highaltitude.log.20160303

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[06:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-6 after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-6
[07:00] WB8ELK (432cd12b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.44.209.43) joined #highaltitude.
[07:01] <WB8ELK> Hello Budapest !!!....looks like my little balloon will make a direct pass over the city. Wish they made a video camera that weighed 1 gram.
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[07:15] <edmoore> it's the Grand Tour WB8ELK
[07:15] <edmoore> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour
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[07:21] <WB8ELK> Yep....wish I could tag along with this one during its grand tour of Europe.
[07:22] <edmoore> you should one day soon
[07:22] <edmoore> ideally to coincide with a UKHAS conference
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[08:06] <WB8ELK> If anyone is in Poland...you can listen for the balloon on 144.340 MHz APRS as well..once a minute transmission. It also transmits on 144.800 APRS channel.
[08:08] <WB8ELK> Looks like it will be crossing almost directly north across Poland on the way to Sweden today.
[08:08] <edmoore> might be worth emailing the ukhas list
[08:08] <edmoore> has a large number of polish hams
[08:08] <SA6BSS-Mike> if it comes my my I turn on my aprs igate and listen
[08:08] <WB8ELK> I don't have the address for the list
[08:09] <edmoore> ukhas@googlegroups.com
[08:09] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[08:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> here is a websdr in Budapest http://pet.no-ip.biz:5050/
[08:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> for 2m
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[08:13] <hb9fdk> wb8elk-6? Whick kind of tracker?
[08:14] <edmoore> aprs
[08:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> hear it loud and clear on that web sdr on 144.340
[08:15] <fsphil> it didn't change to 144.800?
[08:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> it dualr freq
[08:17] <hb9fdk> hi edmoore that's clear :) Are there any details about the hardware? It has a nice battery cycle it seems
[08:18] <edmoore> in the backlog yesterday afternoon WB8ELK posted a couple of photos
[08:18] <edmoore> iirc, atmega328, vcxo pulled around with a dac into a programmable pll to make the fsk
[08:19] <edmoore> lipo battery
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[08:19] <hb9fdk> okay thanks
[08:19] <WB8ELK> It always transmits on 144.340 after the primary APRS transmission which is 144.800 over Europe.
[08:20] <hb9fdk> my lipos often have enough charge overnight but internal resistance gets me in the cold.
[08:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://imgur.com/a/anllR
[08:20] <hb9fdk> wb8elk is that your own design/
[08:21] <hb9fdk> thanks SA6BSS
[08:21] <edmoore> it has his name on the silkscreen bottom-left :)
[08:22] <hb9fdk> yep saw that!
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[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> hmm, on that websdr the 144.340 is verry weak but on 144.8 its booming [0.4] WB8ELK-6>APELK0,HG5PBD-2*:!4744.66N/01914.90EO023/020/A=024128 09 3.86 3.76 -3 7354 121 |"?%7%-!$!*!"!"|
[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> Position, BALLOON, Telemetry devices
[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> N 47 44.6600, E 019 14.9000, 23 MPH, course 23, alt 24128 ft
[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> Seq=121, A1=386, A2=376, A3=3, A4=9, A5=1, D1=1, D2=0, D3=0, D4=0, D5=0, D6=0, D7=0, D8=0
[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> 09 3.86 3.76 -3 7354 121
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[08:24] <WB8ELK> Yes...that's my design. It can also do WSPR mode on HF bands with a different output filter.
[08:24] <WB8ELK> My next flight this weekend will be on 20 meter WSPR mode.
[08:26] <WB8ELK> 09 satellies, solar panel voltage, Lipo battery voltage, temp deg C, altitude meters and sequence number.
[08:28] <R34lB0rg> how does wb8elk look like in a waterfall?
[08:28] <WB8ELK> It puts out about 20 milliwatts.
[08:29] <WB8ELK> using #13 Ernie Ball guitar wire for the 2m dipole.
[08:29] <hb9fdk> W*8ELK: How cool!! I cant wait to see. I have something similar going, but with an STM32. Will you reveal your 2m and 15m output stages, what they are?
[08:29] <fsphil> built-in dac of the stm32 will be handy for that
[08:30] <hb9fdk> oh yes I use both of them...
[08:30] <fsphil> ah cool, why both?
[08:30] <WB8ELK> Just a lowpass pi filter fed directly from the Cypress CY22393 synthesizer. Most people use the Si Labs parts, but I found this Cypress part puts out a bit more power but it is much harder to set the frequency.
[08:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03160000.0302.002_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=160000.0302.002_chase
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[08:31] <WB8ELK> yes...I wouldn't need the parallel DAC chip if I changed from the ATmega328p to an STM part.
[08:31] <hb9fdk> okay yeah my 2 band design simply has a LPF and a piece of wire on the synthesizer as the VHF setup :)
[08:31] <WB8ELK> Good tool for designing lowpass pi filters: http://www.wa4dsy.net/filter/filterdesign.html
[08:33] <hb9fdk> ah that MAX is a DEC? All clear...
[08:33] <hb9fdk> do you reset the PLL for WSPR or do you use DAC + tuning?
[08:34] <WB8ELK> MAX5102A DAC IC
[08:34] <WB8ELK> quicker response with a parallel DAC.
[08:35] <WB8ELK> I use the DAC to adjust the voltage control pin on the TCVCXO
[08:35] <hb9fdk> yep, same here
[08:35] <WB8ELK> To get the WSPR tone spacing.
[08:35] <hb9fdk> it's a CDCE(L)913 in my thing.
[08:35] <WB8ELK> If you use the Si5351 or similar part then you can just set the tones directly.
[08:35] <hb9fdk> those eat a lot of power.
[08:35] <hb9fdk> I was there and back.
[08:36] <WB8ELK> I had a prototype built with the CEL913...good part but I had more experience with the Cypress synthesizer so I kept that part.
[08:36] <hb9fdk> of course, thanks for telling the details.
[08:37] <hb9fdk> you have a scheme to encode altitude etc into wspr?
[08:37] <WB8ELK> Yes....the Si part was more power hungry but a lot easier to select the frequency...main advantage to it...but current drain was key so kept the other synthesizer. You can turn off the unneeded section on the Si5351 part though.
[08:38] <WB8ELK> Yes.....but took awhile to figure it out....I ended up with a modified version of VE3KCL's format. Send regular callsign with grid and power level....encode 1000m altitude increments in the power levels.
[08:38] <hb9fdk> I need to use GPS timebase signal and some fancy STM32 timer/counter features to calibrate the PLL osc when temperature changes...
[08:39] <WB8ELK> then follow that with a callsign that begins with a zero or Q and encode the battery voltage, temperature, satellites and the 5th and 6th letters of a six-digit grid square into a "telemetry" callsign.
[08:39] <WB8ELK> The power level for that transmission sends the fine altitude increments of 60m levels.
[08:39] <hb9fdk> ah okay. I managed to decipher the type 2 and 3 messages, the ones with the hashed callsign and extended locator info. The extended locator is the alt.
[08:39] <hb9fdk> my power level is the batt level, in ilke 5 steps or so
[08:40] <WB8ELK> Then I grab the data from WSPRnet.org with a Python program I wrote which combines the coarse and fine power level altitudes, reformats it and sends it to the APRS server.
[08:41] <hb9fdk> yeah I still miss that part.
