highaltitude.log.20160301

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[00:00] <bradfirj> (the answer is now yes :P)
[00:00] <hosler> where be that stream
[00:00] <bradfirj> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ccag0LbXIAAgQX2.jpg:large
[00:00] <bradfirj> It's 2347 UTC today
[00:00] <bradfirj> so in nearly 23hrs time
[00:01] <hosler> oh
[00:01] <hosler> so tomorrow
[00:01] <bradfirj> Well for those of us working UTC and being pedantic, today
[00:01] <bradfirj> But yep
[00:01] <hosler> word
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[00:11] <Ian_> Hmmm, picked up on the ABS box, but missed the toolbox. Is this for the "vehicle body"?
[00:12] <Ian_> Normal practice is to use a polystyrene box as it is less dense and less likely to cause damage if it lands on someone or their property.
[00:13] <Ian_> A tool box is almost certainly to be filled with a carbon black and be opaque to RF. It will also probably be a bit large for the recommended stick it in the microwave oven test :)
[00:14] <Ian_> The test is good, but not for something the size of a toolbox, unless you have a mega industrial sized microwave in the kitchen . . .
[00:16] <Ian_> Rockblock is very expensive, I presume that youare you intending to do an initial up/down flight?
[00:17] <Ian_> What part of the world are you from, UK?
[00:17] <Ian_> US?
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[00:22] <Ian_> UK use UKHAS Radiometrix NTX2B-FA 434MHz UHF 10mW tx. US need Ham Licence use APRS Radiometrix HX1 144.800MHz (or appropriate) 300mW VHF tx.
[00:23] <Ian_> Ask here for txr advice or recommended source.
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[07:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[08:38] <fsphil> morning #ha
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[08:57] <AndyEsser> morning
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[09:02] <Vaizki> morning morning.. here the sun is over the fore yard so time for another espresso
[09:02] <Vaizki> umm foreyeard.. not fore yard :D
[09:03] <Vaizki> dammit. coffee. now.
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[09:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03tommy_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=tommy_chase
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[10:13] <WillDWork> hey cuddykid_work - how's it going?
[10:13] <cuddykid_work> morning WillDWork :)
[10:17] Nick change: danielsaul_alt -> danielsaul
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[10:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03QM-Pi-K12_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=QM-Pi-K12_chase
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[11:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03QM-SkyPi-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=QM-SkyPi-2
[11:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03QM-SkyPi-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=QM-SkyPi-1
[11:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[11:37] <blog> Well, there is a little bit of sun, so maybe it's over the yard arm, and the coffee is close by the fore arm
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[13:11] <pb0ahx> !flights
[13:11] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03SP9UOB pico 22- 432.210 MHz CTSTIA 32/1000 10(c464)
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[14:15] <Ben-AstroSoc> afternoon
[14:16] <AndyEsser> o/
[14:16] <fsphil> ahoy
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[14:22] <AndyEsser> fsphil: ahoy? get your boat speak outta here :P
[14:22] <fsphil> aye matie
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[14:24] <gonzo___> we get the drift
[14:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> sorting out my notam app
[14:28] <AndyEsser> \o/
[14:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> gonna apply for the launch site outside my house and maybe scout out a secondary site south of birmingham so the airport doesnt screw us
[14:28] <fsphil> launching from home is very handy
[14:28] <fsphil> good internet (usually), easy to pack up and not a problem if you've forgotten something
[14:29] <AndyEsser> the good internet is the bit I'm missing from my launchsite :(
[14:29] <mattbrejza> if you want to launch during the day i wouldnt bother asking for a location in the airport CTA though
[14:29] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah issue wiht my house is it's almost directly west of Birmingham airport
[14:29] <fsphil> ah
[14:29] <fsphil> yeah that'll probably not happen at sensible hours
[14:29] <AndyEsser> Launch at 4am for a sunrise photo :)
[14:29] <mattbrejza> and does the runway run east-west?
[14:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm 21km directly west from the airport
[14:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> they run NE/SW and vice versa
[14:30] <gonzo___> but being at home makes restrictive hours more palletable
[14:30] <mattbrejza> oh you might be alright then
[14:31] <mattbrejza> halesowen?
[14:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[14:33] <mattbrejza> you might get screwed over by 'CTA-5'
[14:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah i'm aware we're in the airspace
[14:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> gonna apply and see what they say
[14:34] <mattbrejza> if it wasnt for that odd bit youd be fine
[14:39] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'lll dig an airspace map out and look for a suitable secondary site
[14:39] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm not sure my hourly predictor has set up yet :/
[14:40] <edmoore> ping on habhub
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[14:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> what would oyu say is a good max dimension these things normally reach when strung up
[14:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> 5m?
[14:46] <mattbrejza> even if you do get permission itll be a not east one, so going more west will help
[14:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[14:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah i'm not expecting ot be able to launch East from this site
[14:47] <AndyEsser> Ben-AstroSoc: the entire thing?
[14:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> AndyEsser: yeah
[14:47] <AndyEsser> Depending on your balloon, it could be 9-10m before bursting (just the balloon)
[14:47] <AndyEsser> let alone train and paylods
[14:47] <AndyEsser> payloads*
[14:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> just wondering what sorta number to put in the max balloon dimension box :p
[14:48] <AndyEsser> 1,000,000 mm
[14:48] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:48] <fsphil> we tend to just specify diameter at launch
[14:48] <fsphil> DM's never questioned it so far
[14:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> i mean, i've put 10m down
[14:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> since it'll porbably end up that long at launch
[14:50] <Ben-AstroSoc> no radar reflector
[14:51] <fsphil> all mine have beem: "Maximum dimension of balloon: 1.5m at launch, payload suspended 10m below"
[14:51] <Ben-AstroSoc> what do you guys tend to specify 'instrumentation on or suspended from balloon'?
