highaltitude.log.20160119

[00:01] <Laurenceb_> more likely "we have added Falcon meat to your shipment"
[00:02] <daveake> Amazon Prime Meat
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[00:04] <mfa298> no doubt that will add an extra $20 to the delivery charge
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[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03bradybull_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=bradybull_chase
[00:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-58 after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-58
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[07:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03o rahman_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=o%20rahman_chase
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[09:01] <AndyEsser> morning chaps
[09:01] <UpuWork> morning
[09:04] <daveake> morning
[09:08] <AndyEsser> woke up thinking it was Wednesday :(
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[09:13] <habby> daveake, my clear.txt file is not deleting telemetry.txt or gps.txt Looking at the Configuration page on the PITS website, it is looking for the folders 'tracker/download' and 'tracker/keep' to delete, which do not exist. Also, nothing is being written to telemetry.txt or gps.txt
[09:13] <daveake> latest version ?
[09:13] <habby> yes
[09:13] <daveake> ok I'll take a look
[09:13] <habby> thank you
[09:15] <daveake> oh 1 sec, clear.txt is supposed to delete the images not the log files
[09:15] <habby> It mioght be somethign to do witht he Config.Camera conditional (if there are tqwo cameras to be configured for now?
[09:15] <daveake> That said, it ought to do those really
[09:15] <daveake> you can't have 2 cameras configured
[09:16] <habby> Line 662 and 663 have it deleting the log files
[09:16] <daveake> and image files go to the same places regardless of if it's a USB or CSI webcam
[09:16] <daveake> ok
[09:16] <habby> I just thought, because you have built in supoprt for 2 canmeras then that may be causing the issue
[09:16] <daveake> no it's a choice of one or the other
[09:16] <habby> OK
[09:16] <habby> line 661, too
[09:18] <habby> So, nothing to do with latest versions support for a choice of cameras meaning the conditional 'if (Config.Camera)' is not being triggered?
[09:19] <daveake> No it just has a value of 'U' or '1' or whatever, instead of 1/0
[09:20] <habby> In pisky.txt, we have camera=Y, so that should be OK, then
[09:21] <daveake> I have a test to do later; I'll pull the current code and check this
[09:22] <habby> Thank you
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[09:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03QM-SkyPi-test_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=QM-SkyPi-test_chase
[09:32] <AndyEsser> I now have "SkyPi" stuck in my head, but to the tune of Stingray
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[09:35] <Mark_B> Good morning
[09:36] <Mark_B> daveake, are you still around?
[09:36] <daveake> yeah, I should diet
[09:36] <AndyEsser> hehe
[09:36] Action: AndyEsser chuckles
[09:36] <Mark_B> :) We've all just been through Christmas
[09:37] <Mark_B> May I request a bit of advice?
[09:37] <Mark_B> I just collected a payload I lost last July
[09:37] <daveake> 1 question per day, and that was it, sorry :)
[09:37] <daveake> Oh nice
[09:37] <Mark_B> From a nice chap on the island of Texel - Netherlands
[09:37] <daveake> No you can't return the pits board :)
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[09:37] <Mark_B> I:)
[09:38] <Mark_B> It's a great story
[09:38] <Mark_B> The Dutch media are quite interested
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[09:38] <Mark_B> And want to interview me (by phone) later today
[09:38] <daveake> cool
[09:38] <Mark_B> Is it OK if I reference UKHAS website etc?
[09:39] <daveake> ukhas is everyone's "property"
[09:39] <Mark_B> Iack
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[09:41] <Mark_B> kk paranoid head on. May it attract those who don't understand the activity
[09:41] <gonzo_> we have plenty of them already, but we are working on them!
[09:41] <AndyEsser> sorry!
[09:41] Action: AndyEsser heads towards the door
[09:42] <habby> * Follows AndyEsser
[09:42] <AndyEsser> stalker
[09:42] <Mark_B> e.g. :) - not what I meant. I mean troll type attention
[09:42] <AndyEsser> ;)
[09:42] <Mark_B> ;)
[09:42] <gonzo_> hehe, you're not quite in that group. You have some working kit.
[09:42] <AndyEsser> Mark_B: I suspect if it does then the ban hammer will come down
[09:42] <Mark_B> Ack
[09:43] <gonzo_> when ed gives himself chan op, it's like someone racking a pump action shotgun, as a final warning!
[09:43] <AndyEsser> ha
[09:43] <Mark_B> OK. If the oportunity presents itself, I'll point toward the fantastic UKHAS community and website
[09:44] Action: AndyEsser goes and does his hair
[09:44] <Mark_B> Thanks daveake et al
[09:44] <gonzo_> glad you have hair to do!
[09:44] <AndyEsser> hehe
[09:44] <AndyEsser> hairdresser did point out it's receding :(
[09:45] <gonzo_> the point at which mine was still economical to pay someone to do, passed long since
[09:47] <Mark_B> Have a good day
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[09:59] <habby> daveake I've killed the tracker and restarted it with ./tracker so I can monitor the output.
[10:00] <daveake> ok
[10:00] <habby> I hjave set up the pisky.txt file as I want it, but the changes I made don't appear to have carried through? The payload name is even still changeme
[10:00] <daveake> You edited /boot/pisky.txt ?
[10:00] <habby> I assume I have not done something fundamental!
[10:00] <habby> Yes, I edited that
[10:01] <daveake> check it
[10:01] <habby> Have checked it
[10:01] <daveake> "CHANGEME" only exists in the pisky.txt file not the program
[10:02] <habby> definitely changed
[10:02] <habby> also changed the full_low_width and height (as discussed a few days ago)
[10:03] <daveake> I've had this exact same report before, and that time the person edited ./boot/pisky.txt and not /boot/pisky,txt
[10:06] <habby> Where is ./boot/pisky.txt compared to the other one?
[10:07] <habby> I'm in /home/pi/pits/boot
[10:07] <daveake> OK well you're in the wrong folder
[10:07] <habby> *hangs head
[10:08] <daveake> From http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/index.php?id=configuration ...
[10:08] <daveake> Edit using this command (or replace “vi” with “nano” if you prefer that):
[10:08] <daveake> sudo vi /boot/pisky.txt
[10:10] <daveake> If you put clear.txt in /home/pi/pits/boot then that would explain why it did nothing
[10:10] <habby> Got it. Was using GUI with students. My bad. Does that explain why the clear.txt not working?
[10:10] <habby> Thank you
[10:10] <daveake> yes
[10:11] Action: daveake removes todo item
[10:11] <eroomde> probably not the best advice for a teaching environemtn, but a good command is
[10:13] <eroomde> echo "alias nano=\"echo \"grow a pair\"\"" >> ~/.bashrc
[10:13] <daveake> lol
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[10:13] <eroomde> or whatever the gender-neutral admonishment is
[10:14] <SpeedEvil> Works for both
[10:15] <fsphil> grow a pear
[10:16] <habby> I assume that's a vim thing?
[10:17] <eroomde> yes
[10:17] <eroomde> there's a silly (and annoying) tradition that someone's choice of text editor is something you're allowed to be rude to them about
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[10:19] <eroomde> i play along
[10:19] <daveake> One day there will be movies called "editor wars" and "return of the emacs"
[10:19] Action: SpeedEvil remembers when 'Eight Megabytes...' was an admonition, not a vain hope for a text editor.
[10:21] <eroomde> $ du -h /usr/bin/vim
[10:21] <eroomde> 936K/usr/bin/vim
[10:21] <eroomde> it's squashed the tab
[10:22] <SpeedEvil> Well, yes. But those are not text editors for 'normal people'
[10:22] <eroomde> yes they are
[10:22] <eroomde> it's the one correct text editor
[10:22] <eroomde> for editing text well
[10:22] <craag> 568K/usr/bin/gedit
[10:22] <craag> :P
[10:22] <eroomde> yes but gedit is shit compared to vim
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[10:23] <craag> yes I do agree
[10:25] <cm13g09> eroomde: :D I enjoy using Vim
[10:25] <cm13g09> (usually until I mistakenly end up not in command mode and don't realise :/ )
[10:26] <eroomde> i enjoy it in the same way that i enjoy using english
[10:26] <eroomde> in as much as having to edit text with something else is unnatural and annoying and much much slower
[10:26] <WillDWork> :wq randomly in my MS Word docs.... oops
[10:26] <gonzo_> was just about to say the same
[10:27] <eroomde> i'm trying to get conversational emacs
[10:27] <Vooloo> 188K /bin/nano
[10:27] <Vooloo> do I win?
[10:27] <eroomde> no
[10:27] <eroomde> because nano
[10:27] <gonzo_> I keep locking up a dos box over in france by typing ls, rather than dir
[10:27] <gonzo_> bit sure what it does but they get upset]
[10:27] <gonzo_> not sure
[10:28] <criticalmass> Morning chaps. Bit chilly on the way in this morning, which got me thinking. How much does the temperature effect flights calculations?
