highaltitude.log.20160309

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[00:16] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[01:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03XXTEST - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=XXTEST
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[05:26] <DL7AD1> morning
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[08:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[08:42] <AndyEsser> morning
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[09:00] <AndyEsser> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/08/radar-glitch-requires-f-35-fighter-jet-pilots-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again?CMP=twt_gu
[09:00] <AndyEsser> hehe
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[09:15] <DL7AD> AndyEsser: morning
[09:16] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, http://sydney.edu.au/engineering/it/~alum/patriot_bug.html
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[09:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> F-35.. not so cheap to operate.. or buy..
[09:26] <SM0ULC-Reb> ELK should wake up about now...
[09:27] <Vaizki> how so?
[09:27] <SM0ULC-Reb> the sun :)
[09:27] <Vaizki> well it will still transmit only on the predefined WSPR schedule I assume..
[09:28] <SM0ULC-Reb> right.. don't know how often that is...
[09:29] <SM0ULC-Reb> every 10mins it seems
[09:29] <SM0ULC-Reb> 4,14,24, over etc
[09:30] <Vaizki> hmm quite often then
[09:30] <R34lB0rg> it would be nice if SpacenearUS could print AOS instead of "New position"
[09:30] <Vaizki> I looked at the spot db earlier and it looked like once per hour or so
[09:31] <Vaizki> but you're right it looks like a 10min cycle
[09:32] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: yepp, 20% dutycycler..
[09:35] <Vaizki> http://i.imgur.com/yRPpJnC.png
[09:36] <Vaizki> impressive spot from VK6JI?
[09:36] <AndyEsser> heh
[09:36] <AndyEsser> presume w8elk is HF?
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[09:37] <Vaizki> WSPR on 17m
[09:38] <Vaizki> so 18.104600 MHz
[09:42] <barc> morning all
[09:43] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, WSPR is a world onto itself.. basically sending 50 bits of data takes almost 2 minutes
[09:43] <barc> if anyone is awake tomorrow around 6am we'll likely have a balloon going up from a school - North Manchester, 434.45 (pisky)
[09:43] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: speedy :P
[09:43] <barc> assuming the notam arrives in time...
[09:43] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, yes but the occupied bandwidth is only 6Hz and can be heard very far away
[09:44] <AndyEsser> Yea, I suppose :P
[09:44] <Vaizki> downside is that you need a good clock to keep in sync
[09:50] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: elk? is running on 20m as far as i se
[09:50] <SM0ULC-Reb> e
[09:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> barc, will there be a flight doc on habitat, if there is then my system can be automated, otherwise ...
[09:53] <Vaizki> SM0ULC-Reb, do bring me a cup of coffee please...
[09:54] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: I only have -4 Mhz-espresso, ok?
[09:56] <barc> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap, it seems to still be there from our other flights - at least it was on Monday without updating anything. Is it more common practice to set up a new flight doc each flight?
[09:56] <Vaizki> SM0ULC-Reb, sure.. whatever that is :O
[09:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yes because it has a time limit! after that it no longer applies!!!
[09:57] <Vaizki> it doesn't appear on the calendar, on the bot .flights list or on the GUI of the dl-fldigi software if the timerange is not right
[09:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> The previous "barc" one expired midnight 23rd Sep 2015!!
[09:58] <AndyEsser> I'm not 100% certain... but I think that might have been a while ago :)
[09:59] <barc> makes sense. I'll pull up a fresh one
[09:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah there is another one for 2016 that was barc11-1, but they normally only last 24 hours, but you decide when you put the dates in.
[10:00] <mfa298> barc you might have been thinking of the payload docs which don't expire and will get you on the map, but as above te flight docs do expire and provide useful things like the calendar, client configuration and flight data export
[10:01] <Vaizki> barc, don't skimp on the end time.. make sure it covers at least the whole flight + a safety margin in case of any delay
[10:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yup Launch Window runs from Time for whatever waas selected.
[10:02] <barc> mfa298, that would be what I was thinking of
[10:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> All the data for a flight is can then be retrived by that reference.
[10:03] <mfa298> also flight docs need approving so put the docid (long string of letters and numbers) into the #habhub channel and hopefully someone will do the honours
[10:04] <barc> mfa298, thanks, upu sorted us out last time and it's true we've been a little slack at keeping it up to date
[10:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Thing is several people rely on getting the position data from Habitat to swing our aerials around during the flight, without a flight doc then aerials don't know where to point.
[10:06] <barc> that sounds like a pretty clever system
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[10:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Just some software that craag wrote that sends the info to the rotaters Habrotate-cli
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[10:07] <AndyEsser> wish I Could get in on that action
[10:07] <AndyEsser> I should check out my loft for possible antenna space
[10:07] <G3WDI> good morning
[10:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Morning
[10:07] <Vaizki> wish I was within range of more than one balloon per 3 months :D
[10:08] <G3WDI> I am trying in install the lora gateway on Pi 3. When I run it I get Unable to open SPI device No such file or directory
[10:08] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: move closer :P
[10:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Not even UBSEDS14 is going to get that close to you!
[10:08] <daveake> G3WDI Enabled SPI in raspi-config ?
[10:09] <mfa298> G3WDI: you might need to enable spi in raspi-config (sorry it's been a while since I've tried setting up a new spi based image)
[10:09] <mfa298> snap
[10:09] <daveake> :)
[10:10] <G3WDI> config says I did will try again thanks
[10:13] <G3WDI> perfect!! thanks
[10:13] <daveake> np :)
[10:15] <AndyEsser> Upu: you know you can just rename a twitter account, didn't have to set up a new one?
[10:19] <Upu> I want to keep HABSupplies :)
[10:19] <AndyEsser> fair enough :)
[10:20] <barc> Docid: 657643b92ad6a92eee80beec4b543f01
[10:23] <craag> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Any outstanding issues with habrotate?
[10:25] <edmoore> my issue with it is that it's outstanding
[10:26] <craag> aww thanks ed
[10:30] <edmoore> anytime
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[10:30] <edmoore> i be spraying my pcbs with acrylic protective laquer so i'm full of the joys of spring
[10:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> craag only only one where there is no "sentence ID" to sort on, UBSEDS14 doesn't use one only time and date
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[10:33] <AndyEsser> edmoore: got a message from Chris late last night - apparently he's leaving teaching :P
[10:33] <AndyEsser> :O*
[10:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> think your aware of that ?
[10:34] <edmoore> oh really?
[10:34] <edmoore> to do what?
[10:34] <edmoore> tech?
[10:35] <AndyEsser> edmoore: not sure - he was just asking if I was around over Easter to meet up before he has his last 2 weeks of teaching. He hasn't responded to my message asking what his next adventure is
[10:35] <craag> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Ah yes... I might have fixed that actually, just need py2exe working again.
[10:35] <AndyEsser> most of the messages were done at 4am and 6am :P
[10:35] <edmoore> lol
[10:35] <edmoore> i shall try and catch up with him
[10:36] <AndyEsser> shame to lose him from teaching - he was one of (if not the) best teachers I've ever had
[10:36] <edmoore> snap
[10:36] <AndyEsser> wonder if he's going full time WLX or something
[10:36] <AndyEsser> or maybe just wanting to spend more time with the baby
[10:37] <craag> I have a g-5500 on my desk, and was thinking the other day it'd be cool to track some habs, but I'd need to write a habitat interface... totally forgot I already had.
[10:37] <AndyEsser> craag: was it that traumatic an experience?
[10:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ha ha :-)
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[10:44] <craag> AndyEsser: couchdb + windows dev environment + people with incorrect payload docs....
[10:44] <AndyEsser> couchdb: yay
[10:44] <AndyEsser> windows dev: nay
[10:44] <AndyEsser> people: nay
[10:44] <AndyEsser> it wasn't entirely terrible then :P
[10:44] <fsphil> windows and python
[10:44] <fsphil> how well do they play together?
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[10:44] <edmoore> it could be worse
[10:44] <craag> Also didn't have a physical unit to test with, so had one version that tried to get 0.5 degrees accuracy and sent Upu's rotator into oscillation..
[10:45] <AndyEsser> ha
[10:45] <edmoore> i think if you get the right package manager to install it all on windows (conda) then you're ok
[10:45] <edmoore> and everything in the std lib works fine in windows
[10:45] <edmoore> pyserial and everything
[10:45] <AndyEsser> Yea, I've not had any problems with python on windows using conda, but then I don't exactly stress it
[10:45] <craag> Yeah that bit is fine, python environment, then py2exe throws together an exe and libs in DLLs.
[10:45] <AndyEsser> I have it installed purley to run ipython notebook
[10:45] <AndyEsser> purley?!
