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[00:38] <tweetBot> @daveake: SSDV repeating in action- image 1 has packets 10-30 skipped, #2 has those re-sent, #3 shows tracker/gateway #UKHAS https://t.co/nGBtqnG3YU
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[01:29] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KJ4TDM-1 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TDM-1
[01:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4XWC-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[03:16] <Ian_> fsphil, it's English Bay on Ascension. There is or was a big sturber curtain array next to the beach for BBC world service relay
[03:16] <Ian_> Not English Beach
[03:22] <Ian_> Vaizki, the RTTY 'stop' bit beyond the scheduled stop bits, is commonly referred to as a holding Mark. (same difference of course) :)
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[04:32] Nick change: PsionicO1 -> PsionicOz
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[05:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03IK8SUT-11 after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK8SUT-11
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[05:55] <IronMike> What is IK8SUT-11?
[05:55] <IronMike> Amateur picosat or something?
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[06:00] Nick change: Jartza_ -> Jartza
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[08:13] <AndyEsser> morning
[08:17] <fsphil> good beginning of this 24 hour period to all
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[08:18] <AndyEsser> fsphil: hehe
[08:32] <daveake> 24 of your Earth hours
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[08:45] <Vaizki> arr... the only thing that saddens me this morning is that apparently UBSEDS13 didn't make it to Norway
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[08:56] <AndyEsser> What were the recommended gcc (of whatever variety) flags for, -Wall, -pedantic, and was there something else?
[08:57] <fsphil> -Os is probably a good idea
[08:57] <AndyEsser> already had that in as well
[08:57] <AndyEsser> :)
[08:58] <Vaizki> -Werror naturally
[08:58] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: warnings as errors?
[08:58] <Vaizki> yes!
[08:58] <AndyEsser> woo, barring a spurious ; I had, my code compiled first time with all those :)
[08:58] <fsphil> yeah good idea
[08:59] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: that should be a default
[08:59] <Vaizki> you can always go the -Wextra mile
[08:59] <AndyEsser> ...
[08:59] <fsphil> http://lars-lab.jpl.nasa.gov/JPL_Coding_Standard_C.pdf
[08:59] <fsphil> page 8 for even more :)
[09:00] <fsphil> good document overall
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[09:00] <AndyEsser> Cheers
[09:00] <AndyEsser> I've got the NASA Rule of Ten as well that I'm trying to abide by as much as possible as well
[09:00] <Vaizki> -Wpointer-arith is a bit harsh on AVR
[09:01] <AndyEsser> for giggles I've just added all those in to see what'll happen :)
[09:01] <Vaizki> hmm ok forget that, you can get around it by not using void pointers
[09:01] <Vaizki> which is a good old bad convention anyway ;)
[09:02] <AndyEsser> heh, 3 of those flags I can't use on my code anyway
[09:02] <Vaizki> so just use uint8_t when pointing to bytes
[09:02] <AndyEsser> I'm apparently casting something somewhere
[09:04] <AndyEsser> heh - yea - this has b0rked my code a bit :)
[09:05] <AndyEsser> (or rather, my code was b0rked, this is just showing it)
[09:05] <AndyEsser> "error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of 'uint8_t' with no type"
[09:05] <AndyEsser> interesting...
[09:06] <fsphil> huh
[09:06] <fsphil> what's the line?
[09:06] <AndyEsser> void SetPinInputB(const uint8_t pin);
[09:07] <Vaizki> did you include stdint.h?
[09:07] <fsphil> does the const make sense there?
[09:07] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: just done that now :)
[09:07] <Vaizki> no not really
[09:07] <AndyEsser> those errors have gone
[09:07] <AndyEsser> I always make parameters const until they need not be
[09:08] <Vaizki> well ints are always const, kinda :)
[09:08] <AndyEsser> my 'belief' is that parameters should not be altered within a method/function, so I always make them const
[09:08] <Vaizki> this is C, you are not passing uint8_t by reference
[09:08] <AndyEsser> Doesn't matter
[09:09] <Vaizki> I just use it for pointers and references
[09:09] <AndyEsser> in my eyes, parameters to methods are fixed
[09:09] <AndyEsser> brb
[09:09] <Vaizki> for others it's just confusing
[09:09] <Vaizki> DO NOT RUN AWAY FROM A FIGHT!
[09:09] <Vaizki> dammit.. :D
[09:09] <fsphil> lol
[09:09] <AndyEsser> I REALLY NEED THE LOO!!
[09:09] <Vaizki> OK!
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[09:12] <Vaizki> but hey, that said, I would prefer that all function arguments are const by default and you'd have to specify 'mutable' or 'volatile' if you want to change them
[09:14] <AndyEsser> back
[09:14] <AndyEsser> right
[09:14] <AndyEsser> it basically boils down to when I was in the games industry, 'const correctness' was a good of avoiding idiot programmers :)
[09:15] <AndyEsser> I should be able to read the value of 'parameter1' at the bottom of a 100 line method (lets not get into talks of cyclometric complexity or anything - just for the sake of argument) and know for sure that it is the vlaue that was passed in
[09:15] <AndyEsser> and that something further up in the method hasn't altered it
[09:15] <AndyEsser> highly contrived example
[09:16] <AndyEsser> http://pastebin.com/x9ALVkfn
[09:16] <AndyEsser> do we agree this would not be a good idea?