[10:28] <eroomde> criticalmass: i had a thopught too
[10:28] <eroomde> during a match last night
[10:29] <eroomde> those status LEDs i said were a software fix, i didn't see that they were tied to connectors
[10:29] <eroomde> so presumably the io lines drive Actual Stuff aswell as the LEDs
[10:29] <eroomde> so you can't just invert the software logic to put the LED on when you want
[10:29] <AndyEsser> eroomde: ¬¬
[10:30] <eroomde> am I right? Do you therefore want to me flip them on the layout?
[10:30] <Vaizki> criticalmass, above the tropopause it's always chilly so yes there is some effect from the weather us earth-bound beings experience but I suspect it's less than you'd think
[10:31] <AndyEsser> criticalmass: just make sure to put a jumper on the payload :)
[10:33] <Vaizki> cold air is denser than warm air so with the same size envelope you'd get more lift in the cold, right..
[10:33] <criticalmass> Cheers Vaizki. AndyEsser, I'm more worried about the effect of the cold on the launch crew. Extra jumpers for all :
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[10:33] <Vaizki> not sure about density of helium at "chilly" temps
[10:35] <AndyEsser> criticalmass: bacon sandwiches, coffee, tea, etc as well :)
[10:35] <eroomde> it will behave fairly ideally
[10:35] <eroomde> as gases go
[10:35] <Vostok> ass gases go
[10:35] <AndyEsser> criticalmass: at least you have a crew - currently looking at just myself for my first launch... might have to create some sort of filling/release platform :)
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[10:36] <criticalmass> eroomde: I'll have a think about it. Having had a look at the schematics again last night, I think you're right. If it's too big of a job to change the board around, I'll either live with it or take the leds to 3v3 'off board'.
[10:36] <Vooloo> is there a way to get the artificial horizon with a Pi?
[10:36] <eroomde> i would suggest phonign a friend si the technically better solution that making a platform
[10:36] <Vooloo> attitude indicator
[10:36] <eroomde> criticalmass: i don't think it'll be too big a job at all
[10:36] <criticalmass> AndyEsser: where are you based?
[10:36] <AndyEsser> eroomde: none that are either close enough or would be interested in standing in a field in Wales
[10:37] <eroomde> Vooloo: you could use an accelerometer
[10:37] <daveake> I'm near Wales
[10:37] <AndyEsser> daveake: wrong end of wales ;)
[10:37] <daveake> Granted thast may not help
[10:37] <AndyEsser> North Wales > South Wales :)
[10:37] <AndyEsser> hhee
[10:37] <eroomde> the accelerometer measures acceleration along a line. gravity is an acceleration
[10:38] <eroomde> so if you angle the accelerometer so that its sense axis is aligned with gravity, it will measure 1g of gravity
[10:38] <AndyEsser> daveake: Bristol?
[10:38] <eroomde> if you then flip it 180 degrees, it will measure -1g of gravity
[10:38] <daveake> Ross On Wye
[10:38] <AndyEsser> Ah
[10:38] <eroomde> and you can then use that to measure inclination - between -1g and 1g
[10:38] <eroomde> with 0g being level
[10:39] <criticalmass> eroomde: as long as it doesn't put you out or waste too much of your time, I'd appreciate the assistance.
[10:39] <eroomde> | = 1g
[10:39] <eroomde> _ = 0g
[10:39] <eroomde> / = 0.5g
[10:39] <eroomde> etc
[10:39] <AndyEsser> daveake: Thanks for the offer, I think for my first mini-launch I'll just try and convince me Brother and his Wife it'll be a fun day out to wales :)
[10:39] <eroomde> criticalmass: on it
[10:40] <eroomde> criticalmass: so to be clear, i'm going to connect the LEDs to 3.3V and swap their direction
[10:40] <criticalmass> When are you thinking of launching AndyEsser?
[10:40] <Vostok> depends on your font what g '/' will read ;)
[10:40] <eroomde> so that they turn on when the i/o pin is set to low
[10:40] <eroomde> correct?
[10:40] <eroomde> on each of LEDs 1-5?
[10:41] <eroomde> Vostok: yes indeed :)
[10:45] <eroomde> criticalmass: need answers b4 doing
[10:46] <criticalmass> eroomde: Right, I'm at work now and don't have access to the schematics. Having the got about it though, I believe it's just the LEDs connected to the serial port lines. Tbh, this is a board that I've adopted from an instructable and that was a recommendation of the designer. Won't really know for sure until I build and test I suppose.
[10:46] <criticalmass> *having thought about it
[10:46] <eroomde> ok
[10:47] <eroomde> i'll hang fire then
[10:47] <eroomde> you can probably do a green-wire mod on the real thing if you want to change it
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[10:54] <mfa298> reading back slightly, there is such a thing as gvim (graphical vim) for those the insist on a gui editor. Other advantage is there are packages for that on windows as well so you're never far from a decent text editor.
[10:55] <craag> I tried gvim once
[10:55] <craag> once
[10:55] <eroomde> yes, but can you pipe through to a terminal?
[10:55] <AndyEsser> mfa298: but... windows has Notepad, what more do you need ;)
[10:55] <eroomde> :! whatever
[10:55] <eroomde> i use that a lot
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[10:56] <AndyEsser> hmm, just been invited to give a talk at the University of Chester in March
[10:56] <eroomde> as vim is the text editing bit of using a unixy command line generally
[10:57] <AndyEsser> can I get a launch done... and nice photos before then...
[10:57] Action: AndyEsser ponders
[10:57] <eroomde> AndyEsser: about hab?
[10:57] <AndyEsser> eroomde: it's a workshop/talk day for their CS and Game Dev students
[10:57] <AndyEsser> they've said the talk can be on anything
[10:57] <mfa298> eroomde: probably on linux versions, not sure about on windows. I tend to only use gvim on windows, terminal vim works as I want on Unixy systems
[10:57] <AndyEsser> was just thinking could tack it on at the end to show other cool uses of programming :)
[10:57] <eroomde> yeah
[10:58] <eroomde> or maybe compare and contrast embedded with game programming
[10:58] <eroomde> life with only 1k of ram etc
[10:58] <AndyEsser> heh
[10:58] <eroomde> and no malloc
[10:58] <AndyEsser> but... I use malloc
[10:58] <AndyEsser> I think
[10:58] Action: AndyEsser thinks back
[10:58] <AndyEsser> ah no - think I removed that
[10:58] <AndyEsser> :)
[10:58] <eroomde> yeah good
[10:59] <eroomde> don't use dynamic memory management if very constrained microcontrollers
[10:59] <eroomde> unless you really really have to
[10:59] <eroomde> which i don't believe you ever do
[10:59] <AndyEsser> http://sdtimes.com/nasas-10-rules-developing-safety-critical-code/
[10:59] <AndyEsser> #3
[10:59] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:00] <eroomde> yes
[11:00] <eroomde> and turn on everything gcc can throw at it
[11:00] <AndyEsser> pretty sure I run with -Wall
[11:00] <AndyEsser> need to check the optimisations
[11:00] <eroomde> and pedantic and werror
[11:00] <qyx> -Wall is not enough
[11:00] <eroomde> yes
[11:00] <AndyEsser> might've turned them all off to look at some assembly the other week
[11:00] <eroomde> wall is, sadly, not all
[11:00] <eroomde> at all
[11:00] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:00] <Vaizki> malloc on avr? why does such a thing even exist? :O
[11:01] <AndyEsser> "function pointers are not permitted"
[11:01] <AndyEsser> aww...
