highaltitude.log.20160315

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[00:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SH01 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH01
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[03:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 0320 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[05:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP9SKP - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9SKP
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[07:39] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SH01 after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SH01
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[09:05] <R34lB0rg> good morning everyone
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[10:00] <BARC> morning all
[10:00] <BARC> We've got a probable launch going up tomorrow from Stoke, not sure on timing yet but likely late morning on 434.45 (pisky)
[10:01] <BARC> could someone verify our flight please? 8c0f1e835089cc78d81ec672dff20eed
[10:01] <AndyEsser> That'll need to be in #habhub I'm afraid
[10:03] <BARC> Done, thank you!
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[10:04] <daey> the habhub verification is purely for the tracking purpose right?
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[10:05] <AndyEsser> daey: flight document approval means that it appears in the calendar, and those with automated receivers use that as a way to rotate their antennae and tune appropriately for tracking etc
[10:05] <adamgreig> and it means all the data for a single flight is collected together for later search/display/export/etc
[10:06] <AndyEsser> ^
[10:07] <Homewld> good morning
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[10:08] <daey> AndyEsser: is there a guide on what exactly one has to do to get something approved?
[10:09] <AndyEsser> daey: ensure you have tested receiving telemetry correctly (ie correct payload doc) and then ask adamgreig for more information because I don't know :P
[10:09] <adamgreig> you just put your flight doc ID into the habhub channel
[10:09] <adamgreig> and if it's sensible (has been tested, dates look ok, etc) it gets approved
[10:10] <adamgreig> it's not a legal affair and you are still responsible for getting permission to launch from the relevant authorities
[10:10] <Homewld> I have a pi with a 2.5 inch lcd screen. I am trying to use it to log in to #highaltitude. i get as far as the I am not a robot but then it fails to log in to the captcha site. Is this feature of the pi browser??
[10:11] <daey> adamgreig: i see. is there a form sheet for the flight doc?
[10:12] <adamgreig> it's the same system as making payload docs, http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
[10:12] <daey> adamgreig: perfect. will take a look
[10:17] <R34lB0rg> Homewld, use a real irc client, xchat, irsii,...
[10:19] <Homewld> thanks for the suggestion will play
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[11:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AGENA2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AGENA2
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[12:01] <BARC> To give plenty of warning.. we'll be assisting approx 23 schools to launch at the same time on 12th May so frequencies will be very busy that day. They'll all be on a pisky. Hope it doesn't put anyone out.
[12:02] <BARC> Launching from RAF Cosford
[12:02] <edmoore> email the list
[12:02] <edmoore> this is inadequate on irc
[12:02] <edmoore> you'll have to email the list for something that massive so everyone can get a heads up
[12:02] <edmoore> you're in for some fun I imagine :)
[12:03] <fsphil> oh nice
[12:03] <BARC> will do, just thought I'd drop it here first
[12:03] <BARC> can you link me to the list please?
[12:03] <AndyEsser> 23 individual payloads?
[12:03] <BARC> correct
[12:03] <edmoore> sounds it
[12:03] <fsphil> all the same settings?
[12:03] <edmoore> might need some serious tracker coordination
[12:03] <edmoore> fun
[12:03] <fsphil> this could be a fun project for SDR decoding
[12:03] <AndyEsser> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[12:04] <fsphil> try and decode all 23 with one receiver
[12:04] <BARC> we're testing systems together tomorrow
[12:04] <edmoore> ukhas@googlegroups.com BARC
[12:05] <AndyEsser> interesting... only an hour away from me
[12:05] <edmoore> you should go to cosford if you haven't already AndyEsser
[12:05] <AndyEsser> I have not
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[12:05] <AndyEsser> anything of note?
[12:05] <edmoore> it has some of the best collections of rocket engines in the country
[12:05] <fsphil> BARC: telemetry only or including images?
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[12:06] <edmoore> aswell as everything else sexy like sr71s
[12:06] <AndyEsser> at the RAF musuem?
[12:06] <edmoore> yes
[12:06] <AndyEsser> ...
[12:06] <edmoore> it's a brillina t museum
[12:06] <BARC> fsphil images too all going well
[12:06] <AndyEsser> museum*
[12:06] <BARC> yes at the museum
[12:06] <fsphil> 23 payloads sending images. hehe
[12:06] <fsphil> looking forward to this
[12:06] <AndyEsser> BARC: would you be averse to having an observer?