[09:22] <Vaizki> I don't see anything wrong with it
[09:22] <Vaizki> sorry :)
[09:22] <AndyEsser> really?
[09:22] <AndyEsser> you wouldn't just do return (a+b)?
[09:22] <AndyEsser> :)
[09:23] <Vaizki> well yes but I didn't think you mean that.. I thought your beef is with modifying a
[09:23] <AndyEsser> hehe
[09:23] <AndyEsser> I did
[09:23] <AndyEsser> ;)
[09:24] <AndyEsser> but expected some snarky comment
[09:24] <AndyEsser> that's fair enough, if you don't see an issue with it
[09:24] <AndyEsser> it's just a convention I stick to
[09:24] <gonzo_> a is a value passed on the stack, so see no issues
[09:25] <gonzo_> though I would probably set up a local c, and use that for the local calc
[09:25] <Vaizki> but as said, I would prefer that functiona arguments were const by default even if it meant declaring a new variable and a straight assignment in the beginning of the function to a mutable variable.. which the compiler would optimize out :)
[09:25] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I'm not necessarily talking about side-effects outside of the method, which pass-by-value means doesn't happen
[09:25] <Vaizki> but if someone wants to just run with 'a' and change it, that's ok in C/C++
[09:26] <AndyEsser> just mainly... I like knowing that at any point in a method, a is the value passed in, etc
[09:26] <AndyEsser> again - it's convention and personal choice
[09:26] <gonzo_> that is why I would create a local c
[09:26] <gonzo_> I also don't like putting more than ome operation on a line
[09:27] <gonzo_> so where people so a *a++ = *b++;
[09:27] <gonzo_> I do that inj three separate ops. Helps make the code self doc
[09:27] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: that would take me time to work out what's happening
[09:27] <AndyEsser> which I agree with you
[09:28] <gonzo_> you shoudl be able to read code, like a piece of text
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[09:28] <gonzo_> and doing ops in conditionals I don't like.
[09:28] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I would argue, like a poem :)
[09:28] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: operations that calculate, or alter stuff - big no no in conditionals
[09:28] <AndyEsser> even if it's checking the return value of a method
[09:28] <AndyEsser> ie
[09:28] <AndyEsser> if(myMethod(a, b) == S_OK) {}
[09:28] <AndyEsser> not a fan of
[09:29] <AndyEsser> I'd rather something like
[09:29] <gonzo_> even a simple fn with a bool return, I would still have a sepatrate local var
[09:29] <AndyEsser> int result = myMethod(a, b);
[09:29] <AndyEsser> if(result == S_OK);
[09:29] <Vaizki> *a++ = *b++; pfffft just do *(a-1) = (a++,b++,*(b-1))
[09:29] <Vaizki> it's called job security
[09:29] <fsphil> I will often use while(somefunction(data) == KEEP_GOING) {}
[09:29] <AndyEsser> hahaha
[09:30] <gonzo_> yep, that is my style also (except I decalre all vars at the top, unless really scavenging for registers/stack space)
[09:31] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I typically declare as required, however I'm aware that ANSI C requires all declarations at the top of scope, I believe
[09:31] <Vaizki> umm I always declare variables at the smallest possible scope
[09:31] <Vaizki> but yes at the top of that scope
[09:31] <gonzo_> I've seen some horrors in the code I'm lumbered with at the mo
[09:31] <AndyEsser> My current codebase is perfect
[09:31] <Vaizki> get off my github then :)
[09:32] <AndyEsser> but that might be because I wrote it all from greenfield development a year ago :)
[09:32] <gonzo_> if ( a == fn( a, b, c ) )
[09:32] <AndyEsser> haha
[09:32] <AndyEsser> (it is far from perfect)
[09:32] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: *shudder*
[09:33] <Vaizki> http://www.mindtribe.com/2011/07/forgotten-c-the-comma-operator/
[09:33] <Vaizki> mmmmm...!
[09:33] <AndyEsser> NOOOOO
[09:33] <AndyEsser> bad Vaizki
[09:33] <gonzo_> I was asked recently to lookm at some nice new code, and the mgmnt seemed a bit taken aback when I suggested that whoever wrote it should be executed for crimes against humanity
[09:33] <gonzo_> (think they had paid a lot for it)
[09:33] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, too late the box is open!
[09:34] <AndyEsser> hahahaha
[09:34] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: that's a common occurence that I've seen in places before
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[09:35] <Vaizki> I will take it upon me to use the comma operator at least once this year
[09:36] <Vaizki> in a place where it will be beautiful
[09:36] <mfa298> good one I came across for conditionals is to do 'if ( 2 == a)' rather than 'if (a == 2)'
[09:37] <craag> yoda conditionals
[09:37] <mfa298> has the advantage of throwing an error if you forget one of the =
[09:37] <Vaizki> I don't think there's any benefit except a big error if you forget the second =
[09:37] <Vaizki> sync
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[09:38] <mfa298> that big error can be useful, I'm sure I've debugged at least one bit of code where the if should have failed and found I was doing 'if (a=2)'
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[09:39] <gonzo_> when first learning C (it was new then) the lecturer called = a 'guzinta', so a guzinta b
[09:39] <gonzo_> equals was always used to describe ==
[09:39] <Vaizki> now that we have arrived at the miracle of assignment and equality, I would like to tell you about this amazing thing called PHP
[09:39] Action: Vaizki ducks & covers
[09:40] <gonzo_> he described languages like chainsaws. A B&Q saw would be one with guards on, like pascal. You can cut down east stuff, but the guards get in the way
[09:41] <gonzo_> C was an industrial chainsaw. No guards, works on big nasty jobs, but make a mistake and you will lose a limb
[09:41] <Vaizki> http://phpsadness.com/sad/52
[09:41] <daveake> I wonder of Toys R Us sell chainsaws
[09:41] <Vaizki> nice visualization :D
[09:41] <daveake> if
[09:41] <Vaizki> yes they do
[09:41] <gonzo_> so common C errors were rated in terms of the size of the injury
[09:42] <gonzo_> = and == was worth an arm
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[09:42] <gonzo_> forgetting a * was a whole leg
[09:42] <daveake> setjmp/longjmp = deatch ?
