the two types on https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:rf_connectors
[21:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Oh I see so Tx board and serial are still the same parts ?
[21:16] <mfa298> the top two are SMA, the ones below are RP-SMA
[21:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> serial/aerial
[21:17] <ntx2> yeah...the connector from the antenna is male
[21:17] <ntx2> and the one connected to ntx2 is female
[21:17] <craag> ntx2: What are you using as a receiver?
[21:18] <ntx2> dlfl-digi+gqrx on my linux laptop
[21:18] <craag> with an rtlsdr?
[21:18] <ntx2> yes
[21:18] <craag> have you got an antenna on the rtlsdr?
[21:18] <ntx2> yes
[21:18] <craag> Can you try taking that off?
[21:18] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> But he hears the signal when the aerial is disconnected.
[21:19] <ntx2> did that also
[21:19] <craag> ok, so not overloading
[21:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Picture time I think!
[21:19] <craag> a photo of the payload and antenna then pls
[21:19] <craag> snap Geoff-G8DHE-lapt ;)
[21:19] <ntx2> will do
[21:20] <ntx2> I have to restart my laptop and so will be back in 5 mins
[21:20] <ntx2> so will log out also :(
[21:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> cose-ups good focus
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[21:25] <ntx2> ok I am back
[21:25] <ntx2> it was a loose connection
[21:25] <ntx2> got it to work now
[21:25] <craag> :)
[21:26] <edmoore> was it actually loose?
[21:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> That's good that you found it!
[21:26] <ntx2> now I am planning a launch this Saturday from south of Paris
[21:26] <edmoore> like you hadn;t tightened it?
[21:26] <edmoore> or was it tight but needed a wiggle to make a connection?
[21:26] <mfa298> hopefully that's not a connections that can come loose again easily
[21:26] <ntx2> yeah....I will make it secure
[21:27] <ntx2> I need a crimp tool to crimp the connection
[21:27] <ntx2> which my friend has :)
[21:27] <edmoore> if it's a mechanical problem like a bad termination of coax to connector, chop it off and do it again
[21:27] <ntx2> so how do I request a launch authorisation? The local authorities have said go
[21:27] <edmoore> never, ever, ever fly mechanically (and therefore electrically) dodgy connectors
[21:27] <ntx2> now I have to inform ukhas admins?
[21:27] <edmoore> it always goes wrong
[21:27] <ntx2> agree <edmoore>
[21:27] <edmoore> and it's totally avoidable
[21:27] <edmoore> cool
[21:28] <mfa298> ^^ that, re-crimping isn't worth it and probably not trust worthy
[21:28] <ntx2> I know...
[21:28] <ntx2> maybe solder?
[21:28] <mfa298> (that being several lines above now)
[21:28] <ntx2> several lines above?
[21:28] <mfa298> crimp is good, but you really need to get it right first time, they're not really repairable
[21:28] <ntx2> I see
[21:29] <ntx2> I will fix it tomorrow...I do not want it to be dodgy
[21:29] <ntx2> glad that I caught it
[21:29] <mfa298> my ^^ that was for 21:27 < edmoore> if it's a mechanical problem like a bad termination of coax to connector, chop it off and do it again
[21:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03FRINUS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=FRINUS
[21:30] <ntx2> wait
[21:31] <ntx2> that was my test
[21:31] <ntx2> sorry
[21:31] <ntx2> made my client go offline
[21:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-lapt> Not a problem you have to test it before it will be OK'ed for the Flight doc.
[21:32] <mfa298> for admin approval you'll need a flight doc using that payload doc then put the id into the #habhub channel
[21:33] <ntx2> thanks
[21:33] <ntx2> switched to that channel and asked my question
[21:34] <mfa298> you'll need to create the flgiht doc first - done in the same place as you made the payload doc
[21:35] <mfa298> http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
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[21:38] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[23:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Legionowo - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Legionowo
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[00:00] --- Thu Mar 24 2016