[14:51] <Ben-AstroSoc> a'ight, cool
[14:52] <fsphil> camera, radio tracker
[14:52] <fsphil> sample of blood
[14:52] <fsphil> (I wonder if they mentioned that in their application?)
[14:54] <Ben-AstroSoc> ok i think i've filled this in properly
[14:54] <Ben-AstroSoc> will scan and send when i get home
[14:55] <AndyEsser> Sample of Blood... and then landing it in RAF Lakenheath
[14:55] <AndyEsser> not having a great time recently, are they
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[14:59] <Ben-AstroSoc> been pointed out that my ground plain clearance isn't high enough
[14:59] <Ben-AstroSoc> rip gotta redraw some stuff
[15:05] <Ben-AstroSoc> AndyEsser: on professionally etched stuff what sorta clearance can you get down to before it starts getting messy? originally drew it at 10th in but technician recommended 20th
[15:07] <AndyEsser> err
[15:07] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[15:07] <AndyEsser> wrong person to ask I'm afraid ;)
[15:07] <AndyEsser> haven't professionally etched anything myself yet
[15:07] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah
[15:07] <Ben-AstroSoc> #
[15:07] <mattbrejza> im not sure some bloke at your uni doing it counts as professionally etched
[15:07] <Ben-AstroSoc> no, it doesn'tm which is why he tells us to use higher clearance
[15:08] <Ben-AstroSoc> but we'r elooking at getting nit done propelry so we have plated vias
[15:08] <mattbrejza> generic china places will do 8/8 without issue
[15:09] <mattbrejza> ive recently put some 6/6 though dirtypcbs
[15:09] <mattbrejza> (6/6 means 6mil spacing, 6mil thickness)
[15:09] <AndyEsser> mattbrejza: as in, traces were 6mil thick, with 6 mil between them?
[15:10] <mattbrejza> yea
[15:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> that sounds really big
[15:10] <mattbrejza> 1mil = 0.001"
[15:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> oh
[15:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> not 1mm :p
[15:10] <mattbrejza> lol no :P
[15:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> presumably 10th is 10mil then?
[15:11] <AndyEsser> 6mil does sound big to me..
[15:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> do dirtypcb do plated vias btw?
[15:11] <AndyEsser> althoug I've been staring at a beautifully engineered motherboard all day, so perhaps I have delusions :P
[15:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> if i can get away with 10th clearance it saves me redrawing a bunch of stuff
[15:12] <mattbrejza> yea
[15:12] <mattbrejza> (re: plating)
[15:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> nice
[15:13] <Ben-AstroSoc> last thing - are all holes plated or just vias - i've got some layer changes on pins currently
[15:14] <mattbrejza> pads for throughpole are plated
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[15:16] <Ben-AstroSoc> a'ight
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[15:19] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://i.imgur.com/EwiJzKv.png
[15:19] <Ben-AstroSoc> not entirely happy with the layout but at lesat it's workable
[15:21] <AndyEsser> Ben-AstroSoc: not doing SMD?
[15:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> not for this board
[15:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> next iteration maybe
[15:22] <AndyEsser> seems a bit rubbish to outsource to china for non-SMD/through hole stuff
[15:22] <AndyEsser> :P
[15:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> mkes my life easier compared to trying to etch this with uni specifications
[15:24] <AndyEsser> no GPS/Radio on this board?
[15:24] <AndyEsser> do you have those on a breakout?
[15:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> teh radio are the 3+4pins on the bottom left
[15:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> the gps module will be mounted elsewhere and plugged in
[15:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> seeing as you want it as far away from other electronics as possible right?
[15:26] <AndyEsser> gotcha
[15:26] <AndyEsser> what's U3?
[15:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> going by my experience with gps receivers on wquads
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> u3 is an LD1117
[15:27] <AndyEsser> power reg?
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> ye
[15:27] <AndyEsser> J6 is your input from battery?
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> yes
[15:27] <AndyEsser> one thing I will say - you have an alarming lack of decoupling caps
[15:27] <AndyEsser> U2 is an AVR328 of some variety?
[15:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> aren't the 2 caps off the power supply the equivalent?
[15:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> see c2
[15:28] <AndyEsser> personally (not an expert) I'd smooth directly after the power reg as well
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[15:28] <AndyEsser> and then between the +v and 0v pins on anything that isn't a passive
[15:28] <AndyEsser> so the NTX2b for eg
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[15:29] <AndyEsser> the AREF pin probably shouldn't be left floating on the AVR either
[15:29] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[15:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> isn't that just for supplying a separate reference voltage?
[15:30] <AndyEsser> also, with the buzzer - would it not make more sense to have that on a jumper that you can plug in/out and reduce the board size?
[15:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> for adcs etc
[15:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> @buzzer possibly yeah, am tinkering wiht it at the moment
[15:31] <AndyEsser> gotcha
[15:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> want to try and shift the power stuff elsewhere and move most of it to the left
[15:31] <AndyEsser> wrt AREF - yes, it's an external reference voltage for the ADC, I guess to me it just doesn't feel right to leave stuff just floating when it could affect logic (even if I'm not going to use those inputs, etc)
[15:31] <mattbrejza> i think youre supposed to decouple aref though
[15:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0ZTV-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0ZTV-4
[15:32] <AndyEsser> Yea, mattbrejza - decouple it to ground via a cap
[15:32] <AndyEsser> even if not using it
[15:32] Action: AndyEsser tries to find page oin the datasheet
[15:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> oki
[15:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> so decouple aref, smooth input lines on active components
[15:32] <AndyEsser> how long will the cable to the GPS be?
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> er
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> 3"-12"
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> depending on where we mount it
[15:33] <AndyEsser> inches?!
[15:33] <AndyEsser> what cable are you using?