[10:46] <AndyEsser> err... god awful place
[10:46] <AndyEsser> wear a stab vest
[10:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EA7JFY_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EA7JFY_chase
[10:46] <edmoore> near croydon isn;t it
[10:46] <AndyEsser> Hmm... Rotators aren't cheap :(
[10:46] <AndyEsser> edmoore: yea
[10:46] <fsphil> good ones anyway
[10:46] <AndyEsser> it's only saving grace is that it has an Ikea and the nearest KFC to me when I lived down those parts
[10:47] <edmoore> if those are saving graces then that doesn't speak well of it
[10:47] <AndyEsser> :)
[10:48] <craag> AndyEsser: rallies/club auctions are the best bet for them
[10:48] <craag> the uni club picked this g-5500 up for £40 (don't expect that!)
[10:48] <AndyEsser> just looked at a g-450C and it's £250
[10:48] <AndyEsser> and that's entry-level
[10:48] <AndyEsser> I should probably track down the Chester HAM club and get an introduction
[10:50] <edmoore> it's not the freemasons
[10:50] <edmoore> rotators are a funny business really
[10:50] <edmoore> they're made really pretty crudely
[10:50] <AndyEsser> last I googled you could only join the club by invitation from an existing member :)
[10:50] <craag> wat
[10:50] <edmoore> they're all bang-bang and clinkety clonk
[10:50] <edmoore> very little grace
[10:51] <AndyEsser> I'll just make my own instead ;)
[10:51] <fsphil> Club Andy
[10:51] <edmoore> well i'd be tempted, honestly
[10:51] <edmoore> or at least retorfit some feedback and do new electronics
[10:51] <edmoore> apply some control theory
[10:51] <AndyEsser> I was going to say it - but then suspected I'd get called a moron
[10:51] <fsphil> how do you weatherproof them?
[10:51] <AndyEsser> fsphil: it'll be in my loft
[10:51] <AndyEsser> not outside
[10:51] <edmoore> well if you say it you get called a moron
[10:52] <edmoore> if i say it it's ok
[10:52] <edmoore> that's how it works
[10:52] <AndyEsser> indeed
[10:52] <AndyEsser> maybe in 10 years I'll migrate out of n00b status :P
[10:52] <edmoore> fsphil: seals
[10:52] <Vaizki> mil grade navy seals
[10:52] <craag> yeah the yaesu uses one of the motors with two windings, and drives one, and has a capacitor to feed the phase offset to the other
[10:52] <craag> then it's jsut a switch that puts 24V AC on one or the other
[10:52] <Vaizki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_6p-1J551Y
[10:53] <edmoore> the metric is a progression of flights (or comparable),] not time
[10:53] <Vaizki> wow how have I missed this
[10:53] <craag> and a pot for position feedback
[10:53] <craag> noisy pot at that
[10:53] <craag> I'd like to remove the capacitor and do variable frequency drive
[10:54] <craag> get it to track continuously
[10:54] <edmoore> could make a proper thing that can go on the roof
[10:54] <edmoore> gyro stabilised
[10:54] <Vaizki> mems thing + brushless drive
[10:54] <edmoore> like the barrel of a modern tank as it bounces over terrain
[10:55] <craag> that'd be sweet
[10:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> No sensible aerial is going to have that sort of beamwidth ;-) Unless your way up in the GHz!
[10:56] <edmoore> who said sensible?
[10:56] <edmoore> but like a phased pair of 7-el yagis would be fun
[10:56] <edmoore> and not unreasonably large
[10:57] <craag> :D
[10:57] <craag> also AndyEsser most of the commercial rotators are slooow
[10:58] <AndyEsser> craag: at the rate a HAB moves, does that matter?
[10:58] <Vaizki> no
[10:58] <craag> not unless it's on a car roof :P
[10:58] <Vaizki> but if you want to change to another payload..
[10:58] <AndyEsser> ah ok - yea
[10:59] <craag> for example: 5500 to do 360 az is ~1 minute
[10:59] <craag> to do 180 el is more than that
[10:59] <AndyEsser> wow
[10:59] <AndyEsser> that is slow
[10:59] <AndyEsser> sorry
[10:59] <AndyEsser> slllloooooooooow
[10:59] <gonzo_> if you stack yagis, you get a tighter vertical pattern, but keep the wider horisontal width
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[11:00] <craag> yeah so side-stacked verticals would get you narrow and tall beamwidth
[11:01] <craag> eh, would look cool
[11:01] <craag> need a button for pew-pew sounds
[11:01] <edmoore> a dish in the middle too maybe
[11:01] <gonzo_> though for hab, I found that reducing the beamwidth in az helps to reduce the local noise in the ism band
[11:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Agree with that!
[11:02] <gonzo_> craag, side by side is usually refered to as 'bayed'
[11:03] <fsphil> I have two setup in the attic like that
[11:03] <craag> yep I know ;)
[11:03] <fsphil> must turn them towards manchester for tomorrow
[11:04] <AndyEsser> I really need to read up about antennae design and what not
[11:04] <Vaizki> do you really need az rotation?
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[11:04] <gonzo_> mine is something like 17ele, and they does help to reduce the general noise
[11:04] <Vaizki> antenna design.. that'd take 20 years for me to read up on
[11:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Az, yes El maybe not but it does help!
[11:04] <gonzo_> (suspect most is qrn, rather than thermal)
[11:04] <Vaizki> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap, sorry elevation I meant.. :)
[11:04] <gonzo_> putting 5-10deg of el helps
[11:05] <craag> gonzo_: real hams use both! https://www.suws.org.uk/wp//wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/800px-OldG3KMI_VHFcontest_antenna_array.jpg
[11:05] <fsphil> you want the option to track satellites too :)
[11:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> No elevation on that ;-)
[11:05] <Vaizki> I would imagine some kind of screw feed to get 0-15 degrees of ele would be enough?
[11:05] <edmoore> not for sats
[11:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Thing is if your going to use Satellites then it does need it!
[11:06] <edmoore> as phil mentions it'd be a shame to go to all that effort just for hab
[11:06] <gonzo_> you can do well on LEO sats with a short yagio and fixed el. But for the HEO sats you do need more gaina nd fullaz/el
[11:06] <AndyEsser> craag: definitely need a button for a "pew pew" sound effecct with that
[11:06] <fsphil> lasers
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Having crossed also helps with Habs http://www.g8dhe.com/amateurradio/g8dhe/beams.jpg
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[11:08] <edmoore> that's not bad artillery Geoff-G8DHE-Lap
[11:08] <Vaizki> :O
[11:08] <edmoore> do you patch them all down in the shack or do they get patched to a single thing at the mast?
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[11:09] <Vaizki> wait so that 70cms crossed is 2 yagis slightly offset from each other and crossed in 90 degree angle?
[11:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yup co-ax lengths such that they are 1/4wve difference so common together and change Z for circular, or seperate for V and H
[11:10] <gonzo_> it's common to ofset the mounting of feeds by 90deg at 70cm. As it makes the mechanics easier for not much estra boom length
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[11:11] <gonzo_> then feed both in phase
[11:11] <gonzo_> at 2mtrs things are bigger so putting both feeds at roughly the sale point on the boom and getting the 90deg shift is caox is doable
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> edmoore, No I bring each down seperate to make best use, enough wind resistance up there as it is!
[11:12] <Vaizki> I assume 90 degrees refers to signal phase difference and not mechanical mounting here :)
[11:12] <gonzo_> getting the coax's to all be equal mphase is difficult
[11:12] <gonzo_> can be either Vaizki
[11:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Both actually, at the end of the co-ax you want a total of 90 degrees
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[11:13] <gonzo_> though if you use a variable phasing thing, like the polarphaser box (great name) you can trim that out
[11:14] <Vaizki> so what controls the phase difference for the feeds? cable progation delay only?
[11:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yes and positioning of aerials on boom
[11:15] <Vaizki> don't you have to tune that for a specific frequency then?
[11:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> not that critical
[11:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> a few degrees out just gves you an elliptical polarisation
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[11:20] <AndyEsser> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0470576642?keywords=antenna%20theory&qid=1457522420&ref_=sr_1_2&s=books&sr=1-2
[11:20] <AndyEsser> another book for the wishlist
[11:20] <AndyEsser> ha
[11:21] <craag> yikes
[11:22] <AndyEsser> there's another one for £634.07 (hardback)
[11:22] <AndyEsser> or... £23 for paperback
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> yeah - hardback is more durable though
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[11:33] <craag> ~30x more durable?
[11:33] <edmoore> AndyEsser: forget all that
[11:33] <edmoore> just get the arrl antenna handbook or something
[11:33] <edmoore> much more useful to you now
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[11:34] <craag> yep +1 or arrl handbook
[11:34] <craag> *for
[11:35] <AndyEsser> edmoore: the ARRL Handbook for Radio Communications 2015
[11:35] <AndyEsser> ?
[11:35] <edmoore> no
[11:35] <edmoore> i mean that might be useful too
[11:35] <craag> http://www.arrl.org/arrl-antenna-book
[11:35] <edmoore> but specifically the antenna handbook
[11:35] <AndyEsser> The ARRL Antenna Book for RAdio Communications?