[12:06] <BARC> I think there will be plenty of media there so you shouldn't have a problem showing up to watch
[12:07] <BARC> I can double check with the powers that be but I can't see why they'd have a problem
[12:07] <edmoore> it's be another ground receiver too which might help
[12:07] <AndyEsser> it's only an hour away, and would allow me to see a launch in person - and track from my car
[12:07] <AndyEsser> are you hoping to recover all 23?
[12:07] <AndyEsser> Although, current timeline would have me already launched myself by then - so hopefully it won't be my first
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[12:08] <edmoore> regardless, having someone with experience and radio there will help
[12:08] <AndyEsser> BARC: if you wouldn't mind just double checking - that'd be awesome :)
[12:08] <BARC> frequency range is going to be from 433.04 to 434.36 with even separation between each
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[12:09] <BARC> AndyEsser I'll ask the question and let you know
[12:09] <fsphil> BARC: make sure you've checked IR2030
[12:09] <craag> Are all the schools responsible for receiving their own payloads?
[12:09] <fsphil> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/spectrum/spectrum-policy-area/spectrum-management/research-guidelines-tech-info/interface-requirements/IR_2030.pdf
[12:09] <BARC> yes hoping that the weather is all on our side to recover all payloads
[12:09] <AndyEsser> BARC: is that date likely to shift at all, or is it stuck in stone?
[12:09] <LunarMobile> Hello
[12:09] <fsphil> not all parts of the 434mhz ISM band are created equal
[12:09] <BARC> schools will be chasing their own
[12:10] <BARC> That date is fixed
[12:10] <craag> cool :)
[12:10] <craag> much chasing
[12:10] <BARC> I'm not sure what the bad weather plan is yet... we'll think of something
[12:10] <AndyEsser> cool - have booked the Thursday and Friday off
[12:10] <AndyEsser> not wanting to launch on Friday 13th?
[12:10] <AndyEsser> :P
[12:10] <fsphil> BARC: in particular note the duty limits on 433.05 - 434.04 mhz, only 10%
[12:11] <fsphil> you really only have 434.04 - 434.79 to work with, if you want to transmit continously
[12:11] <BARC> hmm.. I'd not quite considered that
[12:11] <fsphil> are all the launches from england?
[12:12] <BARC> Do you think we'd get conflict with 23 frequencies on that spread?
[12:12] <BARC> yes all from the same location
[12:12] <fsphil> hah, even better. you'll be busy that day
[12:12] <edmoore> you have 30kHz for each which is theory will be ok for 2FSK going at whatever baud ssd goes up to
[12:12] <edmoore> but i hope they use tcxos on pits
[12:13] <fsphil> yeah 32khz-ish each
[12:13] <edmoore> ssdv*
[12:13] <AndyEsser> how stabilised is the radio freq?
[12:13] <craag> They're MTX?
[12:13] <craag> so yeah tcxo
[12:13] <AndyEsser> gd gd
[12:13] <fsphil> that should be fine
[12:13] <edmoore> AndyEsser: it's drilled into granite and submitted a patent early
[12:13] <edmoore> i have no idea what i mean by that so don't ask
[12:13] <AndyEsser> I wasn't going to, for fear of Ed Wrath
[12:14] <edmoore> well if anything is going to test the whole repeater-input vajazzle than this will be it
[12:14] <fsphil> hi hi
[12:14] Action: fsphil kills self
[12:15] <AndyEsser> definitely need to put a biohazard sign on my door :(
[12:15] Action: AndyEsser crawls under desk to die
[12:15] <LunarMobile> Ohhhhhh
[12:17] <AndyEsser> BARC: well barring any issues - I shall be there with laptop, SDR and antenna and a camera :)
[12:17] <AndyEsser> might even have myself an airspy by that point
[12:18] <BARC> sounds good, will be good to meet you
[12:18] <BARC> Thanks for the advice fsphil, much appreciated.. I'll change the frequencies to run between 434.04 and 434.79 and get them tested near each other tomorrow
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[12:20] <AndyEsser> edmoore: did Chris ever give you one of the "Adjustable Spanner" awards when you were at Cranleigh?