[15:34] <Ben-AstroSoc> not got htat far
[15:34] <AndyEsser> if you're going to go with a 12" cable, I'd highly highly recommend smoothing caps as close to the header for the GPS as possible then
[15:34] <AndyEsser> the GPS needs a rock-steady VCC during acquisition
[15:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[15:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> does the max m8q from upu have reg on it already?
[15:35] <craag> If the cable to the gps is to a hab supplies breakout, you'll be fine
[15:35] <Upu> depends which one you got Ben-AstroSoc
[15:35] <craag> I've used about 10 feet of 3.3V + UART before ;)
[15:35] <SIbot> In real units: 10 ft = 3.05 m
[15:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah it's to http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51 that
[15:36] <Upu> the "5V Arduino" one has a regulator on it
[15:36] <AndyEsser> I have a hab supplies breakout that refused to work after more than about 50cm cabling
[15:36] <Upu> no thats the 3V one with no regulator on it
[15:37] <Ben-AstroSoc> so will definitely need smoothing near the headers then
[15:37] <craag> Hmm interesting - I was using solid core cat5 AndyEsser
[15:37] <AndyEsser> craag: mine was cat5e as well :)
[15:37] <craag> heh ok
[15:37] <AndyEsser> imagine it was either voltage drop, or just too much noise
[15:37] <craag> no idea then
[15:37] <AndyEsser> didn't test it
[15:37] <AndyEsser> threw a paddy and made my own 6" runs of twisted pair with my drill :)
[15:38] <AndyEsser> that seems to work for testing on my breadboard
[15:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> 10uF normally ok to smooth it over?
[15:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> bothf or aref + active components
[15:38] <craag> in fact the same board is currently in the websdr shed, on the end of ~5 feet of cat5e
[15:38] <SIbot> In real units: 5 ft = 1.52 m
[15:38] <craag> runs ntp.suws.org.uk
[15:38] <AndyEsser> nice
[15:39] <AndyEsser> Ben-AstroSoc: that's a good question - I've still yet to find out what the 'formula' is or whatever to figure that out
[15:39] <AndyEsser> it seems people just have a favoured capacitance for decoupling caps
[15:39] <Ben-AstroSoc> datasheet has just infomred me that AVcc has to be connected to Vcc, oops
[15:39] <AndyEsser> I've seen 10uF, 0.1uF, 1uF
[15:40] <Ben-AstroSoc> havent spotted anything about aref tho
[15:40] <AndyEsser> both Vcc and AVcc need to be connected
[15:40] <AndyEsser> and all grounds
[15:40] <R34lB0rg> i have 4700µf next to me
[15:40] <Ben-AstroSoc> well grounds are on the plane so that's ok
[15:40] <AndyEsser> I've seen 4u7F as well
[15:40] <AndyEsser> I really want to find out how to figure out what it is
[15:40] <craag> Ben-AstroSoc: Put a 1uF on it
[15:41] <AndyEsser> suspect it's related to max peak size, and frequency of ripples etc
[15:41] <mattbrejza> 4700uF ..?
[15:41] <craag> the breakout has a 0.1 on it iirc
[15:41] <Ben-AstroSoc> 1uF, ok (aref and actives?)
[15:42] <craag> erm sorry thought we were talking about gps header
[15:42] <Ben-AstroSoc> both :)
[15:42] <craag> the atmega datasheet will tell you what you need for that
[15:42] <Ben-AstroSoc> oki, will dive in
[15:42] <edmoore> so it's a tradeoff between capacitance and inductance
[15:42] <edmoore> all capacitors have some parasitic inductance
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[15:43] <edmoore> usually in (roughly) proportion to the capacitance
[15:43] <edmoore> so a large -value capacitor, of a given physical size, will have a large parasitic inductance than a small cap of the same size
[15:44] <edmoore> so if you need to be able to supply charge very quickly, you need low parasitic inductance which often means a lowish value cap
[15:44] <edmoore> for the sort of common-or-garden microcontrollers at typical clock speeds, 0u1 is popular
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[15:44] <edmoore> but you might also want, nearby, a larger slow cap, eg 10uF, to keep some bulk charge around
[15:44] <R34lB0rg> type and voltage rating also play a role?
[15:44] <edmoore> but have the 0u1 deal with all the really fast edges
[15:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> datasheet doesn't specify value, just 'decouple the extenal pin for better noise performance'
[15:45] <R34lB0rg> I sometimes wonder about the usefulness of a usb passthrough with capacitor
[15:46] <edmoore> this is the handwavy explanation. In reality there is more science to it and it's very sensitive to layout and other things
[15:46] <edmoore> if in doubt just have 0u1
[15:46] <edmoore> up close to the power pins
[15:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> righto
[15:46] <edmoore> R34lB0rg: yes, without going into loads of detail, pick a good quality high density dielectric like x5r or x7r
[15:46] <edmoore> for decoupling
[15:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> 1uF for radio/gps headers, 0u1 for aref
[15:47] <edmoore> and pick one with a voltage rating >3+ the operating voltage it will see
[15:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> what's the x5r/x7r rating?
[15:48] <edmoore> the type of dielectric
[15:48] <edmoore> they are high density
[15:48] <edmoore> lots of charge in a small volume
[15:48] <R34lB0rg> if you place capacitors in series you decrease capacitance and increase inductivity :-/
[15:48] <edmoore> at the expense of being totally shit otherwise
[15:48] <edmoore> their capacitance goes right down as voltage across them goes up
[15:48] <edmoore> there is a lot of variation/interolance between caps
[15:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[15:48] <edmoore> they are microphonic
[15:49] <edmoore> really good dielectrics (very stable with temp, voltage, vibration) are c0g/np0
[15:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah, found it on wikipedia
[15:49] <AndyEsser> so basically, just find a favourite, and go with that, and not worry too much about the details unless you're doing something specifically with higher voltages, much lower voltages, super high frequencies, etc?