[11:35] <craag> yep
[11:36] <AndyEsser> still £90 ;)
[11:36] <AndyEsser> why can't cool stuff be cheaper
[11:36] <craag> ouch
[11:36] <AndyEsser> and crappy 50 shades of grey be like 99p
[11:36] <AndyEsser> £99*
[11:36] <gonzo_> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap, I built my own ants for 2/70 crossed. Making the switchable phasing harness for 2 was easy and it worked like a charm. The 70cm one I just could never get to work. So ended up just repatching to for H and V, rather than LHC/RHC
[11:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> So you got yours for 99p did you ?
[11:37] <craag> AndyEsser: look for an older edition - maybe ebay
[11:37] <AndyEsser> craag: Yea will do
[11:37] <AndyEsser> it's on my list
[11:37] <craag> erm it's on $50 on the arrl shop
[11:37] <craag> must be cheap uk-side somewhere
[11:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yer I never really got into building larger aerials, did a few smaller ones, but when I had the time never had the money for the test gear, now the money but not the inclination ;-)
[11:38] <edmoore> how much do you love me
[11:38] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t1yk3jb4mkwgvss/AABxbEqHjnMi34hQ85KV33P7a?dl=0
[11:38] <mfa298> find a friendly rsgb member £39.94 (or £46.99 if you have no friends)
[11:38] <AndyEsser> edmoore: what, no single combined PDF? :P
[11:38] <gonzo_> if you want yagi designs: http://www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/yagi_vhf.html
[11:38] <AndyEsser> edmoore: but thanks
[11:39] <gonzo_> advice: Don't go for highly optimised high gain designs. They are rearly reproduceable. The medium gain DL6WU is a cracker. They just work
[11:40] <gonzo_> that above designer page is great for them
[11:40] <craag> I'd say never use random calculators on the internet for yagi antennas - they're all different :P
[11:41] <edmoore> there are many solutions to the equation
[11:41] <mfa298> buying the book has the advantage of potentially useful software (like eznec) although that may be cheaper to buy seperately (/me can't remember it's pricing)
[11:42] <craag> We had a heated discussion on which calculator to use at the unui club, so people built yagis for their favourite calculator - I built one by drilling randomly spaced holes in a plastic pipe ,and using steel rod. It wasn't the worst!!
[11:42] <AndyEsser> hahaha
[11:42] <edmoore> factoid - the nsk roller bearing's catalogue has about the best brain-dump of tech and tutorial information for designing bearing systems that you could ask for
[11:42] <edmoore> it's literally a complete short course on bearing systems design
[11:42] <mfa298> craag: hopefully it was slightly better than your circular beam :p
[11:43] <craag> It was a re-use of the circular beam pipe ;)
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[11:43] <craag> it looked wirse
[11:43] <craag> corkscrewed more just for lols
[11:43] <mfa298> and still wasn't the worst, that's impressive!
[11:44] <craag> tldr; it's hard to get it wrong
[11:44] <craag> probably because I used a balun - others had found balun-less designs
[11:44] <craag> (yeah right)
[11:45] <mfa298> AndyEsser: B&Q / Wickes are useful suppliers for useful antenna parts, 16/34mm waste pipe and threaded rod are very useful
[11:45] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I have a B&Q about 10 metres from the front of the office :)
[11:45] <AndyEsser> and in fact... a wickes next door
[11:45] <AndyEsser> ha
[11:45] <mfa298> 2m of the ABS pipe can also make for a half decent mount that can be quickly tied/taped to a fence and then mount an antenna on
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[11:49] <mfa298> as an example: GP15 on a piece of pipe gaffer taped to a fence post http://imgur.com/traoXc6
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[11:52] <daveake> nylon guy rope too
[11:52] <AndyEsser> nylon person rope in this more PC world
[11:53] <daveake> yeah try asking for that
[11:53] <daveake> especially in PC World
[11:53] <daveake> "er, is that for a Mac?"
[11:54] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:54] <fsphil> if they did sell it, it would probably be at their hdmi cable prices
[11:56] <daveake> I'm still scarred from having to buy an IEC mains cable from PCW when I left one behind on a customer visit once
[11:56] <AndyEsser> o god
[11:57] <daveake> Something I have boxes of here
[11:57] <AndyEsser> My brother had to go and buy a USB cable from PC World the other day - "It'll be what, £4-5?" my response... riotous laughter followed by "More like £20-30"
[11:58] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, give him a link to aliexpress ;)
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[12:06] <AndyEsser> R34lB0rg: or any other internet seller - that doesn't help when you need something right that moment
[12:07] <fsphil> that's how they get you
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[12:08] <fsphil> I wonder if most of PC World / Maplin's sales are probably "oh crap I need one right now"
[12:08] <AndyEsser> suspect yes
[12:08] <AndyEsser> or people who don't like ordering online
[12:09] <R34lB0rg> you can sometimes get reasonable prices in chinese stores and small phone shops
[12:09] <fsphil> I do still like browsing through a real shop though
[12:09] <edmoore> fsphil: re earlier, cos i was just buying one: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/seals-o-rings/2119005/
[12:09] <fsphil> Maplin is far enough away from me that it's still an interesting place to go if I'm in the area
[12:09] <edmoore> that sort of thing is how you seal the nice mechanical guts from the outside
[12:10] <AndyEsser> fsphil: ssh, don't say that name here :P
[12:10] <edmoore> you can get progressively more fancy with extra lip seals on the outside and so on
[12:10] <fsphil> neat. so where the shaft is leaving the enclosure you'd have to have something that sits in?
[12:10] <AndyEsser> amused that the milspec connectors I want are more expensive than the GPS module :)
[12:10] <fsphil> custom enclosure?
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[12:11] <edmoore> fsphil: exactly
[12:12] <edmoore> usually the seals just come in all standard flavours of inner and outer diameter
[12:12] <Matt_PrjHet> Afternoon all.
[12:12] <edmoore> you can also have things like slingers which are protrusions between bearing and seal
[12:12] <Matt_PrjHet> Anyone from CUSF on?
[12:12] <edmoore> so if oil works its way out through the bearing it hits the slinger (on the spinning shaft) which throws it back up towards that cavity
[12:12] <edmoore> rather than letting it rush and the seal
[12:12] <edmoore> e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0dh4ae8b95ba7y/Screenshot%202016-03-09%2012.11.40.png?dl=0
[12:13] <edmoore> slinger on the left
[12:13] <edmoore> optional additional ingress seal on the right
[12:13] <edmoore> that's from a Parker datasheet
[12:13] <edmoore> parker make good things
[12:13] <edmoore> you can also have oil grooves and labryth seals and all sorts
[12:14] <edmoore> but if i was making a homemade skookum az/el i'd do grease rather than oil and something like on the right
[12:14] <edmoore> of the picture
[12:14] <edmoore> grease is good for low speed stuff
[12:14] <edmoore> doesn't need constant topping up, doesn't keep trying to escape
[12:15] <edmoore> the reason you don't use it is mostly for high speed stuff - viscous drag, worse at cooling, etc
[12:15] <edmoore> Matt_PrjHet: try adamgreig
[12:15] <edmoore> ask your question anyway incase someone else can answer it
[12:15] <Matt_PrjHet> Thanks edmoore
[12:16] <Matt_PrjHet> adamgreig What's the chances of using Churchill for a launch Sunday?
[12:16] <adamgreig> hmm
[12:17] <adamgreig> fairly slim, at this notice - term ends today so almost all the undergraduates are home or travelling home on sunday, and I'm in london sunday
[12:17] <adamgreig> but, what sort of launch time? how ready to go are you? how much support do you need?
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[12:18] <Matt_PrjHet> Mid-morning/lunchtime. We've been ready to go since December (drove all the way to daveake then called it off due to high winds/a dodgy prediction)
[12:19] <Matt_PrjHet> We hopefully wont need too much support but it was brilliant having the guys there to help out last time.
[12:20] <Matt_PrjHet> If we get the OK we'll spend the next 3 days drilling connection procedures :)
[12:20] <Matt_PrjHet> connection/filling
[12:21] <adamgreig> hmm I have to be leaving cambridge by 11am, let me see if anyone else will be around
[12:22] <mattbrejza> can always ask steve
[12:22] <adamgreig> yea worth dropping him a line
[12:22] <adamgreig> the only other person who would be around is in somerset that whole weekend, I've just found out
[12:22] <adamgreig> so don't think we could do sunday, sorry mattbrejza
[12:22] <adamgreig> Matt_PrjHet: *
[12:24] <Matt_PrjHet> That's a good point. I haven't met/spoken to him before. What's the best way to get in touch with him?
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[12:28] <Matt_PrjHet> Just found a mobile number on randomaerospace.com - that's him isn't it?