[11:01] Action: AndyEsser removes his CLI
[11:02] <AndyEsser> I really need to get my avr code into my CI + Test environment
[11:03] <eroomde> i don't know how well this kind of thing lends itself to CI and automatic testing
[11:03] <eroomde> unless you have some sort of hardware in the loop thing on a server somewhere
[11:03] <AndyEsser> well, doesn't have to be testing on the metal
[11:03] <eroomde> or (teehee fun) a full avr core simulation bolted into some physics simulation envirnment
[11:03] <AndyEsser> can be as simple as static analysis
[11:03] <Vaizki> and how does avr malloc avoid stack-heap collisions? this is now bugging me.. :O
[11:04] <eroomde> avr-libc has knobs you can tweak
[11:04] <eroomde> __malloc_heap_start and __malloc_heap_end
[11:04] <eroomde> you can do it
[11:04] <eroomde> but the whole things seems to be in very poor taste
[11:04] <eroomde> and thus, to be avoided
[11:05] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I'd be quite interested to work on either a Test platform that runs the code on a bit of hardware - and runs a variety of tests on input/output and reports results
[11:05] <AndyEsser> for example, sending a valid and then invalid i2c ublox message down to the avr
[11:05] <AndyEsser> and checking the response
[11:05] <zyp> Vaizki, by growing them towards each other
[11:05] <zyp> Vaizki, when they collide, you're out of memory and then you have bigger problems
[11:05] <Vaizki> yes and that's a normal thing to watch out for even with static variable allocations colliding with stack
[11:05] <eroomde> i believe it's included partly because it not being included might make people feel a bit unsure of the world if coming from pc-land, but for a betetr technical reason, for use with external ram
[11:06] <eroomde> where you might want to put a heap
[11:06] <Vaizki> but if you malloc() and free() on a heap like avr's.. you will fragment and then die horribly
[11:06] <Vaizki> ooo ok external ram makes more sense
[11:06] <zyp> it's easy to write a sbrk() that maintains a healthy margin towards the stack, but you can't really stop the stack from growing into the heap
[11:06] <eroomde> i agree with this
[11:06] <eroomde> i mean, you can stop it
[11:07] <eroomde> but only by being very careful with how you structure everything
[11:07] <zyp> you could do a stack check at the beginning of any frame allocation, but that's pretty heavy
[11:08] <Vaizki> ugh
[11:08] <Vaizki> so the answer to my question on how it prevents stack-heap collisions is that it allows you to set a hard limit for the heap end
[11:09] <zyp> that's the simple answer, yes
[11:09] <Vaizki> which is a simple and somewhat reasonable way to do it that everyone will understand.. and quickly realize that malloc() is doomed without external ram
[11:09] <zyp> not having a heap is just a subset of that, by setting the limit for the heap end equal to the heap start
[11:09] <zyp> so it's not any worse than that
[11:10] <zyp> and fragmentation isn't necessarily a huge problem
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[11:10] <zyp> fragmentation is only a problem if you have long-lived objects that end up being spread out across your heap
[11:11] <zyp> if everything eventually gets freed, the fragments gets reassembled into a contiguous heap
[11:11] <Vaizki> sure
[11:12] <zyp> keeping a bit of extra memory to account for temporary fragmentation might not be any more costly than the overhead of fixed sized pools for various object types
[11:12] <zyp> since the overhead of a heap is shared between all dynamic object types
[11:13] <Vaizki> avr-libc uses headers in free blocks to chain them together
[11:13] <zyp> I'd dare say that a pool model is usually even more costly, but allows you to prioritize how many objects you may allocate
[11:14] <Vaizki> so it uses no extra memory for a free list
[11:14] <zyp> of course
[11:14] <Vaizki> well I'm kind of new to embedded programming here :)
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[11:16] <eroomde> people with a hdl background usually make better new-to-embedded than pc systems programming background people
[11:16] <eroomde> where i mean really embedded rather than raspberry-pi embedded which is just a normal PC plus a few moore's law iterations
[11:16] <Vaizki> hdl?
[11:16] <zyp> yeah
[11:17] <eroomde> hardware description language
[11:17] <zyp> a lot of embedded code ends up being FSMs that are polled regularly, which is not too different from HDL FSMs
[11:18] <Vaizki> well at least I started early enough that you had to do things in assembly to get some stuff done on a pc..
[11:18] <Vaizki> but by the time I got to Uni it was getting to the point where people were put on Java courses to learn about programming
[11:20] <Vaizki> not saying that's wrong, but coming down to the metal from a stack that high can be challenging for people
[11:22] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I've had the benefit that I started programming with BASIC, asm and C - however, the last few years, have rarely touched that (except for C++ engine stuff - but that doesn't touch the metal)
[11:22] <AndyEsser> so having to unlearn a lot of bad habits
[11:26] <eroomde> "I've had the benefit that I started programming with BASIC"
[11:26] <eroomde> don't often read that
[11:28] <AndyEsser> it's better than many starting languages
[11:28] <AndyEsser> don't poke holes for the sake of it ;)
[11:28] <AndyEsser> you knew the point I was making
[11:29] <Vaizki> well if you have the background in C & asm, even if you don't excercise those muscles any more I think it leaves some connections in your thinking that can be very helpful when stuff refuses to work etc
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[11:29] <Vaizki> like blaming compiler bugs for everything ;)
[11:29] <AndyEsser> I've also found the OS dev work I've done to be extremely helpful as well
[11:29] <AndyEsser> as it forced an understanding of hardware, and debugging asm
[11:30] <AndyEsser> time to ride the timber workshop for an offcut to make a good ruler for my whiteboard
[11:30] <AndyEsser> back in a bit
[11:34] <AndyEsser> success!
[11:34] <AndyEsser> s/ride/raid
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[11:43] <AndyEsser> hmm... Thornton Science Park nearby...
[11:43] <AndyEsser> has space for aerospace, R&D, science type labs and workshops
[11:43] Action: AndyEsser looks at costs
[11:45] <eroomde> science parks are usually not cheap
[11:45] <AndyEsser> indeed
[11:45] <eroomde> i'd find an old shed which is sealable and dry
[11:45] <eroomde> and has 3 phase
[11:45] <AndyEsser> probably still better looking at the canal workshops until I have some form of income from this stuff ;)
[11:45] <eroomde> yeah
[11:46] <AndyEsser> BTW - if I add an FTDI to a board, am I right in thinking then it would just need USB to a PC type thing, and that's basically the USB->Serial converter in one?
[11:46] <eroomde> you'll be wanting to spend proper capital on tool chests and stuff to help stay organized
[11:46] <eroomde> otherwise it's total chaos
[11:46] <AndyEsser> hehe
[11:46] <eroomde> exactly so with ftdi
[11:46] <AndyEsser> eroomde: cool
[11:46] <eroomde> the chips take usb in one side and serial in the other
[11:46] <eroomde> you can get usb cables with builtin ftdi chips
[11:47] <AndyEsser> so I could have a box with a USB port on - and just plug that in like a normal peripheral
[11:47] <eroomde> so the cable itself is usb-serial
[11:47] <AndyEsser> much neater
[11:47] <eroomde> i prefer that often
[11:47] <AndyEsser> Yea - I have a USB->Serial cable
[11:47] <AndyEsser> and a USB->TTL Level Serial cable
[11:47] <eroomde> as it saves adding a chip to every pcb
[11:47] <AndyEsser> can't get the latter to work atm
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[11:47] <AndyEsser> well this FTDI would be a system designed to sit connected to a PC etc
[11:47] <AndyEsser> not a flight computer or anything
[11:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 031_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=1_chase
[11:48] <eroomde> ah righty
[11:48] <eroomde> then yes
[11:48] <eroomde> the chipoid is what you want
[11:48] <AndyEsser> cheers
[11:49] <AndyEsser> And I read somewhere you can use an Arduino as an ISP programmer for the AVR I believe?
[11:49] <AndyEsser> (which suggests you can use an AVR to program an AVR)
[11:50] <Vaizki> can't get a usb-ttl cable to work?
[11:50] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: driver issue
[11:50] <Vaizki> oh then it's probably not a FTDI.. :)
[11:53] <eroomde> AndyEsser: yes
[11:53] <AndyEsser> excellent, thanks
[11:53] <AndyEsser> and thus ends me thinking about automated hardware based testing until the future
[11:53] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:56] <Vaizki> avr to program avr works but can be a bit fiddly.. at least was for me
[11:59] <Vaizki> usb asp clones are relatively cheap programmers.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/USBASP-USBISP-AVR-Programmer-Adapter-10-Pin-Cable-USB-ATMEGA8-ATMEGA128-/400985446258?hash=item5d5c985772:g:yTUAAOSweW5VUE2z
[11:59] <Vaizki> not sure if that's the best one to buy but they are cheap as chips
[12:00] <eroomde> if you really want to go into more automated testing, i would consider using jtag instead of isp
[12:00] <eroomde> you can then debug
[12:00] <eroomde> and/or poke around at the internal state to see if it's as you think it should be
[12:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hr_v_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hr_v_chase
[12:06] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: the reason for looking at programming via AVR - is for automated programming/testing of a chip, within a system - not for me to program the chip
[12:06] <AndyEsser> I already have 2 ISP programmers
[12:06] <AndyEsser> eroomde: cheers - will look at JTAG when the time comes
[12:10] <eroomde> you can also (you probably realise) write stuff you, for example, hardware configuration registers through jtag directly
[12:10] <eroomde> so you can talk to your hardware and peripherals without needing to write firmware
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[12:12] <AndyEsser> Ah ok - so can have the hardware/peripherals stuff completely controlled via the PC side, rather than having firmware on my control uC which then interprets commands?
[12:12] <eroomde> yes
[12:14] <eroomde> all possible with the power of the force^H^H^H^H^H jtag
[12:16] <AndyEsser> err...
[12:16] <AndyEsser> quite
[12:23] <AndyEsser> o good lord, it's been 1.5 years since Jenkins was running on my home server...