[12:20] <edmoore> yes
[12:21] <AndyEsser> I Should really find my one - probably in a box somewhere
[12:21] <edmoore> or as we now know them, 'the swedish nut-lathe'
[12:21] <edmoore> or alternatively the 'the thumb-detecting nut-fucker'
[12:22] <AndyEsser> thinking of doing a suitable corny and sentimental thing for him - mounting one of my trackers and giving it to him as a thanks :)
[12:22] <AndyEsser> since I wasn't exatly the most grateful little shit when he was teaching me stuff
[12:22] <AndyEsser> :P
[12:22] <LunarMobile> Loool
[12:23] <edmoore> no you weren't
[12:23] <AndyEsser> It was a long time ago - I'm a different man now
[12:23] <edmoore> ironically i'm the one who has ended up working on a space plane
[12:23] <AndyEsser> hehehe
[12:24] <edmoore> after we mocked your space plane you wanted to build in the classroom
[12:24] <AndyEsser> :)
[12:24] <edmoore> only 35m long so quite reasonable really
[12:24] <AndyEsser> yea, but half of it was waste and water tanks ;)
[12:24] <LunarMobile> Space planes are good
[12:24] <AndyEsser> LunarMobile: not this one :P
[12:25] <AndyEsser> part of me kind of wishes I still had wonder and desire that I had when I was that age
[12:26] <AndyEsser> there are certain ways my mind worked when I was a child that just doesn't happen any more
[12:26] <edmoore> it's trainable
[12:26] <AndyEsser> for example, when I first started programming - my friend and I wanted a way to have a chat program that worked across the school
[12:26] <AndyEsser> the solutioin I came up with - a text file on a share, the chat program merely appended to the end of it, and then redisplayed the contents
[12:27] <AndyEsser> I'd never come up with that anymore
[12:27] <edmoore> but yeah i find it hard to concentrate for 8hrs straight on some cad thing for the sake of it now
[12:27] <AndyEsser> I'd be sat there working on a binary protocol and using network sockets
[12:27] <craag> LOL I have one of those AndyEsser
[12:27] <AndyEsser> edmoore: yea - I remember first time I used Pro/D I Was like... "I'll nver understand that"
[12:27] <AndyEsser> then I spent 8 hours one Sunday building a hovercraft from scratch in it, with moving parts and everything
[12:27] <craag> appended to 'system32.dat' on a world-writable part of the fileshares.
[12:27] <AndyEsser> jrj
[12:27] <AndyEsser> heh*
[12:28] <craag> And used an awful implementation of a 3-wheel enigma cipher for crypto so the file looked like binary
[12:28] <craag> written in VBA in Access
[12:28] <AndyEsser> nice :)
[12:28] <AndyEsser> ours was in QBASIC
[12:29] <craag> You could do nice GUIs in VBA
[12:29] <craag> I mean nice for win 2k
[12:29] <LunarMobile> I bought an arduino uno in march 2011 and that started it
[12:29] <LunarMobile> :)
[12:29] <AndyEsser> craag: for my AS-Level Computing, I used VBA in excel for my project
[12:29] <AndyEsser> before being told it "wasn't in the spirit of the course" by the exam board
[12:29] <fsphil> qbasic, not heard of that in a while!
[12:29] <AndyEsser> fsphil: was my entry to the programming world :)
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[12:29] <AndyEsser> before the IT teacher at the time (great guy, should look him up and see what he's up to) bought me an enterprise copy of VB3.0
[12:30] <fsphil> the blue text editor and all?
[12:30] <AndyEsser> o yes
[12:30] <craag> Hah yes I failed an excel assignment in gcse IT because I wrote it in VBA, not macros or something.
[12:30] <AndyEsser> and the bundled Gorillas game
[12:30] <LunarMobile> Ohhhhh
[12:30] <craag> hehe
[12:30] <AndyEsser> good times
[12:30] <craag> v good times
[12:30] <AndyEsser> Anyway, McDonalds time to try and stop feeling sorry for myself
[12:30] <AndyEsser> back in a bit
[12:30] <craag> only got banned from pc access for 1 semester :P
[12:31] <AndyEsser> craag: I got busted for writing BAT file "viruses" :)
[12:31] <AndyEsser> del c:\
[12:31] <AndyEsser> and all that
[12:31] <craag> lol. enjoy mcds!
[12:31] <AndyEsser> anyway, back laters
[12:31] <fsphil> we used the built-in windows chat program on the school network
[12:31] <fsphil> and encrypted it by typing everything on the keyboard one row up
[12:32] <Vaizki> :)
[12:32] <fsphil> o8i3 5y8w
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[12:32] <fsphil> I guess this only works for english keyboards
[12:33] <craag> that takes effort
[12:33] <craag> vba enigma ftw
[12:33] <fsphil> yeah. was the main flaw
[12:34] <Vaizki> I went to school with DOS And Novell networking...