[12:29] <adamgreig> yea
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[12:33] <Matt_PrjHet> Also... if we wanted to launch at 7m/s, what are the risks? Why is 4-6m/s best? (We have the helium to get us to 7m/s I think)
[12:33] <adamgreig> check out the corresponding neck lift
[12:33] <adamgreig> you have to hold on to that
[12:33] <adamgreig> and more helium means you'll burst earlier too
[12:33] <adamgreig> so overall not much point
[12:35] <Matt_PrjHet> That might be good... we've got a heavy payload. Bursting early decreases the chances we land in the sea!
[12:35] <Matt_PrjHet> (1650g)
[12:36] <adamgreig> that's a fair reason
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[12:44] Nick change: AndyEsse1 -> AndyEsser
[12:44] <AndyEsser> Matt_PrjHet: what's in the payload? If you don't mind me asking
[12:47] <mfa298> Matt_PrjHet: generally people want higher / longer flights, so lower ascent rates get that (although too low and you risk it floating), 5m/s generally gives the best balance of height and not floating.
[12:50] <Matt_PrjHet> A polystyrene box with some Star Wars models stuck to it! Plus gopros, PiTS etc.
[12:51] <AndyEsser> Ah... you're one of the guys that did the X-Wing episode 7 premiere video?
[12:52] <Matt_PrjHet> Yup
[12:52] <Matt_PrjHet> Didn't get tickets..s
[12:53] <Matt_PrjHet> So we're trying again :D
[12:53] <AndyEsser> Have you at least seen it yet?
[12:53] <AndyEsser> :)
[12:53] <Matt_PrjHet> Yeah it was great! No hard feelings that JJ blanked us. I'm guessing he was busy...
[12:54] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:54] <fsphil> hopefully not with star trek
[12:56] <Matt_PrjHet> I thought the new Star Trek was good! The new Star Trek II... Not so much.
[12:56] <AndyEsser> I like the JJ Star Trek films
[12:56] <AndyEsser> but then I'm not a die hard Original Series fan
[12:59] <fsphil> the first one was alright
[12:59] <edmoore> me neither
[12:59] <edmoore> die hard 2: die harder was superior
[12:59] <fsphil> die hard, the next generation
[12:59] <AndyEsser> Die Hard 1 > Die Hard 2 > Die Hard 3
[12:59] <AndyEsser> didn't enjoy 3
[12:59] <AndyEsser> loved 2
[13:00] <AndyEsser> but nothing matches the first
[13:00] <AndyEsser> 4 and 5 were ok but not really Die Hard films :)
[13:00] <fsphil> he did make a better star wars than lucas ever managed
[13:01] <fsphil> apart from his inability to show scale of plantary systems
[13:01] <Matt_PrjHet> Ha..
[13:01] <fsphil> he did the same thing in star trek too
[13:02] <Matt_PrjHet> I thought the scale was good in Star Trek. That opening scene with the big ships and the tiny escape pods. (Maybe because i saw it in the BFI IMAX)
[13:03] <Matt_PrjHet> Oh wait, unless you mean the spock watching vulcan thing. Yeah...
[13:03] <fsphil> yeah that bit
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[13:04] <fsphil> and the same deal in star wars, with the people watching the big explody thing
[13:04] <fsphil> *spoiler free description*
[13:05] <AndyEsser> explodey thing = death star?
[13:05] <Matt_PrjHet> Maybe space was a lot smaller back then. They never specify how far back 'A long time ago' is.
[13:05] <fsphil> hah
[13:05] <fsphil> true
[13:18] <pb0ahx> !flights
[13:18] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03UBSEDS14 434.600 CONTESTIA 16/1000 10(39cd)
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[13:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EOS_C1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EOS_C1_chase
[13:37] <gonzo_> wasn't "A long time ago" around 1978, acording to Lucas Films??
[13:38] <gonzo_> it's a long time, if you can remember it!
[13:38] <fsphil> thankfully I missed the 70s :)
[13:39] <gonzo_> you didn't miss much
[13:39] <gonzo_> apart from punk. But I was too young to be part of it
[13:40] <daveake> best missed anyway
[13:40] <fsphil> I would have liked to see people walk on the moon
[13:41] <daveake> yeah I remember that
[13:41] <daveake> And Apollo 13 in particular
[13:49] <R34lB0rg> yeah. got 45min of talk time about "Approaching the Kármán Line with Solar Energy"
[14:03] <edmoore> where?
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[14:07] <gonzo_> well, bloody 'el. I was just googling the wikipedia apollo13 page. Without seeing this chan!
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[14:08] <AndyEsser> fsphil: would've been fun - but I think most of the 70's and 80's wouldn't have been worth it
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[14:09] <gonzo_> I was young in the 70's and in my own little world in the 80's. So avoided the worst of it
[14:09] <gonzo_> 80's big hair for girls was good
[14:09] <AndyEsser> I'm happy I was born in the 80's just so I'm not part of the annoying 90's kids that are floating around nowadays
[14:10] <gonzo_> my childhood was going out and getting upto no good. Making homemade explosives and persecuting the wildlife. Not sat at a screen
[14:11] Action: R34lB0rg was born in the 70s
[14:11] <AndyEsser> indeed
[14:11] <gonzo_> apart from playing with early home computers, pre PC days
[14:11] <R34lB0rg> expected civil passenger spaceflight to be a reality by now
[14:11] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: it amazes me that children of 2-3 years old are using iPads, but then nothing more is done to help them understand what is actually happening in that device
[14:11] <AndyEsser> (as they age I mean)
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[14:12] <R34lB0rg> yeah, I wonder where that is going
[14:12] <gonzo_> I was facinated by the 8bit machines, as you could know everythiung about them
[14:12] <R34lB0rg> some dystopian society where people use technology they barely understand
[14:13] <R34lB0rg> and are no longer able to manufacture and repair
[14:13] <gonzo_> I lost interest when PC's came about, because the answer to the 'how' quiestion increasingly became, 'because ut just does'
[14:13] <R34lB0rg> edmoore, sorry, http://www.makerfairevienna.com/
[14:13] <mfa298> the majority of people havn't understood the technology they use for a long time.
[14:14] <mfa298> its not a new thing
[14:14] <gonzo_> was just about to say the same
[14:14] <mfa298> was probably even true back in the stone/bronze ages.
[14:14] <AndyEsser> mfa298: true - but we still learn about how an internal combustion engine works in science, but majority of people don't become mechanics
[14:15] <gonzo_> I never classed myself as being within that group., I always had to knmow how things worked. (By boxing day all my pressies were in bits, with the old man trying to put them back together
[14:15] <AndyEsser> yet majority of people never learn how a computer actually works, even if they take ICT GCSE
[14:15] <AndyEsser> they just get shown how to use Excel/Word, which if they've been on an iPad since they were 5, they probably know how to do anyway
[14:16] <gonzo_> stone age man understood how to make fire by rubbing sticks together. But the understanding of how was yet to come. Now the understanding is there, but many people just want the fire
[14:17] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: think kids these days know how to make fire by rubbing sticks together? :)
[14:17] <R34lB0rg> gonzo_, my mother used to regret having bought a toy washing machine for me
[14:17] Action: AndyEsser ends crazy old man rant
[14:17] <fsphil> you kids get off my property
[14:18] <gonzo_> but if you don't know how, hen you can't be sure that whet you are doing is correct. or when the little procedures don't work, you are stuffed
[14:18] <R34lB0rg> I wonder what it is that makes some people want and need to understand how things work
[14:18] <gonzo_> actually I did spend an afgternoon teaching firelighting with my daughter. including friction fire
[14:18] <AndyEsser> a basic level of intelligence, and a desire to be more than just a consumer
[14:19] <AndyEsser> @ R34lB0rg
[14:19] <mfa298> the key is that there are always people interested in how/why things work and how they can make them better and those interested are varied. some of us are insterested in computers/radio/electronics. others in building materials or mechanics or food or ...
[14:19] <AndyEsser> others in celebrities and soaps
[14:19] <gonzo_> the B ark
[14:20] <R34lB0rg> speaking for myself, I don't care about the subject as long as it's science and nature
[14:21] <gonzo_> I've always wanted to undrestand what how and why, so I don't have to rely on others to keep things ticking along. But all my knowledge is based on tech. So i starte dquestioning what I would do if the lights went out. At that point you start having to learn about primitive technologies
[14:22] <R34lB0rg> black powder? ;)
[14:22] <gonzo_> and you start realising that the individual stone age man, was quiet a clever bugger
[14:22] <gonzo_> possibly more so than modren consumers, where everything comes on a plate.
[14:23] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I think we've gone from large numbers of independently supported people to a community of dependents
[14:24] <gonzo_> yep, pretty concide summary
[14:24] <R34lB0rg> sometimes I wish I could send anachonistic politician back to their correct time
[14:24] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: whilst I agree that a larger community and being more interconnected is a better thing(TM)
[14:24] <AndyEsser> and allows for better collaboration
[14:25] <AndyEsser> we've gone to a small number of innovators/developers/inventors etc supporting millions of bottom feeders
[14:25] <AndyEsser> How many people nowadays throw out their laptops and buy a new one, rather than just replace the HDD themselves
[14:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hr_v_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hr_v_chase
[14:25] <AndyEsser> or take it along to a store to be replaced, or phone a plumber/electrician etc
[14:26] <gonzo_> inovation happens faster, but as the tech gets more specialised, the fields get smaller
[14:27] <Matt_PrjHet> Do you have a rising tide lifting all boats though? My Dad would still be ignoring computers if it wasn't for his iphone.