[08:41] <WB8ELK> I can email you my spreadsheet...I'd like to see what you are doing....I also have programmed the type 2 and 3 messages with the six-digit grid square but that adds an extra transmission.
[08:41] <hb9fdk> Would love to have that
[08:42] <hb9fdk> soren.kuula@gmail.com
[08:42] <hb9fdk> good work on the Atlantic crossing btw!! I never made it, but okay in Switzerland we are disadvantaged with oceans....
[08:42] <WB8ELK> ok...will email it in a minute. The WSPR transmitter is on the air now and will be for a few days....you can view it on WSPRnet.org under the callsign: WB8ELK on 20m and also on APRS.FI under the call: WB8ELK-7
[08:43] <hb9fdk> thanks I will
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[08:43] <hb9fdk> I had a reception from Florida, 7800 km last time I launched a WSPR :)
[08:43] <hb9fdk> but at altitude it did not work quite so well.
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[08:45] <hb9fdk> Is that a party balloon, like a 36" QT?
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[08:46] <WB8ELK> Yes...a Qualatex 36" Mylar party balloon.
[08:46] <hb9fdk> I fly the same !
[08:48] <hb9fdk> it's good to know that 7500m will work. Some balloon flyers say it is too low and not out of weather hazards etc.
[08:49] <WB8ELK> There is a trick to make it work well....inflate it completely and overpressurize it to 3.0 kPa. If it survives that, remove the helium with no larger than a 3/16" diameter O.D. Straw to get your lift you desire.
[08:50] <WB8ELK> If you use too large a diameter straw it will mess up the internal valve. That's about 4.7 mm or similar OD straw
[08:51] <WB8ELK> It is too low...I got lucky with the weather so far.
[08:52] <WB8ELK> I made a mistake with a small prototype run of my PC boards and they are too thick and 3 grams heavier than my latest batch....so this one was 19.2 grams payload with Lipo and solar panels. 22 grams balloon lift for a free lift of 2.8 grams.
[08:52] <WB8ELK> The new boards will be about 16 grams at liftoff.
[08:52] <hb9fdk> so you stretch the balloons before flight?
[08:52] <fsphil> do you have a dedicated lipo charger or do you control that from your atmega?
[08:52] <WB8ELK> Yes...that makes all the difference it appears.
[08:53] <hb9fdk> I used a small tube also to fine tune the helium fill.
[08:53] <hb9fdk> never a rubber or silicone hose ... it will stick to the flap in the valve :(
[08:53] <WB8ELK> Good question...I went super simple...I use a 4.2 volt linear regulator and the current limit is due to the max capacity of the solar panels so it won't charge too fast...It takes about 4 hours of daylight to completely charge it.
[08:55] <WB8ELK> Once the solar panel voltage goes up to about 5 or 6 volts and the Lipo voltage is 4.18 voltage you'll know it is fully charged.
[08:55] <fsphil> ah so just a regulator
[08:55] <hb9fdk> I have various ways to charge... SPV1040 if it has to be fancy (Im waiting for the SPV1050, all in one chargers and regulators!) and a TPS61120 for cheap trackers. The TPS is cheap, it works off one 0.6V solar but it is not as efficient.
[08:56] <WB8ELK> To be fancy, you'd probably want to use a LiPo charger switching circuit...but I found a 4.2 volt regulator (it was hard to find that part actually) and it works well....just make sure your solar cells can't put out too much current for the battery is all.
[08:56] <fsphil> fancy is MPPT :)
[08:56] <hb9fdk> The simplest charge system I use is a 5S solar, one schottky diode and a piece of wire :)
[08:56] <fsphil> but if you're charging fully in 4 hours in march, you proably don't need mppt
[08:56] <WB8ELK> SPV1040 is a good one...the SPV1050 will be great....but then I'm using PowerFilmSolar flexible panels which are a higher voltage than the monocrystalline cells.
[08:57] <WB8ELK> My solar cells put out 6.2 volts open circuit and about 75 mA each.
[08:57] <fsphil> it's nice not having to worry about cloudy weather limiting output
[08:57] <WB8ELK> I designed this board to be simple and easy to hand solder.
[08:57] <hb9fdk> PowerFilmSolar flexible panels are great. Just cut them to individual strips and the current should be small enough
[08:58] <hb9fdk> ok you can't say that about my boards for sure! They may even be impossible to assemble :)
[08:59] <WB8ELK> This is the ones that I use...one on either side of the board: http://www.amazon.com/PowerFilm-Solar-OEM-Module-MPT4-8-75/dp/B00D97SI64/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456995508&sr=8-1&keywords=mpt+4.8-75
[08:59] <hb9fdk> I once had a battery and a 5S powerfilm connected directly. Up in strong light and low temp. I had like 4.7 volts on the batt :) It never exploded though.
[08:59] <WB8ELK> You can abuse LiPo batteries for awhile...but not good for long life.
[09:00] <hb9fdk> I used the 5 in series ones, without any voltage conversion / regulation. Now I am more into boost converters and the single cell glassy solars.
[09:00] <fsphil> supercaps are a potential, but perhaps still a bit too heavy
[09:00] <hb9fdk> availability question.
[09:00] <daey> and price
[09:01] <WB8ELK> I use a 1.4 mm OD ultra thin brass tube from Albion Metals to support the solar cells and that also serves as my ground return for the cells to the board. The brass tube weighs about 0.9 grams.
[09:01] <hb9fdk> supercaps are fine too but only really as a support / internal resistance limiter I think
[09:02] <hb9fdk> okay I got some 0.5 mm carbon fiber in an RC store & use 0.2mm copper wire
[09:02] <WB8ELK> When I fly a purely solar powered flight I use two 1.0 Farad Supercaps in series and the 3.6 volt PowerFilm cells so as to not exceed 5 volts....the Supercaps weigh about 2 grams total. You have to run 16k Ohm resistors across each supercap.
[09:03] <hb9fdk> haha I let them just balance themselves... is that harmful?
[09:03] <WB8ELK> The Supercaps serve to prevent brief (less than one minute) dropout from a shadow from the PC board or a small cloud.
[09:03] <WB8ELK> not if they don't blow up.
[09:04] <hb9fdk> I tried to abuse one... it just started behave like a Zener diode at 2.8 or so.
[09:04] <WB8ELK> at these low current drains probably not a problem...it just balances the voltage across each cap so as to not exceed 2.5 volts on each cap.
[09:04] <hb9fdk> and seemed to survive that
[09:04] <fsphil> I've not managed to blow one up yet
[09:04] <hb9fdk> Slovaika ahead now
[09:04] <fsphil> not tried very hard
[09:05] <WB8ELK> I tried flying a pure solar mission without the caps and it would drop out and reset enough to be annoying...the Supercaps prevent that.
[09:06] <hb9fdk> of course. Im trying to have power 24h, at least to keep the CPU afloat. Also WSPR/HF bands seem to be best at dusk and dawn up there.
[09:06] <daey> WB8ELK: isnt the balloon mostly above the cloud layer?
[09:06] <hb9fdk> should be!
[09:06] <WB8ELK> BTW...if you are looking at the flight via APRS.FI....you can slide the Google Street View icon over and drop it on the balloon icon and it gives you a split view showing the balloon track at the bottom and the street view directly below the balloon's path...was wild watching it that way while it went through Budapest.