[12:35] <LunarMobile> We once were in the computer room and I started the pc on my place although teacher said a moment later we should wait
[12:35] <Vaizki> So we wrote key loggers and viruses that would print to dot matrix printers
[12:35] <fsphil> we did the usual fake login prompts, had admin login within a few days. we where bad kids :)
[12:35] <LunarMobile> And then the desktop appeared and someone had replaced the wallpaper by an underwear woman
[12:36] <Vaizki> fsphil, easier with stay resident bios interrupt hook :)
[12:36] <fsphil> never did anything bad/destructive with it
[12:37] <fsphil> just randomly eject the cd-rom try in the server room
[12:37] <fsphil> I'm sure that creeped out the IT guy
[12:40] <fsphil> I fancy a McDonalds now. damn you AndyEsser :)
[12:41] <LunarMobile> XD
[12:45] <gonzo_> we have one of those places right opposite. The smell of the fat drifts across and is enoiugt to put you off for life
[12:45] <gonzo_> not that I ever liked the places
[12:46] <fsphil> I don't go often but it is quite nice. too much salt on their chips though
[12:47] <fsphil> usually end up there when I'm travelling
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[12:55] <gonzo_> I use to go for breakfase and lunch everyday at a .mil site I was working on once. For about 4mths
[12:56] <gonzo_> never ate any of it. It was just to excuse parking there, as gettinbg a parking pass for site was a pain
[12:57] <gonzo_> initially I chucked it, but it ended up that people started waiting for me to come out, for a free meal
[12:58] <kokey> as in poor/homeless types?
[12:58] <gonzo_> nope, it was a secure military base, so it was mil or civiliam staff
[12:59] <gonzo_> I'd give it away to people coming in, saying that I'd changed my mind or feeling ill
[13:00] <gonzo_> but after giving two oots away to a couple of navy lads , they twigged, so would wait outside to see if they got a freebee
[13:01] <kokey> ah, cool, nice one
[13:04] <AndyEsser> fsphil: you're welcome
[13:06] <fsphil> I was strong, I resisted temptation
[13:06] <AndyEsser> heh
[13:06] <AndyEsser> anyone got recommendations for Space/Science documentaries on youtube I should watch?
[13:10] <Vaizki> UFO hunters
[13:10] <LunarMobile> Loooooool
[13:13] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, youtube is tinfoil hat central - you have been warned
[13:13] <edmoore> AndyEsser: presume you don't have netflix?
[13:14] <AndyEsser> R34lB0rg: yes thanks - I've never been on youtube before - I'll look out for that
[13:14] <AndyEsser> edmoore: I do
[13:14] <AndyEsser> do you have a netflix rec?
[13:14] <daey> dont skip the magnets and free energy videos
[13:14] <edmoore> AndyEsser: watch 'Particle Fever'
[13:15] <edmoore> about cern
[13:15] <edmoore> v good
[13:15] <edmoore> then 'a year on the ice' about life on an antarctice base over winter
[13:15] <AndyEsser> already seen it after your recommended it before :)
[13:15] <edmoore> also v good
[13:15] <AndyEsser> and that one
[13:15] <edmoore> o
[13:15] <edmoore> i am a broken record
[13:15] <edmoore> Blast! the movie
[13:15] <edmoore> for hab telescopes weighing 3 tonnes from antarctica
[13:16] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, ones I can recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXIDFx74aSY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgOg0mzqGAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4P2oihuB_k
[13:16] <AndyEsser> edmoore: arctic or antartic?
[13:17] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, if you want to learn about string theory / LHC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKejAW0IaDA
[13:18] Action: AndyEsser plans for HAB #2 to weigh 3 tonnes
[13:18] <LunarMobile> I got the blast! DVD still on shelf
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[13:19] <AndyEsser> I ahve somehow managed to grab a 5 minute trailer... whoops
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[13:20] <AndyEsser> shall have to buy the DVD I guess
[13:21] <edmoore> edmoore: the one i said
[13:21] <AndyEsser> edmoore: yes sorry - the description of it only mentioned Arctic Canada and Sweden
[13:21] <AndyEsser> but I see that's where they did it first, and then buggered off to Anartica
[13:23] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, old nasa docus provide lots of technical details and explanation
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[13:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP9SKP after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9SKP
[13:42] <nick_> Making scientific documentaries is tricksy.
[13:45] <nick_> It's usually a slow and fairly boring process.