[14:27] <gonzo_> good viewing on the subject: James Burkes 'Connections'
[14:27] Action: AndyEsser wonders when he became so miserable and cynical
[14:28] <gonzo_> my mother said that she wouldn't use a computer till she could watch her soaps on it
[14:28] <gonzo_> and last night she proudly announced that she had managed to do an OS roll back from win10, that the old man had accidentally started
[14:28] <Matt_PrjHet> Exactly. My Nan watches Corrie on her iPad!
[14:29] <Matt_PrjHet> Whoa!!!
[14:29] Action: R34lB0rg bows to gonzo_s mum
[14:29] <gonzo_> she was asking me how to get back to win7, but I've never seen win10, so could not help, over the phone
[14:31] <Matt_PrjHet> I hope you got her the biggest bunch of flowers Sunday.
[14:33] <gonzo_> actually I did. But she guessed immediatly that it was because I'd not realised it was mothers day, till too late to send a card. Knows me too well.
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[14:39] <Matt_PrjHet> :D
[14:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[14:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF7RCV-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF7RCV-11
[15:00] <Laurenceb_> !whereis UBSEDS14
[15:00] <SpacenearUS> 03Laurenceb_: 03UBSEDS14 was over 03Tatarbunars'kyi district, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine 10(45.72359,29.80637) at 0311457 meters about 0311 minutes ago
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[15:07] <Laurenceb_> http://imgur.com/a/7WGd3
[15:07] <Laurenceb_> fairly on target
[15:07] <Laurenceb_> I wonder what happened
[15:07] <Laurenceb_> looks like they have the engines, so thats good news for analysis
[15:09] <Laurenceb_> https://www.facebook.com/spaceheadnews/photos/a.307358872790911.1073741828.306497482877050/460240470836083/?type=3&theater
[15:09] <Laurenceb_> aha high vertical velocity evident :P
[15:11] <AndyEsser> tis but a scratch
[15:17] <daveake> 10 minute job with t-cut
[15:19] <Matt_PrjHet> I think they said they weren't expecting to land this one due to the angle/speed of the return. I guess any debris is a bonus.
[15:19] <Matt_PrjHet> Doing it 'for a bubble' as they say in Essex.
[15:33] <Laurenceb_> yeah the failure mode seems odd tho
[15:34] <Laurenceb_> I'm wondering if it went into some sort of abort mode
[15:34] <Laurenceb_> the engines were still running as it neared the barge, presumably on low thrust
[15:35] <tweetBot> @RishworthS: Wow! Watch the moment our #space balloon burst! https://t.co/AB2hof7N75 CC @bbcmidigital @raspberry_pi @pitsproject #ukhas #computing
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[15:43] <AndyEsser> predictor is showing flightpaths over to Ireland - that could be interesting to do someday :)
[15:45] <craag> I don't think anyone's delivered to fsphil in NI yet
[15:45] <craag> not successfully
[15:45] <Matt_PrjHet> Have they released footage of the landing? I've only seen the one that cuts to colour bars.
[15:45] <AndyEsser> it'd be fun to attempt - but the ones that make landfall are too far south and near Dublin
[15:46] <daveake> Yeah I did try but the balloon burst en route
[15:46] <AndyEsser> silly balloons, never co-operating
[15:48] <daveake> yeah the flight path was perfect up to that point
[15:48] <AndyEsser> should keep another balloon that the payload can deploy in emergencies :)
[15:49] <Matt_PrjHet> Does that happen often? (I'm guessing you mean burst early...)
[15:49] <daveake> It was a floater that didn't float, that's all
[15:49] <Matt_PrjHet> Ahh...
[15:50] <Matt_PrjHet> Did you see that link I posted yesterday daveake?
[15:50] <Matt_PrjHet> Discovery/your garden.
[15:50] <Matt_PrjHet> *Monday
[15:50] <daveake> yeah I did :)
[15:51] <Matt_PrjHet> Thanks again :)
[16:00] <fsphil> leo and james got a pico over here, but nobody's managed to land one
[16:00] <fsphil> even I have trouble landing one here
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[16:07] <daveake> lol
[16:07] <daveake> I'll try again as soon as the predictions work out
[16:08] <AndyEsser> will see what the winds are doing in April :)
[16:09] <daveake> It needs a float as the E-->W high level winds are unlikely to be fast
[16:09] <fsphil> yeah your last attempt was predicted to take most of the day to get here
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[16:31] <Evya89> hello everyone! I'm looking for a way to prevent fog in gopro at 30km. does an antifog is enough? which company is good?
[16:32] <Evya89> is that ok: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anti-fog-spray-30ML-1oz-For-Lens-For-goggles-/361376034461?hash=item5423b0ae9d:g:~OIAAOSwgQ9VhKVp
[16:32] <adamgreig> just don't use a case
[16:32] <R34lB0rg> silica gel
[16:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Anything that absorbs moisture will release it again in the very low pressure!
[16:33] <daveake> what adamgreig said
[16:35] <Evya89> thank you all!
[16:35] <R34lB0rg> gopro case is waterproof to 40m
[16:36] <R34lB0rg> should easily hold 1atm making any desiccant effective
[16:36] <mattbrejza> well it has to hold -1atm not +1atm
[16:36] <daveake> It seals against high outside pressure
[16:37] <daveake> It does not seal against outside vacuum
[16:38] <daveake> The moisture that was absorbed on the ground by the antifog strips then gets emitted and finds its way to the coldest surface which is the case, directly in front of the lens
[16:38] <R34lB0rg> (high pressure) waterproofing of watches is regularily tested using low pressure - does not make much difference and is a lot safer
[16:38] <daveake> Countless HAB missions disagree with your recommendations
[16:38] <fsphil> in the bbc flight I did they insisted on having one of them in the waterproof case
[16:38] <fsphil> we couldn't open it again afterwards, as all the air had escaped
[16:39] <daveake> Exactly
[16:39] <fsphil> most of the air*
[16:39] <R34lB0rg> you don't want to use antifog - it just allows the water to evenly wet everything reducing optical distortion
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[16:39] <fsphil> the seal acts like a valve
[16:40] <R34lB0rg> would be interesting to test the pressure retained in a gopro case
[16:41] <daveake> So, to summarise, do not use a case. The end.
[16:41] <fsphil> and try not to land in the sea
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[16:42] <daveake> yeah aim for a beach :/
[16:42] <fsphil> hah
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[16:43] <fsphil> I think that might have been a first
[16:43] <daveake> believe so
[16:44] <R34lB0rg> P2O5 can certainly absorb water and retain it under vacuum but the stuff is nasty and I wouldn't recommend it
[16:49] <fsphil> someone, can't remember who annoyingly, tried a heated element on the window but it still fogged up a bit
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[16:51] <daveake> Rob?
[16:53] <fsphil> can't find it in the archives
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[17:18] <kc2pit> The one flight I've done used a GearPro ($50 knock-off gopro) in its case, with freshly dried silica gel desiccant packs jammed in with it. Worked fine. That flight only went up to 27km or so, though; lower pressures would be a bit more demanding.
[17:18] <kc2pit> Personally, I like the "Use a cheap-ass camera so I won't lose any sleep if it dies" approach.
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[17:23] <SpeedEvil> err - no
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> The pressure at 27km is essentially vacuum for the purposes of most consumer electronics
[17:24] Nick change: kswtch_ -> kswtch
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> dessicant is not really required, especially with an operating camera as it gets plenty warm enough to stop condensation - and on the way up it's falling in temperature anyway so condensation isn't an issue
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> trying to enclose the camera has historically caused much more issues than not bothering at all
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> ^the above isn't - quite- right. Conduction cooling is significant until the point at which the mean free path exceeds the gaps in the thing you're trying to cool.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> this basically means that conduction stays valid for cooling at any sensible altitude - 60km?
[17:28] <Evya89> what about a camera? I saw that a gopro is enough but which one? is there something a bit cheaper? something around 100$?
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> Anything is 'good enough' - it's a simple trade.
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> There are usable cameras from about $6
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> Admittedly, they produce images that enable you to identify things, not ones that are actually nice.