[15:49] <edmoore> but you will see that for a given cap size, eg 0805, you can only get them in much much lower values than you can get x5r/x7r
[15:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> oh it varies in temperature
[15:49] <edmoore> but you don't need all those nice qualities for decoupling really
[15:50] <edmoore> they're more for filters and stuff in signal paths (like audio amplifiers)
[15:50] <edmoore> decoupling is just a bucket or charge to keep local on standby and who cares if it's 20% lower than nominal
[15:50] <edmoore> whereas you do care if the cutoff freq of you filter is 20% different to what you expect - that's where you use c0g
[15:51] <AndyEsser> I need to read up on how capacitors work
[15:51] <edmoore> yes
[15:51] <AndyEsser> if I connect a capacitor from +5v to 0v, charge will build up in the capacitor?
[15:51] <edmoore> yes
[15:51] <AndyEsser> at what point does it discharge?
[15:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> that last bit might've been why my am demodulator wasn't working propelry last term, math checked out, breadboard din't
[15:52] <edmoore> when you connect the capacitor across a load
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[15:52] <AndyEsser> so if I have a push button on the Vcc rail after the capactior, that connects to... an LED let say
[15:52] <edmoore> Ben-AstroSoc: breadboards have tonnes of stray capacitance
[15:52] <AndyEsser> and press the push button
[15:52] <edmoore> between all the plates on the rows
[15:52] <AndyEsser> edmoore: that was the reason I couldn't use breadboard to prototype my GCSE project
[15:52] <AndyEsser> it buggered it all up
[15:53] <edmoore> it's the reason i don't use breadboards for basically anything
[15:53] <edmoore> except very slow stuff
[15:53] <edmoore> AndyEsser: the led will come on
[15:53] <AndyEsser> Yea, I'd love to not bother - but it's easy and simple for sticking a uC on and toggling outputs/inputs etc
[15:53] <AndyEsser> for driving the NTX2b etc
[15:53] <AndyEsser> edmoore: and the cap will discharge?
[15:53] <edmoore> assuming you disconnect vcc and it's just the cap powering it, the led will come on the the led will get fainter and fainter as the cap discharges
[15:53] <edmoore> and so its voltage drops
[15:54] <AndyEsser> gotcha, which is why they do the smoothing of power rails, if the rail drops, the capactior provides the charge momentarily until the rail returns?
[15:54] <edmoore> yes
[15:54] <AndyEsser> ok, thought so
[15:54] <AndyEsser> in my mind, capacitors should have 3 pins, not 2 :P
[15:55] <AndyEsser> that's where my confusion came about as to how it discharged
[15:55] <edmoore> and for decoupling up close to an IC because on a clock edge every transistor in the ic wants to change state
[15:55] <edmoore> which is a huge current draw for a very short time
[15:55] <AndyEsser> gotcha
[15:55] <edmoore> eg 2A for maybe a few tens of ns
[15:55] <edmoore> a long thin power track has too much inductance (inductance = resistance to fast changes in current) to supply that
[15:55] <edmoore> so the voltage on the trace would drop
[15:55] <Ben-AstroSoc> oki, got 3 new cpaacitors in, time to redraw half my pcb ^^
[15:55] <edmoore> so you have the decoupling cap right up close to supply those massive peaks
[15:56] <edmoore> in a very low inductance way
[15:56] <R34lB0rg> AndyEsser, what would you do with 3 pins?
[15:56] <edmoore> so a '20mA continuous' micro is, under a microscope, not 20mA continuos at all
[15:56] <edmoore> but like
[15:56] <AndyEsser> Ok, think I've got it now - thanks
[15:56] <edmoore> 100uA most of the time then 2A for very short periods
[15:56] <AndyEsser> Rebounder: Charge, Discharge, Ground :P
[15:56] <edmoore> but it averages out to 20mA
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[15:56] <edmoore> Q = charge in couplombs
[15:56] <AndyEsser> edmoore: yep makes sense
[15:57] <edmoore> E = QV
[15:57] <edmoore> Q = IT
[15:57] <AndyEsser> QED
[15:57] <AndyEsser> sorry
[15:57] <edmoore> E = 0.5*C*V^2
[15:57] <edmoore> that's about everything you need to know to understand capacitors
[15:57] <edmoore> oh and impedance = 1/j*2*pi*freq*C
[15:57] <AndyEsser> where does the 0.5 come from?
[15:57] <edmoore> integrating CV with respect to V
[15:58] <edmoore> same reason KE is 0.5*m*v^2 when you integrate from momentum (mv)
[15:58] <AndyEsser> cheers
[15:58] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm having PTSD from electrical circuit theory last year
[15:58] <AndyEsser> need to grab me a cheatsheet for all these formulae and start getting them burnt into the mind
[15:59] <edmoore> meh this is just gcse physics
[15:59] <AndyEsser> Ben-AstroSoc: before December I hadn't touched this stuff in like 10 years
[15:59] <AndyEsser> forgotten so much, trying to get back up to speed as quickly as possible
[15:59] <AndyEsser> edmoore: GCSE Physics was a long time ago :)
[16:00] <gonzo___> (some of us predate GSCE!)