[13:45] <nick_> I've spent a decent amount of time thinking how you could portray this in an interesting way (although usually I think about radio rather than television), but I've not come up with anything yet.
[13:46] <AndyEsser> yea, we need a cool sexy documentary in HAB to get the new kids in :)
[13:46] <edmoore> portray what?
[13:46] <edmoore> Blast is a good documentrary for ballooning
[13:47] <nick_> I would like to portray the process of doing science.
[13:48] <edmoore> presumably quite a hard thing to portray
[13:48] <edmoore> as a general field
[13:49] <AndyEsser> In general - what % of memory of a uC should I keep reserved for the stack
[13:49] <AndyEsser> ie, if I use up say 75% of the uC memory - should that remaining 25% for the stack be ok?
[13:49] <AndyEsser> (I appreciate it is very specific to the code, but is there a good rule of thumb?)
[13:50] <nick_> edmoore: this is one thing that really annoys me though. That people are essentially taught that science is a thing someone already did, and just get the results, not the path to those.
[13:51] <R34lB0rg> nick_, would you consider science to be a method, a philosophy?
[13:52] <nick_> I get tripped up on some edge cases, but I generally think it's just a simple method.
[13:54] <nick_> The method is simple. The universe tells you that you're wrong about something, then you change your mind about it.
[13:54] <edmoore> i think it's probably hard to show lay people the method side without framing it in the context of some motivating problem
[13:55] <edmoore> i.e. a documentary for mum and dad rather than a philosophy class
[13:55] <gonzo_> acceping that what you know is just a madle and is almost certainly going to be superceded, is something that the lay population can't get their head around.
[13:56] <edmoore> madle
[13:56] <edmoore> all models are wrong, some are useful
[13:56] <edmoore> as the fella said
[13:56] <gonzo_> yep, it's like a model, but with wilder hair
[13:56] <Lunar_LanderU> ballooning floats!
[13:56] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[13:57] <gonzo_> I was having the usual philosophical wrangle with someone, science vs religion
[13:57] <gonzo_> their argument was that science doesn't gave any answers, but religion does
[13:57] <edmoore> Lunar_LanderU: you need restarting
[13:57] <nick_> edmoore: yeah, I think that's the key problem. What people consider the "neat" story of science is generally wrong.
[13:57] <Lunar_LanderU> will do
[13:58] <gonzo_> i pointed out that this was not sciences aim. It was to ask more interesting questions
[13:58] <nick_> People like the story: 1) I've got a radical new idea, 2) I do an experiment, 3) the results prove my radical idea is correct.
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[14:00] <AndyEsser> LunarMobile2 / LunarMobile / Lunar_LanderU - good lord man
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[14:01] <edmoore> i also like to think about how good science / models give us predictive power
[14:01] <edmoore> otherwise 'it is this way because god decided it should be so' would be the best-fit model for everything
[14:02] <edmoore> can handwave a bit in a bayesian sense to show occams razor gets in there somehow too
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[14:04] <gonzo_> at the beging of the modern scientific way of analysing things, there were people who tried to apply the same to religion. And the politics of the day was having non of that. And invented, the inquisition
[14:04] <nick_> If I really had to make a science documentary I think I'd focus on chemistry.
[14:04] <gonzo_> begining
[14:05] <gonzo_> all sciences are just applied physics
[14:05] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: beginning perhaps? :P
[14:05] <nick_> I would disagree.
[14:05] <Lunar_LanderU> sorry walked out of wifi range
[14:05] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: getting further down, all science is just maths :P
[14:05] <AndyEsser> https://xkcd.com/435/
[14:05] <gonzo_> that too.
[14:06] <nick_> I'd tend to split sciences up by their experimental methods.
[14:06] <gonzo_> hmmm, maths is a language used by science
[14:06] <R34lB0rg> gonzo_, discussing with religious fanatics is a waste of time
[14:06] <Vaizki> hey donuts!
[14:08] <nick_> Chemistry has a relatively tidy and short experimental cycle.
[14:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 036 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
[14:08] <nick_> (or at least those that get in the lab do)
[14:09] <nick_> Where you can make samples of things, characterise the samples, react the samples and measure things about the reaction.
[14:09] <edmoore> rocket science has a 2 year cycle of which 22 months is waiting for ESA to provide the first contract payment
[14:09] <AndyEsser> ha
[14:09] <nick_> Then you repeat that small cycle a number of times to infer how the characteristics of the sample effect the reactions.