[09:06] <hb9fdk> never had too little power anyway
[09:07] <hb9fdk> haha yeah balloons love capital cities
[09:07] <hb9fdk> I had Budapest too, and Beijing
[09:07] <hb9fdk> right over center
[09:07] <WB8ELK> It was like being on a tour bus through Budapest that cuts straight across the city.
[09:07] <hb9fdk> gng to try later
[09:07] <daey> besides isnt a small lipo battery much more efficient than a cap? ligther, smaller, cheaper?
[09:08] <WB8ELK> It's really fun watching it that way.
[09:08] <fsphil> yes
[09:08] <WB8ELK> My Lipo pack weighs 4.5 grams...my Supercaps weigh 2 grams.
[09:08] <AndyEsse1> morning
[09:08] <hb9fdk> yes. But in the cold they often have too much internal resistance.
[09:08] <fsphil> for a similar capacity they'll be heavier
[09:08] <AndyEsse1> WB8ELK: 4.5grams for a liop pack? nice, what capacity?
[09:08] <WB8ELK> 220 mAh...got them from eBay.
[09:09] <hb9fdk> I was down at 30mAh ...
[09:09] <hb9fdk> in size
[09:09] <hb9fdk> 100 is the largest I use now
[09:09] <AndyEsse1> WB8ELK: ah ok - not bad for that weight
[09:09] <daey> how much do they have left @-30°C?
[09:09] <WB8ELK> they don't like it below -30 deg however....my first two days I got 6 hours after sunset...now that the Mylar has stretched out it is quite a bit higher in -35 deg temps and now I get about 4 hours life on the Lipo at dark.
[09:10] <WB8ELK> I would say they are derated to 80 percent below -30 C
[09:10] <fsphil> should stick a small temp sensor on the side of it
[09:10] <fsphil> see how much the sun heats it up
[09:10] <daey> wow. i dint expect such a precise answer :)
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[09:11] <fsphil> and paint it black :)
[09:11] <WB8ELK> My temp sensor is on the board itself...it warms up about 30 degrees from ambient..sometimes more. At least that's the temp sensor...not sure about the Lipo itself.
[09:12] <WB8ELK> For example...right now it is flying at an altitude that would be about -34 deg C...the temperature sensor on the board is exposed to the outside and it is reading 1.0 deg C.
[09:13] <hb9fdk> is that covered with transparent plastic?
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[09:13] <WB8ELK> Yep...I might try painting it black....but that won't help it at night.
[09:13] <fsphil> yeah, but the battery won't be charging then
[09:14] <fsphil> I might be wrong but I think the worst thing for lipos is trying to charge them below 0c?
[09:14] <WB8ELK> no...just bare board...didn't want to have the weight of the extra plastic...I figured if it was raining hard enough to short out the board...it was raining enough to drop the balloon out of the sky.
[09:15] <Rebounder> WB8ELK: about aprs.fi, it's enough to track it then click "track in street view" in the same window
[09:15] <WB8ELK> Ah...that's a good tip...sure is a fun ride that way.
[09:15] <Rebounder> WB8ELK: it transmits once a minute?
[09:16] <WB8ELK> Yes...once a minute on 144.800, then 10 seconds later on 144.340
[09:17] <Rebounder> WB8ELK: yepp, I do do the predictions holds because I will be able to track it from Sweden then :)
[09:17] <WB8ELK> Probably will drop that rate to once every two minutes in future flights...I'm not giving the uBlox Max7c enough time to achieve lock and it is dropping out every so often.
[09:17] <WB8ELK> It is heading for Sweden....should be there tonight.
[09:18] <daey> why is the balloon not poping like all the others?
[09:18] <WB8ELK> You are right about charging them at low temperatures....but I think the Sun is keeping it around 0 C during the day.
[09:18] <WB8ELK> But I might try painting it black next time.
[09:19] <Rebounder> daey: it's a floter, not up/down flight
[09:20] <fsphil> it will pop eventually
[09:20] <fsphil> or leak
[09:20] <WB8ELK> Nice view of a Hungarian tractor just now on Street View as it approaches Slovakia.
[09:20] <WB8ELK> It has been up since Saturday night.
[09:21] <daey> Rebounder: from my understanding there are two types of floating balloons: A. they are able to withstand the pressure B. open balloons. I assume WB8ELK is one of the first cathegory?
[09:21] <fsphil> A. super pressure, B. zero pressure
[09:22] <Rebounder> daey: right, sorry for a bit "stupid" answer
[09:22] <fsphil> B needs a very large balloon
[09:22] <WB8ELK> It has been flying for 105 hours now.
[09:22] <hb9fdk> and B would keep climbing till gas escapes.. then it will float .. then at evening time it will sink
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[09:23] <WB8ELK> Another thing worthy of mention....I think at 36-inch (90 cm) Mylar party balloon should have a free lift under 3 grams to be successful in addition to pressure testing it before launch.
[09:24] <daey> hb9fdk: the balloon that made it a few times around the earth a few month back was a zero pressure balloon? (forgot its designation)
[09:24] <WB8ELK> Otherwise the daytime solar will cause it to reach its burst pressure if you have too much free lift.
[09:24] <WB8ELK> Probably be able to do 5 grams free lift but that might be pushing it.
[09:24] <fsphil> I'm not sure I understand how pre-stretching works
[09:24] <hb9fdk> I had them apparently over-stretching and crack and leak rapidly if too much gas in them. But they never burst
[09:24] <fsphil> does the solar heating increase the pressure too quickly?
[09:25] <WB8ELK> The Mylar can stretch about 30 percent when it goes superpressure....by pre-stressing it you can see if the balloon has any leaks or problems....it also pre-stretches it somewhat and causes less stress on your first day of flight.
[09:26] <hb9fdk> can you measure the pressure when you do that?
[09:26] <fsphil> do you have a way to control the pressure?
[09:26] <fsphil> heh
[09:26] <WB8ELK> If you look at my altitude chart it has been achieving a higher float altitude each day but today it is about the same so probably has finally achieved as much stretch as it can go.
[09:26] <hb9fdk> Get an 3DR "APM airspeed sensor" and use that as a pressure gauge...
[09:26] <WB8ELK> Yes...I use a digital Manometer I got from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Professional-Manometer-Differential-%C2%B113-79kPa/dp/B00N3PPZZY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456997202&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+manometer
[09:27] <hb9fdk> and what's your reading?
[09:27] <fsphil> my car tire pump has a pressure sensor on it. might try that :)
[09:27] <hb9fdk> haha
[09:27] <daey> 2bar...should work
[09:27] <hb9fdk> my scuba gear too
[09:28] <WB8ELK> it measure directly in kPa, mm Hg or PSI, etc...It was recommende to me to inflate it to 3.0 kPa....I saw where these Mylar 36 inch balloon burst around 5.7 kPa
[09:29] <hb9fdk> that's around 3% of atmospheric pressure
[09:29] <hb9fdk> the 3.0kPa
[09:29] <WB8ELK> that's only about 0.8 psi so that tire inflator probably wouldn't even budge off the pin at that low level :-)
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[09:30] <WB8ELK> Yep...3 percent over pressure is a good way of looking at it.
[09:31] <berryIMU> I came across this chip BerryIMU which has a gyroscope, accelerometer and magnetometer...and I am wondering if it can be used to measure the value of "g" at different altitudes
[09:31] <WB8ELK> Yes...the problem is overpressure due to solar heating.