[12:23] <AndyEsser> might just sack it off and start from scratch
[12:23] <AndyEsser> ha
[12:24] <Laurenceb> I'd probably avoid running PC side unless you really know what you are doing
[12:24] <Laurenceb> timing is probably going to be off
[12:24] <Laurenceb> that could cause "weird stuff"
[12:24] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, just install docker and use the official jenkins image
[12:24] <Vaizki> it's a snap
[12:25] <AndyEsser> eww
[12:25] <Vaizki> well it depends of course if you want to spend time tinkering with jenkins or getting stuff done with it ;)
[12:26] <AndyEsser> Jenkins is easy to set up
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[12:26] <AndyEsser> if I use a container manager like docker - all the details are abstracted away and I don't know what's going on
[12:26] <gonzo_> what hapopened to the old days of burning an eprom?
[12:27] <Laurenceb> container management on AVR ?
[12:27] <Laurenceb> sounds like a sensible idea
[12:28] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb: we weren't discussing having a container manager on the AVR
[12:28] <Laurenceb> /troll
[12:28] <AndyEsser> ah
[12:28] <Vaizki> well docker is not THAT abstractive.. just read the dockerfile and you know what's in it :P
[12:28] <Vaizki> https://github.com/jenkinsci/docker/blob/master/Dockerfile
[12:29] <Vaizki> but as I said, if you like to bathe in the details, it's a choice :)
[12:29] <AndyEsser> I do
[12:29] <AndyEsser> I abhor black boxes
[12:30] <Vaizki> personally with all the chatting on IRC there's no time to dig into every tool really deep
[12:30] <Vaizki> especially if there's a JVM involved
[12:30] <Vaizki> then again I don't know the chrome and vanadium content of my spanners either so maybe I should go sit in the corner now.. :)
[12:31] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb: how's crossing the Karman line going?
[12:32] <Laurenceb> I've been busy with work for a month or so
[12:32] <Laurenceb> but before that I seemed to have solved the spin issue and got ignition working and a <1 gram tracker designed
[12:33] <AndyEsser> nice :)
[12:33] <AndyEsser> <1g ?!
[12:33] <Laurenceb> so hopefully when I restart on it in a few weeks I should be able to make some more progress
[12:33] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:33] <Laurenceb> 868mhz CW beacon
[12:34] <AndyEsser> cool
[12:34] <AndyEsser> o0o lunchtime
[12:34] <AndyEsser> back in a bit folks
[12:36] <Laurenceb> https://www.flickr.com/photos/spacexphotos/24423604506/
[12:36] <Vaizki> sooo close
[12:37] <Laurenceb> I was surprised that the pistons lock into place
[12:37] <Laurenceb> or dont as the case may be...
[12:38] <Laurenceb> would have thought it'd lead to less shock absorption - maybe its a combination of gas shocks and locking - they lock into place in a slightly compressed position
[12:39] <Laurenceb> ooh
[12:39] <Laurenceb> https://www.flickr.com/photos/spacexphotos/24382360351/
[12:39] <Laurenceb> looks like the arm that failed was jamming on something
[12:40] <Laurenceb> extension seems to be too slow
[12:40] <Laurenceb> bet thats how they are sure of the failure cause
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[12:41] <Laurenceb> could be perspective but it doesnt look quite right
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[12:46] <Vaizki> heh, the manual for my frequency counter is on keysight site (great) but it's a scanned copy with loads of scribbles on some pages and hand-written corrections
[12:47] <Vaizki> somehow I imagined the HP guys would have managed to archive at least one clean copy of everything they make..
[12:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03UBSEDS13 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS13
[12:49] <Vaizki> http://i.imgur.com/oFZ70Ki.png
[12:49] <Vaizki> example page
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[13:46] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4V1d882ss&feature=youtu.be
[13:47] <AndyEsser> YouTube title: KSP - SpaceX Falcon 9 Barge Landing fixed
[13:49] <adamgreig> lol I like this version http://gfycat.com/UnrealisticUnhealthyFrilledlizard
[13:50] <AndyEsser> heh
[13:50] <Laurenceb> I still think hot air ballute
[13:50] <UpuWork> thats amazing adamgreig
[13:50] <Laurenceb> but VTVL is probably cheaper if they ever get to tons of flights
[13:51] <Laurenceb> aiui hot air ballute was prototyped with sounding rockets in the 60s
[13:52] <daveake> http://thumbsnap.com/s/ANgYJaLb.jpg
[13:53] <AndyEsser> ha
[13:53] <eroomde> we are soon to get a new default matplotlib colourmap
[13:53] <eroomde> behold
[13:53] <eroomde> http://bids.github.io/colormap/images/screenshots/option_d.png
[13:53] <Laurenceb> sigh
[13:54] <Laurenceb> thats like one line to swap in matlab
[13:54] <AndyEsser> pwetty
[13:54] <AndyEsser> it has built in support for colour blindness?
[13:54] <eroomde> Laurenceb: and also in matplotlib
[13:54] <eroomde> i don;t understand your point
[13:54] <eroomde> perhaps you could explain it here
[13:54] <eroomde> AndyEsser: yes
[13:54] <eroomde> that's one of the reasons for it
[13:54] <Laurenceb> why is default colormap relevant is the point
[13:55] <eroomde> because most people stick with defaults
[13:55] <Laurenceb> fair enough
[13:55] <adamgreig> and the old default is kind of pants
[13:55] <eroomde> so if you want to make the greatest difference to the total number of data visualisations floating around in the wild, change the default
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[13:56] <adamgreig> people have been doing this for ages, see prettyplotlib and seaborn
[13:56] <Laurenceb> this is surely the lightest way to do recovery http://lhldigital.lindahall.org/cdm/ref/collection/parachute/id/1082
[13:56] <eroomde> cf. (hah) latex. good defaults, but you're free to go to war if you want against it
[13:57] <Laurenceb> falcon 9 has horrifying mass penalty
[13:57] <eroomde> 'surely' is probably quite a strong claim when it comes to adding completely new subsystems to rocket boosters
[13:58] <Laurenceb> but envelopes dont last very many flights, and recovery boats are relatively expensive - VTVL return to launch site has got to be cheaper
[13:58] <Laurenceb> well it doesnt need 80 tonnes of fuel
[13:58] <Laurenceb> it needs 0 tonnes :D
[13:59] <eroomde> i think you are confused
[13:59] <eroomde> there will be a mass penalty (and correspending e^mass_penalty fual-wise) for any new system
[13:59] <eroomde> 2) they're not optimising for mass
[13:59] <eroomde> they're optimising for cost
[13:59] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[14:00] <Laurenceb> using the scaling laws from the paravulcoon research the system would weight less than the landing legs
[14:00] <AndyEsser> eroomde: you showed me LaTeX in notebook on the weekend, but can't seem to figure it out now
[14:00] <AndyEsser> web says just 'put it inside $$'
[14:00] <AndyEsser> so for eg
[14:00] <eroomde> for equations yes
[14:00] <AndyEsser> $$c = \sqrt{8mg}
[14:00] <eroomde> $$
[14:00] <AndyEsser> o derp
[14:00] <Laurenceb> thats how you format an equation
[14:01] <Laurenceb> or more correctly - its one way tog et math mode
[14:01] <Laurenceb> *to get
[14:01] <AndyEsser> invalid syntax on the first $$
[14:01] <eroomde> i think $c$ or $$ on its own line to begin a whole block
[14:01] <eroomde> i might be wrong - it's sort of muscle memory so i can't recall it exactly
[14:01] <eroomde> oh
[14:01] <eroomde> have you changed the cell to be markdown?
[14:01] <eroomde> not python
[14:01] <AndyEsser> ahhh
[14:01] <eroomde> that's probably it
[14:02] <Laurenceb> nasaspaceflight forums are amazing
[14:03] <Laurenceb> people have been discussing emdrive for 3 years
[14:03] <Laurenceb> and no work has been done
[14:03] <eroomde> why not post lots of links to it here to make a change
[14:03] <eroomde> i think that's true of internet fora generally
[14:03] <eroomde> i have zero idea why you spend so much time there
[14:03] <eroomde> it's totally worthless from an snr point of view
[14:03] <Laurenceb> I was hoping for it to be disproved
[14:03] <eroomde> just never visit it again and never bring it up again. if you want my advice.
[14:03] <Laurenceb> and epic foot in mouth moment for all of them
[14:04] <eroomde> you probably don;t want my advice
[14:04] <eroomde> but i give it to you anyway
[14:04] <Laurenceb> but looks like they are too incompetent for even that satisfactory end
[14:04] <eroomde> it's be like a surgeon spending all his time on a homeopathy-for-widows support forum in the hope of, well, i don't know
[14:05] <eroomde> you literally have no reason to waste your time there
[14:05] <Laurenceb> lol ok
[14:05] <Laurenceb> I'll return to matlab...