[16:00] <Ben-AstroSoc> edmoore: we didn't touch defining stuff as impedance with the whole real/imaginary numbers etc untnil degree
[16:00] <edmoore> ah yes that's degree probably
[16:00] <edmoore> the impedance
[16:01] <Ben-AstroSoc> i did a 30 page paper on filters and resonance and ive forgottne most of it
[16:01] <Ben-AstroSoc> should go reread#
[16:01] <edmoore> then when you get to designing actually high speed, wideband circuits, all of this stuff is tellytubby land bollocks
[16:01] <edmoore> as parasitics totally take over
[16:01] <edmoore> and it becomes tiresome
[16:02] <Ben-AstroSoc> maybe end up dealing with it next year+final year
[16:02] <edmoore> easier to stick to rocket engines
[16:02] <Ben-AstroSoc> i reaaaaally need to get good at maths again
[16:02] <edmoore> maths is the tool
[16:02] <edmoore> sorry
[16:02] <edmoore> maths is The Tool
[16:03] <Ben-AstroSoc> one of my modules this year is basically regurgitate-the-trig-forms with ludicrously long terms and i dont remember any of it -.-
[16:03] <AndyEsser> I have so much reading and catching up to do, just to get back to pre-uni levels :(
[16:03] <Ben-AstroSoc> comms systems ftw
[16:06] <LunarMobile> And physics?
[16:07] <Ben-AstroSoc> got rid of teh buzzer, knocked another 20mm off it
[16:08] <Ben-AstroSoc> getting there#
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[16:24] <edmoore> I have an a4 cheat sheet of trig identities
[16:24] <edmoore> Too faff to remember them all
[16:31] <edmoore> LunarMobile: maths is the tool for physics
[16:31] <LunarMobile> True
[16:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> i used to know them by heart and could spot them pretty easily, then i didn't use them for a year and poof
[16:32] <AndyEsser> I still write out SOHCAHTOA when I have to crack out the basics :P
[16:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> suddenly we're deriving 6 different frequency terms for an am demodulator and i have to sit down and go over it all again
[16:32] <edmoore> It gets like that. I remember little of my control masters
[16:32] <AndyEsser> o ffs
[16:32] <edmoore> I don't use it
[16:32] <AndyEsser> my kitchen is flooding
[16:32] <AndyEsser> back later
[16:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> oki gonna go over pad sizes and reshuffle some bits and i think this board is done
[16:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> 50x106atm
[16:34] <Ben-AstroSoc> wanna lose that 6mm
[16:36] <edmoore> Worth it for Chinese fab deals
[16:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[16:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> i think i can shuffle my power reg stuff about
[16:37] <Ben-AstroSoc> i think we just worked out I2C too, took long enough >_>
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[16:46] <LunarMobile> Brb
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[19:34] <hosler> gimmeh that feed
[19:35] <hosler> oh wait. too soon
[19:36] <hosler> i just purchased 2 20 dollar latex balloons
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[20:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 037 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[20:24] <DL7AD> ping fsphil
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[20:25] <gurlavie> Hi. If I want to suspend a 36" latex with a 20gr payload by a 100m nylon string, no wind. Any idea how much force will the string need to hold? How do you calculate the balloon lift force ? Will a 0.1mm be enough?
[20:27] <blog> Best consider that there is never NO wind. What is the breaking strain of 0.1mm nylon string?
[20:29] <gurlavie> 6lb 2.5kg
[20:29] <SIbot> In real units: 6 lbs = 2.7 kg
[20:31] <fsphil> pong DL7AD
[20:31] <DL7AD> hi phil :)
[20:32] <DL7AD> i'm trying to generate SSDV packets CRC only.
[20:32] <DL7AD> fsphil: but it doesnt work. i still get FEC packets out of the library
[20:33] <fsphil> how are you doing it?
[20:33] <fsphil> setting it up I mean
[20:34] <DL7AD> fsphil: https://github.com/DL7AD/pecan-stm32f429/blob/master/modules/image.c
[20:34] <DL7AD> this is the software for my new tracker
[20:35] <blog> Hmmmm. Not good gurlavie 0.55mm Dyneema has a 100lb breaking strain.
[20:35] <SIbot> In real units: 100 lbs = 45.4 kg
[20:38] <DL7AD> fsphil: any idea?
[20:39] <blog> 0.3mm Dyneema has a 42lb breaking strain and is very light
[20:39] <SIbot> In real units: 42 lbs = 19.1 kg
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[20:43] <blog> gurlavie 0.2mm is good for 30kg and weighs only 49g per 300m reel. Often used as fishing line
[20:44] <fsphil> DL7AD: what is parm->protocol set to?
[20:45] rubdos (~rubdos@host-85-27-50-78.dynamic.voo.be) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[20:45] <DL7AD> PROT_SSDV_APRS_AFSK
[20:45] <blog> :)
[20:45] <DL7AD> @ fsphil
[20:45] Nick change: blog -> Ian_
[20:46] <Ian_> don't know how I became <blog> . . . mystery
[20:47] <Ian_> gurlavie: so you need 0.2 to 0.3mm Dyneema
[20:47] <Ian_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300M-30LB-0-2mm-Dyneema-Fishing-Line-Stronger-Braided-4-Strand-Braid-Super-Lines-/131383086393?var=&hash=item1e970acd39
[20:47] <gurlavie> Great :) tax
[20:48] <Ian_> That's probably the best. I think that it's better and lighter than nylon and being braided, it won't want to impose rotational forces as it tries to unwind the fibres
[20:49] <gurlavie> How do we get to a 30kg from a 20gr payload+50gr rod+ 36" balloon + o.1c hel ?
[20:49] <fsphil> can you confirm it's definitly being set as NOFEC?
[20:51] <DL7AD> fsphil: as far i get home...
[20:51] <DL7AD> fsphil: ~1hour
[20:52] <Ian_> Well, the 20g payload didn't seem significant. With 100m cord, I somehow was considering that you were wanting to constrain a 36" balloon with the cord . . .
[20:52] <Ian_> I got it wrong, but 0.2mm Dyneema in your tool box can't really go wrong, now can it and it's probably lighter than your nylon cord :)
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[20:54] <gurlavie> You got it right. I want this 36" at the end
[20:54] <Ian_> gurlavie: Tell me that you didn't learn something, even if it is only that I can be stupid at times :)
[20:55] <gurlavie> Sure I did
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[20:55] <Ian_> :)
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[21:02] <ProSpectre> Well ... night all.