[09:31] <berryIMU> has anyone done it in the past
[09:31] <hb9fdk> it's 1g everywhere ...
[09:31] <WB8ELK> anything more than about 10 degrees hotter inside the balloon than outside could be a real problem.
[09:31] <hb9fdk> unless you come very, very high
[09:31] <berryIMU> yeah..I thought about that....but wanted to demonstrate it with data
[09:32] <hb9fdk> I measured internal pressure and temp inside a 36" QT in a flight!
[09:32] <hb9fdk> stuffed an MS5611 into it and sealed with glue
[09:32] <AndyEsse1> hb9fdk: I was thinking of doing this
[09:32] <berryIMU> but will it interfere with GPS?
[09:32] <AndyEsse1> worth it?
[09:32] <hb9fdk> the results showed that both are not very dramatic at all
[09:33] <hb9fdk> I need to find them and publish somewhere
[09:33] <AndyEsse1> "News Posts Showing 1 to 10 of 5"
[09:33] <AndyEsse1> sorry, wrong window
[09:34] <WB8ELK> Welcome to Slovakia...just crossed the border on my European grand tour :-)
[09:34] <WB8ELK> Actually saw the border sign on Street View.
[09:35] <WB8ELK> I use the MS5611 on other projects...nice sensor...also does temperature....what did you see for pressure/temperature inside the balloon?
[09:36] <hb9fdk> I need to find that data.
[09:38] <WB8ELK> Please email it to me when you find it...that would sure be interesting.
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[09:38] <WB8ELK> I emailed you the WSPR telemetry spreadsheet..you should have it now.
[09:39] <hb9fdk> did u try my calculator I mailed u back?
[09:39] <hb9fdk> wonder if it gets you the observed values
[09:39] <hb9fdk> works pretty well for me
[09:40] <hb9fdk> 2015-10-26 17:36:45 CET: HB9FDK-3>APSTM1,WIDE2-1,qAR,F6KID-3:>619,c,5,40103,43255,-23.7,-23.7,0,0,0,n 2015-10-26 17:37:51 CET: HB9FDK-3>APSTM1,WIDE2-1,qAR,F6KID-3:>621,n,5,41528,43195,-23.6,-24.0,0,0,0,n
[09:40] <hb9fdk> aaah hmm so at cruising alt I had 41528 Pa outside and 43195 inside
[09:41] <hb9fdk> and about the same temperature inside the balloon as at a sensor dangling off the board on copper wired
[09:41] <hb9fdk> s
[09:42] <hb9fdk> you will have to figure yourself what that cruising alt might have been.....
[09:42] <hb9fdk> AndyEsse1 : Of course, do it, compare results
[09:43] <AndyEsse1> cheers, my only concern (not for my first flight) is if I were to add a cut-down, how do I ensure the cable also gets cut, or at the very least doesn't cause problems :)
[09:44] <AndyEsse1> Bluetooth Temp/Pressure sensors in the balloon :)
[09:44] Nick change: AndyEsse1 -> AndyEsser
[09:44] <fsphil> is weight an issue?
[09:44] <fsphil> could make the pressure sensor wireless
[09:45] Nick change: lz1dev_ -> lz1dev
[09:46] <hb9fdk> weight is always an issue with those small balloons. I just used some 0.11 mm copper wires for power and data and soaked the bundle well in glue where they were supposed to seal
[09:46] <WB8ELK> Just got a nice email from HG5APZ who listened to the balloon as it flew over Budapest.
[09:46] <edmoore> releasing multipole connectors can be a bit of a pain
[09:47] <edmoore> we used 3.5mm stero jacks for uart comms between detaching stages of a balloon drop vehicle
[09:47] <edmoore> but they took a real beating
[09:48] <WB8ELK> Good info on the pressure...looking at your calculator program now.
[09:48] <hb9fdk> edmoore: we once had a huge 3 unit (valve, flight controller and ballaster, all like 10-30ft apart) setup. We used the nRF2401 boards off ebay and that worked gread
[09:48] <hb9fdk> great. Wireless on 2.4GHz
[09:49] <edmoore> wireless is what i'll consider in the future
[09:49] <hb9fdk> you need open the superpressureBalloon.html in a browser
[09:50] <edmoore> but for this application they were all within a very noisy drop-vehicle body with lots of thick aluminium machined parts
[09:50] <edmoore> so not great for wireless
[09:50] <hb9fdk> I can try that along, if you have your gas fill data and tracker mass
[09:50] <hb9fdk> okay
[09:52] <WB8ELK> Very nice calculator.
[09:52] <WB8ELK> Payload mass: 19.20 grams
[09:53] <WB8ELK> Free lift: 2.80 grams
[09:53] <hb9fdk> it's supposed to be correct.. anyway I can't see anything done wrong :)
[09:53] <WB8ELK> so 22 grams balloon lift
[09:55] <hb9fdk> okay with .0666 cu m of inflation I get that free lift
[09:56] <hb9fdk> and cruise alt. is pretty much as it says :)
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[10:11] <WB8ELK> nice...your calculator works well.
[10:16] <WB8ELK> Well...wee hours of the morning here...4 am...so time for bed...thanks all for all the great information.
[10:17] <AndyEsser> night
[10:18] <WB8ELK> Does anyone have SP9UOB's email? Looks like I'll be going over his house soon.
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[10:20] <hb9fdk> no not me
[10:20] <hb9fdk> good night!!
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[10:20] <hb9fdk> I take the watch:)
[10:21] <hb9fdk> SP9UOB did well also
[10:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> t.brol@ssh.gliwice.pl
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[11:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> morning
[11:13] <AndyEsser> o/
[11:13] <fsphil> morn
[11:14] Nick change: gonzo___ -> gonzo_
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[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[14:20] <hosler> good morning
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[14:20] <fsphil> afternoon
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[14:24] <Vaizki> evening
[14:25] <AndyEsser> :(
[14:25] Action: AndyEsser missed out
[14:25] <craag> morning!
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[14:34] <ipswich_school> Hello
[14:37] <AndyEsser> o0o more EMF Camp tickets going on sale this Sunday :)
[14:38] <AndyEsser> afternoon ipswich_school
[14:38] <gonzo_> hello ipswich_school
[14:38] <gonzo_> I didn't realise they were on sale at all yet?
[14:38] <AndyEsser> there was a pre-sale before xmas
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[14:39] <AndyEsser> hey ipswich_school_
[14:39] <ipswich_school_> hi
[14:40] <ipswich_school_> im just wondering if any of you could recomend a cheap but reliable radio reciever
[14:40] <AndyEsser> Define cheap?
[14:41] <ipswich_school> and a good but cheap parachute for a item
[14:41] <ipswich_school_> below 100 pounds
[14:41] <AndyEsser> You can pick up a SDR dongle for between £5-30
[14:42] <ipswich_school_> ok
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[14:42] <the> urr lol
[14:42] <the> fdhget
[14:42] <the> ewt
[14:42] <the> i like trains
[14:42] Nick change: the -> Guest54998
[14:42] <ipswich_school_> whos 'the'?