[09:42] <daveake> death
[09:43] <mfa298> in that php is probably like a chainsaw with guards but that you swing around on a chain. you think its safe but then it'll swing around and take a leg off when youre not expecting
[09:45] <gonzo_> (I had to google that dave. Never really used libs. Only used a printf for the first time about 18mths ago)
[09:46] <Vaizki> also gotta love that PHP fixes their comparison operators periodically making new versions break backward compatibility
[09:46] <Vaizki> and not at major versions either, for example PHP 5.4.4 changed how the == works
[09:46] <gonzo_> in a world of watching the program mem in terms of bytes used and tracking stack useage on bits of paper, printf never featured. This world of PCs was a bit of a shock
[09:47] Nick change: spe_ -> spe
[09:47] <daveake> gonzo_ It's like goto but worse
[09:47] <daveake> goto roulette
[09:48] <gonzo_> I have found goto's in this current code. They were obviously embarrased, as they hit them in a macro that looks like a fn
[09:49] <gonzo_> hid
[09:49] <Vaizki> what's wrong with a nice error handler goto now and then :)
[09:50] <gonzo_> I also had to ask about exeptions. When it was explained, I said that it was nasty. How about just not have errors.
[09:50] Action: craag puts a longjmp to Vaizki's head and pulls the trigger
[09:50] <daveake> missed
[09:50] <Vaizki> it's like groundhog day!
[09:51] <daveake> someone else dies instead
[09:51] <gonzo_> craag, it just may blow up in your hand and take your fingers off
[09:51] <gonzo_> triple snap!
[09:52] <Vaizki> well tbh I think gotos are rather useful in doing error handling in pure C.. sorry :)
[09:52] <Vaizki> nesting if-loops 7 deep to clean up allocated stuff etc.. ewww
[09:52] <gonzo_> they prob avoid huge nested if's
[09:52] <Vaizki> in C++, do use an exception.. or don't make errors
[09:53] <gonzo_> malloc !! go and sit on the naughty srtep!
[09:53] <Vaizki> I knew it
[09:53] <Vaizki> I just had to clean up some old code last week with a hash table containing linked lists.. there's a goto in there and I'm not removing it ;)
[09:54] <gonzo_> on an old system, someopne came to me to ask why malloc was not working. Had to break the noew that we usually didn't have one in the embedded world
[09:55] <gonzo_> that was actually my first intro to how little PC people often know or think about what is actually goingv on when things are called
[09:56] <fsphil> I think avr-libc has malloc these days
[09:56] <Vaizki> and yet if you look at a standard C course or tutorial, malloc() and free() pop up half way in at the latest
[09:56] <fsphil> which is kinda weird on a machine with a max of 8kb
[09:57] <Vaizki> I would not use avr-libc malloc except with external ram
[09:57] <fsphil> the xmegas might have more ram
[09:57] <gonzo_> PICs with ram in the 100's of bytes
[09:58] <gonzo_> on my tracker, I have a feeling I had to parse the nmea string as it came in, as I didn't have enough ram to hold it and the rtty string at the same time
[09:59] <Vaizki> atmega128 at least has external memory support
[09:59] <Vaizki> 328p doesn't afaik
[10:00] <gonzo_> 'course, in my day we were glad for the price of a cup of tea.....
[10:00] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: that was an annoying discovery
[10:00] <AndyEsser> I believe the 644 does
[10:01] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: we are not starting the 4 Yorkshireman sketch again :P
[10:01] <daveake> CPU? We used to glue together TTL ...
[10:01] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: don't forget javascript with =, == and ===
[10:02] <fsphil> TTL?! I had to do my logic in sand, with a stick
[10:02] <daveake> we had to make the sand with rock and a stick
[10:02] <AndyEsser> fsphil: stick and magnifying glass?
[10:03] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, well the real customers for these chips choose a new part if they need more memory, they don't glue on a memory expansion cartridge..
[10:03] <gonzo_> when I say rock, it was just a collection of cosmic gases, but it were a rock to us!
[10:04] <Vaizki> adding sram to an avr is a bit like towing a 40 foot container with your car to get more luggage space
[10:05] <gonzo_> hmmm, there's an idea
[10:05] <gonzo_> my old car had a legal towing weight of 18ton
[10:05] <AndyEsser> wait... who here recommended exceptions?!