[17:33] <craag> We've done low cost payloads with an 808 keychain camera and a second-hand canon off ebay
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-HD-CMOS-2-0-Mega-Pixel-Smallest-Portable-Pocket-Video-Audio-Camera-Mini-Camcorder-480P/32315826219.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_1,searchweb201644_1_505_506_503_504_301_502_10001_10002_10016_10005_10006_10003_10004,searchweb201560_8,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_6448&btsid=c57baac6-67b6-463d-8527-4b7a21823192
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> I need to refocus mine, it seems to be unusually bad compared with what it should be
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> http://www.chucklohr.com/808/index.shtml
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> you may find interesting
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> Evya89:
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[17:56] <MikeUoN> farnell have changed their website again -_-
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[18:33] <daey> which transmitter chip is upu using on his pAVA platform? http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/01-v3sg93U.jpg Googling the chip numbers doesnt give me any results
[18:36] <Vaizki> its on the other side ;)
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[18:36] <mattbrejza> si4060
[18:37] <Upu> Confirmed
[18:37] <Vaizki> oh sorry my bad wrong board
[18:37] <daey> Vaizki: i dont think it is. its just that 40601B didnt net any results
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[18:38] <daey> Upu: any particular reason you picked exactly this one?
[18:38] <Upu> Yeah it's 10mw ish frequency agile and it ran at 1.8v
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[18:42] <edmoore> amazing murmuration above work about 30 mins ago. Noisy jpeg as had to push ISO and exposure very hard
[18:42] <edmoore> http://edmoore.io/images/murmuration1.jpg
[18:43] <fsphil> oh wow
[18:43] <Upu> Lol
[18:43] <daey> tell your neighbor that oilplatforms are supposed to swim on the ocean
[18:43] <fsphil> they're giving you the wrong signals
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[18:58] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIC-C40A-4MP-2-11-m-pixel-Monochrome-sCMOS-Camera-with-external-trigger-/272088616807?hash=item3f59becf67:g:NlkAAOSwo3pWgNJu - neat
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> I was just looking at on ebay - from the context of exposure
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> I think the above gives decent 25fps videos under overcast starlight
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> Murmurations are awesome
[18:59] <fsphil> not enough starlings here. the crows do something similar but not as good
[18:59] <daey> does that word mean "the fluctuation of a big swarm of birds"?
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:59] <daey> apprently theres no german word for it :P
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> They also sound awesome if you're close
[19:00] <daey> literally a shitstorm
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[19:03] <Ian_> It certainly has potential for that :)
[19:04] <fsphil> I've been in one of those, thanks to some gulls. amazed I never got hit.
[19:07] <edmoore> v resized jpeg to save your bandwidths http://edmoore.io/images/murmuration2.jpg
[19:07] <edmoore> but it was a good show
[19:08] <edmoore> and yes it sounds amazing when they go overhead
[19:08] <edmoore> like a waterfall
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[19:51] <Ian_> Come in #13 low battery
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[20:15] <edmoore> our colour a3 at work has a habit of always working when you accidently send stuff to it and never working when you really need it
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[20:29] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[20:42] <SpeedEvil> evening
[20:43] <Vaizki> bono estente
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> good news
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[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> we have fast GPS communication :)
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[21:09] <MikeUoN> nice LL
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:11] <tweetBot> @petejbell: More photos from the 'RISHTI' space module we launched on Monday @RishworthS #ukhas https://t.co/EDup81Nrti
[21:13] <fsphil> :/
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[21:18] <Vaizki> spaaaaace f-yeah!
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> spaaace. space. I'm in space.
[21:19] <Vaizki> Our space module began descending above #Nottingham, then reached the speed of sound!
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> portal 2 rocks
[21:19] <Vaizki> ok seriously
[21:19] <Upu> habby was that thing actually doing anything ?
[21:19] <Upu> the microbit
[21:19] <Vaizki> flashing leds
[21:19] <Upu> and where was that picture didn't seem to match Rishworth
[21:19] <Upu> and let the kids have their "space" you grumpy lot :)
[21:20] <Upu> I did express to them it wasn't space
[21:20] <Vaizki> ok they can have space but not Mach 1
[21:20] <Upu> yeah fair enough
[21:20] <habby> 11 year olds look at black stuff ... therefore = space
[21:20] <Upu> anyway direct concerns and complaints to habby :)
[21:20] <fsphil> no they can't have space :p
[21:20] <habby> Bring it
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn1oQL9sWg
[21:21] <Upu> I have another teacher asking questions about it habby can I point them in your direction ?
[21:21] <fsphil> this should encourage them to working towards space
[21:21] <Vaizki> habby: why would they think the speed of sound was reached? :O
[21:21] <habby> The microbit was measuring temperature and displaying it on the LEDs
[21:22] <habby> Too bright to make out the LEDs properly, though
[21:22] <Upu> hey you got some great images of the balloon expanding, probably more to discuss in that that pretty pictures
[21:22] <habby> The picture is Buxton
[21:22] <MikeUoN> Nice one
[21:22] <edmoore> it's not space
[21:22] <edmoore> it's tiresome to call it space
[21:22] <edmoore> regardless of context
[21:22] <Upu> ah I was trying over lay it on Rishworth
[21:22] <Vaizki> yes the balloon size is real data which can be explained in class
[21:22] <habby> This > "Let the kids have their space"
[21:22] <habby> :)
[21:22] <Upu> but then I realised it was too high
[21:22] <edmoore> space module is handwavable. like a space rocket that has a problem at lauch so doesn't reach space, you might still be able to call it a space rocket
[21:22] <habby> Did you see the burst video?
[21:23] <Upu> nope
[21:23] <Upu> where did you post it ?
[21:23] <edmoore> sure but 'this' is wrong
[21:23] <edmoore> let the kids have their science instead
[21:23] <Upu> sure they will have that Ed
[21:23] <habby> edmoore - I impress that it is 'near' space whenever it doesnt sound like I'm killing the mood too much.
[21:24] <habby> Kids need to be enthused. Baby steps, dude :)
[21:24] <Vaizki> sure. but speed of sound? :)
[21:24] <habby> Yeah, don't know where that came from!
[21:24] <Vaizki> it came from the sonic boom
[21:24] <Vaizki> in theaters now
[21:25] <habby> What are speed units on PITS?
[21:25] <edmoore> I'm sure they will upu if they're clear about that is happening - it's a process, not a bag of sugar. There is no Science *and* space, rather it's an 'or'
[21:25] <edmoore> this is not especially complicated Upu
[21:25] <edmoore> so I encourage you to not muddy it or be confused yourself
[21:25] <habby> I mean I don't know who started that. Still, kids loved it and I now have an entire school talking about space, rockets, balloons and so on
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> just say stratosphere
[21:26] <Vaizki> such a big word
[21:33] <habby> Now we've got the kids' attention, we can start using bug words and show them excellent videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2egYw8kd3s
[21:34] <edmoore> Mmmm but I don't like the implication that it is necessary 'SpAAAAAce!!!1' to get their attention before saying 'well not actually'
[21:35] <edmoore> the pictures are the same regardless, this isn't a hard sell
[21:35] <fsphil> it's a bloody big balloon, we're strapping cameras to it and letting go up to stupid heights. then chasing after it. that's good enough :)
[21:35] <habby> ^This
[21:35] <fsphil> don't even need the S word
[21:36] <edmoore> and from many years now of doing stuff with school kids about spaceflight I can say that the hardest concept for them is usually what space is, what orbit is, 'why doesn't the balloon burn up' and so on, so I don't like muddying the conceptual waters before you even start
[21:37] <edmoore> i'm not especially having a big go here, it's just this is a consistant whack-a-mole problem that I don't think we should stop whacking just because we're feeling a bit defeated
[21:37] <habby> I've taught for 16 years on three continents and this is the more enthusiastic I have ever seen a school body.
[21:38] <edmoore> sure, but my claim is that that result is because of the experiment rather than the word space. I don't think being more precise would diminish the excitement. But that's just me
[21:38] <habby> Rename this project: Rishworth Space Programme
[21:39] <edmoore> You can call it a space program, just don't keep saying that specifically this thing went to space
[21:39] <edmoore> CUSF is CUSF not CUNSF, despite not yet launching anything to space
[21:39] <edmoore> aspiration is grand
[21:40] <habby> As I said before, whenever I get the feeling that I'm mot going to see the glazed look on their faces, I refer to it as 'near space'.
[21:40] <habby> Twitter is twitter. We've got much less intelligent people on their than 11 year old kids to promote our school to ;)
[21:41] <edmoore> i think that's a self-fulfilling prophecy
[21:41] <edmoore> but fair enough
[21:42] <habby> I literally don't know what you mean, now. Anyway, I love you and I don;t want to fight anymore. Also, I got distracted from showing you my balloon burst video https://vimeo.com/158344540
[21:42] <habby> Filmed from the 2nd camera as the first one pointing directly at the balloon was being lazy at that point
[21:43] <MikeUoN> LoL I like the accuracy to 1/100th of an inch ;)
[21:43] <MikeUoN> 1000th sorry
[21:43] <habby> 1000th
[21:43] <habby> ;)
[21:43] <habby> Ed will 'av ya!
[21:43] <MikeUoN> :D
[21:43] <MikeUoN> what even is an inch? ;)
[21:43] <Upu> Now space I'm ok with , using imperial I'm not
[21:43] <habby> Oh ffs!