[14:43] #highaltitude: mode change '+o edmoore' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[14:43] <edmoore> don't worry ipswich_school_
[14:43] <edmoore> also hi
[14:43] <daey> :(
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[14:43] <AndyEsser> balloons you can get from here: http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[14:43] <ipswich_school_> ok thanks
[14:43] <AndyEsser> and parachutes from the same site
[14:43] <edmoore> so I think a good option for you would be to get a cheap 'rtl-sdr' dongle. I will provide links for everything i'm about to say at the end of this paragraph
[14:44] <edmoore> the rtl-sdr dongle is very cheap but a bit 'deaf' and the balloons talk very 'quietly' because they are limited to such low transmission powers and are many many miles awaya, typically
[14:44] <edmoore> so to the rtl-sdr we had the radio version of a sort of tuned hearing aid
[14:45] <edmoore> which blocks out the frequencies other than the one that the balloon transmits on, and amplifies the one that the balloon transmits on
[14:45] <edmoore> one such hearing-aid that is popular here is called the habamp
[14:45] <edmoore> hab-amp
[14:46] <edmoore> finally you have an antenna to pick up the radio waves and put them into the rtl-sdr
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[14:46] <edmoore> so you end up with something like this:
[14:46] <edmoore> pc <--- rtl-sdr <--- hab-amp <--- antenna
[14:46] <edmoore> pc i presume you have
[14:47] <ipswich_school_> of course
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[14:47] <edmoore> so you need an antenna, hamap and rtl-sdr
[14:48] <edmoore> the rtl-sdr is available from lots of places, i have not bought one recently, so hopefully someone else in this room will jump in here with a link to a good supplier of them for uk customers...
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[14:48] <edmoore> the ham-amp is available here: https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=53
[14:48] <ipswich_school_> thanks
[14:48] <edmoore> the antenna - you have lots of different options. A popular kind are 'magmount' which you can put on the roof of your car, and they stick magnetically
[14:48] <AndyEsser> I got my RTL SDR from here: http://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/
[14:49] <AndyEsser> but don't believe it's the cheapest place
[14:49] <gonzo_> nicely put ed. You've said all this before!
[14:49] <edmoore> they are very popular for chasing as you can receive the signal as you drive along
[14:49] <edmoore> if only getting one antenna, i think a magmount is a good choice
[14:50] <edmoore> other options are bigger ones designed to put on, say, a roof, or smaller ones designed for handheld or whatever. But i think the mag-mount would make a good alrounder
[14:50] <ipswich_school_> so will i be able to track the balloon via habhub?
[14:50] <ipswich_school_> if i use these dongles
[14:51] <edmoore> yes
[14:51] <edmoore> exactly so
[14:52] <ipswich_school_> ok thank
[14:52] <edmoore> the dongle can be configured to put its signal into the dl-fldigi program that you might have come across, that we use for tracking
[14:52] <ISASA> would polystyrene be the best material to put a pi in for a high altitude experiment?
[14:52] <ipswich_school_> probably
[14:52] <edmoore> and that program, in conjunction with setting up a payload and flight doc on the habhub server (which we can explain nearer the time) will let you both directly listen to your payload and see your decoded positions appear on the map
[14:53] <Ipswich> Could we just use polysterine, and not hava a parachute
[14:53] <edmoore> ISASA: it's very good, but note that Pis generate a lot of heat themselves so don't need much insulation. infact i believe some have been known to melt polystyrene!
[14:53] <edmoore> Ipswich: no, you need a parachute
[14:53] <ipswich_school_> i dont think that would be wise @ipswich
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[14:53] <ipswich_school_> you need a parachute
[14:54] <edmoore> and usually the NOTAM (NOtice To AirMen) that you apply for from the Civil Aviation AUthority (CAA) will stipulate that your payload must descent under parachute
[14:54] <ISASA> thank you
[14:54] <edmoore> if anyone has a link to a good 70cm magmount for ipswich_school_, please link here
[14:55] <edmoore> again it's been a while since i bought one
[14:55] <fsphil> http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/21033-watson-wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna.html
[14:55] <ipswich_school_> seems like you have a lot of experience edmoore
[14:56] <fsphil> that comes with a BNC plug on the end, and a BNC > SMA adaptor
[14:57] <fsphil> so you might need BNC > what your receiver uses
[14:57] <ISASA> thank you
[14:58] <edmoore> ipswich_school_: i have launched a few over the last decade
[14:59] <edmoore> one sec phone
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[15:00] <USB> hi
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[15:01] <USB> can we drop a pi in polystyrine from 25km
[15:01] <ISASA> http://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/camera/raspberry-pi-camera-board-5mp-1080p-v1.3/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA3t-2BRCKivi-suDY24gBEiQAX1wiXKDINUiAJtNhZE_QhepoUk0IJ6RXln0tjiykrhsFsbkaAnaN8P8HAQ
[15:01] <ISASA> will this camera work
[15:02] <USB> i like the camera
[15:03] <ISASA> and can anyone link us to snesors that will measure temperature, humidity and pressure?
[15:03] <edmoore> USB it must descend under chute
[15:04] <ISASA> @edmoore
[15:05] <R34lB0rg> maybe CAA would waive the parachute requirement for a water landing
[15:06] <Ipswich> but is it goes in the water, how to we get it?
[15:06] <AndyEsser> R34lB0rg: intentionally dumping in the sea, and not having a parachute are not good bits of advice IMHO
[15:07] <USB> yes pretty much
[15:07] <edmoore> still on phone soz
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[15:08] <ISASA> can anyone link to good sensors that will measure temperature, humidity and pressure?
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[15:12] <R34lB0rg> ISASA, https://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/BST-BME280_DS001-10.pdf or google BME280
[15:12] <edmoore> right sorry, back now
[15:12] <ipswich_school_> k
[15:12] <edmoore> annoying when actual dayjob gets in the way of irc
[15:12] <edmoore> happens sometimes
[15:12] <ipswich_school_> ikr
[15:12] <edmoore> ISASA: on the sensor front, yes there are a few
[15:13] <edmoore> sensors usually come in two flavours nowadays
[15:13] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, if you have a floating sealed box that can survive the impact
[15:13] <edmoore> 1) very integrated, very cheap, not *hugely* accurate but maybe still good enough. Designed for mobile phones and so on.
[15:14] <edmoore> 2) individual sensors, need more interfacing, more expensive, usually very accurate
[15:14] <edmoore> designed for industrial controls, lab measurements, testing rocket engines.... that sort of thing
[15:14] <edmoore> you *probably* want to go for (1) if this is a school project or if you're newish to electronics
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[15:15] <ipswich_school_> ok
[15:16] <AndyEsser> R34lB0rg: so now you have a small box, floating in the ocean, that you can't track because the antenna is likely destroyed or in the water, and even if it wasn't, the likelihood of someone having LOS is small - you also now need to find a way to recover it that isn't as simple as walking along a field
[15:16] <AndyEsser> and it sets bad pratice for future flights
[15:16] <ISASA> thank you @edmoore
[15:16] <edmoore> in that case, websites like sparkfun provide sensors which are conveniently already soldered onto 'breakout boards' which make adding them to something like a Pi or an Arduino a lot easier. For example: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13676
[15:16] <AndyEsser> And what happens if the winds change and the payload blows inland? You now have a 500g weight falling from 30,000 onto someone's head
[15:17] <edmoore> there are quite a lot of sensors like that that do temp/pressure/humidity or two of those three, and lots of hobbyist-friendly shops that sell them pre-soldered
[15:18] <edmoore> note that not many of that kind of pressure sensor measure pressure all the way down to the atmospheric pressures than a balloon will see at 40km (because there is little need for such a feature in a mobile phone)
[15:18] <edmoore> if you really care about that, you might have to use a dedicated, slightly more expensive standalone pressure sensor
[15:19] <ipswich_school_> would you say that the pi in the sky kit is good?