[10:06] <Vaizki> I did, over gotos :)
[10:06] <AndyEsser> hmm
[10:06] <gonzo_> it was a special for range rovers, as the police used them to drag dead HGVs off the motorway and needed the rating for it to be legal
[10:06] <AndyEsser> Excpetions > Gotos
[10:06] <AndyEsser> however I'd still avoid them
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[10:07] <gonzo_> they seem to be a sort opf background extra return value
[10:07] <AndyEsser> I can understand why Vaizki would recommend them
[10:08] <Vaizki> naah I just use them inside a function, I don't throw them out of a func
[10:08] <AndyEsser> try {} catch (...) finally { clean up allocations, etc}
[10:08] <Vaizki> yes
[10:08] <AndyEsser> but they have a pretty decent performance penalty
[10:08] <AndyEsser> part of the reason I'm using C++ is so that I can implement a variation of RAII to ensure resources are cleaned up
[10:08] <Vaizki> if I want to throw an exception to the caller of a function I just use Python ;)
[10:09] Action: AndyEsser glares
[10:09] <gonzo_> it seems common to just assume that something else will catch them, up the chain. Basically lasyness
[10:09] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: Usually, in my Java day-to-day dev, I use the try/catch to make sure the exception doesn't move back up the stack
[10:09] <gonzo_> it'sd the 'somebody, anybody, nobody' story
[10:09] <AndyEsser> and occasionally throw it out of my web controllers, as it then informs the exception handler and returns the correct HTTP status codes and stuff
[10:10] <AndyEsser> right, JPL coding standard printed off
[10:10] <AndyEsser> time to read :)
[10:17] Action: Vaizki µP¨ ~)¨‡ ˆo)uq Pu _exceptionally_ PuuoŽ!uS PŽ ‡o pé PuuoŽ!uS ou IRC
[10:18] <AndyEsser> I hate you
[10:18] <Vaizki> thank you, thank you, it was nothing really :)
[10:19] <AndyEsser> ok, having a blond moment
[10:19] <AndyEsser> http://pastebin.com/akdEVeKg
[10:19] <AndyEsser> is throwing this error: error: conversion to 'unsigned char' from 'int' may alter its value
[10:19] <AndyEsser> (pin is a uint8_t)
[10:20] <AndyEsser> but... where is the conversion happening?
[10:21] <Vaizki> so what is 'pin'
[10:21] <Vaizki> oh
[10:21] <Vaizki> learning to read here :)
[10:21] <Vaizki> I think the conversion is the constant 1 being converted to uint8_t?
[10:22] <Vaizki> which is an unsigned char
[10:22] <AndyEsser> that's what I thought
[10:22] <AndyEsser> but an explicit conversion doesn't work
[10:22] <AndyEsser> although...
[10:22] <AndyEsser> that might be an error on it's own
[10:22] <AndyEsser> let me try something
[10:23] <Vaizki> UINT8_C(7) is a macro to create a constant from number 7
[10:23] <AndyEsser> uint8_t one = 1;
[10:23] <AndyEsser> DDRB &= ~(one << pin);
[10:23] <AndyEsser> that's retarded...
[10:23] <AndyEsser> but also still wrong ;)
[10:23] <AndyEsser> o0o ta
[10:24] <Vaizki> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__avr__stdint.html
[10:26] <AndyEsser> o for the love of god...
[10:26] <AndyEsser> even the macro doesn't solve the issue
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[10:28] <Vaizki> still same error?
[10:28] <AndyEsser> yep
[10:28] <Vaizki> so break it into one operation per line ;)
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[10:32] <AndyEsser> good lord that's an interesting quirk of the C standard
[10:32] <AndyEsser> "The C standard says that the "integer promotions" are performed on each of the operands and that the type of the result is that of the promoted left operand (C99 §6.5.7/3)."
[10:32] <AndyEsser> "The integer promotions (§ say that if an int can represent all of the possible values, then it's promoted to an int"
[10:33] <AndyEsser> which means I have to do this: uint8_t value = (uint8_t)(1 << pin);
[10:33] <AndyEsser> however, then still have an actual issue on the next line
[10:33] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[10:33] Action: AndyEsser resists temptation to reduce warning level...
[10:33] <AndyEsser> :P
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[10:49] <Ben-AstroSoc> worked out a frequeny change of 508Hz on the NTX2B Tx pin, that's close enough i think
[10:49] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: success!!
[10:50] <mfa298> reading back a bit, in ruby (and I suspect other languages) exceptions seem to be used a bit like return codes from C functions although can be a bit more descriptive at times. In terms of which is better I'm not sure - both have benefits
[10:51] <AndyEsser> mfa298: I imagine that having exceptions in higher level languages like ruby, etc has less of a performance overhead
[10:51] <AndyEsser> (or rather, the overhead is already there due to the nature of the languages)
[10:52] <mfa298> quite possibly, the other advantage is that it forces you do deal with things if there's an issue or your code bombs out. In C you could try to open() a file and read from it and get odd issues if the file didn't exist and you didn't check the return value from open
[10:52] <AndyEsser> Yea
[10:52] <AndyEsser> although, that would be poor coding anyway
[10:53] <AndyEsser> another reason I pretty avoid all void-return, and at least provide _something_ to indicate success/failure
[10:53] <mfa298> although I'm currently fighting it at the moment in some ruby code where I'm doing a http request and 200 is bad (I'd like it to tell me I need authorisation)
[10:54] <AndyEsser> 200 is a very bad return code in that instance ;)
[10:54] <eroomde> AndyEsser: that's a v good practice i think
[10:54] <eroomde> also makes it easier to test
[10:54] <AndyEsser> there is a specific HTTP status code for require auth
[10:54] <AndyEsser> eroomde: agreed
[10:54] <eroomde> and it bleeds into hardware design
[10:55] <eroomde> so for example, one one product i make there is a hotwire that melts through an aerostat envelope
[10:55] <AndyEsser> problem with, for example, setting a pin output.. do I go to the extreme of reading back the memory loc to check it actually got set?