[21:03] ProSpectre (ProSpectre@ip5f5b5f27.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) left irc:
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[21:07] <Blagus> hi! is any habhub.org admin here? i have a suggestion for predictor
[21:14] Interoth (~Chris____@host81-140-182-190.range81-140.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[21:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> head over to habhub channel, its where most admins hang
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/704770247769722880
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> spot the matlab
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[21:18] <AndyEsser> edmoore: imagine this is the closest I'll get to Swagelok stuff for a while: http://imgur.com/RcmVBGV
[21:24] <dbrooke> interesting use of a drywall box instead of a surface pattress, though I guess the plumbing is your actual problem
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[21:27] <AndyEsser> dbrooke: indeed - took apart the whole assembly... find the wine cork that was clogging up the works plus other residue, cleaned it all out, reassembled and resealed, and voila
[21:27] <AndyEsser> sinks and dishwasher now work again
[21:27] <AndyEsser> and the washing machine isn't about to flood the place
[21:27] <AndyEsser> (which is what it was about to do when I had to rush off earlier)
[21:28] <dbrooke> oops
[21:29] <AndyEsser> still need to fix the upstairs sink, but that'll have to wait
[21:38] <LunarMobile> Ohhh
[21:40] <fsphil> I hope this was playing in the background, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0SuIMUoShI
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[21:42] <bradfirj> Ian_: Regarding the toolbox last night, rest assured I wasn't trying to fly it :)
[21:42] <bradfirj> It's for a remote (think mountain top) receiver/repeater
[21:42] <bradfirj> Listen on ISM bands for RTTY, send anything that passes CRC by sat to a server
[21:43] <fsphil> how remote?
[21:43] <bradfirj> Not near a power socket or a car-remote
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[21:46] <fsphil> the wifi link has been pretty solid on my mountain thingy
[21:47] <bradfirj> How's your mountain thingy performing?
[21:47] <fsphil> great now, discovered recently there was a bad PV panel
[21:47] <fsphil> it's charging to full most days now
[21:47] <bradfirj> lithium batteries or otherwise?
[21:47] <fsphil> two lead acids
[21:48] <bradfirj> Do you need a charge controller on lead acid?
[21:49] <fsphil> yeah definitly
[21:49] <fsphil> the panels would quite happly over charge them
[21:49] <bradfirj> right
[21:49] <bradfirj> How's it been holding up in the cold?
[21:49] <fsphil> when the first controller broke, the batteries where up to about 15v a few times
[21:49] <bradfirj> Or does the voltage converter keep everything toasty?
[21:50] Action: AndyEsser wants to make a remote tracker station
[21:50] <fsphil> the temperature doesn't seem to have bothered it at all
[21:50] <fsphil> I was quite surprised how well it works even when the battery box was under snow
[21:50] <bradfirj> I had concerns about temp but it turns out converting 12v -> 5v with a simple buck converter is actually a fairly efficient heater
[21:50] <bradfirj> especially with plenty of foam insulation
[21:51] <fsphil> yeah the Pi CPU seems to keep itself about 10c above ambient
[21:51] <fsphil> though that box also has the SDR receiver in it
[21:51] <fsphil> that gets fairly warm too
[21:51] <bradfirj> I find the 5v > 3.3 vReg on the Pi is what keeps that board warm
[21:51] <bradfirj> I'm pretty sure that thing's just a resistor
[21:51] <fsphil> hah
[21:52] <fsphil> this is a Pi 2, I think it has the switch mode regulator
[21:52] <fsphil> 12v > 5v via one of Upu's boards
[21:52] <bradfirj> I'm thinking about replacing my household gadgets with Pi3s for the builtin wifi
[21:52] <bradfirj> which will mean I have 2 spare Pi2s to do silly things with...
[21:52] <fsphil> yeah throw them up a mountain
[21:52] <fsphil> is it in NI?
[21:52] <bradfirj> Yep
[21:53] <AndyEsser> fsphil: do you get people fiddling?
[21:53] <fsphil> it might even have line of sight to ours
[21:53] <bradfirj> I've actually got about 8 pis in the house right now
[21:53] <AndyEsser> Pi stacker
[21:53] <AndyEsser> :P
[21:53] <bradfirj> The rally timers are misbehaving
[21:53] <fsphil> none so far AndyEsser, it's fairly far from any nearby tracks
[21:53] <fsphil> I walked up to it one day, nearly killed me
[21:54] <fsphil> current image: http://www.piview.org.uk/webcam/image.jpeg
[21:54] <AndyEsser> fsphil: fair enough - would quite like to stick one up Snowdon
[21:54] <AndyEsser> Snowden
[21:54] <bradfirj> I'm much closer to the mournes, the problem with them is they're much more heavily trafficed
[21:54] <AndyEsser> fsphil: err...
[21:54] <bradfirj> I'd give it 2 weeks in summer before someone f*cks with it
[21:54] <fsphil> yeah
[21:55] <fsphil> I think it's snowing up there at the moment
[21:55] <fsphil> I should put a light on there
[21:55] <AndyEsser> I kind of want to position a bunch of beacon receivers up random phone masts
[21:56] <bradfirj> 50v ringing current will give you all kinds of RFI sadly
[21:56] <bradfirj> yay for BT
[21:56] <AndyEsser> heh yea
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[21:57] <fsphil> towards the mournes, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcUdxpXXEAAs0_L.jpg:large
[21:57] <fsphil> wonder if the wifi would work that far
[21:57] <fsphil> it's about 70km
[21:58] <bradfirj> frensel zone would get hilariously large though
[21:58] <bradfirj> You could do it with big dishes though
[21:58] <bradfirj> I think
[22:01] <fsphil> fresnel zone isn't too bad if heywhatsthat.com is accurate
[22:01] <bradfirj> ubnt website suggests Rockets with Yagis could do it
[22:01] <fsphil> I don't understand the physics of that
[22:01] <fsphil> or is it just reflections from the ground interfering
[22:02] <bradfirj> It's obstructions in the signal path
[22:02] <bradfirj> but your're right it wouldn't actually be a problem
[22:02] <fsphil> that are not in the path
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[22:02] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/uNdGZLY.png
[22:02] <bradfirj> yup
[22:02] <bradfirj> would work
[22:03] <bradfirj> who wants to haul enough batteries up the hill?