[14:05] <Laurenceb> inb4 more rage
[14:05] <Laurenceb> I also have a labview project underway /troll
[14:06] <eroomde> at least it's creating
[14:06] <Laurenceb> no - even I have limits, no labview for me
[14:07] <eroomde> i once spent a while on #engineering in the hope that there might be some engineers on it
[14:07] <eroomde> nope
[14:08] <eroomde> just some stupid adhd kids talking about perpetual motion steam turbines
[14:08] <eroomde> got zero help with my glue problem. should have known better.
[14:08] <Laurenceb> heh sounds familiar
[14:09] Action: Laurenceb is spending most of his time resolving massive email flamewars rather than working :(
[14:09] <eroomde> might be a more welcoming venue for re-al-bo-or-gs magnetohydrodynamic balloon space glider
[14:09] <Laurenceb> there really does seem to be a hard limit to the number of active co-authors
[14:09] <eroomde> i'm babysitting the cnc mill
[14:11] <Laurenceb> fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=njM7xlQIjnQ
[14:11] <RealBorg> eroomde, i'm right here
[14:11] <eroomde> don't i know it
[14:17] <RealBorg> eroomde, 1.) it's electroaerodynamics 2.) i mind beeing mentioned in the context of free energy / perpetual motion / ...
[14:18] <eroomde> i apologise, i won't mention you in that context again
[14:19] <eroomde> we both live happily under the tyranny of entropy, comrade
[14:20] <Ian_> . . .
[14:20] <eroomde> what's the package name for the standardish pth crystal can, anyone?
[14:20] <eroomde> something like HC9 but not
[14:21] <adamgreig> hc49?
[14:21] <Laurenceb> HC-49
[14:21] <Laurenceb> slowfingerz
[14:21] <eroomde> thanks
[14:21] <adamgreig> it's on this handy ruler https://www.adafruit.com/product/1554
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[14:22] <eroomde> that _is_ a handy ruler
[14:22] <eroomde> ta
[14:23] <eroomde> that ddr3 bga ram on the back doesn't look so terrifying
[14:24] <eroomde> compared to all the other bga stuff recently
[14:24] <AndyEsser> I presume you can get much smaller crystals than that HC-49 stuff?
[14:24] <Laurenceb> heh ambitious hand soldering practice
[14:24] <AndyEsser> "One PCB to ruler them all"... o dear
[14:25] <eroomde> AndyEsser: yes def
[14:25] <eroomde> look at the 5x3 and 3x2 footprints
[14:25] <eroomde> that's what lots of us normally use
[14:26] <AndyEsser> I read that as
[14:26] <AndyEsser> "that's what lots of normal us use"
[14:26] <eroomde> optimistic around these parts
[14:27] <AndyEsser> 2x1.2mm - that's much better :)
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[14:28] <AndyEsser> although apparently Farnell only stocks 32.768KHz in that size
[14:28] <fab4space> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4V1d882ss&feature=youtu.be
[14:30] <eroomde> unless you're really pushing for compactness, i'd probably stick with 0805 or 0603 and 5x3 crystals for your first smd pcb
[14:31] <eroomde> i've just treated myself to http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mf0w4ffe024kil/resistor-kit-0-25w-1-e24/dp/9342389?ost=9342389&selectedCategoryId=&categoryName=All+Categories&categoryNameResp=All+Categories
[14:31] <eroomde> saves constantly constantly nicking stuff from work
[14:32] <eroomde> AndyEsser: 0805 resistors are nice because they print their value on the part
[14:32] <eroomde> in a way you can read directly
[14:32] <eroomde> helpful when you come back to it months later trying to reverse engineer what you did
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[14:45] <adamgreig> in a way you can almost read directly anyway
[14:45] <adamgreig> a 4k7 resistor is labelled 472 sort of thing
[14:45] <adamgreig> (47 * 10^2)
[14:46] <adamgreig> and a 100nF capacitor is probably like 105 just to mess with you (1*10^5 picofarads)
[14:46] <mattbrejza> 0603 is cryptic though (at least the 1% ones are)
[14:46] <adamgreig> 104 is 100nF actually isn't it
[14:46] <adamgreig> can't remember why that makes sense
[14:47] <mattbrejza> 104 is 100n
[14:47] <adamgreig> right, 10*10^4
[14:47] <adamgreig> duh
[14:47] <eroomde> 0603 has alphanumeric codes
[14:47] <eroomde> for some of the eXX ranges
[14:47] <adamgreig> 0402 is where the real work begins
[14:47] <eroomde> that's why i don't like it, as it's not obviously translateable
[14:47] <AndyEsser> I was going to go for 0805 I think
[14:47] <eroomde> the 0805 stuff on the other hand is just numeric and easy
[14:48] <adamgreig> I finally have a tracking number for my smd test boards eroomde, but alas this means odds of them being delivered in time for the inaugural electronics club meeting is slim to none
[14:48] <eroomde> oh that's annoying
[14:48] <eroomde> oh well
[14:48] <adamgreig> was hoping to get to try out 0201s etc
[14:48] <RealBorg> funny thing i got 104 capacitors today
[14:48] <eroomde> you can show people gerblook or something
[14:48] <eroomde> and whet their appetite for 2nd meeting
[14:48] <mattbrejza> hmm of all the 0603 i have on my desk, most is 471 (470), but this 10K resistor says 01C
[14:48] <adamgreig> i have other scrap pcbs with smd footprints and my reels of 10k 0402s and 0603s
[14:48] <adamgreig> can find something else to do
[14:48] <eroomde> mattbrejza: exactly
[14:49] <eroomde> it's the letters being thrown in there that basically means you need a lookup table
[14:49] <mattbrejza> i have no idea what tolerance these 124 (120K) resistors are though, as they silly farnell label has completely faded
[14:49] <adamgreig> curse those fadey farnell labels
[14:50] <adamgreig> also i dislike the new label style which has a _much_ less prominent farnell part number
[14:50] <craag> +1
[14:50] <adamgreig> has anyone figured out how to popular the "customer part number" field?
[14:50] <mattbrejza> the one with all the barcodes?
[14:50] <adamgreig> populate*
[14:50] <adamgreig> yea mattbrejza
[14:50] <adamgreig> I guess I should just buy a barcode scanner for my assembly stuff
[14:50] <AndyEsser> *sigh* 1.5 hour marketing meeting shortly
[14:50] <eroomde> at the point it which i consider barcode scanners for assembly, i think i shall consider contract manufacture even more
[14:51] <mattbrejza> just made out the order number, was 5% so that makes sense
[14:51] <eroomde> so what's the approximate dirtypcb turnaround time adamgreig?
[14:52] <adamgreig> if you pay for DHL (an extra $15 or so, lol) then usually about 1 week
[14:52] <jonsowman> ive had them in about 2.5 weeks
[14:52] <jonsowman> with cheap shipping
[14:52] <jonsowman> think that's the quickest
[14:52] <adamgreig> s/cheap/free?
[14:52] <jonsowman> yes indeed
[14:52] <adamgreig> the longest I've had with dhl is about 1.5 weeks maybe? it's pretty much always a week
[14:52] <adamgreig> except for this order which is going to be 2.5 weeks :/
[14:52] <mattbrejza> last order was 6 days board house -> shipped
[14:53] <eroomde> rightyho
[14:53] <eroomde> i might try
[14:53] <eroomde> i am spoiled by work
[14:53] <adamgreig> eroomde: so my usual assembly process is, I have a bom table my script generates
[14:53] <eroomde> but i shouldn't keep putting all my personal stuff through work
[14:53] <AndyEsser> heh
[14:53] <adamgreig> and it has supplier number and designator
[14:53] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: it pulls that data out of KiCad?
[14:54] <adamgreig> and you pick up a farnell baggie, find its farnell number on the bom, it tells you "10 of these", then you step through them in pcbnew and place
[14:54] <adamgreig> then mark that off and continue
[14:54] <adamgreig> the barcode scanner could definitely speed up a few steps of that
[14:54] <eroomde> that's my process too
[14:54] <eroomde> i think it's the normal process for pcb assembly
[14:54] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: yea
[14:54] <adamgreig> eroomde: yes I imagine so
[14:54] <eroomde> generate bom, pick random farnell bag, highlight what it is on layout and place
[14:54] <AndyEsser> Cool - might have to poke you about getting that info out of the KiCad files at some point
[14:54] <adamgreig> but the new farnell packaging makes it a bit harder
[14:54] <adamgreig> and a barcode scanner might make it a bit easier
[14:54] <adamgreig> all about automation :P
[14:55] <eroomde> fair enough
[14:55] <eroomde> so long as its you doing it i doubt there's much automation!