[21:44] <Upu> lol
[21:44] <Upu> where is sibot anyway ?
[21:44] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Haven't heard from her in ages!
[21:44] <Upu> if you continue to use imperial we'll just assume you are American and treat you accordingly
[21:45] <Geoff-G8DHE_> By the way edmoore, your camera is a day early its showing the 10th March!
[21:45] <edmoore> i shall fix it
[21:46] <edmoore> i got it before it was in stock in the uk too, apparently
[21:46] <edmoore> maybe it's confused
[21:46] <habby> So, Ed, when I go on BBC Newsround to give a live interview on the 22nd of March and promote this whole thing, Do I refer to you as Mr Moore, Professor Moore, or what? "My colleague, Mr Moore, has insisted that I refer to space as 'near space'",that sort of thing?
[21:46] <fsphil> it did a good job in the low light, especially with the fast movement of the starlings
[21:46] <Upu> habby: just refer to it as science :)
[21:46] <Upu> explain the karmen line
[21:46] <daveake> and mention pits
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> glados
[21:46] <Upu> and how close you got to it
[21:46] <daveake> otherwise we kill you
[21:47] <Upu> and mention pits lots
[21:47] <Upu> :)
[21:47] <Geoff-G8DHE_> It did I quite like the Fuji cameras have a couple myself.
[21:47] <habby> WE didn't go to Science though... :)
[21:47] <edmoore> You don't have to mention me. You also don't have to say it went to space, because it didn't
[21:47] <edmoore> none of this is complicated!
[21:47] <habby> *Googles karmen line...
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[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> karman line
[21:47] <habby> 100km - nowhere near
[21:48] <Upu> thats space
[21:48] <edmoore> fsphil: it did - not too bad at iso6400, and i pushed the exposure a bit in postprocessing which usually piles on the noise
[21:48] <Upu> spin it
[21:48] <Upu> you were 1/3rd of the way there
[21:48] <habby> Going to mention you straight after PITS, I'm definitely not pi$$ing daveake off.
[21:48] <Upu> again
[21:48] <Upu> :)
[21:48] <fsphil> 6400, that's excellent. max on my jobby is iso1600 and it gets really noisy even at that
[21:48] <edmoore> you were however above about 99% of the atmosphere
[21:49] <habby> OK, now that is good stats, I'm using that, edmoore :)
[21:50] <Upu> if you go on the media and actually get it across all will be forgiven but generally the reporters will just keep banging on about space
[21:50] <habby> I'll do my best :)
[21:50] <MikeUoN> That's awesome you are going on Newsround
[21:50] <edmoore> yes they will probably space it regardless
[21:50] <edmoore> if history is anything to go by
[21:50] <habby> I told them I wanted Blue Peter. They don't do badges.
[21:51] <Upu> but good luck
[21:51] <edmoore> but do try. Then i won't keep being asked why we need rockets if balloons can get to space
[21:51] <Upu> lol
[21:51] <habby> I'm primarily promoting the BBC Micro:bit, but they do want me to talk about... the launch... too, obviously.
[21:51] <Upu> yeah understandable
[21:52] <edmoore> if balloons could get to space then why am i wasting all my time trying to squeeze a few more percent out of rocket engines, as a corollary
[21:52] <habby> Yorkshire Post, Microsoft and various others interested
[21:52] <Upu> just remind them the microbit was quite literally powered by a Pi :)
[21:52] <habby> Rory Cellan-Jones is hopefully getting back to me, too.
[21:52] <edmoore> habby: have you been involved with the microbit for a while?
[21:52] <Upu> did you end up powering it from the PITS Board ?
[21:52] <habby> Will do!
[21:52] <habby> No, CR2032 battery!
[21:52] <habby> It was still running yesterday!
[21:52] <Upu> oh ok I stand corrected
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[21:54] <habby> edmoore, only since last summer. I am a CAS Master Teacher and am training teachers in the North how to use it in class (MASSIVE skills gap)
[21:54] <edmoore> cool.
[21:54] <edmoore> Do you know Jonny Austin?
[21:55] <habby> I don't think so, not unless he has a pseudonym
[21:55] <edmoore> no
[21:55] <edmoore> He works at ARM and has been doing a lot on the microbit
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[21:55] <edmoore> including the micropython port recently
[21:56] <habby> I know ntoll
[21:56] <habby> He's been doing lots with MicroPython and I've been trying to produce learning materials for it with his help
[21:57] <edmoore> sure
[21:57] <edmoore> so
[21:57] <edmoore> http://ntoll.org/article/story-micropython-on-microbit
[21:57] <edmoore> jonny is the jonny he mentions here in how it got started
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[21:58] <edmoore> well anyway i was just asking as i did my undergrad with him, you might have bumped into him is all
[21:58] <edmoore> v nice guy
[21:58] <habby> It's a great little product. Simple single purpose programmable device that kids can just go nuts with. Was in the meeting when BBC and Eben Upton were discussing giving away RPis to School kids and I mentioned the Sense Board from the OU and said how good they were as they provided real world Input-Process-Output interaction. Basically it was my idea
[21:59] <habby> The last bit might be a lie
[21:59] <habby> But the way in which the BBC and partners have done this is excellent.
[22:00] <edmoore> mmm
[22:00] <habby> I still fear the low confidence of most 'IT' teachers will mean that many of these things will get left in the back of classroom cupboards.
[22:00] <edmoore> fun as the pi is i think one of my first embedded experiences was with a led matrix
[22:00] <habby> Hence the need for LOTS of training
[22:00] <edmoore> (aged 12 at school or whatever) and actually doing more of the low-level stuff to make my name flash up on it letter-by-letter
[22:01] <edmoore> it was absurdly satisfying
[22:01] <habby> And the need for something like a (near) SPACE launch to enthuse people and show them that they should just jump in. If I can do it (I am a total moron) then anyone can!
[22:01] <edmoore> well at least if they're cheap enough to just throw at kids then some of them might run with it a bit
[22:02] <habby> Some teachers won't give them to the kids because then they have to teach them how to use them
[22:02] <habby> I hope I'm very wrong, but I'm not
[22:02] <edmoore> i can see where you're coming from
[22:03] <edmoore> i guess for a lot of the stuff I've done with schools, the fact that I've been invited by a teacher already puts that teacher above a lot of teachers
[22:03] <edmoore> in terms of inclination to actually make an effort
[22:04] <habby> Exactly. And you as a visitor have massive kudos. Everyday STEM teaching is tough. It's a battle of will
[22:05] <MikeUoN> IT at my school was print screening you changing the font and colour of a title in word.
[22:05] <habby> Teaching is 100% inspiration
[22:05] <edmoore> i don't know if this tallys with you
[22:05] <edmoore> but when i've done hab launches with schools I've had a very strong policy of not mentiongs any of S, T, E or M
[22:05] <edmoore> just the problem they're trying to solve
[22:07] <edmoore> so rather than say 'ok and now we're doing physics' before explaining conduction and convection and radiation (e.g. for the kids trying to design a space suit for a teddybear), I just drop the 'now we're doing physics' and just explain conduction and convection and radiation
[22:07] <edmoore> and there's a night-and-say difference
[22:07] <edmoore> the second you say 'now we're doing physics' or 'we can solve this with maths' rather than just 'we can solve this like this: ' you see about 1/3rd of the eyes glaze over with 'well i can't do physics so i will now shut down'
[22:07] <edmoore> it's really apparent (in my experience)
[22:08] <habby> MikeUoN - You were not taught, you were shepherded through a qualification. I've seen it many times. The thing is that those quals were not designed to be run like that. League tables and the competition for school places meant they were bastardised into something they were never intended to be. Real shame.
[22:08] <edmoore> so I'm now strict about just describing the problem sans labels and letting everyone dive in
[22:08] <Matt_PrjHet> I did a talk on my 'X-wing in Space' project to a room full of astronomers at Astrocamp. Before anyone could bring up the Karman Line I told them I'd already dropped it to 35km on wikipedia so I was going to carry on saying Spaaaaaace.
[22:09] <MikeUoN> agreed habby
[22:09] <habby> edmoore, I think you can mention STEM, or not. It doesn't really matter. They will make the link. I suppose signposting it helps.
[22:09] <edmoore> my 200 words above was why i don't think signposting does help
[22:09] <Matt_PrjHet> (then I went over the actual physics obvs)
[22:09] <habby> Playing catch up edmoore, sorry...
[22:10] <edmoore> Interestingly this pernicious labelling thing percolates through to even my work
[22:10] <habby> Right, so the eyes glazing over can be avoided if you don't say 'near' all the time. Just enough that it slowly trickles in.
[22:11] <habby> edmoore, love to have you at ours!
[22:11] <edmoore> I'm not sure that follows
[22:11] <edmoore> you get people say 'well i didn't do chemistry, I did engineering, so i can't work out the heat transfer blah foo bling....'