[15:19] #highaltitude: mode change '-o edmoore' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[15:19] <edmoore> it is good and it was especially designed for school groups
[15:20] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, the ocean has nothing else than the curvature of earth to obstruct the signal - have an antenna mounted to a balloon on a boat
[15:20] <ipswich_school_> would you recomend a pi A aswell as the pi in the ski
[15:20] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, aircraft data recorders also use radio beacons to be located after a crash
[15:20] <edmoore> if you're someone on-your-own and not in a big rush, we encourage you to have a go at making your own flight computer. If however you are a teacher, or your teacher tell you, that you need to launch something in week 6 of this term (for example), that might not be enough time to learn everything you need if you're starting from scratch
[15:21] <ipswich_school_> ok
[15:21] <edmoore> so PITS is good for that latter case
[15:21] <edmoore> i am not an expert on PITS so i leave it to others to recommend which Pi, but I believe the model A uses less power than the B
[15:21] <edmoore> and so lasts longer on a set of batteries
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[15:22] <ipswich_school_> whats a sensible 'crash' speed?
[15:22] <USB> what is PITS
[15:22] <edmoore> 5m/s
[15:22] <Ipswich> Would an accelerometer be useful?
[15:22] <edmoore> Pi In The Sky
[15:22] <edmoore> PITS^
[15:22] <AndyEsser> R34lB0rg: not on a 10mW ISM TX
[15:22] <edmoore> ipswich_school_: not really *useful* but certainly could be interesting
[15:23] <edmoore> you could see what turbulance is like at high altitudes
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[15:23] <edmoore> ipswich_school_: are you a pupil?
[15:23] <edmoore> or student or whatever the word is
[15:23] <ipswich_school_> sort of
[15:23] <edmoore> have you yet done any algebra? re-arranging equations and so on
[15:23] <USB> yeah we have
[15:24] <edmoore> ok, this is a short (15m) video on how to calculate what sort of parachute you need and how big it should be for a given landing speed and weight of payload https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2egYw8kd3s
[15:24] <ipswich_school_> yes
[15:25] <edmoore> hopefully the maths is not too heavy in it, feel free to ask any questions here if you don't follow any of it
[15:28] <Ian_> ipswich_school a good source of dongle for SDR and cable adaptors. First item for the dongle and near the bottom for MCX adaptor etc. Recommended source!
[15:28] <Ian_> http://www.cosycave.co.uk/category.php?id_category=61
[15:28] <Ian_> ^ ^
[15:28] <ipswich_school_> thx
[15:29] <R34lB0rg> also https://store.uputronics.com/
[15:31] <ISASA> how can we predict where the balloon is going to land?
[15:31] <edmoore> we have written a bit of software for you!
[15:31] <edmoore> predict.habhub.org
[15:31] <gonzo_> R34lB0rg, AndyEsser: I suspect that even if a payload is designed to land (with a chute) and float and still have a functioning antenna.... Then the antenna height is going to be very low. Even with a tall rx antenna, it won't take much swell for any signal you get to be aobsured from line of sight, so you will hear snippets of signal at best. Could be difficult to get a packet through
[15:32] <edmoore> ISASA: in that website, you can see that you pick a launch position, an ascent rate, a burst altitude, and a descent-rate. And a launch time (up for 1 week into the future). With those pieces of information, the software can simulate a flight through the weather forcast data
[15:32] <edmoore> and tell you where it should land
[15:32] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: was kind of my point
[15:33] <gonzo_> AndyEsser, yep, was agreeing, but trying not to get in the way of ed's assist
[15:33] <daey> do cheap light balloon pressure valves exist that keep the pressure constant?
[15:34] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: same - ordinarily I'd have stayed quiet - but I hate misinformation
[15:34] <gonzo_> the pressure in the balloon will be pretty much the same as atmosphereic foir the height, till you reach the elastoic limit of the balloon
[15:35] <gonzo_> AndyEsser, don't we all
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[15:35] <Ian_> ipswitch_school_ : top tip for group conversations, that you all have a common ipswitch username so that others can identify with all members of the group easily :)
[15:35] <Ian_> Common prefaced with ipswitch ^^
[15:35] <Ipswich> k
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[15:35] <Ian_> :)
[15:35] <Ian_> It's a bit like wearing a blazer badge
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[15:36] <gonzo_> do mant schools use blszers these days?
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[15:37] <fsphil> still very common in NI. I hated it
[15:37] <AndyEsser> I used to have shorts and knee high socks...
[15:37] <gonzo_> seems to be gaining in popularity
[15:37] <fsphil> it was the worst part of the summer holdays, having to get a new uniform
[15:38] <gonzo_> AndyEsser i still do, but that's a private thing
[15:38] <Ian_> :)
[15:38] <ipswich_school_> :P
[15:38] <gonzo_> when they get a new head, they always seem to chnage the uniform
[15:39] <AndyEsser> it appears that when they went co-ed the got rid of the shorts, as all the photos I can find have the boys in trousers
[15:39] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I was at a private school :)
[15:39] <Ian_> The conversation is drifting
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[15:39] Action: AndyEsser is suddenly concerned if someone checks his google history...
[15:39] <IpswichSchool> Hello
[15:39] <AndyEsser> Ian_: apologies
[15:40] <gonzo_> sinking I think
[15:40] <edmoore> hi IpswichSchool
[15:40] <Ian_> Call them legs?
[15:41] <Ian_> So, antenna, HAB amp, SDR, parachute and suppliers/sources for all those sorted.
[15:42] <edmoore> and that video, if it's not too mathsy, to calculate what size of parachute you need
[15:43] <Ian_> www.habhub.org is jumping off place for source of much goodness. Sorry forgot that Ed
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[15:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03YL3GBC-9_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=YL3GBC-9_chase
[15:46] <edmoore> ipswich_school_ / IpswichSchool / Ipswich : a lot of this will probably feel like being hit by a brick wall of new ideas and information
[15:46] <edmoore> my advice is: Don't Panic!
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[15:47] <edmoore> a hab project is quite easy to break down into little chunks and work through methodically
[15:47] <ipswich_school_> dont worry ed i've been trying to do this for a long time
[15:47] <edmoore> and we here can help with making sure you haven't missed anything
[15:47] <hosler> im a HAB noob too
[15:47] <ipswich_school_> but thanks for the help edmoore
[15:48] <hosler> my SDR arrives today. gonna get to play with it
[15:48] <Ian_> As well ad edmoore 's excellent video, here are another couple of UKHAS recommended sources, more than enough to divide up between a LARGE group of readers
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[15:48] <edmoore> the ukhas wiki is very thorough and very difficult to navigate
[15:48] <edmoore> an annoying combination
[15:48] <Ian_> ^^ http://ava.upuaut.net/ http://www.daveakerman.com/ Rich veins of information, but probably too much for the moment
[15:48] <edmoore> it's a good idea to just let yourself get lossed in it for an hour or two, clicking around
[15:49] <edmoore> but searching it with google is helpful
[15:49] <ipswich_school_> i've seen dave akemans one
[15:49] <ipswich_school_> its pretty detailed
[15:49] <Ian_> If you don't get lost in there, you aren't trying . . .