[14:55] <mattbrejza> get a pick and place for your new lab thing adamgreig
[14:55] <eroomde> i usually know exactly what the part is (or close enough) by seeing what's insude the bag
[14:55] <AndyEsser> eroomde: just an plain toaster oven type thing for the Reflow Oven?
[14:55] <eroomde> 'ah, that's the chunky input protection diode'
[14:55] <adamgreig> usually i have someone else doing the stuff-out-of-bags and i do the placement which parallelsis quite well
[14:55] <adamgreig> i think like 90% of my time spent placing is placing the 50 different passives
[14:55] <eroomde> adamgreig: i have that too if iain can be persuaded
[14:56] <adamgreig> which is often also OK because as you say you kinda know
[14:56] <eroomde> depends on how much fun he's not having with python
[14:56] <adamgreig> "oh that 1k resistor is for the LEDs, oh that 100n will be all over the shop but especially here and here and here"
[14:56] <adamgreig> I don't tend to put designators or values on my silk which makes it a little slower I guess
[14:56] <eroomde> i just use 'show' in eagle
[14:56] <adamgreig> same (well ctrl-f in kicad)
[14:56] <eroomde> 'show c1 c2 c7 c8 c13 c14 c27 c28'
[14:56] <eroomde> highlights all of them at once which is much quicker for me
[14:57] <adamgreig> but I reckon you could scan the label and have it do the highlight right away, which would save a bunch of time mucking with a bom script and all that
[14:57] <adamgreig> be quite fun anyway
[14:57] <adamgreig> -script
[14:57] <eroomde> that would be fun
[14:58] <AndyEsser> Right - off to meeting
[14:58] <AndyEsser> chat later y'all
[14:58] <adamgreig> digikey have a 'kit' option where for a little money you get a baggie for each -off of your board with just the right parts
[14:58] <eroomde> rs do too
[14:58] <adamgreig> huh, didn't spot that
[14:59] <adamgreig> not tried the digikey one though as it seems to then not give you the bulk discount on each line which is a bit weird
[14:59] <eroomde> rep mentions it every time she calls
[14:59] <adamgreig> in general its shopping cart experience was a bit weird
[14:59] <eroomde> they also (RS) will take a farnell shopping cart and quote against it
[15:00] <adamgreig> cute
[15:00] <adamgreig> I want to extend my current BOM script to support octopart
[15:00] <adamgreig> and then I should be able to generate farnell and RS quickpastes without having to store both part numbers
[15:00] <adamgreig> atm most of the parts in my library have the farnell part on them, which is nice but makes it a bit tedious to swap an order to rs
[15:00] <eroomde> RS accepts farnell part numbers
[15:01] <adamgreig> hah
[15:01] <adamgreig> how?
[15:01] <eroomde> because they're a red-bloodedly competiting with farnell
[15:01] <adamgreig> no I mean, can you just quickpaste them or what?
[15:02] <adamgreig> doesn't look like you can search for them
[15:02] <fab4space> hello all
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[15:02] <eroomde> oh no, doesn't seem to work in quickpaste
[15:02] <eroomde> works in search tho
[15:02] <eroomde> where they have the same thing
[15:03] <eroomde> so for example, '1455122' is farnell's atmega644p
[15:03] <adamgreig> I just tried searching for 2215224 which is the stm32f405vgt6 which they stock
[15:03] <eroomde> (i happened to have that open)
[15:03] <adamgreig> but no results?
[15:03] <eroomde> try it in rs
[15:03] <adamgreig> their search app did them immediately crash
[15:03] <fab4space> what range do you think a 9600bps FSK at 500mW can we have on 2M with LOS
[15:03] <fab4space> with dipole antenna
[15:03] <fab4space> on tx and rx
[15:04] <adamgreig> guess they just don't have everything
[15:04] <eroomde> 300km fab4space
[15:04] <eroomde> adamgreig: no indeed
[15:04] <adamgreig> neat though
[15:04] <adamgreig> but octopart
[15:04] <eroomde> but note you can, if you have a rep, send them a farnell shopping cart
[15:04] <eroomde> and they have a department that manually matches
[15:04] <mattbrejza> fab4space: you have 50x more power but only 32x more throughout than the 'usual' 10mW 300bps
[15:04] <adamgreig> you just need a manufacturer and manufacturer part number, or for R/C you just need a value and footprint and optional tolerance/dielectric/voltage/etc
[15:04] <fab4space> eroomde, really ?
[15:05] <adamgreig> and then it will tell you the farnell number, RS number, everything else number, price, etc
[15:05] <adamgreig> ideal for a bom generating script
[15:05] <eroomde> it depends on lots of things but super roughly, yes fab4space
[15:05] <fab4space> mattbrejza, do you think it is linear?
[15:05] <eroomde> adamgreig: is there an api or do you need to write a scraper?
[15:05] <mattbrejza> in awgn yea
[15:06] <fab4space> ok thanks eroomde
[15:06] <adamgreig> API
[15:06] <eroomde> cool
[15:06] <adamgreig> https://octopart.com/api/home
[15:06] <mattbrejza> youre more likely to hit interfence and stuff like that, so in practice perhaps its not quite that simple
[15:06] <adamgreig> it's entirely unclear to me how they make money - I assume deals with the distributors
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[15:07] <adamgreig> but the API is easy and lovely
[15:07] <adamgreig> hmm
[15:07] <mattbrejza> can you paste it a farnell bom and get it to tell you if you can get the parts cheaper elsewhere?
[15:08] <adamgreig> they do say " If you are using the Octopart API for commercial purposes (i.e. the use of our data is business-related) please contact us at api@octopart.com and tell us more about your work. "
[15:08] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: I guess so? you can give it a normal bom of part numbers and it'l tell you that, I imagine it can probably parse farnell numbers but you might need to script it
[15:09] <mattbrejza> stuff like resistors is probably harder to find alternate parts than 'stm32f4...'
[15:09] <adamgreig> it has a special search tool for R and Cs
[15:09] <adamgreig> you just say a resistance and footprint and optionally tolerance and power rating
[15:09] <mattbrejza> but not inductors :/
[15:09] <adamgreig> inductors tend to be more specialist
[15:10] <adamgreig> wrt footprint anyway
[15:11] <mattbrejza> oh it does
[15:11] <adamgreig> ?
[15:12] <mattbrejza> you can select inducotrs and add filters in teh same way as resistors
[15:12] <eroomde> all i would say though, wearing my small business hat, is that this sort of automation, if done to shave 10% off on prices here and there, is missing the wood for the trees
[15:13] <eroomde> if you want to save more than 10% on your bom you put it all into a farnell cart and then call a human rep and ask for a discount
[15:13] <adamgreig> oh, sure, I'm not so interested in doing it to save a bit of money
[15:13] <adamgreig> just saves tedium when hand assembling a board with a couple hundred passives
[15:13] <eroomde> sure that was for mattbrezja
[15:13] <adamgreig> farnell can't give me a discount on people time
[15:13] <adamgreig> (sadly)
[15:13] <eroomde> 15:07:47 mattbrejza can you paste it a farnell bom and get it to tell you if you can get the parts
[15:13] <eroomde> cheaper elsewhere?
[15:14] <mattbrejza> true
[15:14] <adamgreig> any idea what sort of volume farnell would want before their rep would be interested in talking to you?
[15:14] <eroomde> usually if my cart is over £500 i'd expect to get maybe 20%ish off
[15:15] <eroomde> it's got a lot more than that when it's just passives
[15:15] <eroomde> usually no discounts on test equipment
[15:15] <eroomde> i got about 30% off when it was £2k worth of stuff (before discount) for a batch of dataloggers
[15:15] <eroomde> and that was 30% ontop of all the volume discounts we get anyway
[15:15] <eroomde> same with RS
[15:17] <eroomde> certainly our rs rep says explicitly to give her a call when we have a basket getting towards the £500 mark
[15:18] <adamgreig> good to know
[15:19] <eroomde> doable for a round of min-diameter rocket loggers i'd have thought
[15:19] <adamgreig> yea
[15:20] <adamgreig> probably make a nice difference
[15:20] <eroomde> yep
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[15:20] <eroomde> if you need to make it up with RS it's always worth getting things you Ought To Have but don't, like different kinds of threadlocker
[15:20] <eroomde> for different applications
[15:20] <adamgreig> hah, yea
[15:21] <adamgreig> i recently acquired a big supply of heatshrink
[15:21] <adamgreig> in a whole range of colours and sizes
[15:21] <eroomde> nice
[15:21] <adamgreig> i mean i already had a lot of heatshrink but now I have a _lot_ of heatshrink
[15:21] <RealBorg> china? ;)
[15:21] <eroomde> i need to get some more stuff for the heatshrink printer actually, that reminds me
[15:21] <adamgreig> which heatshrink printer do you have/did you get?