[10:55] <mfa298> AndyEsser: yup, but the ruby code only throws exceptions if the code isn't 200 (OK)
[10:55] <eroomde> i want to write a testable startup sequence for the unit, so instead of seeing if the hotwire is merely there i actually precisely measure its resistance
[10:56] <eroomde> that lets me return a value from the code which means i can both test the code with unit tests and i have hardware selftesting as a result
[10:56] <AndyEsser> nice
[10:58] <AndyEsser> these changes to cover the casting/int promotion are so going to result in a copy/pasta error
[10:58] <AndyEsser> time to work up a full battery of tests
[11:00] <AndyEsser> woo! compiles
[11:00] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> gonna see if i can tune it closer to 425Hz
[11:11] <fsphil> AndyEsser: there are so many badly made web services
[11:12] <fsphil> shame too as it doesn't take much effort to do it right
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[11:16] <AndyEsser> fsphil: indeed
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[11:19] <AndyEsser> so quick question - many of the programming standards I've seen around embedded systems and things, say that loops must _always_ have a statically definable and predictable upper limit
[11:19] <eroomde> yes
[11:19] <AndyEsser> (ie I guess imposing a definite upper bound to a for loop, or a timeout on a while loop or something)
[11:19] <eroomde> apart from maybe 'while(1)' as a main loop
[11:19] <AndyEsser> what about the 'main' busy-wait loop to stop the cpu shutting down?
[11:19] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[11:19] <AndyEsser> thanks :)
[11:19] <eroomde> i saw you coming
[11:20] <AndyEsser> eww
[11:20] <AndyEsser> cool thanks
[11:20] <mattbrejza> if +inf not a statically definable and predictable upper limit anyway? :P
[11:20] <mattbrejza> *is
[11:21] <AndyEsser> o look... the JPL has a specific note about that main loop, and says it should be annotated with /* @non-terminating@ */ which I guess makes sense :)
[11:24] <eroomde> i suspect that's a specific note to one of their static analysis tools
[11:24] <eroomde> oh AndyEsser, you would probably enjoy this talk
[11:24] <eroomde> the jpl coding quality czar and head of software for the curciosity lander
[11:24] <AndyEsser> eroomde: Yea, agreed - it does seem to be formatted specifically in a way a static analyser can pick it up
[11:24] <eroomde> he gave a talk on ho they write and test code
[11:24] <AndyEsser> curciosity?
[11:24] <eroomde> sorry typing
[11:24] <AndyEsser> cold in the office today?
[11:24] <eroomde> curiosity
[11:25] <AndyEsser> that would be an interesting talk if you have the link to hand
[11:25] <AndyEsser> (if not I'll dig around)
[11:25] <eroomde> i have been in the gym
[11:25] <eroomde> bashed up hands
[11:25] <eroomde> i'll find it sec
[11:27] <AndyEsser> I need to make an x86 equivalent of the avr lib to test against... yay
[11:28] <eroomde> https://vimeo.com/84991949
[11:28] <Vaizki> umm why
[11:28] <eroomde> yeah why?
[11:29] <AndyEsser> so that I can test my higher-level code works, without it having to run on the hardware
[11:29] <AndyEsser> eroomde: ta
[11:31] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, http://www.nongnu.org/simulavr/
[11:32] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: oo interesting, thanks
[11:33] <AndyEsser> will explore this and see if I can just drop it into my build pipeline
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[11:34] <Vaizki> caveat: have not used it myself
[11:35] <AndyEsser> no worries
[11:35] <AndyEsser> might work well enough in the meantime :)
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[11:41] <AndyEsser> eroomde: damnit... this talk is making me want to come up with all sorts of different testbeds now and stuff
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[11:44] <eroomde> i think just good static analysis will get you far
[11:44] <eroomde> a lot of the jpl coding standard seems to be designed around making life easier for static analysis tools
[11:45] <eroomde> it's all very unsexy C as a result but then i guess you don't want sexy C for this sort of thing
[11:45] <eroomde> just solid c
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[11:49] <AndyEsser> indeed
[11:51] <AndyEsser> I'd rather have 10 lines of very unsexy C code that I knew definitely did the job
[11:51] <AndyEsser> than 2 lines of convoluted mess that 'looks' nicer, but has some weird edge case behaviour
[11:55] <gonzo_> this is all very un-PC talk?! Should we not be inporting some bloaty tool/lib to do a simple job, then use opinionated solutions found on forums, by people who don't have a clue about it. And get our collegues to rally around and reassure us that this is how you do it these days ??