[14:11] <nick_> I think that style of experiment has a fairly clean story to it.
[14:11] <edmoore> unlike say theoretical physics?
[14:11] <nick_> Well, theoretical physics isn't really science...
[14:11] <AndyEsser> ouch
[14:11] <edmoore> which can still be science because, I think, the emphasise on the predictive power of the models
[14:12] <edmoore> i.e. you're living in the extrapolation zone of what the models might allow you to predict
[14:12] <fsphil> it's all maths in the end
[14:12] <edmoore> and experiments hopefully help prune a path through this tree of theoretically-produced hypotheses out infront of you
[14:12] <nick_> It depends if it really makes any interesting testable predictions.
[14:12] <R34lB0rg> unfortunately many of these predictions are outside our current experimental capabilities
[14:12] <edmoore> yes
[14:12] <edmoore> but that's not a fundamental problem
[14:13] <edmoore> things which are actually untestable are a fundamental problem
[14:13] <R34lB0rg> no, it always was that way
[14:14] <nick_> I think it's tough to show this in a good way.
[14:14] <nick_> Also, I get the impression that the romantic view of "doing" science is being a theorist, when in reality almost noone is.
[14:14] <edmoore> the particle fever doc has a stab at addressing the question of untestable hypotheses
[14:14] <nick_> So I'd definitely lean much more heavily on the experimental part of the process.
[14:14] <edmoore> like multiple parallel universes and the values of things in ours being somewhat arbitrary
[14:15] <AndyEsser> edmoore: was a very good doc
[14:15] <nick_> Ignoring the much more troubling one, that you just need enough parameter space in your theory that it'll never be ruled out entirely?
[14:15] <edmoore> in a very superficial and handwavy way but i don't think you could expect much more
[14:16] <edmoore> nick_: what do you mean?
[14:16] <R34lB0rg> I like theories that account for matter/antimatter asymmetry and providing an explanation for the order of magnitude problem
[14:16] <nick_> So a good theory gives a binary prediction. Either something happens or it doesn't, that can just be tested.
[14:16] <edmoore> AndyEsser: i think chris ought to come to westcott
[14:16] <nick_> A bad theory has a bunch of parameters, and depending on their values the effects of the theory are different.
[14:16] <edmoore> oh right
[14:17] <nick_> So you do an experiment and you can rule out various parts of the phase space for those parameters.
[14:17] <edmoore> so like a ludicrous version of that would be the Drake Equation
[14:17] <AndyEsser> edmoore: Westcott is where you took me?
[14:17] <nick_> But the theories that people get paid to work on have so much phase space you could never rule them out experimentally, only some subset of the phase space.
[14:17] <edmoore> which has like 9 parameters multiplied together each of which could have about 1-2 orders of magnitude of plausiable values
[14:17] <nick_> Take, for example, super-symmetry.
[14:17] <edmoore> so that you can create any single number you like at the end
[14:18] <edmoore> AndyEsser: yes
[14:18] <AndyEsser> I think it'd be like a little child at Christmas to him :)
[14:18] Action: nick_ needs to relocate
[14:18] <edmoore> to where?
[14:20] <edmoore> are you at ox for the foreesable, where forseeable is the post-doc value of forseeable?
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[14:55] <nick_> I had to relocate from my apartment to my office.
[14:58] <nick_> To be fair to the theorists, I also rarely "do" science.
[15:00] <edmoore> oic
[15:01] <nick_> Occassionally I do science by thinking about how to do an experiment. Then most of my time is working on making that a reality.
[15:01] <edmoore> engineering-wise?
[15:01] <nick_> Which many people would call engineering.
[15:01] <edmoore> yes
[15:01] <edmoore> i know that feeling
[15:01] <nick_> Although we have a scientific approach to that.
[15:01] <edmoore> 5% of work is trying to predict some shock interaction somewhere important, say
[15:02] <nick_> In that we do lots of small experiments to work out how our detector works or will work.
[15:02] <edmoore> and 95% is trying to manage machinists and comparing stuff to drawings and debugging analysis software and thinking 'wouldn't it be nice to rearrange this draw of plumbing fittings as it's got a bit out of hand' and so on
[15:02] <edmoore> and the remainging 20% is IRC
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[15:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HAPROS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HAPROS
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[17:03] <Laurenceb_> nice http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/k2-3-series
[17:03] <Laurenceb_> bizarrely its still lower power density than the best lipo
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[17:36] <nick_> People use stupid units.
[17:36] <nick_> Why not just say J instead of Wh?