[22:03] <fsphil> already done it here ;)
[22:03] <fsphil> I did have the advantage of a 4 wheel drive vehicle
[22:03] <bradfirj> that tends to help
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[22:29] Nick change: Ian_ -> Guest18216
[22:30] <DL7AD> fsphil: still awake?
[22:30] <fsphil> technically yes :)
[22:31] <DL7AD> haha :D
[22:31] <fsphil> just want you to verify it is actually selecting the proper mode
[22:31] <DL7AD> yep sure
[22:32] <Guest18216> Gurlavie, I did for a while think that you were US located . . . the tool box was the clincher, but I looked and found out better
[22:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI3 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI3
[22:38] <gurlavie> Guest18216: ?
[22:39] habby (~habby@host-92-4-146-35.as43234.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:39] <gurlavie> Maybe missed it.....
[22:39] <fsphil> guess who has a Pi3 :)
[22:39] <Upu> someone who doesn't value battery life
[22:39] <fsphil> that bad huh?
[22:41] <Guest18216> ?
[22:41] <DL7AD> fsphil: yes SSDV_TYPE_NOFEC is selected.
[22:42] <Guest18216> It's Ian_ something is messing with my handle
[22:42] <fsphil> and the output definitly has RS codes?
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[22:43] <gurlavie> Now clear.
[22:43] <DL7AD> fsphil: will check that again
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[22:45] <DL7AD> fsphil: yes
[22:45] Nick change: Guest18216 -> G0PAi_Ian
[22:47] <DL7AD> fsphil: http://www.zimagez.com/full/ae93606e647c8804817defaa1cf6b754f28b22eb0d264fd46924c0fb25bf0a9db02cd1c6b4ccdbb590458020d2c84c1d6ff75b916c1df76b.php
[22:48] <DL7AD> fsphil: some lines before i clear the buffer. for(uint16_t i=0; i<SSDV_PKT_SIZE; i++) pkt[i] = 0;
[22:49] <fsphil> the packet size doesn't change
[22:50] <DL7AD> no? but the specification says that the packet is smaller.... isnt it?
[22:51] <DL7AD> => https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv
[22:51] <DL7AD> 205bit without FEC 237bit with FEC?
[22:53] <fsphil> no, that's the payload size. the overall packet size stays the same
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[22:53] <fsphil> the payload is larger withou the FEC block
[22:53] <fsphil> without*
[22:53] <DL7AD> fsphil: is there a way to get smaller packets?
[22:54] <fsphil> you could just drop the FEC block
[22:54] <hosler> zlib compression
[22:54] <fsphil> re-create it on the receiver side for upload
[22:54] <fsphil> a bit hacky though
[22:54] <fsphil> or modify the ssdv.h file, the packet size is controlled there
[22:54] <DL7AD> fsphil: well i'm over 256bytes inside the AX.25 packet thats my problem
[22:55] <DL7AD> fsphil: some devices do not decode it
[22:55] <DL7AD> because it's over the AX.25 specification
[22:55] <DL7AD> *above
[22:56] <fsphil> simplest way is just to drop the FEC section then
[22:57] <fsphil> or drop the sync byte if you want to get it to 255 bytes
[22:57] <DL7AD> so ecode it without FEC and then drop the FEC section?
[22:57] <fsphil> yeah you can modify the encoder to skip the FEC process, and just treat it as a 224 byte packet
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[22:58] <fsphil> the website won't handle this at the moment
[22:58] <DL7AD> fsphil: i think i will drop the FEC and CRC
[22:58] <fsphil> noooo keep the CRC :)
[22:58] <DL7AD> why?
[22:58] <DL7AD> its inside the AX.25 packet
[22:59] <fsphil> the original ssdv version had a 16-bit checksum, and there where false positives
[23:00] <fsphil> though it was testing a lot more data
[23:01] <DL7AD> fsphil: with dropping the FEC i'm still above 256byte (BASE64 encoded)
[23:01] <DL7AD> :/
[23:01] <fsphil> base64 too. this is pretty icky
[23:01] <DL7AD> any other idea?
[23:02] <fsphil> if you don't mind it not being compatible, get rid of the FEC, CRC and callsign fields
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[23:02] <DL7AD> fsphil: well i want to upload it to the SSDV server
[23:02] <fsphil> and change SSDV_PKT_SIZE in ssdv.h
[23:02] <fsphil> or split it across ax.25 frames
[23:03] <fsphil> ax.25 is quite happy with binary data
[23:03] <fsphil> the buggy igates should be fixed
[23:04] <DL7AD> well i tried to transmit it binary
[23:04] <DL7AD> but somehow the packets were misinterpreted sometimes
[23:06] <DL7AD> fsphil: i dont know AX.25 too much, to know if binary data could interfere with it.