[15:21] <eroomde> one sec
[15:22] <adamgreig> i have the dymo rhino 4200
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[15:25] <eroomde> dymo rhino 6000
[15:25] <adamgreig> fun
[15:25] <eroomde> let's not show AndyEsser this
[15:25] <eroomde> i think his life is getting expensive enough for the moment as it is
[15:26] <adamgreig> hah
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[15:28] <Vooloo> is it possible to see ISS from a HAB?
[15:28] <adamgreig> you can see the ISS from the ground, so...
[15:29] <Vooloo> with binoculars?
[15:29] <eroomde> no
[15:29] <eroomde> with eyes
[15:29] <eroomde> it's the brightest star in the sky when it's overhead
[15:29] <Vooloo> I mean more than a dot
[15:29] <eroomde> say so then
[15:30] <eroomde> you'd need a reasonably telescope to distinguish solar panels and stuff
[15:30] <eroomde> reasonable*
[15:30] <eroomde> although nothing crazy. tracking accurately is the harder problem
[15:30] <Vooloo> so with a HAB under the right conditions, is it possible?
[15:31] <eroomde> if you can put a tracking telescope on your hab, then yes
[15:31] <Vooloo> ah its that far out still
[15:32] <eroomde> it orbits at about 400km
[15:32] <adamgreig> it's at like 400km orbit? 600km? your hab is maybe 30km above the ground
[15:32] <eroomde> balloons go to about 30km
[15:32] <eroomde> going <10% closer is unlikely to make a huge difference is it
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[15:33] <Vooloo> yeah but someone took a shot of venus
[15:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> and you are in 30k in just unser 30minutes before burst
[15:33] <Vooloo> so I figured ISS would be easier
[15:34] <eroomde> i'm not sure how that follows
[15:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0PFX_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0PFX_chase
[15:34] <daveake> venus moves rather more slowly in the sky
[15:34] <daveake> and was still basically a dot
[15:35] <SA6BSS-Mike> there was a hab in central europe last year that got a real goog cloeup video of a swissair plane passing the balloon
[15:35] <daveake> yeah don't try for that
[15:39] <kokey> at least a balloon will get you closer to a jet aircraft than, say, another planet in the solar system
[15:40] <kokey> and a HAB will get you 10% closer to the ISS if you're lucky
[15:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> I have searched for that youtube clip but I can youst not find it
[15:41] <kokey> SA6BSS-Mike: dang, you had me curious there
[15:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RISHTI - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RISHTI
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[16:31] <AndyEsser> well that was a dull meeting
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[16:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[17:02] <eroomde> the worst thing about personal farnell accounts when you're used to work ones
[17:02] <eroomde> surprise vat
[17:03] <AndyEsser> register for VAT and claim it back :)
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[18:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hr_v_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hr_v_chase
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[18:22] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[18:32] <eroomde> namedtuples and type-hinting appearing in this python sort of make me think i really want to be using algebraic datatypes and haskell
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[18:34] <eroomde> well, not proper type hinting, more manually checking that it's the namedtuple type i expect
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[19:07] <adamgreig> eroomde: aww, I was supervising and you beat me to that guy on the mailing list
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[19:19] <richardeoin> yep, excellent mailing list post eroomde
[19:19] <richardeoin> will put '10mW' on the launch announcment in future for clarification
[19:20] <adamgreig> i wouldn't
[19:20] <adamgreig> just specify the frequency as "repeater input channel 1" in future
[19:20] <richardeoin> oh?
[19:20] <richardeoin> haha
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[19:20] <adamgreig> "we are also transmitting all of the CTCSS tones simultaneously so that we can use the national repeater network to help track our payload"
[19:21] <adamgreig> (I don't think repeaters will usually key up if every ctcss tone is present sadly)
[19:22] <richardeoin> I think I used a repeater once
[19:22] <adamgreig> lol
[19:22] <richardeoin> it was a long time ago anyhow
[19:22] <adamgreig> i think I used my amateur licence once
[19:22] <adamgreig> licences
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[19:23] <daveake> I've used mine.
[19:23] <daveake> APRS
[19:23] <richardeoin> the only time I used my license on HF was operating an very popular pile-up at a club event
[19:24] <adamgreig> i mostly use mine for glorified walky-talkies
[19:24] <Vaizki> any chance of this saying what it says on the tin? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221953001309
[19:24] <richardeoin> was a GBxxx station that many people wanted to QSL
[19:24] <adamgreig> but I have operated a station at mach 3 so that's something
[19:24] <adamgreig> probably faster than most airborne mobile people can claim
[19:24] <Vaizki> I assume you were not mach 3, the station was?
[19:24] <adamgreig> or any other type of mobile for that matter
[19:24] <adamgreig> indeed
[19:24] <richardeoin> excellent
[19:24] <Vaizki> was this in the desert.. :)
[19:24] <adamgreig> I didn't operate the mach 3 station for long
[19:25] <adamgreig> it rapidly ceased to be a station
[19:26] <daveake> Did it Tx details of its ailment before ceasing to be?
[19:26] <Vaizki> you said station so many times that Bill & Ted appeared in my brain :(
[19:26] <adamgreig> it was halfway through transmitting "this is fine."
[19:27] <daveake> ah
[19:43] <Vaizki> any comments on the ebay link, it looks like a tunable power supply with current limiting but can it work for that price..
[19:43] <Vaizki> of course I might just get one and test it but if it's a clear no-go just tell me
[19:44] <adamgreig> it probably does what it says
[19:44] <mfa298> Vaizki: probably until you do something not quite as described by the chinglish and the blue smoke is released.
[19:44] <adamgreig> don't expect amazing dynamic performance
[19:44] <adamgreig> but it's basically an eval board for the LTC3780
[19:44] <adamgreig> which you can lookup the datasheet etc
[19:45] <Vaizki> dynamic as in supply going from 30V to 6V with 5A load and the output is not going to be rock solid?
[19:46] <adamgreig> no, as in the load goes from drawing 0A to 5A in a millisecond and the output voltage is unlikely to stay rock solid 10V
[19:46] <Vaizki> ah ok so it's going to probably droop
[19:46] <adamgreig> we say it has poor regulation
[19:46] <Vaizki> I do understand it's not a linear power supply :)
[19:46] <adamgreig> but like it's probably not even that terrible
[19:46] <adamgreig> i wouldn't use it as a replacement for a bench PSU
[19:47] <adamgreig> mainly because it doesn't have builtin current and voltage displays and knobs to adjust votlage and current limit and all that
[19:47] <adamgreig> but it's probably fine as a psu for a project
[19:48] <Vaizki> yes that's my thinking also.. and I have 3 bench PSUs fortunately.. thanks
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[21:26] <eroomde> richardeoin: they're hard work, these hams
[21:27] <Upu> feel free to ask Stuart where in the APRS protocol the country code goes
[21:27] <eroomde> they never seem to think that they might be wrong and so temper there comments before launching in
[21:28] <Upu> if only there was some method in APRS if indicating the location you're transmitting from
[21:28] <eroomde> instead a sort of Pompous Confusion seems to be the modal state of the middle-aged man with a callsign
[21:28] <daveake> if only
[21:28] <eroomde> remind me to shoot my brains out if that ever happens to me
[21:32] <Vaizki> I think that would just make it worse
[21:34] <daveake> at least that would be a clue that he's done it
[21:35] <eroomde> i actually genuinely want this lot to enjoy their repeaters too
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> btw there is news
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> launch permit stage 1 obtained
[21:36] <eroomde> it's important to discus the merits of having a gastric band fitted, especially if it keeps you in the shed rather than doing it to the person sitting next to you on the bus
[21:36] <daveake> which prompts the question ... how many stages?
[21:36] <eroomde> 3yrs worth
[21:40] <Vaizki> eroomde: at least hams in Finland don't do sheds
[21:40] <eroomde> do they do gastric bands?
[21:40] <eroomde> the best driving route to take between hull and suicideville?
[21:40] <Vaizki> I have no idea, at least the VHF repeaters are full of a sorry lot of old babblers :)
[21:40] <eroomde> back pain?
[21:41] <Vaizki> sounds pretty familia
[21:41] <eroomde> how long you can wear one pair of pants before washing them?
[21:41] <Vaizki> +r
[21:41] <Vaizki> how long till they don't bend at the knees any more
[21:41] <eroomde> how deodorant is a conspiracy by pharmacuitical companies?
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> did I again prompt a strange chain reaction?
[21:42] <Vaizki> well there's this one dude who is ranting suicidal 50% of the time I hit the repeater while idle skanning bands
[21:42] <eroomde> no we're talking about the mailing list happenings
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, there is only a second stage remaining
[21:42] <eroomde> you're fine Lunar_Lander
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:42] <eroomde> carry on
[21:42] <Vaizki> oh ok I missed the mailing list part, I thought it was a generit ham rant :)
[21:43] <eroomde> no
[21:43] <eroomde> see the reaction to richard's flight announcement
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> there is a big german electro forum where someone once showed his HAB flight
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> and one person then ranted for days how this person endangered people on motorways
[21:45] <Vaizki> ah yes
[21:45] <Upu> many people have many opinions some are even right
[21:46] <Vaizki> that post begs the question... why was he reading the list in the first place?