[17:38] <R34lB0rg> nick_, why use hours instead of seconds?
[17:38] <lz1dev> why x instead of y?
[17:38] <nick_> lz1dev: because the world already has a unit standardisation framework.
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[17:40] <R34lB0rg> nick_, do you have lunch at 12:00 or at ::43200?
[17:45] <russss> at least it's not acre-feet
[17:46] <AndyEsser> millifortnights...
[17:46] <nick_> I usually go for lunch at 1300.
[17:49] <nick_> I'd be happy to call that 46.8 ks, if anyone else would understand me.
[17:54] <russss> swatch internet beats
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[18:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BENNY_1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BENNY_1
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[18:57] <Ben___> Hello,does anyone know the best place to launch a balloon in/near dorset(england)?
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[19:02] <edmoore> if anyone says yes then they're lying
[19:02] <edmoore> because there is no best place
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[19:03] <edmoore> a good place is somewhere near you that is out in the open, away from an airport, and where you are on friendly terms in the land owner
[19:03] <edmoore> you then submit an application to the CAA to get a Notice To Airmen (notam) issued
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[19:05] <Ben___> Ok thank you
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[19:08] <edmoore> having said all that
[19:08] <edmoore> I believe southampton uni space flight have a launch site in the new forest
[19:09] <edmoore> you might wish to ask their advice or even ask if you might launch from there
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[19:26] <mfa298> he didn't hang on long to get help
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[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:23] <daey> the technical documentation for the si4060 transmitter says use a '0Ohm inductor' for LM3. How does that make sense? http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/AN627.pdf
[20:23] <daey> im talking about p12/124 Freq. Band 434
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[20:31] <craag> daey: effectively it's a wire link
[20:31] <craag> somewhere that an inductor could be put if wante
[20:31] <craag> *wanted
[20:31] <daey> yes. but why even put it in there. i would understand it if some versions would need a specific value there. but it seems to be a bridge for every version
[20:32] <craag> They probably built a board with an extra option jsut in case
[20:33] <craag> and then no inductance is a short circuit (0 ohms), no capacitance is an open circuit (N.F.)
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> interesting
[20:43] <fsphil> there are 0 ohm resistors too
[20:44] <fsphil> basically just soldered jumpers
[20:45] <edmoore> it might be there as a footprint so you can tweak the impedance as a function of the actual PCB
[20:45] <edmoore> cancel a bit of stray capacitance from the layout or whatever
[20:45] <kc2pit> It looks like they copy/pasted that same 5-element T lowpass filter in most of the schematics.
[20:45] <edmoore> as the pcb/layout itself is a sort of hidden component in any rf shcematic
[20:46] <Vaizki> Corners and vias especially...
[20:46] <kc2pit> But some uses of it only require 4 of those elements. But yeah, a 0 ohm resistor never perfectly matches your microstrip's impedance, and most surface mount resistors send current up off the board and would add a tiny inductance.
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[21:59] <SpeedEvil> http://www.powerstream.com/cr08600.htm /me wonders.
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Cylindrical "electronic cigarette" style 3.0 V 400 mAH 500 mA 1200 mA 5.2 grams 8.2 mm diameter,
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> 55mm long
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> lithium primary
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[22:01] <SpeedEvil> States -20C is OK
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> Comparable energy to lithium AAA - but a bit lighter and 3V of course
[22:07] <daey> the ublox modules are kinda expensive on ebay. does anyone know a cheaper supplier?
[22:08] <craag> https://store.uputronics.com/
[22:09] <daey> ebay is cheaper. i was hoping for a module only source for sub 10EUR
[22:11] <daey> an assembled module NEO-6M costs 17EUR on ebay. but it contains a lot of stuff that i dont need, that i assume costs a decent amount of money (antenna, antenna connector, eeprom, voltage regulator ...
[22:11] <craag> There might be a few used/eol ones around, but careful of fakes.
[22:11] <craag> I'd just get the M8 module
[22:11] <daey> is it that hard to get the modules in small quantities?
[22:12] <daey> does everyone buy assembled units and desolders them? o0
[22:12] <craag> we buy max-m8 modules :P
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[22:13] <daey> i see. the model doesnt really matter to me as they are mostly compatible
[22:13] <craag> that's current generation - so a lot lower power than the -6 generation, and do concurrent gps/glonass which the -7 doesn't
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.banggood.com/NZ-GPS-For-NAZE32-Flip32-6dof-10dof-Best-For-QAV250-ZMR250-Multicopter-Quadcopter-p-1015134.html - there is stuff like this
[22:14] <tridor> hi folks, We're close to the stage in our HAB project where we going to start testing our tracker in the wild...........