[15:49] <edmoore> for example, google then shows you all the stuff it can find about antennas on the ukhas wiki
[15:49] <edmoore> easier than trying to find it from the wiki front page
[15:50] <edmoore> the '!google' thing just tells zeusbot (a robot) to search google with the search terms you put between '+' signs
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[15:51] <edmoore> typo sorry
[15:51] <IpswichSchool> Bassically, we are sending a Pi into space, take pictures, drop and parachute safely to the ground
[15:51] <R34lB0rg> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=antenna+site:ukhas.org.uk
[15:51] <edmoore> you've found the right place
[15:53] <ipswich_school_> the other ipswich schools are part of the group being led by me
[15:53] <IpswichSchool> Ipswich_school_ and ISASA is part of our team
[15:53] <ipswich_school_> so dont worry if they say something stupid
[15:53] <IpswichSchool> Im in charge
[15:53] <AndyEsser> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/scanse/sweep-scanning-lidar?ref=project_tweet
[15:53] <edmoore> thank you for clearing up that you are both in charge :)
[15:54] <AndyEsser> Unrelated to current topic - but may be of interest to others in here
[15:54] <edmoore> so I think you want to get a PITS
[15:54] <ipswich_school_> i can see that we seem like little children
[15:54] <ipswich_school_> im sorry for that
[15:54] <edmoore> and you want to get the ground-based receiver chain that i described above
[15:55] <edmoore> i tend to try and explain things from fairly simple principles and work up, that might sound a bit patronising though sometimes, but I don't intend for that
[15:55] <edmoore> I just assume not much knowledge and build from there
[15:55] <ipswich_school_> ok thanks for all the help
[15:55] <IpswichSchool> Has anybody got the Pi 3 and if so, is it good?
[15:55] <edmoore> yes i have
[15:55] <edmoore> it's good for somerthing
[15:55] <edmoore> things
[15:56] <edmoore> whoops
[15:56] <edmoore> but it's worse for hab probably
[15:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> A bit current hungray for HAB flights ?
[15:56] <edmoore> it's much faster but at the cost of much more power
[15:56] <edmoore> the pi is already 100x faster than is necessary for a hab
[15:56] <IpswichSchool> Thank you edmoore
[15:56] <edmoore> so the extra speed is of almost no use here, but it uses way more power and runs hotter
[15:56] <edmoore> so I think you'd be better off with a pi 2
[15:57] <IpswichSchool> That is what I have
[15:57] <edmoore> you're all set then i think
[15:57] <IpswichSchool> edmoore have you ever gone to the CamJam in Cambridge
[15:57] <edmoore> I haven't
[15:58] <edmoore> the pi has excited since i left cambridge
[15:58] <edmoore> i did help start cusf.co.uk though
[15:58] <fsphil> just got a pi 3 today, will probably try and use it for general sdr stuffs
[15:59] <AndyEsser> fsphil: dump it up a mountain somewhere?
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[15:59] <AndyEsser> fsphil: wonder if we could get a LOS link between a mountain top near me and one near you? :P
[16:01] <edmoore> IpswichSchool: why do you ask?
[16:01] <fsphil> hah, doubt it. this will tell you: http://www.heywhatsthat.com/
[16:01] <R34lB0rg> a pi 1 is probably better suited for hab - pi 2 already uses much more power
[16:02] <AndyEsser> fsphil: that website gave me cancer
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[16:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BENNY_1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BENNY_1
[16:12] <AndyEsser> My batteries should arrive tomorrow :)
[16:12] <R34lB0rg> got GY91 module yesterday
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[16:13] <ipswich_school_> gtg thanks for all the help
[16:13] <ipswich_school_> bye
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[16:16] <edmoore> no more spartacuses
[16:17] <AndyEsser> ?
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[16:21] <fsphil> AndyEsser: yeah it's not pretty, but really handy sometimes
[16:21] <fsphil> /nick ipswitch :)
[16:28] <miek> R34lB0rg: have you ever tested your plan for aiming to land a payload in the sea?
[16:28] <fsphil> you need a plan to do that? :)
[16:34] <edmoore> proper prediction prevents piss-poor placement
[16:34] <AndyEsser> fsphil: couldn't work out how to set both start and end - the drop down list was unhelpful
[16:34] <AndyEsser> edmoore: I like it
[16:35] <AndyEsser> nice habification of the usual 6-P's
[16:36] <Rebounder> hi all
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[16:55] <fsphil> AndyEsser: you have to click on "new panorama", set the location and hit Submit. Ignore the advert for food and come back in two minutes
[16:58] <AndyEsser> bleh
[16:58] <AndyEsser> effort
[16:58] <AndyEsser> :P
[16:59] <edmoore> speaking of
[16:59] <edmoore> nearly 5
[16:59] <fsphil> I have to wait a whole 15 minutes more
[17:00] <fsphil> the sound of rain is not encouraging
[17:00] <AndyEsser> I still have 10 mins-ish to make up for when I had to leave early the other day to prevent The Great Kitchen Flood Of 2016
[17:00] <AndyEsser> and I was late in this morning
[17:00] <AndyEsser> so about 15 mins for me as well
[17:01] <edmoore> they track you to the minute?
[17:02] <AndyEsser> nah, but I have to be careful about being too fluid with my time (despite my boss being fine with it - he's only my boss on paper)
[17:02] <fsphil> oh wow it sounds horrific outside
[17:02] <AndyEsser> there are factory people and stuff that are tracked to the minute who get shitty if they see us office types being too fluid
[17:03] <AndyEsser> because they don't really seem to have the mental capacity to understand differences between hourly waged pay and salaries
[17:03] <AndyEsser> they don't see it when I'm here until 7pm or on the weekends
[17:03] <AndyEsser> they just see me rock up late
[17:03] <edmoore> i'm not sure i'd manage well on minutes tracked
[17:04] <edmoore> i can be an hour late in cos i had a good idea on the loo and decided to stay there while thinking it through
[17:04] <AndyEsser> haha
[17:04] <AndyEsser> I would much rather just manage my own time - as long as projects are delivered on agreed dates, then who cares when I'm in or out
[17:04] <edmoore> exactly
[17:05] <edmoore> i like the thought of not being able to have ideas about work outside office hours
[17:05] <AndyEsser> lunch is a faff as well
[17:05] <AndyEsser> it's a massive context switch which means if I had a productive morning, I'll likely do basically no work in the afternoon
[17:05] <AndyEsser> but trying to take lunch at different times causes similar issues
[17:05] <fsphil> the annoying thing about being in the office is having to spend an hour fixing someones pesky spreadsheet instead of working on the big project with the deadline in a few days
[17:05] <AndyEsser> fsphil: ha
[17:05] <AndyEsser> are you watching me?!
[17:05] <fsphil> haha. that's been my day today
[17:05] <AndyEsser> let me guess
[17:05] <AndyEsser> Formulae not working?
[17:06] <AndyEsser> Seemingly random?