[23:11] <fsphil> ax.25 itself is fine with it. it's just the badly programmed igates that expect aprs's ascii-only thing
[23:12] <fsphil> if you want it to go through aprs-is then you'll probably not be able to use binary
[23:13] <DL7AD> fsphil: well.... do you know direwolf? its quiet updated but it fails to receive the packets
[23:14] <fsphil> could have the same flaw
[23:14] <fsphil> I've done IP over ax.25, worked fine :)
[23:14] <fsphil> things made for aprs tend to assume ascii though
[23:15] <fsphil> try soundmodem, it should handle binary packets just fine
[23:15] <DL7AD> fsphil: my TH-D72 can handle it.
[23:16] <DL7AD> strange. i will do a bug report to direwolf :)
[23:17] <fsphil> if you can do that then you should be able to fit in the regular packet size
[23:18] <fsphil> no farting about with base64
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[23:23] <DL7AD> fsphil: yep :)
[23:23] <fsphil> any reason for using ax25?
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[23:35] <DL7AD> fsphil: yes we want to do 9k6
[23:35] <fsphil> ah sweet
[23:35] <DL7AD> and floaters with 1k2.... lets say 1 packet per minute
[23:35] <DL7AD> so you get 1 QVGA every 50min
[23:35] <fsphil> have you got a way to re-transmit packets? without FEC you might see a fair few lost packets
[23:36] <DL7AD> fsphil: not implement yet
[23:36] <DL7AD> but i could do that
[23:38] <DL7AD> fsphil: i just found out that xastir has a problem with accepting experimental flagged packets -.-
[23:38] <DL7AD> i run out of options ^^
[23:38] <fsphil> soundmodem :)
[23:38] <DL7AD> and then?
[23:39] <fsphil> or multimon
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[23:39] <fsphil> that will give you the packets, up to you what to do with them after that
[23:39] <DL7AD> fsphil: can i find multimon on the ubuntu repros?
[23:39] <fsphil> would be simple to upload them to habhub
[23:40] <fsphil> possibly not, it's quite old. multimon-ng was a more recent varient
[23:40] <fsphil> soundmodem is likely packaged, but it's not as simple to setup
[23:40] <DL7AD> hm....
[23:40] <dbrooke> why can't you send the ssdv packets directly without ax.25, or are you depending on some pre-exiting nework?
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[23:42] <DL7AD> dbrooke: yeah i could send them without using ax.25.
[23:42] <DL7AD> is there an option to receive it?
[23:43] <fsphil> none that I'm aware of
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[23:43] <dbrooke> I've always used the hardware modems so they just provide data and clock, you'd need to synchronise to the packet somehow
[23:44] <fsphil> your RF chip may provide a packet system
[23:44] <dbrooke> AX.25 uses HDLC to get the sync
[23:44] <DL7AD> dbrooke: well AX.25 is great because ive got all the hardware for decoding
[23:44] <fsphil> yeah the 9k6 ax.25 is FSK
[23:44] <fsphil> you might be able to use it directly
[23:45] <DL7AD> fsphil: i still did not manage FSK
[23:45] <DL7AD> i just need some more hours
[23:45] <fsphil> don't we all
[23:45] <DL7AD> :D
[23:46] <DL7AD> fsphil: well its all about packet size
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[23:46] Nick change: G0PAi_Ian -> Ian_
[23:46] <fsphil> a smaller ssdv packet size has been requested before, but the problem is the increasing overhead
[23:46] <DL7AD> the th-d72 doent like large packets. direwolf doesnt like binary data. xastir doesnt like experimental data (it wont igate it)
[23:46] <fsphil> the ssdv header is quite large
[23:47] <dbrooke> do AX.25 UI packets have a size limit or is it just APRS imposing something? I seem to remember using 512byte MTU for IP over AX.25
[23:47] <fsphil> ax.25 itself doesn't, but they seem to have agreed a 'limit' of 256 bytes
[23:47] <DL7AD> dbrooke: yes the specification does. 256byte in the information field.
[23:48] <fsphil> https://www.tapr.org/pub_ax25.html
[23:48] <LunarMobile> Good night :)
[23:48] <fsphil> the header doesn't include a length value so it really could be as long as you want
[23:48] <DL7AD> LunarMobile good night
[23:48] <fsphil> nite LL
[23:48] <fsphil> LM even
[23:50] <LunarMobile> :)
[23:50] <DL7AD> fsphil: is there anything i can do now? because i have no igate which is able to relay the images to the internet
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[23:50] <DL7AD> all the igates have bugs
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[23:52] <fsphil> see if https://github.com/EliasOenal/multimon-ng can decode them (it should)
[23:52] <fsphil> and modify it to upload to habhub
[23:53] <dbrooke> if you want to igate it then it'll need to comply with APRS as well as AX.25 and that will restrict you
[23:54] <DL7AD> dbrooke: yes sure. is that a problem?
[23:54] <fsphil> aprs-is will not take binary packets
[23:54] <fsphil> this is where your stuff gets igated to
[23:55] <DL7AD> fsphil: oh it does....
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[23:55] <fsphil> oh?
[23:55] <fsphil> that would be nice
[23:55] <fsphil> isn't it an ascii interface?
[23:55] <DL7AD> no idea
[23:56] <DL7AD> hold on. i got multimon
[23:56] <dbrooke> APRS is not 8-bit clean since it assumes use of old-fashioned TNCs and has to avoid various escape characters
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[23:56] <fsphil> didn't know that
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[23:56] <fsphil> at least there is a reason for it
[23:57] <fsphil> so yeah if you're stuck with doing this over aprs and using other peoples igates, you'll have to base encode it
[23:57] <DL7AD> dbrooke: what are these characters?
[23:58] <dbrooke> they were a bit like X.25 PADs and had a CLI, you could put them into a transparent mode but had an escape sequence to switch streams and/or return to CLI
[23:58] <DL7AD> fsphil: okay so we come again to the first question.... how do i get the packets short enough base64 encoded?
[23:59] <DL7AD> below or equal 256byte
[00:00] --- Wed Mar 2 2016