[11:56] <gonzo_> (sorry, in a renty mood)
[11:56] <gonzo_> ranty even
[11:56] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I think you'll find, that other than arguments about editors (which I think we all agreed isn't really all that important anyway) - we're all fairly sensible :)
[11:58] <gonzo_> yep, but it's one of thye few communities who understand my feelind, ratherf than just saying 'erm, but that IS the way'
[11:58] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: I had many discussions at previous roles about "just dropping in a library, 3rd party tool, etc"
[11:58] <AndyEsser> usually I was proven right when support for the lib stopped, or a critical bug was found, etc
[11:59] <Vaizki> only c++ libraries ever used in my company are STL and boost.. and boost in only one product
[12:00] <AndyEsser> GAH
[12:00] <Vaizki> now talking about Python, then.. Welllllllll.. :)
[12:00] <AndyEsser> also, STL is bad, but not as bad as Boost ;)
[12:00] <craag> There's a student here at the uni who's just finished a group project, they ran code stats to see who had contributed. He was responsible for writing ~1,000 lines, and deleting ~50,000.
[12:00] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I pay no regard to importing something Python, or another NodeJS module or something
[12:00] <AndyEsser> but neither of those will run mission critical code :)
[12:00] <AndyEsser> craag: ha
[12:01] <craag> He was the one who removed all the libs people added, and rewrote their code to use standard functions ;)
[12:01] <Vaizki> well nasa uses python for a lot of mission critical stuff :)
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[12:01] <eroomde> i like the stl
[12:01] <Oddstr13> craag: keep him. throw away the rest :P
[12:01] <AndyEsser> eroomde: STL is fine if you're not concerned with performance, memory usage, or concurrency
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[12:02] <Vaizki> bah
[12:03] Action: Oddstr13 imports threading, and dies innside
[12:09] <AndyEsser> hmm, going to go and buy myself a whiteboard at lunch I think
[12:09] <AndyEsser> fed up of constantly hunting down paper in my office
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[12:14] <mfa298> there is a case for using libraries rather than always re-inventing the wheel, unless you've got tons of free time. However I generally do a lot of research on the libraries to ensure they are written sensibly and are being maintained.
[12:14] <AndyEsser> Yep
[12:15] <AndyEsser> agreed on not always re-inventing the wheel
[12:15] <mfa298> Seen plenty of popular libraries which are badly written and/or un-supported.
[12:15] <AndyEsser> but if we never re-invent the wheel, we'd still be using circular stones
[12:15] <mfa298> popular != good
[12:15] <mattbrejza> !track UBSEDS13
[12:15] <SpacenearUS> 03mattbrejza: Here you go - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS13
[12:16] <mattbrejza> :(
[12:16] <mattbrejza> hmm it could turn up next week in canada having never actually crossed its starting longitude
[12:19] <Vaizki> wait.. Norway and Finland are geofenced out of APRS on it :O
[12:19] <Vaizki> dammit..
[12:19] <mattbrejza> if only it lost gps lock it might be able to tell us where it is :P
[12:19] <Vaizki> https://github.com/bristol-seds/pico-tracker/blob/master/sim/geofence/geofence.ipynb
[12:20] <Vaizki> In [107] excludes Finland, Sweden and Norway from APRS
[12:25] <mattbrejza> alothugh wouldnt it be heard as it approaches the coast?
[12:26] <AndyEsser> someone who has just joined the Chester Devs meetup group has a background in embedded
[12:26] <AndyEsser> using M0's and Zynq's :)
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[12:44] <Vaizki> hmmh so UBSEDS13.. 434.600MHz telemetry was turned off earlier to save power and no APRS over the nordics.. so it's not transmitting anything even if it's here
[12:45] <Vaizki> see you in russia? :)
[12:48] <SA6BSS-Mike> it should have sent aprs and rtty over norway and only rtty over sweden iirc
[12:52] <Vaizki> well the page at https://github.com/bristol-seds/pico-tracker/blob/master/sim/geofence/geofence.ipynb with the geofencing generation excludes NO, SE, FI from aprs
[12:54] <Vaizki> but hmm yes it should send out contestia on 434.600 when inside the red area here http://www.bristol-seds.co.uk/assets/flights/13/geofences/ubseds13_uhf_geofence_world_millar_cylindrical.jpg
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[13:11] <adamgreig> just don't use C, solve a lot of these problems
[13:11] <adamgreig> oh i wasn't scrolled down fully
[13:11] <adamgreig> but wrt static analysis etc
[13:12] <adamgreig> I think C is less like an industrial chainsaw with no guards and more like a fifty year old and poor maintained chainsaw with no guards which is unnecessarily hard to use and dangerous compared to anything modern, but frankly no more capable and often much less capable
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[13:21] <Kryczek> adamgreig: I respectfully disagree. I would say C is more like a supercar i.e. not for everyone to drive without training, and if a moped is the right tool for the right job then feel free to use the moped
[13:21] <adamgreig> pants to that though
[13:22] <adamgreig> C is a danger to itself and should be taken behind the shed and shot
[13:22] <AndyEsser> :O
[13:22] <adamgreig> there are better ways to accomplish the same level of control, power, and flexibility
[13:22] <adamgreig> that don't irredeemably ruin your chances of success
[13:23] <adamgreig> find any successful large C program and I'll show you a more successful one written in something else
[13:23] <adamgreig> (mostly I will do that by pointing at the space shuttle control code)
[13:23] <Kryczek> adamgreig: these days I am building a minimalistic Debian Live image for embedded applications, and having it grow 150% just because the BlueZ (bluetooth stack) developers felt like rewriting tools from C to Python I do feel like something/someone should be taken behind a shed and shot indeed, but not C :)
[13:23] <adamgreig> obviously it is just about possible to write "safe" C
[13:23] <adamgreig> lol
[13:23] <adamgreig> just because python was the wrong choice
[13:24] <adamgreig> doesn't mean C was right
[13:24] <adamgreig> bluez was a horrid mess to begin with
[13:24] <Kryczek> I agree
[13:24] <adamgreig> suspect that's what needed shooting, not C or Python
[13:24] <chris_99> heh, how about nginx adamgreig
[13:24] <Kryczek> < adamgreig> find any successful large C program
[13:24] <Kryczek> adamgreig: the Linux kernel :p
[13:24] <adamgreig> chris_99: have you read the nginx source?