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> The ceramic antenna is riduculously heavy, though not an initial problem
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> - I'm planning on a micro quad at some time in the near future
[22:15] <tridor> currently just using an sdr dongle to receive signals from the ntx2b on our bench but have read this may not be up to the job of tracking a balloon flapping around in the sky
[22:15] <tridor> any suggestions on a low cots rig/sdr alternative??
[22:15] <tridor> cost
[22:16] <daey> the fake ublox dont work properly?
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[22:19] <SpeedEvil> tridor: It will be quite fine up to an undetermined range.
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=53
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> works well to add range by filtering out external interference and amplifying the signal
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> This selectively picks out and amplifies the HAB band.
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> daey: on a random off-topic question - can you lock it to glonass only?
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> daey: or GPS only? - for redundancy
[22:21] <daey> SpeedEvil: which one?
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> err - that was meant for craag
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> I'm not properly awake
[22:22] <daey> :p
[22:23] <tridor> speedevil:ok so worth endeavoring with my RTL2832U SDR but consider the amp?
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> tridor: In general, that will work quite well.
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Others have had very good results.
[22:24] <tridor> That's very encouraging(and cheaper), I'll keep going with the SDR, thanks.
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> Exactly what range you will get without the amp depends on your local transmitters and the interference in your house, and ...
[22:27] <tridor> Are there better SDR dongles than the Realtek RTL2832U that aren't too expensive?
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> The issue isn't really the chip alone, it's how it's implemented - dongles vary in unpredictable ways
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> the best way is if a balloon flies near you
[22:31] <tridor> ok, thanks for the steer
[22:34] <mfa298> tridor: that depends on what you mean by not too expensive
[22:34] <fsphil> there is quite a step between the rtlsdr and the next level up
[22:34] <mfa298> things like the airspy are quite popular now, or going back a bit the Funcube Pro+
[22:34] <tridor> £60+
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> btw I want to support uputronics by buying a max-8 and an antenna :)
[22:36] <fsphil> a mid-range SDR would be quite nice
[22:37] <Vaizki> I believe prog is working on one
[22:37] <craag> SpeedEvil: yes you can use only a single constellation
[22:38] <craag> Also it only supports single constellation in powersaving mode
[22:38] <tridor> yes, SDR prices do seem to jump up after the RTL2832U
[22:39] <Vaizki> it's all about volume
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> constellation in as the indicator from the ISS tracking?
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_diagram
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> (is it this one?)
[22:40] <craag> Lunar_Lander: No. GNSS satellite constellation. GPS is one constellation, GLONASS is another, etc.
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> ah OK
[22:40] <Vaizki> Baidu!
[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:41] Action: Lunar_Lander looks around and whispers
[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> galileo!
[22:41] <craag> :)
[22:42] <mfa298> daey: you can get the max-m8 modules (i.e. without breakout board) from uputronics store link craag gave you earlier but you need to search for them, I dont think they're listed on the browsable pages
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> and two more
[22:42] <craag> mfa298: they are listed ;)
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> but they only work in india and japan each as a regional backup
[22:42] <daey> mfa298: ty. https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=71
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> but yea MAX-8 is not galileo ready or is it?
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> it has BeiDou however
[22:43] <Vaizki> who gives a...
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea :D
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> navstar forever :D
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[22:44] <daey> what is the highest achievable accuracy in stationary mode with the m8?
[22:44] <mfa298> craag: oh, they've re-appeared, I thought the yhad been hidden as someone (ublox?) didnt like they being publicly listed.
[22:44] <craag> shush mfa298 ;)
[22:45] <daey> mfa298: right i remember that story
[22:45] <craag> daey: Massively dependent on decent sky view and appropriate antenna, but I'd reckon <=1.5m.
[22:45] <daey> craag: yeah i know. i was thinking ideal circumstances
[22:46] <craag> Which I think is what they reckon in the datasheet too
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: loran-c not forever
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> daey: depends how long you average for
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> and what you main by accuracy - if you want dynamic accuracy rather than absolute, its already very good - good enough for use as a pedometer when walking
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> Also you may be able to use another local GPS to get very good accuracy if you use the right mode and postprocessing
[23:04] <daey> i wasnt talking about using statistical tricks. just the standard deviation of a single position report
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