[17:06] <fsphil> they moved stuff, broke other stuff
[17:06] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[17:06] <fsphil> then spent a while complaining about windows explorer
[17:06] <AndyEsser> we had a windows update make Excel be flakey as hell - spreadsheets broke, sometimes it'd work sometimes wouldn't
[17:06] <AndyEsser> different users or PC's would get different results etc
[17:07] <fsphil> one thing that happens a lot in excel is people minimising their worksheet, so every time they open it they get a blank screen
[17:07] <AndyEsser> heh
[17:07] <fsphil> no idea how they're doing it
[17:07] <AndyEsser> yea
[17:07] <AndyEsser> I hate users
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[17:07] <edmoore> an apache literally just rumbled over at 100ft
[17:07] <edmoore> shook my coffee
[17:07] <AndyEsser> nice
[17:07] <AndyEsser> didn't spill any though, right?
[17:07] <fsphil> haven't seen a helicopter up close in ages!
[17:07] <AndyEsser> I still want to get my Helicopter PPL sometime
[17:08] <fsphil> not a fan of them. give me two fixed wings any day
[17:08] <fsphil> (pun not intended)
[17:08] <AndyEsser> I've flown both tiny fixed wing aircraft and heli's
[17:08] <AndyEsser> the fixed wing didn't sit right with me and always made me feel ill
[17:08] <edmoore> all i want for christmas is my two fixed wings
[17:08] <AndyEsser> but the helis didn't - and I prefer the control of a heli
[17:08] <edmoore> i'd have thought a fixed wing is completely intuitive
[17:09] <fsphil> only thing I found odd was the crosswinds, and that we where flying in a slightly different direction to where the plane was pointing
[17:09] <AndyEsser> heh
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[17:10] <fsphil> my one and only lesson. I should do more, it was fun
[17:10] <AndyEsser> tbf - I was... 14 maybe when I had the fixed wing lesson
[17:10] <AndyEsser> and 16/17 when I did the Heli, so maybe it was an age thing as well
[17:11] <fsphil> one of the managers here did a helicopter lesson. decided never to do it agian :)
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[17:11] <fsphil> from the way he described it the controls are very sensitive
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[17:13] <AndyEsser> fsphil: the best bit is learning to fly a helicopter and then sitting in a Chinook where the collective is the other way around :)
[17:13] <AndyEsser> (up for less power, down for more)
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[18:04] <fsphil> I saw a Chinook when I was young, and noticed something hanging below it. took a moment to realise it was a truck. was a bit of a whoa moment when I realised the scale of it
[18:05] <fsphil> imagine sitting in the driver seat of that :)
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[18:10] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:10] <Lunar_Lander> we looked at the balloon today
[18:11] <Lunar_Lander> looks like all the rotation on the way up caused the line to twist so much that it all got caught in one small loop
[18:11] <Lunar_Lander> looked like the line rushed up to the loop on cutdown and then was just stuck there
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[18:40] <Rebounder> WB8ELK-6 frozen?
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[20:14] <Ian_> Lunar_Lander, was the train cord of the braided type?
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> no, smooth
[20:16] <Ian_> I seem to think that most HAB video has the package rotating clockwise, left to right as seen in the video
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> no wait
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> stupid me
[20:17] <Ian_> Ah, OK, just wondered. Sounds like left hand smooth . . . :)
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> just checked steve's website and it says braided
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> we have some cord from a very old brown balloon as well and that is made of strands wound around each other
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> I thought you meant that
[20:18] <Ian_> OK, you see where I was going. the wound strands would impart rotation, but I think most everyone uses a braided cord. So how to influence the balloon to rotate the other way
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> saw people attaching "flaps" to the payload but they'd stop working when air density drops too low for friction to do something
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> but on the other hand, flight becomes smoother with increasing altitude
[20:24] <Ian_> Is it the Bernoulli effect that causes the rotation. I assume that someone has looked at the reasons for rotation and what causes it?
[20:25] <Ian_> Balloon rotates? Package rotates? if we discount the cord being 'polarised', then what are the effects?
[20:25] <Ian_> Rotation is accepted, what determines the direction?
[20:26] Nick change: Randomskk -> adamgreig
[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> good question
[20:27] <Ian_> Balloon and package tend to rotate the same way or not, I wonder? I think so too.
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[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:28] <Ian_> Maybe I need a vertical stripe on a balloon and observe from the ground. I think that I have just found my HAB mission in life :)
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> on a long flight train I could imagine that the balloon maybe hits another wind direction and speed layer while the payload lags behind
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[20:29] <Ian_> Must run this past Ed tomorrow, he is bound to have noticed it!
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[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:34] <Ian_> Mr Google is getting it tonight!
[20:38] <habby> Quick Q. Thinking of attaching fishing spinners onto the nylon between parachute and payload. Good idea?
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> not a bad idea
[20:40] <Ian_> Mixed thoughts. it has been used to stop twisting in the train cord, but also potentially introduces a point of failure
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> how good it is is an interesting question
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> fishing spinners aren't going to fail - they're really quite simple indeed and especially unloaded
[20:41] <Ian_> If you do use a spinner, use a very good quality one seems to be the best advice.
[20:41] <habby> Thanks
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[21:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF7RCV-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF7RCV-11
[22:10] <hosler> so my SDR seems to have an echo
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[22:13] <daveake> Unlikely. Is this into speakers? If so do you have the microphone input set as "monitor" ?
[22:13] <hosler> ive got headphones
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[22:14] <daveake> Make sure you have all effects switched off on the sound output device
[22:18] <hosler> i do
[22:21] <daveake> And you're getting an echo on top of whatever you're listening to? Or some other effect?
[22:21] <hosler> i dunno im still figuring this out
[22:22] <daveake> Or is it stopping and starting? For something like that I'd suspect your USB so maybe try a different port.
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[22:28] <hosler> every thing i find that isnt a radio station is just silence
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[22:29] <hosler> lul now i hear beeps
[22:29] <daveake> Perfectly normal; if your SDR S/W is set to WFM, then if it's not an FM signal then you won't get audio out of it
[22:30] <hosler> im on narrow fm now
[22:31] <daveake> NFM is for amateur FM transmissions; WFM for commercial. You need to match SDR setting to the signal
[22:31] <hosler> right
[22:32] <daveake> So is there an actual problem?
[22:32] <hosler> hah i dont know
[22:32] <hosler> i just wanna hear someone talk
[22:32] <daveake> WFM and R4 then
[22:33] <hosler> i gotta get back to work. ill play wiht this when i get home
[22:33] <daveake> ah, so not UK, so just find a suitable radio signal
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[22:34] <hosler> i tried finding police frequency
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[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[23:18] <mattbrejza> woo, sending 22 GPS positions in 118 bytes
[23:19] <fsphil> just storing differences?
[23:20] <mattbrejza> yea
[23:20] <mattbrejza> msgpack is nice and efficent with small integers
[23:21] <fsphil> I'm tinkering with using the jpeg-style huffman coding for integers in my data logger, seems to be working quite well
[23:21] <fsphil> a lot more ackward than msgpack though
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[23:22] <fsphil> and a lot of my data never changes so RLE helps at lot. can't really do that on gps
[23:22] <mattbrejza> yea
[23:22] <mattbrejza> next step is getting habitat to accept all these positions lol....
[23:23] <mattbrejza> ill probably just get the reciever to add the msgpack stuff as a base64 encoded string onto a ukhasnet string that gets uploaded to habitat
[23:23] <mattbrejza> then get craag 's habmap to decode and display
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[00:00] --- Fri Mar 4 2016