[13:24] <adamgreig> Kryczek: famous for having very few bugs or problems or vulnerabilities etc right? :P
[13:25] <chris_99> nope, but it's pretty successful and performant
[13:25] <Kryczek> adamgreig: what software doesn't?
[13:25] <adamgreig> space shuttle control code :P
[13:25] <adamgreig> chris_99: nginx is lovely, I use it on everything, it's much nicer than any competitors I've used
[13:25] <AndyEsser> ^
[13:25] <Kryczek> adamgreig: ok name 4 others :p
[13:25] <AndyEsser> it appears adamgreig and I agree on _one_ thing :)
[13:25] <adamgreig> but have you tried reading its source?
[13:25] <AndyEsser> nope
[13:25] <zuph> Kryczek: This: https://github.com/seL4/seL4
[13:26] <adamgreig> I wouldn't recommend it
[13:26] <zuph> And several other repos on that account :-p
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[13:26] <Kryczek> zuph: it is written in C... I think there is a misunderstanding? :)
[13:27] <Kryczek> zuph: I was responding to 13:23 < adamgreig> find any successful large C program and I'll show you a more successful one written in something else
[13:27] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: Windows :)
[13:27] <zuph> Ah, I thought you were responding to the bugs :-p
[13:28] <Kryczek> zuph: still thank you for the link, I did not know of seL4 and it sounds interesting
[13:28] <zuph> It is very interesting! More bug free than space shuttle code, even :-p
[13:29] <Kryczek> zuph: let's make a spaceship with it then! And then use poor security on the video feeds like http://samvartaka.github.io/cryptanalysis/2016/02/02/videocrypt-uavs *NOT* :)
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[13:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> Vaizki: richardion should realy have said someting about it not sending aprs , as I did not eaven bother to listen as there was no aprs comming in
[13:42] <gonzo_> that analogue video encyrption was in use for police helicopter feeds till only a couple of years ago
[13:43] <gonzo_> and what made them change was that they tx'ed in the bit of 2/3GHz that ofcom are selling off.
[13:43] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: any reason for no APRS over the nordics?
[13:43] Action: SM0ULC-Reb just hade poweroutage and the mobile network shut down within 3s. Impressive UPS.
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> Interference with rudolph.
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> SM0ULC-Reb: :)
[13:44] <AndyEsser> O come on.... *sigh*
[13:44] <AndyEsser> avr-gcc doesn't throw a warning (treated as error) on Windows
[13:44] <AndyEsser> but does on linux
[13:47] <AndyEsser> having to remove a const qualifier on a pointer passed to a method
[13:47] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[13:50] <gb73d> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96783368/LPD%20433%239MHZ%20WAM%202016.mp3
[13:50] <gb73d> rec of local low power device freq my wx stn is in there
[13:50] <gb73d> 50mS pulse
[14:03] <Laurenceb> so is anyone listening for UBSEDS on 434mhz?
[14:09] <SA6BSS-Mike> I am now but I guess its to late
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[14:13] <Laurenceb> yeah like looking for a needle in a haystack
[14:13] <Laurenceb> should have used HF
[14:13] Action: Laurenceb wonders how compact a HF helix antenna could be made
[14:13] <mattbrejza> put it inside the balloon
[14:13] <pcarmo> Hello... I am a newcomer to this IRC chat... and very enthusiastic with HAB... Can anybody tell me if/when in 2016 we will have a UKHAS Conference?
[14:14] <mattbrejza> yes
[14:14] <mattbrejza> summer
[14:14] <mattbrejza> not the same weekend as emf
[14:15] <mattbrejza> (well i say this but it hasnt actually been organised yet)
[14:15] <eroomde> so to summerise:
[14:15] <eroomde> if - yes
[14:15] <eroomde> when - not decided yet
[14:15] <eroomde> good typo too
[14:15] <pcarmo> The last 2 were in August, do you know if this year will be the same? Is there already a target month?
[14:16] <pcarmo> Is it open to everybody? Because I am not a member of the UKHAS...
[14:16] <mattbrejza> a good few of the people here will be at this: https://www.emfcamp.org/
[14:17] <eroomde> yes to everybody
[14:17] <eroomde> ukhas has no membership
[14:17] <eroomde> if you like i can make you a member now
[14:17] <eroomde> pcarmo: i officially annoint you as a member of ukhas
[14:17] <eroomde> welcome
[14:17] Action: AndyEsser waves the Dipole of Annointment
[14:18] <daveake> Someone go get the pile of Arduino libraries and the Hammer Of Justice
[14:19] <AndyEsser> "Especially function paramters should be declared with the type qualifier const wherever possible"
[14:19] <AndyEsser> woo! JPL agrees with me :)
[14:19] <pcarmo> Thanks for making me a member...