[21:47] <Vaizki> or is this type of band-police action normal in the uk?
[21:47] <eroomde> i think there's a sizeable silent ham lurking majority
[21:47] <eroomde> on the mailing list
[21:48] <Upu> once every 12 months we get an angry HAM with the interference to repeaters opinion
[21:48] <eroomde> hams do get a bit territorial
[21:48] <Upu> its actually the reason I stopped selling NTX2's above 434.550Mhz
[21:49] <eroomde> small ponds attract frustrated people who want to be big fish
[21:49] <eroomde> to be fair, amateur usage of spectrum does need to be defended
[21:49] <eroomde> but brain should be engaged before mouth
[21:50] <Vaizki> well it's not like their ponds attract schools of fresh fish ready for awed lectures anymore.. so they feel threatened for a reason. dying breed and all that.
[21:52] <eroomde> i like the extension of the metaphor
[21:52] <eroomde> i wish you could grep within a project with the github web ui
[21:53] <eroomde> voila, i have made an idiot of myself
[21:53] <Vaizki> huh?
[21:53] <eroomde> you can of course set the search to 'this repository'
[21:53] <Vaizki> so noted.
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[22:03] <gonzo_nb> the people who do the mose
[22:03] <gonzo_nb> most to defend the spectrum are the interest groups like the microwave gropup, amsat, batc
[22:04] <gonzo_nb> individual grumpy old men are pretty much ignored
[22:04] <eroomde> yes
[22:04] <eroomde> that's true
[22:05] <eroomde> those are the frontiers of ham radio
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[22:05] <eroomde> hemorrhoids isn't
[22:06] <gonzo_nb> my daughter (has an M6) came with me to a hab talk at a local club (they disolved recently, as they were all just so old, they were dieing off)
[22:07] <gonzo_nb> and she sat at the back playing on her phone. Two old crusties sat near her and started talking about hemmoroids and hospital treatments
[22:07] <gonzo_nb> she was mortified
[22:08] <gonzo_nb> listening to 80mtrs is not far off that. Not a good advert for the hobby
[22:08] <eroomde> life immitates art
[22:08] <eroomde> not that my ranting is art
[22:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hkLo1 after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hkLo1
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[22:11] <Vaizki> well iuni, internet & irc in the 90's killed the ham hobby for at least half the hams I know personally
[22:12] <mfa298> the converse for people complaining about 10mW transmitters interferring with repeaters, is that on the odd occasion of someone actually using those repeaters there more likely to interfere with anyone fairly local trying to listen to a balloon
[22:13] <mfa298> luckily most repeaters dont get that much use.
[22:13] <adamgreig> though i really reckon if you tried you could key up a lot of repeaters with a 10mw tx
[22:13] <gonzo_nb> both services are legal, so it's the fault of whoever bandplanned it
[22:13] <gonzo_nb> be it rsgb or offcom
[22:13] <adamgreig> then use echolink to phone home
[22:13] <gonzo_nb> they are all cttcss aren't they
[22:14] <gonzo_nb> so we are unlikly to pop them
[22:14] <gonzo_nb> podss a weak hetrodyne
[22:14] <adamgreig> deliberately i mean
[22:14] <craag> unless you have an accidental harmonic ;)
[22:14] <adamgreig> or a deliberate one
[22:14] <mfa298> mfsk across the various cctss tones :p
[22:14] <gonzo_nb> you'd have to step through a lot of tones
[22:15] <adamgreig> database is online
[22:15] <craag> wouldn't work as well deliberately I bet :P
[22:15] <gonzo_nb> and step freq as well
[22:15] <dbrooke> the problem with 70cm is that it's secondary use and getting a licence for a frequency for a repeater can take many years so it's not easy to move them away from the ISM band
[22:16] <eroomde> ddos the country with a coordinated series of balloon launches
[22:16] <gonzo_nb> only takes offcom one application session
[22:16] <gonzo_nb> but you could by 446meg hhelds with a low powre 434meg setting. with ctcss
[22:17] <gonzo_nb> buy from maplin, and sit on an ar rptr, legally
[22:17] <gonzo_nb> it wouldn't be dos, just annoying
[22:17] <adamgreig> you can buy 434 handhelds too, all the uv-* baofengs
[22:17] <mfa298> I suspect theres more chance of having issues with repeaters from the LPD radios you can get rather than balloons, still lower power, but fm voice and I suspect may have the option for cctss tones
[22:17] <gonzo_nb> but the lpd ones were legal
[22:18] <gonzo_nb> snap
[22:19] <gonzo_nb> but more repeaters hav lostvtheir site because of interference, real or risked) than have been affected
[22:21] <dbrooke> I remember CI losing its site due to blocking car locks (the site owner's in particular I believe)
[22:22] <eroomde> many a hab payload has done that
[22:23] <eroomde> people also throw it in the boot, leave the radio rig Rxing in the car, and then get embarassed when they arebroadcasting their 90mph drive back home to the internet
[22:23] <dbrooke> yes, I think CI may have been on or near a car park
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, HAB in germany is a two stage permission process since late 2014
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> as was once said on the mailing list
[22:24] <eroomde> 1) ask for permission
[22:24] <eroomde> 2) invade poland anyway
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> ohhh
[22:24] <daveake> don't mention the war :)
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[22:30] <Vaizki> invade poland with balloons?
[22:37] <gonzo_nb> did you get away with it?
[22:38] <gonzo_nb> I've locked my self out of my own car, so couldn't drive to launch
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/358153.pdf
[22:39] <gonzo_nb> had to put the payload under a bicky tin in the garden, unlock the car and run and get the tracker before the immobiliser timed out
[22:41] Action: Vaizki learns a new word, bicky tin
[22:42] <Ian_> Unfortunately two words
[22:43] <Ian_> Is it a biscuit tin if there are no biscuits and a HAB tracker in it?
[22:44] <eroomde> it's a disappointment
[22:44] <gonzo_nb> if a tree falls in a forrest, and no-one isthere to hear it..... Dues it hav a hab trapped at the top?
[22:45] <gonzo_nb> would not matter ed, too full of bacon butties
[22:45] <eroomde> true
[22:49] <Vaizki> second new word :O
[22:49] <Ian_> :)
[22:50] <Vaizki> so what's the difference between a sarnie and a butty?
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[22:51] <AdamDynamic> I'm in the process of investigating how to make a Sense HAT interact with my python program, if I'm using a PITS board is there anything else I need to be aware of?
[22:52] <AdamDynamic> i.e. are certain GPIO pins not available?
[22:54] <Vaizki> maybe this will help, https://github.com/PiInTheSky/pits-hardware/blob/master/Pits-Stacking-System-GPIO-Allocations.pdf
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[23:00] <AdamDynamic> Ah, yes that is helpful, thanks.
[23:01] <AdamDynamic> So if I read the diagram correctly, anything that isn't green is free?
[23:02] <Vaizki> I have never even seen a pits board but the documentation would imply that. there is also https://github.com/PiInTheSky/pits-hardware/blob/master/PiInTheSky-Mainboard-v2.4.pdf
[23:03] <Vaizki> which shows the 40-pin connector bottom left
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[23:06] <AdamDynamic> The second pdf is a little more dense :)
[23:06] <AdamDynamic> Looks like there's some correlation between the non-green pins on the first pdf and pins on the second pdf that don't appear to be connected to anything
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[23:21] <Vaizki> ah the hams regroup
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[23:25] <daveake> Adan
[23:25] <daveake> er
[23:26] <daveake> he left anyway
[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[23:33] <Vaizki> indeed, g'nite&
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[23:35] <fsphil> random interesting link: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/expeditions/expedition30/tryanny.html
[23:37] <fsphil> if the earth had been 50% larger by diameter, chemical rockets wouldn't be able to get to orbit
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[23:38] <mattbrejza> are rocky planets 50% bigger than ours common?
[23:39] <craag> 50% larger by diameter is a lot of extra mass
[23:39] <eroomde> i think practically the limit is lower
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[23:40] <fsphil> there have been a lot of "super earths" discovered recently
[23:41] <fsphil> though they're usually very very hot, so probably no life
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[23:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-58 after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-58
[23:47] <mfa298> that would make it harder to complain about how cold it is.
[23:48] <fsphil> PS-58 getting near 0 deg
[23:59] <Laurenceb_> I'd like to see a pico with a cutdown that saves the envelope
[23:59] <Laurenceb_> no clue how tho...
[00:00] --- Wed Jan 20 2016