[22:11] <edmoore> which is a retarded way of thinking
[22:11] <habby> Matt_PrjHet - lmao :)
[22:11] <MikeUoN> lol matt
[22:12] <edmoore> what we need is people who can take a problem and model it and then solve it
[22:12] <edmoore> and not put themselves ina tiny box
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[22:13] <edmoore> please provide, edumakashun system
[22:14] <edmoore> I am hiring
[22:15] <habby> Some of us are on it. But you've just sort of identified one of the causes.
[22:15] <habby> Which is exemplified by this question:
[22:15] <habby> Why are you not teaching, Ed?
[22:15] <edmoore> well i'm sure the sort of project-based thing you're doing is exactly the right answer
[22:16] <edmoore> i do teach!
[22:16] <edmoore> but i also like solving new problems myself
[22:16] <habby> Ah, OK, I thought you were a rocket scientist?
[22:16] <edmoore> i enjoy working on the best new rocket propulsion tech in the world
[22:17] <edmoore> sure, teaching is definitely not my profession, but I enjoy talking at schools maybe once a month
[22:17] <edmoore> and mentoring a bit
[22:17] <adamgreig> and hanging out in this IRC channel for a not unappreciable amount of the day
[22:17] <Geoff-G8DHE_> :)
[22:18] <edmoore> and that
[22:18] <MikeUoN> Reaction Engines are doing a talk at my uni next week! :D
[22:18] <habby> What I was coming to was this: Teaching is a poorly respected, poorly paid 'profession'. If anyone mentions holidays I will reach through this screen and poke your eyes out. Anyway, we don't get very many good 'uns, because they all go and work for great companies doing great things. I'm not discussing that point any further, because it bores the bejesus out of me, but there you go
[22:18] <edmoore> habby: but if you're shooting for me saying it's not that attractive financially or in terms of societal esteem or anything else then sure
[22:18] <edmoore> that's also true
[22:19] <edmoore> MikeUoN: who's giving it?
[22:19] <habby> And I'm not shooting at you personally, it's a systematic problem
[22:19] <MikeUoN> Mark Thomas, ed
[22:20] <edmoore> i meant shooting in terms of the sort of answer you're shooting for
[22:20] <edmoore> i agree with you
[22:20] <edmoore> i do have a few friends who went into teaching, but sometimes it's teach-first then straight back out
[22:21] <edmoore> one teaches physics at St Pauls Boys which is not probably representative of the profession
[22:21] <Vaizki> some fields of science are driven more by private enterprise than universities. and there used to be a time when men of the cloth were the only ones with the time to read and hammer rocks...
[22:21] <habby> Indeed. Germans have good engineers
[22:22] <habby> They pay their teachers properly. No, no, no, stop talking about that now (aimed at myself, in a gollum voice)
[22:22] <edmoore> Vaizki: rocket propulsion (if you can call it a science) is one such
[22:22] <edmoore> there is really very little of it in academia
[22:22] <edmoore> vs jet propulsion where there's loads
[22:23] <edmoore> admittedly the market for the latter is like 100x the market for the former
[22:23] <Vaizki> acadamia nuts don't go well with jet fuel?
[22:23] <Vaizki> -don't
[22:24] <edmoore> i've never tried
[22:24] <MikeUoN> Yeah, I wanna go about changing that ed. Do you have any idea where someone could start looking at rules and regs, regarding finding a suitable location to test rocket motors?
[22:24] <edmoore> it's probably not much different to any other industrial activity that needs chemicals
[22:25] <edmoore> nothing rocket-specific
[22:25] <edmoore> obviously noise is a big factor
[22:25] <habby> Right, I really enjoyed that, thanks all. Would love to meet you all at some point and learn a crap load of stuff. We aim to launch again in May. Any suggestions for the next step, before I turn in? I'd like to add a LORA board, but what else can I do to keep this sort of momentum going?
[22:25] <edmoore> many industrial sites will have people whose job is to know about noise anyway
[22:26] <edmoore> MikeUoN: if you want to get an actual experimental rig set up at a university I suspect you'd need to find a profressor to bat for you
[22:26] <Vaizki> habby: well you could track other people's launches also for practise?
[22:26] <edmoore> i believe adamgreig has been on the annoying end of trying to do stuff like that as a student group
[22:26] <edmoore> and found it tiresome if not impossible
[22:26] <MikeUoN> yeah, my uni has a bunch of bits of land just about everywhere it seems... A few of us are toying with the idea...
[22:27] <edmoore> where we are it was much easier because it used to be a rocket test site
[22:27] <MikeUoN> Mentioned it to my tutor and he was like "that's exactly the sort of thing the engineering department needs" [small group of students doing something 'just because']
[22:27] <edmoore> so there was a sort of grandfather status to get it going again
[22:27] <MikeUoN> oh cool
[22:27] <habby> We are in a valley in the Pennines. We have an antennae set up from our playing fields on the top of the moor, but getting there is a 10 min drive and kids have lessons, so can't be taken out at drop of a hat. But yes, I do try to steal them occassionally!
[22:28] <MikeUoN> Might you be able to set the reciever up with a remote desktop kind of thing, habby?
[22:28] <edmoore> leaving a school laptop unattended on a hill could be a fun one
[22:28] <MikeUoN> ah right xD
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[22:29] <habby> I have a Pi and an Airspy dongle. So that is what I am working on next. The hard bit will be getting my Network manager to give the Pi internet access!
[22:29] <edmoore> habby: i guess (again adamgreig will have gone through this more recently and more directly) that it might be easier to start by speccing a sort of first-stab engine you might want to test, and worrying about the engineering (still at the paper stage), and then going to someone at the uni with a concrete propsal
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[22:30] <habby> We have a pavilion it is attached to. I can hide it in there ;)
[22:30] <edmoore> right i am still at work, and my simulation is producing garbage
[22:30] <edmoore> and i'm not going to fix it tonight
[22:30] <edmoore> so i'm off
[22:30] <MikeUoN> cya ed thanks for the help
[22:31] <habby> night ed
[22:31] <Vaizki> night indeed, 0:30 and wakeup at 6:30.. sleep&
[22:31] <edmoore> (yes if i spent a less considerable amount of the day on irc i could probably fit the same work into 9-5)
[22:33] <habby> G'night all. :)
[22:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Rishti_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Rishti_chase
[22:36] <adamgreig> MikeUoN: yea it's a bit of a chore. I recommend quietly building and testing a small working motor first
[22:37] <adamgreig> something small enough to do entirely unobserved
[22:37] <adamgreig> then you can know a lot more about what you need to make a bigger one where you can go through someone to get permission but demonstrate you already pretty well know what you're doing and so on
[22:37] <MikeUoN> unobserved in building, testing, or both/
[22:38] <adamgreig> both
[22:38] <MikeUoN> okay thanks
[22:38] <adamgreig> a small motor - I'm talking like 30cm or 40cm long sort of thing - you could probably do in a quiet garden or field or something..
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[22:38] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/albums/72157654963651405
[22:38] <adamgreig> and it's still like, a huge amount of work and engineering and problems to solve and so on
[22:38] <adamgreig> check photos ^
[22:39] <MikeUoN> yeah those are pretty neat
[22:40] <MikeUoN> ok, i'll see about doing something like that over the summer
[22:40] <adamgreig> don't underestimate the amount of work and logistics in even something "small" like that
[22:41] <MikeUoN> oh for sure
[22:41] <adamgreig> you'll need to find supplies of fuel and gas and do plumbing and remote control the valves and make a test rig that can at least hold things in place, on top of the normal things you might expect
[22:41] <adamgreig> but yea it's a good starting point and you can develop quite useful amounts of thrust
[22:44] <MikeUoN> awesome
[22:45] <MikeUoN> thanks for the pics
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[23:20] <habby> Can anyone tell me the unit of measurement for speed in the telemetry string in habhub, please?
[23:20] <habby> Whatever it is, I have us maxing out travelling at 183 of them
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[23:32] <MarkIreland> MikeUoN: Hi Mike - can I confirm that you are launching Sunday 13th - I know it says that in the title but you mention Saturday in the text of your mailing list entry
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[23:33] <MikeUoN> MarkIreland, sorry that should've said Sunday, arrgh. Is there an edit button?
[23:34] <MikeUoN> But yeah, can confirm I am launching on Sunday 13th not Saturday 12th.
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[23:51] <Laurenceb_> MikeUoN: good luck, any info on your payload?
[23:54] <MikeUoN> This one is just recording environmental data, so I can confidently say my final project will survive x period aloft
[23:54] <MikeUoN> Really just an excuse for the uni to pay for a launch :o)
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[23:55] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 0316 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
[23:56] <MikeUoN> Also testing out a new camera
[23:58] <daey> arent all stations that habhub uses drawn on the map?
[23:58] <daey> there is no station near the IK8SUT-11
[23:59] <lz1dev> aprs igates are not drawn as stations
[00:00] --- Thu Mar 10 2016