[14:21] <pcarmo> The emfcamp seems really very interesting... but I live in Germany... and I would say that I can only visit the UK one time in the same month...
[14:21] <Laurenceb> there is a special gold membership that allows you to post images to the irc channel
[14:21] <AndyEsser> just make it a long journey :)
[14:21] <Laurenceb> you need to pay me
[14:22] <superkuh> http://webcast.nc3-cdn.com/clients/mpg/2016/02/03/en/ - Wendelstein 7-X stellerator is about to be started up with hydrogen plasma for the first time. (livestream, t-30s)
[14:23] <eroomde> poof
[14:23] <eroomde> now angela merkel
[14:23] <eroomde> lovely
[14:23] <eroomde> right back to work
[14:24] <mfa298> maybe we should put a statement on the wiki "The only requirement for becoming a member of UKHAS is being able to join the #highaltitude irc channel. By joining this channel you will become a member"
[14:26] <eroomde> there is no membership
[14:27] <pcarmo> Now that I am a member... how can I know when the date for the conference is announced? Pinging the site with a TBD frequency?
[14:28] <SA6BSS-Mike> joing ukhas google mail list https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas,
[14:29] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[14:29] <pcarmo> OK. Thanks...
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[14:40] <Laurenceb> PS-58 still going
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[15:22] Nick change: M0JSN -> jonsowman
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[16:28] <tweetBot> @daveake: SSDV with re-sends of missing packets in current and previous images, with priority to previous (lower) image #UKHAS https://t.co/hiQPUpGaN3
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[16:51] <gb73d> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96783368/M1ELK%2070CM%20NFM%20WALK%20TESTS%202016.mp3
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[16:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0311 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[17:01] <AndyEsser> night all
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[17:12] <Ian_> gb73d M1ELK might be surveying a route for a cycle ride, run or similar event I guess. Poss RAYNET user?
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[17:18] <gb73d> testing loft gp
[17:18] <gb73d> local walk w hh
[17:18] <gb73d> rec on vr5000 at home
[17:19] <gb73d> abt 4 miles roundtrip
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[17:21] <gb73d> hh is kenwood f7e + supergainer whip
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[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[19:14] <Ian_> Good evening
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[19:18] <Ian_> I see that someone was enquiring about this year's UKHAS conference already . . .
[19:33] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> I got first wspr from ps-58 for the night 9062km :) -27db
[19:34] Nick change: SA6BSS-Mike|2 -> SA6BSS-Mike
[19:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> trying latest version of sdr-console 2.3 just released
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[20:11] <Vaizki> friend of mine ordered upu's ublox m8q board for the raspi to make a NTP server.. so I measured the PPS difference between my ebay symmetricom gpsdo 1pps coax output and the m8q module with sarantel antenna TP pin
[20:11] <Vaizki> http://imgur.com/a/lm6dK
[20:12] <Vaizki> they were initially about 150ns apart, now after a few hours they are 120ns apart.. and 45ns of that is due to 10m antenna coax on the symmetricom
[20:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> Time you got that calibrated then!
[20:12] <Vaizki> :)
[20:13] <Vaizki> but maybe a 100ns difference is not a killer deviance for a home NTP server :D
[20:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah but next week it will be 120ns, then 140 and in no time you might have to just ditch it!
[20:14] <Vaizki> which one? :)
[20:14] <Vaizki> a man with 2 clocks never knows what time it is
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[20:15] <Vaizki> although there is a 25MHz timing signal transmitter close by that blips every second.. hmmm
[20:17] <Vaizki> maybe I have to rig that up somehow as well ;)
[20:18] <Vaizki> trimble Resolution T GPS Timing Receiver specs say.. Extremely accurate 1-PPS output, synchronized to GPS or UTC within 15 ns (one sigma)
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[20:47] <tweetBot> @M0DTS: With modules from @AnthonyStirk and setup info from @daveake website i now have a 434/868MHz LoRa Gateway ready for some speedy ssdv #UKHAS
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[21:12] <fsphil> 300bit/s is enough for anyone...
[21:12] <chris_99> heh
[21:14] <daveake> A picture is worth a thousand words. But unfortunately takes the space of 10,000 of them
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[21:26] <fsphil> I wonder what kind of 868mhz antenna he's using
[21:26] <fsphil> his setup isn't usually subtle
[21:27] <daveake> hah
[21:27] <daveake> It's nice seeing the missing image packets get filled in
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> a school beat us btw
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> a school here in the city flew a balloon (one of the old brown ones) on monday
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> but GSM tracker only and stuff
[21:31] <daveake> yeah that doesn't count :)
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:31] <craag> Last time he tracked my 868 flight, he used a 4m dish iirc
[21:32] <daveake> w t f ....
[21:32] <daveake> I needn't have bothered writing all that re-send code then :)
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> they claimed to fly to 33 km and I think that was announced before recovery and checking data recorder
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> new article today says "25 km"
[21:48] <fsphil> they probably trusted a prediction
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[22:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-58 after 0314 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-58
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[22:10] <R34lB0rg> yeah!
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[00:00] --- Thu Feb 4 2016